Re: Loss of R/T Procedures

[cb9002]

Could an ATCO or pilot answer two questions? Sorry if they're stupid. They're to do with the topic "No need for R/T at Heathrow ?" (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75893).

1. What's the difference between VMC and VFR or IMC and IFR?

2. The procedures seem to state that an aircraft experiencing total R/T failure should continue on a flight as planned. What would happen if such a failure occured shortly after departure on a LHR-JFK route? I can see some, errm, eyebrows being raised by the military if this were to happen!

[Intruder]

"R" stands for "rules"; and "MC" stands for "meteorological conditions."

When in VMC, you can legally fly under VFR or IFR. When in IMC, you can legally fly only under IFR.

In the LHR-JFK example, it is unlikely that the airplane (a commercial airliner assumed) could fly under VFR (below 18,000') to JFK. If in VMC, a VFR return to LHR would be smarter.

[Just More Crap]

Hello,

IFR - Instrument Flight Rules
VFR - Visual Flight Rules

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions
VMC - Visual Meteorological Conditions

As for the second question, I don't know...you need clearence you cross the atlantic so they know where you are (roughly). So I would go VFR to a suitable alternate!

[FlyingForFun]

I haven't read the thread you're refering to (going to read it shortly), so sorry if my answer doesn't make sense in context... but why would eyebrows be raised by the flight continuing as planned? If the flight plan says LHR-JFK, and the aircraft experiences a radio failure, then as soon as ATC realise there's been a failure (either because the aircraft fails to respond to them, or because the pilot selects the code for radio failure (7600) on his transponder), they'll expect the flight to continue as per the flight plan. To do anything else might "raise eyebrows", I'd have thought.

FFF
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[foghorn]

On the transatlantic example, I seem to remember that, certainly in the UK, Oceanic clearances are obtained on the radio after departure, so obviously an aircraft suffering from radio failure would lack the necessary clearance to enter Oceanic airspace and have to divert to an airfield on this side of the pond.

Maybe a longhaul driver can confirm?

[Guido]

Following the events in New York the military would indeed be very interested in a non-RT aircraft continuing (how many terrorists are familiar with transponder settings??????, we've just given them one here!). The Ukmil would be fine once they’ve positively established the intentions but the Americans would certainly be a little more anxious if not Gungho!
Regarding North Atlantic Clearances, they can be obtained on the ground (Prestwick) and by data link so it is possible that a non-RT flight could conceivably cross the pond.
However, given the vagaries of the Eastern Seaboard weather at this time of year and the heightened security procedures I would definitely call a captain’s decision to continue into doubt, after he gets out of an American jail if their military haven’t shot him down.

[cb9002]

Guido, I believe terrorists can be aware of transponders - the 9/11 guys turned them off. Plus, its not exactly difficult to get the information. All the ATC books I borrowed from the library have the SSR squawks in.

So the question now seems: if the pilot was to return to LHR, by VFR or IFR, how would he know which path to take back without causing too many airproxes, and how would the controller know what was going on? I get the impression that the London TMA and LHR approach are kinda busy!

[Johnman]

I recommend reading the North Atlantic MNPSA Operational Manual as it covers Communication failure prior to entering NAT Region and after . And regarding procedures for specific airports you can refer to the emergency section of any AIP or Jeppesen .

[Check 6]

MNPS regulations apply (See Edition 9 of the 'North Atlantic MNPS Airspace Operations Manual'). (http://www.nat-pco.org/mnpsa.htm) If the failure occured prior to entering Oceanic Airspace (OCA), the aircraft would have to return to an airport per the regulations of the country where the failure occured.

So, if the failure occured within the UK, then UK regulations would apply as to what to do after a radio failure.

Continuation of an Oceanic crossing would be prohibited in this case.

;)