Working conditions/pay.

[Mr. Hat]

This has probably been done but I thought I'd give it a go.
I've been around GA for a few years now and have seen and heard all sorts of stories about working conditions and treatment of pilots. Personally I've had some pretty bad and some quite good.

What have you guys/gals experienced?
Do you work 16 hrs a day and get paid only for flying?
Do you only turn up when there is a flight on and then go home?
Do you work for good people?
Days off (mmm what are they...)?
Are you being paid by the award?
Will you be sacked if you start saying "no" to people?

Any stories would be great. I recently heard of Metro drivers (captains) working in Coles to afford a living. On the other hand I know of guys on singles who are doing pretty well.:confused:

[Aussiebert]

I'm working in a well paying job (ie not flying) at the moment which should see my bank account reach a point where i can go work for squat doing something i enjoy and still afford the basics like food and accom.

If your doing something you love then the pay doesn't matter as much

[puff]

Therein lies the reason why pilots will always struggle to make a decent living out of flying when some people are willing to do it for free.

You have paid thousands of dollars for your qualification Aussie, would you work your current non flying job for free, would you be happy if your boss sacked you and told you that someone else offered to do it for free?

[8 8th's Blue]

I must agree Puff,
I have lost hours in the past becuase other people have offered to do it for free. Unfortunately the are alot of people keen for a break ,but whats worse is thamount of people out there willing to exploit that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr. Hat]

Aussie - depending on where you go you might be pleasantly surprised. I never expected to see people being paid properly when I first set out but have been surprised on more than one occasion. There are companies out there doing the right thing. These same companies are also more likely to be doing things by the book in the air.

At the same time though I've seen collegues get paid very little for their efforts. Things are changing though - companies are becoming aware that they are no longer invincible.

8-8ths - did this really happen? There are ways of solving this sort of problem. I'm sure you've got some plan for this individual later on down the track.

Working for under the award is one thing - for free is a totally different ball game.

[126.70]

Good point puff.


8-8ths have you seen "goodfellas" or "casino"? The Sopranos is another great show.

Personally, I wouldn't contemplate working for free. As for those operators stuck in the dark ages - there is a fresh pot of coffee boiling can you smell it?

Luckily I've never had any trouble - all my people have done the right thing. But thats only because people before me have made a stand.

Happy New Year to you all:cool: .

[Gravox]

Yes I have worked long hours, and at times without any RDOs weeks on end, only to be paid weekly, and i'll tell you what, it worked out to be a great hourly wage. LIttle flying, but also a little pay packet. It was my first job, after confronting the boss i got a raise, actually a 50% raise, still that wasn't much, but I had a fully equiped house supplied. I have had other jobs where the pay was ok, but thought I would be fired if I dare say NO, I'm no longer with that shonky operator.

At the moment I am only casual where I am, and am working another job, but at times I have been working 3 jobs to pay debts off and to try and get a head. Tell you what working 70 hour weeks then having to go flying isn't the safest, but it is making ends meet at the moment. But what ever you do, please don't work for free.

[Northern Chique]

Had good and great times, met a lot o fantastic people, got to go to some awesome places and get paid for it, one awkward flight and had to stand up for myself time and overall mostly fun times..... for many starting out its an industry full of inuendo and rife with rumours.

Its was you make it... If want to be paid award.... find an opertor who pays it. If you want to stay safe and fly well kept equipment... find the operator who keeps their planes as such... the penalties for operating outside the law for the benefit of logbook requirements can be fatal.

Individuals set standards... not much use in killing yourself over a bad operator. The "freeby" guys I knew of have bent airframes and fatals to their credit... An operator isnt worth giving up your life for. To use an example.... a pilot would not take a bullet for a bad opertor if someone was standing there with a gun..... why the hell to they still continue to risk "take bullets" by flying outside regulations and the laws of physics at the operators request??

Due to circumstances surrounding a particular event which no doubt most readers are aware of.... i am no longer in the aviation industry.... I still hold a CPL with some ATPL subjects out of the way and will finish that off. At no time was my licence or the ability to hold that licence ever in any doubt, but I miss the flying sometimes.... There are no aircraft to fly where I am these days and it means going for a 5-6 hour drive to find one. (pretty good indication I need to buy one!)

But apart from that, I thoroughly enjoyed being involved..... and you never know what is around the corner!

[ArnhemDog]

Mr. Hat, I smell a rat!

If you really are in the industry you wouldn't need to ask the question, unless you are a journo fishing for a story.

Hmmm

[Rich-Fine-Green]

I may have been lucky but over the many years I have always been paid close enough to what I was supposed to get. Yes sometimes a little under award but sometimes over the award when an operator values your work.

But as N.C. summised - you are free to choose the operator you work for.

NO one can force you to work for a shonk - It's your decision.

8 8ths Blue: I see no difference between those who work for free and those who 'exploit' the 'freebie'. If you have lost hours in the past then I hope you have learnt from that and go work for a decent operator or that you are currently working for a decent operator - they are out there.

I will give you a hint - They are usually the ones who have been around a while and have half decent fleets and have staff who stick around for at least a season or until they are ready for the next jump in their career.

[Mr. Hat]

ArnhemDog - The idea of post was to just get an idea of what other guys and gals are getting paid and what their working conditions are like. I know what its like in my area but don't know much about the flying down south or instructing for that matter.

Just wanted to hear what people had experienced- good or bad. :)

Happy New Year all.

[Aussiebert]

I don't/won't work for free, i don't beleive in doing that

but i do accept that pay in aviation will be low. I work for award rates now and i intend to do so in aviation in the future

[Mile High Society]

I am glad to say that I can report nothing bad about the way I am treated...

I am a casual pilot. I go to work only when I have to fly which I do almost every day for most of the year. I get paid almost everything I am entitled to.

If I decide a flight can not be done, it is my decision and nothing is held against me so long as I can back up with my decision with a mix of common sense, logic and the good old law books.

Anyone who offers to do my job for free or for less gets shown the door and is told to **** off....

It wasnt always this way, when I first started off, some of these conditions did not exist in company for which I still work. Some of the pilots created a good argument and presented it to the CP who quite luckily shared our thoughts and acted upon our suggestions.

Considering some of the rumours/stories I have heard about other companies, I believe that I have one of the best employers in VFR aviation. I sincerely hope that there are many others who share my good fortune. If there is not, perhaps you too could risk taking a stand for what you are not only entitled, but deserve. I believe the money we pay to get trained up added to the amount of responsibilty we shoulder (even in light A/C) earns us the right to every penny we get and more. Should I ever become a CP, it would be a priority to treat anyone as I am being treated now if not better.

If we all work together, perhaps we can alter the treatment of GA pilots although I fear I may be dreaming... Interested to hear your thoughts.

[bigfella5]

Mr Hat, you get good operators and shonky operators and in that regard aviation is no different to any other industry.
If you or anybody else is working for an individual/corporate entity in this field that insists on breaking the rules or not paying at least the award and you're not happy with the situation......confront them/it!
One of two things will happen
A: situation is resolved amicably
B: situation is not resolved amicably..therefore quit!(and report them to Casa!)
I've been in that position and even though it put me out of the industry for a month or two after quitting, I've fallen on my feet and now am working for an operator that toes the line.
It really comes down to personal standards as put forward by the above postings ,as long as you insist in being up to scratch, this line of work can't be beaten.
Thats my 5 bobs' worth

[Ang737]

I have heard and been around aviation for long enough to know that those inconsiderable fools who will work for free will be the death of the aviation industry.

What kind of fool pays upwards of $40K to get their CPL and Instrument Rating only to belittle him/herself by working for free. These people are no better than the scabs that worked during the 1989 strike and should be black banned by the AFAP.

I spoke to one pilot who said he would fly for free, given he was a millionaires son, and I almost throttled him for it. Work for the award and if you don't like the conditions move on but remain loyal where loyalty is given.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Mile High Society]

you tell em Ang, I'll ride shotgun and get the rest with the door. :)

[Mr. Hat]

Can anyone explain to me why some operators fall under an award system yet others are exempt....?

If an operator is exempt does this mean that he/she can just make up any pay system?

How do people get away with not paying the award?

:confused:

[TurboOtter]

:) :) :D
Congratulations to every single pilot that has posted here!!:D :D
Pat yourself on the back.
Never ever work for below the award or for free. That is why trying to earn a buck in aviation is so hard these days, these rich kids get their licence and then fly for free whilst daddy pays the bills!
I have been flying overseas for a while now and believe me, good operators pay good money for good pilots!
(I am not a good pilot!;) )

It's been said before but I'll say it again.
Let's stick together and finally get rid of this attitude that you have to fly for free to get ahead.

Small point, I flew for free once......Then when we got there I drank five times my wages in booze!:cool:

Keep the bucks coming....................

[Ash767]

I am about to embark on my aviation career and start building hours "up north". As sure as the sun comes up in the morning I am not going to fly for free.
I have spent to much time and money on gaining my qualifications as many other pilots have done.

To any pilot that works or is thinking of working for free or accepts bad standards you are only spoiling it for yourself and your learned colleagues.

Thanks Mr Hat for initiating this topic.

Ash767

[Mr. Hat]

My pleasure Ash - its good to here people with the right attitude from the onset.

A while ago a well liked pilot tossed the idea around of coming in for free to "help out" thus possibly shafting other employees and future employees. His comment/good idea was quickly retracted when the boys piped up. Was a nice show of unity amongst pilots- the senior guys led by example.

Important to remember that what you do now will have an effect on the new guys later on down the track. When you get your first job - work damn hard, be honest and lead by example.

To those of you who have made a stand - your efforts have not been forgotten - Thanks.

[the wizard of auz]

I get paid rather well by any standards, I dont get many days off ( only enough to satisfy CAO 48) my boss is an ignorant bastard, I work very hard for my exceptionally good pay in some sometimes very trying conditions. My job isnt the best one around and there isnt much room for advancment without taking a huge pay cut. The aircraft I fly aint all that flash or pretty. I enjoy what I do but wonder how long I am going to stick it out. I could never work for no $$$$ and cant undrstand why people do it. Then again, I am self employed and own the company I work for as well as being the sole pilot. :D

[YMML]

Mr Hat,

All operators are covered by the award. The GA Award (Federal) clearly states that it covers all operators within GA.

It was/is possible for a company to work out an agreement between management/pilots/union but in any case that can't result in a reduction below the award.

Cut 'n pasted straight from the award:

5.1 The award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator.


5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.

Pretty much sums it up...

[Ash767]

YMML

Is there a website where I can view/download the award.

Ash767

[The Gimp]

http://www.osiris.gov.au/html/awards/1/AW792332/top.htm

Fill ya boots guys.

[Ang737]

We have seen a number of valid points being raised and the general consensus is that no body should work for under the award to safe guard GA. I want to hear from some operators out there as to what conditions they offer and if they pay under the award to give a valid explanation for their short comings...

Ang

[exmexican]

Ang,
I doubt any operator will expose themselves in this manner, particularly on this forum.
If they did, it would be the usual stuff.
Not enough profit margin anymore
We invest a lot of money in inexperienced pilots and then they **** off when they're getting useful.
If you don't like it go somewhere else.
Inexperienced pilots create extra maintenance through bad handling.
You're learning how to operate commercially.

Every operator has a different favorite "reason"

[Ang737]

Thanks for that ex. Those are reasons that I haven't heard of before. :cool: :cool:

[Mr. Hat]

Today I was told of a GA operator that pays above the award. Could this be a one and only? Do you guys know of any?

[ITCZ]

Hey guys, if you can be rolled by your 'employer' on wages, then what else will you compromise when push comes to shove?

This is a business for grown ups, not little boys wanting to play with big toys.

If you get rolled on pay, you may as well bend over and take it with flying overloaded, busting duty limits, flying with u/s equipment, busting minima, etc.

Working for under the award or no pay at all :mad: is a form of theft. It is selfish, dishonest and basically says "fark you" to the thousands of guys who stood firm for decent pay.

Worse still, the people who are prepared to cut the corners on pay are the ones who bleat the loudest when they got a couple of thousand hours under their belts and don't think they are getting a professional wage.

A number of guys who did this in the NT in the past few years got a name for themselves. What goes around comes around -- a number of resumes making their way into the 'round file' after the Chief says, hey what do you know about this guy?

Bummer, no turbine job for that boy. Just desserts I say.

Good companies use senior pilots to recruit new pilots. They want people who will stand on the correct principles, not some wishy-washy so and so who buckles under when things get tough.

[the wizard of auz]

Hear, Hear (or here here) ITCZ. Well said, my veiws exactly.

[BongoDriver]

I work in GA for a good company and I get paid (slightly) above the award. However the pay is still below what I would consider as "good" for the type of operation I and my fellow pilots within the company fly. We work max hours in sometimes quite demanding conditions (all within CAO 48) and the pay simply is not enough. I have alot of mates in QF and the like gettin paid up to 4x what I get paid and they do about 1\2 the work.

Now I aint bitching because I am not in an airline yet! I am simply stating that I think most if not all GA pilots are getting ripped off because of an entrenched system of paying $hit. Consider most GA guys are involved in single pilot ME IFR RPT/charter in some sometimes VERY demanding conditions, yet they recieve the so called award wage which in fact is fairly crap, compared to proffesional fields in the same age group.

I guess you cant blame the companies we work for all the time. We have to look at ourselves and try to figure out why we have no decent union, no power and no ability to have our wages increased. Look also to the government that taxes the bejusus out of fuel (and I am a conservative voter) and a regulator that changes it's name every 5 years due to its lack of leadership.

The award is not the be all and end all of GA pay. We ALL deserve more.

[Vjet]

Bongo

It sounds to me like you are one of these piiss and moan type of persons. While you are whinging about better than award pay, spare a thought for all those AN drivers without any pay.

Do your apprenticeship like the rest of us who lived under the port wing in a swag. :(

Wonder what you sound like when you are bitchin !:rolleyes:

[Ash767]

Bongo

With due respect why don't you perhaps give the job to somebody else and then when you do not have a flying job you may then appreciate what you once had!

Ash767

[Ang737]

I tell you what Bongo send me a private msg with your job details and I would be more than happy to take your place...

Ang

[Mr. Hat]

Well its good to see a bit of healthy debate on this topic.

ITCZ - once again, love your work.

My two cents worth - The award ain't a huge amount of money but when I look at other people in the field I consider myself damned lucky.

[Vjet]

ASH 767

In answer to your question regarding "who is bound by the award", the answer to this is only the employers/operators named in Appendix A, each pilot identified in 5.2 and the AFAP.

So have a look at Appendix A and check your company out for listing. If your company is not there then you are covered by the industrial "minimum standards award".

The reason why some employers appear and others do not is because the ones that do have been arbitrated into the award by an AFAP log of claims.

In the late 80's the AFAP dropped log of claims on almost every operator existing and arbitrated them into the award. Unfortunately many operators, once arbitrated simply shut the doors, made redundant the crews that they nolonger wanted or trusted and started again with a different company name and it was business as usual, until that company was arbitrated into the award and so on it went.

To those of you doing it tough now, living on toasted cheese sandwiches and beer, don't whinge and believe me when you feel like giving up,(and you will) keep going and give it one more try.

This is the process (although not perfect) that has sorted the men from the boys since the Wright brothers and is the only guard against the idustry & airlines being over run by Crew with no intestinal fortitude.

Around the camp fire I always get a warm feeling from reflecting on those hard times and it makes me appreciate the very substantial pay cheque I have now. In short I believe I paid my dues and I have earned my position.

You will too! Don't be remembered as a P & M, if you are not happy with your conditions, talk to your management, or otherwise move over and let one of the others in who will appreciate the deal.

Bongo old son we don't want you in airlines piissin and moaning, what will you have to say around the camp fire ? I did it tough on better than the award wage or I flew long hours but less than CAO 48 ........

[toohey]

To all you whiners get off the grass I am a senior GA pilot working 5-6 Days a week driving 200km round trip to work per day for $14000 a year wheres the justice.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[TurboOtter]

I agree with Bongo and Toohey!!

Those An Boys might be out of work but take a look at any industry, cut backs everywhere..
Do you see many if any of those AN boys doing the job Toohey or bongo described?? I think not:(

Aviation is a hard industry to make money, pilot are at the bottom of the line. Casa, Mobil, airports, ATO, etc have their hand out in front of the pilot who is the guy humping the freight, putting his/her life on the line when flying in some **** conditions.

Yes everyone has to pay their dues I agree but how come a apprentice plumber or electrician or even a LAME earns more after completing four years than a pilot?? That's where the injustice is.
And why is it like this, cause the general public think that all pilot earn the same as an airline pilot, so if we were all to get together and try and fix this problem then the public would think we were all just a bunch of P&M's.

Anyway there's my five cents worth.
By the way operators can afford to pay more. My last boss wouldn't even give his pilots a $500 bonus last chrissy, but instead could afford to spend $60,000 on a new 4x4 and another $50,000 on a R.V. :mad: Go figure!

[The_Hun.]

Ang737 its because of ******** like you who are always there to try to udercut everyone else out of a job that our industry pay is so pathetic. Do you see yourself as a proffessional??? obviously not because if you did surely you would expect to get paid proffessional wages?? Go back to flying R.C planes little boy

The pay in this industry is a disgrace and if it wasn't for so many 'dreamers' who are prepared to work for nothing then maybe something would change. What amazes me is there are so many off you out there that seem to think that its ok to be paid sweat shop wages :confused:

[toohey]

You are both legends turbootter and the Hun well said.

[Ang737]

Calm down hun.

Take a look back at the first page of the thread at the bottom and you will realise that I am probably the most against undercutting and working for free there is. The point I was trying to make and which someone of your obvious interlect fail to get was that if you are not happy in a role then leave.

Why would someone beat themself up over a job that they hate and don't go and tell me that its because they have no choice. Your the driver of your career not the money or lack there of. I happen to think that the wages for pilot is extremely poor considering the job we do.

As for the personal insults keep them to yourself until you know were someone is coming from. It was merely a dig at the fact that if Bongo is not happy then move on.... Its all good and no I wouldn't ever consider taking someones job.... ;)

[Sheep Guts]

Work Conditions and Pay

Well this abroad topic if we are thinking globally so Ill confine to Australia first.

Generally in Oz we are paid very poorly.

Used to Fly a C206 for 40 and hour only did around 30 hrs a month so itt was poor and if I didnt have my Dole Check aswell wouldnt of Survived

Then I got job flying C206 for an Aboriginal Corporation whixh was alot better around $29,500 a year before tax. worked very hard loading Freight flying food and supplies. And no one helped you at all:mad: . Probably the best Single Job

Then flew for a Company on Singles and Twins for 3 years moved around alot.different basings, was on casual $35/hr Single $45/hr twin. Then evetually full time on about $30,000 flying Twins IFR aswell.

Then I went overseas to bigger things:

Flew King Airs on contract with a company got pais by the hour for ground and air time seperate rates. Had to help with maintenance, learned heaps about turbines, changing Nozzles and fuel pumps and Starter Generators. Money was USD GreenBacks Tax free it was good saving that for once.

After a taste of that came back to Oz flew Twin Otters. With a Company they paid bare award which was around $44,k .Was supposed to be multi-crew job but flew the airplane single pilot most of the time, 9 pax IFR and 15 Pax VFR. No loaders, no checkin , no ramp staff, had to load/ unload, manifest, plane the pax .deplane the pax, in 10 minute turn arounds ( which was evnetually increased to 20 mins), in 35-40 degrees heat.
After a few months of this I went back overseas to King Airs who wouldnt.

Flew King Airs overseas for another 6 months then got a Airline Job flying Twin Otters USD again, a slight pay drop , still better than Oz pay,but conditions are great.

9 days off rostered, ID90 Travel after 12 months,You sit in the Pilot seat, sign the load sheet thats given to you, crank it and call for afterstart check way cool. ;) :D

So really my best conditions arent in Oz at all. But the countries where you work definitely are different. High Crime, murders, lunatic drivers, its all relative. The only danger of being O/S is the fact you get Type Cast when you return, and its even harder to break back into the Oz market.

Regards
Sheep

[YMML]

Vjet, I think your information is incorrect. While the award does cover all employers identified in the list of respondents, it also includes a more encompassing paragraph. I understand it is part of a "roping- in" clause that effectively stops operators from changing names as you described. The List of Respondents is still included in the appendix.

The information in my last post was honestly cut'n pasted directly from the award. All GA ops except for heli and Ag work are included.

On another note, I personally don't quite get this whole "hard yards" argument. It reminds me of the tradesman asked why he set fire to the apprentice; response- " because it happened to me while I was an apprentice". Is the average intellect of this group actually that low?

I agree that the hardest part of my career was probably the first couple of years. I also agree that a will and determination to endeavour through all the ups and downs is vital... BUT where do we draw the line?

I believe that the value of "hard yards" is overstated and blown out of proportion as an excuse for poor operators to exploit inexperienced pilots...

Rant nearly over

Finally, a "senior GA pilot, working 5-6 days a week, driving 200 kms to work, for $14 000 pa".

Congratulations, your incredible sacrifice is of benefit to more people in GA than you can imagine...:rolleyes:

[Lloyd Braun]

"Type cast" Sheep ?

Pardon the pun but you are showing that you are not really a sheep after all by working o/s.

As to the pay issue, I find myself driven out of the GA pilot market as you really need to be earning at least $45k pa to run a family these days.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Sheep G: I beg to differ just a little.

You were/are much better off O/S but you kind of moved up a rung when you moved abroad.

You need to compare the piston work you were doing in Oz to piston work in say the USA or Canada. rather than the King Air or Twotter.

Having spent a little time in North America on several occasions and at different locations - what I observed was that unless a piston pilot worked for Flight Safety (or similar) - they were generally worse off than Pilots in Australia or N.Z.

Try living in Seattle as an Instructor on US$8 per flight hour.

That's not a justification for local conditions in Oz either.

Generally I saw much more backstabbing & more pilots prepared to work for free than in Oz.

Also, a lot of pilots in North America pay for ICUS or for the priviledge of flying freight.

I would hate to see what it is like now since 09/11.

Sheep G; Enjoy your flying - it's a nice part of the world you're in!.

[Mr. Hat]

YMML - The way I see the "Hard Yards" is a bloke mustering in a 172 in 45 degree heat all day long day in day out. Or the character that sends out 100's of resume's, knocks on 100's of doors & knock back after knock back keeps getting back in his/her car for another 1000km. Or the bloke who takes the 100hr per year job just to break into the industry.

Its all part of the job - I know - and that is what is required.

The dodgy operator exploiting inexperienced young people is not part of the equation.

What is important is to recognise that these "hard yards" people REALLY want it. They are different to the characters who just have the cold hard cash to buy a job wherever. Living at home with mum and dad with no worries for food and money is different to living in Borroloola or Halls Creek swatting the flies.

By all means if you can score a job in a good place take it with both hands and don't let it go.

Thats what I mean when I say "hard yards" :):p .

[Vjet]

Mr HAT

You have hit the nail right on the head. Hard yards mean many different things, to many different Pilots, in many different circumstances.

The one thing they all have in common is a profound determination and an obsessive passion for flying.

When I was deciding what career to pursue I was told, "if you love the work you do, you will never work a day in your life" .

I have followed that advice all my life and as long as I am flying I just love going to work.

There are many Pilots out there that just want to fly for the love of flying, the remuneration comes second... and sadly there are those who only fly for the love of the money and the flying comes second.

My advice to those passionate about aviation is fly and love doing it, the money will follow with experience. Those that love the money, get used to being disappointed because it will never be enough no matter what and flying will always be second.

The worse thing in the world is sitting next to a Pilot for 8 hours listening to him piiss and moan, but it is great listening to someone who loves aviation.. 8 hours seem like 2 and you look forward to flying with them again, and again.

[toohey]

Mr Hat,

Great response I love flying and realise the money is shocking but one thing I can't handle is explotation.
To many of our fellow aviators have made it very difficult for some of us I have been in GA for which seems like ever and at my wits end.
Best of luck to all that give it a good go it is a great experience.

[notrouble]

The comments made here would be more interesting if age, experience and time in the industry were also included in the posting, just a thought.

[Sheep Guts]

Why notrouble are you only interested in experience comensurate with age. I hate that line when I see it in an add, it gets right up my nose.:rolleyes:

[notrouble]

Hey sheepy I wasn't having a go in respect of employment. It was about comments made by people who may have been in the industry for ten minutes and the s*** their willing to put up with to get ahead. I was wondering if in 10-15 years time they would think the same way and make the same comments. This is the reason why I was interested in their age, exprience and time in the industry in relation to their posting.

[Mr. Hat]

Notrouble - I see your point. I'm not a NEW-newbie but lets say that I've had a few jobs and flown a few planes- I'm having a go. I have followed your posts on the other forum and can understand that you have had enough.

Look - you have had some very bad luck and I am not going to try to convince you that this industry is a great set up. For some its really bad for some not. I have mates that have continually been in the right place at the right time and have progressed throught the industry without even knowing the half of it. To them its all good. For me, I've had to make each job happen. At the moment I find that its going ok. I'm paid by the award and I have a few prospects on the horizon. What I find is that these days I am loving the acual act of flying more than ever.

Another thing I can tell you is that when I first started out and the money/flying was "intermittent" I was enjoying myself less - was always worrying about how I was going to pay bills buy food ect (you know the drill). What did I do? Just hung in there- in the end it worked itself out. I'm also lucky that I have a strong network of people that encourage me in what I'm doing - which I personally think is crucial.

From what I've seen from your posts - you've had a go. 10 -15 yrs in the industry in your 40's now and assuming wife/kids - sure enoughs enough and nobody will tell you otherwise. The point is when someone asks you what happenend? You can stand pround and say - "hey I had a go". If my day comes, I'm 40 (nothing wrong with being 40 either :) ) and still living like a gypsy I too will say "thats it..enough!". I will probably fly recreationally from that point. I will be able to say "I had a go"..and thats what I'm doing now.

Thats my $1.50's worth - and good luck to you all :) .

[BongoDriver]

Thanks fot the support out there guys.

To those that want my job - You can go the "hard yards" or whatever you are banging on about JUST LIKE I DID!

I am happy at my company and happy with my job. This doesnt change the fact I think GA drivers like myself should be paid more. I am sure when your there you will think the same.

To the airline pilots that flamed me - I appologise for my lack of compasion in regards to the Ansett situation.

However it is true that I havent seen many applications from ex AN drivers at my company. (not 1)

Again - I am not whinging, I am stating my opinion,which after all is what this forum is for.

[the wizard of auz]

I dont understand why people seem to think being paid sh!t money in GA is allright, It isn't. What about the guys n gals that are out there trying to make a career out of GA and have no ambition to fly the big iron?, are they expected to accept that you will have to live on a measley $24000 pa because they decided to make a career out of flying lightys doing freight or charter or airwork?. I decided early in my career that airline flying wasnt for me and if I was going to keep flying I was going to have to do something drastic, what with having mouths to feed and a mortgage to pay, sop I went off and started a small airwork business.......doing what most people call the hard yards or apprentice work.....and am doing quite well, and have been since I started five years ago. I believe that not being payed what your worth simply helps the system that exists in this industry and keeps it from making a decent dollar. If it comes down to the operator not being able to afford to pay you any more than they do, they aint charging enough. I have found that people will pay whatever it costs to do the job....sure I have had opposition slide in under me and do the job cheaper, but then it all gets real when they cant pay for the last 100hrly or put a new engine in when required or gaurentee a reliable aircraft due to shonky maintanance, and then the work comes back to me whilst the others go broke or develope a bad name for inconsistancy.
Part of ones business plan should be developing your picing structure to accomadate all your costs and a bit for your profit margins, If you dont do it that way your just gunna go broke....simple. all said and done, if you cant pay your pilots what they are worth (and I mean by that, what one would expect a professional to be paid, after a certain investment in time/money and gaining the required qualifacations) your business is either to small to be thinking of another pilot or your slowly but surely going broke.
I still do a bit of casual flying around the traps when my work slows down, and I wont work for less than $50per flying hour and $35 per ground hour...I reckon thats what I'm worth and wont work for less....they either pay or I dont work for em, simple. I have foxtel and am quite happy sitting at home watching that instead of slowly going broke whilst working my bum off and waching the operator make a good dollar, but not factoring in my wage in their price structure. and I have noticed that some of those that went for a cheaper pilot are either not in the industry any more or are being close to having aircraft that people wont get into cause they look shonky or have a bad name in the industry. people that have paid what I have asked for and were happy to employ me are going strong in nice aircraft and have a good reputation in the industry for their standards (well..most of them anyway).
Although this is all a small part of the problem with this industry, is is a part of the reason it stays as it does.
I have reasoned that if I cant make a living in aviation, it will make a nice hobby, because thats all it is if you cant make a quid out of it.

[Mr. Hat]

wizard - The operators see that the majority of pilots are there for a short period and then move on. Therefore they think "why pay more... I could spend that money on a house extension..".

Not many pilots consider GA as a career even if they do like it. Just as you said - wife/kids/house on a GA wage ?...yeah right!

One day I would like to have a family and a house (have a long way to go..no girlfriend:D ) but wouldn't even consider that on my money mate.

[Skypark]

Well said Wiz.

Ok then, can we go as far as naming the operators who don't pay award/treat pilots like rubbish? I would be interested to know, as a lot of ppruners would I'm sure. New CPL's to the industry will go anywhere, but if there is some guidance as to which operators to avoid it would be both beneficial to the individual, and the industry.

Any names?

SP

[caampeeee!]

Skypark,

Not even lawyers in court can go as far to name the dodgy operators for the fear of litigation.

[ITCZ]

Just to clear something up -- I remember posting something similar a couple of years ago on this forum

There are two types of Awards, State and Federal.

A State Award, like the South Australian shop assistants and retail award, is binding on all Employers and Employees that do that type of work in that state. If you sell stuff in a shop in SA, you are entitled to that award pay, whoever your employer is and regardless of union membership

A Federal Award is only binding upon the Parties to that Award.

The GA Pilots award, being a Federal award, is binding on those named as respondents. This includes

Named Employers
Members of the Union named in the Award


So that union members are not discriminated against (in principle) where a federal award applies to a workplace, if one employee is a member of the respondent union (in this case the AFAP) then every pilot employee in that organisation is entitled to GA Pilot Award conditions.

So if your employer is not named in the list of respondents, the solution is simple. Join the AFAP. Now you are a respondent to the Award. Then you have a choice:

Tell your boss that you are now an AFAP member and that you would like to be paid as per the relevant GA award classification, or
Tell no-one, not even your mum, that you are a union member, and keep your pay sheets and logbook (overnights;))


Then, when you leave, give Simon or Laurie a call at South Melbourne and have them pursue a claim against your former employer.

I used to love coming into the *** office after a night run and see yet another $30,000 to $45,000 backpay claim waiting in the fax tray! Usually from a guy who had done 2-3 years with the company!

I reckon I sawor heard of fifteen of these claims in my last job. All of them were eventually paid. Because it was the LAW and it was rock solid. And the guys who did it had excellent representation -- for the cost of $85 per quarter union fees.

That employer has finally negotiated a general above-award agreement because they kept losing in court!

And nobody got fired, and nobody got a name as a 'troublemaker.'

If dress shop owner can see the sense in always paying their award to a shop girl, why not an aviation company.

The silliest thing is that all these rough tough pilots have some of the STRONGEST and most easily enforceable laws in the country after taxation law ON THEIR SIDE, yet, look how many people we have on this forum complaining that they don't even get Award.

The only people who should be on $14,000 are part timers and MAF drivers.

[puff]

ITCZ too true....there seems to be this attitude of thats the way it is we can't change, we have no choice but to accept it. A friend of mine was involved in paradropping where he was getting paid, he negotiated with the operator for a better pay rate, eventually said operator then just 'employed' others who were willing to do it for free, on research he then finds that his old operator who used to pay no longer bothers because they had so many pilots willing to do it for nothing.

I hate to put all of them into the same basket but most of these people who do it for nothing are all the same, they are all products of the bigger flying schools, their parents have paid for all their flying training and they'll do whatever it takes to get their hours up, money doesn't matter because their parents still fund their lives!

If all paradrop pilots refused to fly unless they were paid say a set rate of $20 a drop, and no one did it for free the operators would be forced to either pay it, or close. But we all realise why current paradrop pilots wouldn't do this, is because they know there are heaps of guys out there that will...therein lies the problem!! Why should they NOT pay the pilot the instructor doesn't do it for free..and did the instructor spend the best part of $40K for the ability to do the job? I'm just using para drops as an example, instructing and all area's of GA are pretty much the same....why would someone be unwilling to operate a checkout in a city for $14,000 a year yet it's ok to get that flying a 206 in a outback area?

Aviation to me is an amazing industry, in one way it's an amazingly close nit community that sticks together and helps each other in times of crisis, the thread in Misc about the pilot who had the accident is a perfect example, the compassion for the loss of a fellow pilot in an accident is another.....then on the other side it's the most back stabbing industry you've ever seen....I hate to sound like Mr Union but unless pilots in general stand up a bit more for themself, and have the support of fellow pilots where are we heading? Paying operators to fly their a/c?

[Vjet]

ITCZ

What you say with regard to the Federal Award respondents is spot on the money.

With regards to the notion of joining the AFAP and attempting to use this as an entrapment upon the employer, this has been tried before, with a lot less success than you give the impression of.

Before all you young fellows run off buying diaries and note books, first examine your circumstances. If you have entered into an agreement/contract with an employer (and this can be the shake of the hand) then you are party to a deal and have responsibilities and obligations as well as rights under that agreement.

When that deal is commensurate with the principals of the award, others have found it to be legal and binding on both sides, employer and employee.

About 9 years ago a young fellow was forced to sell his flat and pay compensation to his employer for breach of his employment contract.

Dont be a gutless wonder or one with no moral fibre.... Be up front, let your word be your bond.

If you are not happy with the pay or conditions, then talk to your employer, have some courage and say what you mean and mean what you say.

If the conditions and pay do not improve then examine your options, get legal advice specific to your circumstances then either litigate or vote with your feet and leave. WHAT EVER YOU DO DON'T PIISS & MOAN.

The trouble these days is that too many young fellows take on so much financial committment and expect to support a family, mrs, kids and mortgage on a GA salary commensurate with flying say a Cessna 402 or Beech Baron....

Don't set yourself up for a fall, think smart.

[Mr. Hat]

Puff paying the operator? Its already happening believe it or not. I heard about it a few years ago when I first got my licence - needless to say I never even bothered with the losers. Turns out their machines are so crap that they struggle to find people that will maintain them. I opted to go get a real job where they pay you and you get to say "no" to them when they try to pull something dodgy.

Newbies, practice this word in front of the mirror "NO". Another good one to practice is "You've got to be joking".

If everyone that got a CPL joined the AFAP would it make a difference?

The problem is that when someone is new on a job they are usually trying to make a good impression and not rock the boat too much. If you rock up and start having chats with the directors about pay and you are new you will suddenly find yourself packing your bags. The law for pay/flying needs to be enforced, yes by the employees but also by a regulator that does spot checks.

Scenario : "So Bloggs did 30hrs this month and into his bank account went..... mmm $200..."
The regulator then removes the certificates from the wall, turns the lights off and locks the front door.

The most worrying thing about Captain bloggs is
A) his/her selfesteem and B) his/her motivation.

Do you think Bloggs feels like jumping into the books to improove his/her knowledge after all this? ANSWER - NO

[ITCZ]

Vjet,

Yes, it is far, far better to be up front with your boss and sort problems out 'man to man' as it were.

I did my IFR with Richard Higgins (now president of AFAP) and he once remarked that a lot of bad blood would be avoided if pilots just brought it up their concerns with their employers in a reasonable fashion, before any problems arose.

However, it is tough (as has been pointed out) for a new recruit to start asking for full conditions shortly after being 'checked out.'

This is where the senior guys in any outfit have to shoulder a bit of responsibility and raise the issue on behalf of all.

The longer serving employees will have a better relationship with the boss and be on more of an even footing.

Unfortunately, in GA a lot of these guys say, stuff it, I am almost out of here and if I had to put up with it, so can you. Cop out, basically.

Re yours, Vjet: "If you have entered into an agreement/contract with an employer (and this can be the shake of the hand)...

In a sense, yes. The first thing a State industrial regulator or an AFAP rep will ask you when you call about underpayment of wages is "Have you signed anything?"

If you have, it may make proceedings very muddy. This is to check how difficult it will be to clear things up. A handshake, unfortunately, will mean nothing.

(The law on record, award/awa/cert agreement, etc, is written down. If the new 'handshake' agreement was important enough to rely on and displace the extant law, then why did the parties not take time to write it down? That will be the assumption when a court starts to look at it).

The basic principal of industrial law that applies is....

You cannot contract out of an industrial award

.... unless it is to another industrial contract like an EBA, AWA, or Certified Agreement. If the person was hired to primarily be a pilot, and the primary function is to fly aeroplanes, and either the employer or employee is a respondant, then it will be very difficult FOR THE EMPLOYER to prove that another agreement applies unless it is a properly constructed legal instrument.

Again, I don't want to be the AFAP's loudest barracker, but all this stuff is taken out of your hands and dealt with by some of the best Industrial Relations practitioners in the country if you are a member.

Burden of proof is on the Employer to show that they have followed all the rules. Pilot simply shows logbook and duty sheets to prove that they worked at Employers direction.

It is too easy. It is probably the simplest legal problem that any of us would have to solve in our private and business lives.

However, I do concede that it is best to be up front and simply ask for your entitlement. If you don't get it, rest easy. I HAVE seen that many successful claims against one particular aviation employer.

Flintstone, where are you? Back me up here!

Mr Hat,

Unfortunately the CASA rep in your scenario (30hrs not equal to $200 pay) although smelling a serious rat, would probably be able to do nothing on that basis.

The recent studies into revision of CAO 48 limits and possible introduction of fatigue management programs has AirServices and CASA stating that there is an industrial side of the equation to consider, but it is outside their purview to do so.

Too hard basically. Flight and Duty times are rostering and working hours issues. It doesn't get any more industrial than that. Yet CASA and AsA have said 'We're not touching that one.'

Cop out (see above).

The hypothetical FOI would love his/her regs and orders and processes to have the same power that industrial law has in Oz. Unfortunately, you only have to read the pages in this forum to see how toothless CASA really is when it comes to prosecuting breaches and suspending AoC's.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

What If:

Tomorrow, a 'regulator' suddenly puts pressure on all operators at exactly the same time to pay what they are supposed to.

e.g. - Make it a level playing field for all operators and pilots.

* What do you think would happen to the industry?.

* Would the industry be priced out of existance (Grade 1 Instructor rates become $100 per hour, higher charter rates)?.

* Would there be less operators, jobs & oppotunities for all (e.g. foriegn students choosing N.Z instead due to lower rates)?

* As a result, would this create a larger group of desperate/unemployed pilots who will go to greater lengths to secretly work for free and backstab others?

* Would this force some operators to cut back in other areas instead - like maintenance?

* Would this force a lot of Young pilots out of the industry due to less jobs overall and therefore by "Natural Selection" bring stability to the job market (e.g. Jobs Available = Pilots Avialable).

* Or would it have Nil effect on the industry overall & bring some stability?



Comments from Oldies & Newbies would be interesting.



BTW: I write this as I have just read two emails rec. over the weekend.

1. Offer to work - 'Pay is not important'....
2. Offer to work off the cost of IRC & IFR at no pay from 155 hour CPL.

[YMML]

I'm still not too sure about who is bound by the award and who isn't. I am aware of the List or Respondents included in the appendix to the GA Award. However, from the award...

5. WHERE AND WHO THE AWARD COVERS

5.1 The award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator.


5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.


6. WHO IS BOUND BY THIS AWARD?

The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2 , and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.


I may be mistaken but I interpret this to include everyone?

:confused:

ITCZ perhaps you can help me on this one...

Mr Hat: I'm happy with your version of hard yards. I just find it hard to accept when it includes non-legal ops or below award conditions.

After reading the above over and over....

Does that maybe mean that all Pilots are bound by the award but only the operators identified in Appendix A?

If so what on earth does that achieve?

No idea how I passed ATPL Air Law first go....:D :D :D

[Mr. Hat]

ITCZ - The regulator I was talking about in the Mr. Bloggs scenario would be a body (govt or private) that looks into working conditions. Not suggesting CASA have anything to do with this one.


Closing shop was probably a bit harsh of me....must have needed a coffee at the time. Perhaps a fine?

:rolleyes:

[ITCZ]

YMML -

The interpretation of 5.2 will be made within the normal interpretations of respondency applying to the Federal industrial relations system.

That is, the whole method of operation of the Federal systems being dispute resolution.

The Federal IRC was set up to resolve disputes between employers and employees, to make rulings and to be able to enforce those rulings.

This means that the a president ('judge') of the IRC cannot look at a situation and say "You, employer, should pay Bloggs $1000 per week" or "You, employer, are being very nasty to Bloggs."

The IRC can only wait until two parties disagree. Somebody has to pick a fight, or make a complaint that the rules made to resolve the last dispute are not being followed. And the person picking the fight or making the complaint can only be someone who is party to the agreement.

As a working pilot, you become a party to the Award when you join the employee association named (AFAP). You effectively say "I stand with this group of men and women."

As an anti-discrimination measure, it is law that if one employee in a workplace is entitled to GA Pilot Award conditions, then all pilot employees are so entitled.

So you don't have to be a member if your colleague Captain Jones is an AFAP member and is happy to say so.

The 'other persons' being non-AFAP pilots, will come under the award by second-hand means, either by their employers being named, or one of their co-workers being an AFAP member.

Any more info than that -- its gets into legalese. May I recommend the Personnel and Industrial Relations course at the University of SA! ;)

[aero979]

I know what it is like to be in a dispute with an employer over pay, and after contacting workplace relations, there is nothing they can do unless the employer has been stated in the award.

It took me six months, and a lot of phone calls, and finally I received my final pay cheque. Money that was owing to me, though my ex employer thought otherwise.

I wish that there was a body that people like this could be reported to... I am angry, as now I can't stand thinking about that fact that he will do this again ... to someone else who was in my shoes...

[Vjet]

Out of interest I contacted a very helpful guy named John at the IRC in relation to the various interpretations of the award.

He advised that unless the employer is a listed respondent mentioned in Appendix A of the award, they are not bound by it.

John thought that the AFAP must be looking for new membership because a lot of Pilots have obviously been considering joining on the strength of this advice, I have given him the PPRUNE web address.

Apparently he has spent the last 3 days talking to Pilots and Operators who have read this post. (The forum really works)

John also said that if an employer is not a respondent then private agreements/contracts are perfectly legal, so long as the pay rate and conditions are not less than the minimum standards award.

If your employer is a respondent to the award already and isn't paying the award rate then an AFAP member can do as ITCZ has said in previous posts.... I think this is where the big back pay claims come from and some of the confusion. If the employer is a respondent it does not matter if the employee's are members of the AFAP or not, the award rates and conditions must be paid.

Thanks John.

[YMML]

Thanks... I think that helped.....:confused: :confused: :confused:


What I do know for sure is that the present problem I am involved in remains unaffected. I'm a member of AFAP and my employer is on the List of Respondents. Thank gosh for that!

Just to clarify, does that then mean that if your employer is not on the List of Respondents you only need to be paid the national minimum wage ( NON aviation related) ?

Mr Hat, with regard to A regulator doing spot checks; what do you think of this scenario?

1. Employees of all companies ( that are Respondents) being paid below the award seek appropriate pay through the Government agencies that already exist...
2. I believe when a new operator applies for an AOC they need to present a business plan. Why not include becoming a respondent to the award as part of this process?
3. The AFAP (for example) round up the rest of the dodgies that slipped through the gap in the middle?

Finally, If any of you are being paid less than the award by a Listed company; Don't whinge here... You know what you need to do!

[Vjet]

YMML

Yes, if your employer is not a respondent then the Minimum Standards award is for you.

If your employer is a respondent to the award and you are in the AFAP, then all you need do is report the matter to the AFAP.. who will take the appropriate action on your behalf.

Once again thanks John.

Prior to accepting a position with a company it is always a good idea to check the pay scales against the award, and whether the prospective employer is a respondent to the award.

If they are not a respondent then this is the ideal opportunity to negotiate your salary BEFORE you start! Be up front and if the deal is no good, DON'T TAKE IT !

[ITCZ]

Vjet...

Out of interest I contacted a very helpful guy named John at the IRC in relation to the various interpretations of the award.

He advised that unless the employer is a listed respondent mentioned in Appendix A of the award, they are not bound by it.

Maybe "John" was a normal public servant staffer, not a paralegal or otherwise trained industrial officer. It is an "OR" situation, not an "AND" situation.

Trust me. This was a question in a B/Bus Industrial Law tutorial back in 1987. I can still remember lecturer "Bill", a former commissioner (=judge) of the federal IR court, turning blue and spitting fire when nobody answered it correctly! You don't forget those lessons!

IF
the employer is named,
OR
if the employee
OR
one of the employees colleagues is an AFAP member,
THEN
GA Award conditions apply.

Full Stop.

To remove any doubt, the union will probably serve a "Log of Claims" on the employer.

aero979....

after contacting workplace relations, there is nothing they can do unless the employer has been stated in the award.

It took me six months, and a lot of phone calls, and finally I received my final pay cheque.

One of the superb pieces of strategic IR by the Howard and Reith de-levelling of the employment playing field was the introduction of AWA's and the Office of the Employment Advocate (OAE) as a parallel IR system.

The OAE was set up and staffed by NONE of the recognised IR professionals and practitioners. I think one staffer was with the War Memorial previously. It is full of public servants, naive to established Industrial law and procedure, precisely to break up as much organised labour as possible.

Contacting the 'workplace relations' people would have been as helpful as calling your grannie in Kempsey.

Sounds like you had a bad situation, and I empathise, aero979, I have been there myself, but you would have had your money inside a month if you had been an AFAP member.

Next time call the Union, the Trades and Labour council in your state, or the Industrial Relations Commission.

Please note -- I dont want to set myself up as the AFAP's best buddy. Its just that all this stuff is like hearing the Yank PPL's arguing for days and days over 'turning downwind' and stalling.

The truth is out there!!

[Mr. Hat]

Howard and Reith, now aren't they nice people to do something like that ;) .

How much does it cost to be an AFAP member and where do you get the info...is there a website?

Will it limit your employment opportunities if you become a member? Sounds like a silly question I know..just thouhgt I'd ask.
I mean could an employer say "oh we don't want your kind sonny".

Heard also that they cover you if you hurt yourself and lose your medical... any thruth in that one?

AFAP aren't exactly working hard to get well known really are they? I mean I had only really heard of them once I was working and even then have not seen any material on them. Is this because they are a very small group....?

[Mango3]

Query: What would a pilot, who is responsible for Checking & Training on a turbo prop earn per annum in Oz? I refer here to an aircraft of around 6 Tonne MTOW that carries pax & freight on RPT runs. Anything close to $70,000?