Flying the Bac-111

[Lavdumperer]

I realize that EAAC (European Air Charter) recently stopped flying scheduled/charter flights using the venerable BAC-111. Yes, it's noisy and inefficient, but it's a shame to see the aircraft go. I have flown as a passenger many times during my life and I loved the sensation of speed. Questions for current (probably a few) and former BAC-111 pilots out there:

1. Best and worst features of flying the aircraft

2. How did it compare to what you CURRENTLY fly?

3. Are any BAC-111s still flying (hush-kitted) in the UK or Europe - where are they based?


Happy holidays!

[ETOPS]

I flew the BAC 1-11 from April '87 to Dec '90 with British Airways. The version we used was the 510ED or "Super" as BA called it.
Two good features were 1) solid build quality. The aircraft appeared to have been milled from a solid block and could stand a lot of punishment.
2) Man sized speedbrakes. Below 15000 ft you could pull full speedbrake and both go down and slow down. My party-piece was 330kts clean to less than 10 miles and still be stable for a landing around 800'.

Worst features - cockpit ergonomics and that air system!!!

But we loved em........

[HZ123]

Couple at SEN two of which appear to be past flying 5N-HHH been parked for about 3 years and an ex BWorld 9L-???. However of intrest is a dark green VP-??? which has only arrived there 3-4 months ago. Perhaps someone can comment. RGds

[flufdriver]

flew the 500 model (wet) from 79 until 83.

As others have said, built like a tank, used to hate 727s and DC-9s passing us. Loved the instant spool-up but it could have used a little more power on hot days.

We used to operate them from GCM to IAH, MIA, TPA, KIN etc. did the training in a 400 SIM at Allegheny/US Air in PIT

[Sheep Guts]

Theres still one operating in Gauatemala, flies between Gauatemala City and Tikal where the Mayan Ruins are. Nice old beast I thought.

[sharpshot]

There's a Rombac 1-11 flying from Larnaca - 5B registered. Mainly flying to CIS countries. I'd rather go on that than the TU-134's plying similar routes:D

[Guido]

The Oman Air Force operates a fleet of about 8 compromising 3 or 4 supers and the rest basic. You can see them every now and then at Southampton.

[broadreach]

Then can someone tell me what that "T" shaped thingy stowed in a side pocket by the pilot was called? Going back a few years, the drill used to be:

1) Whine, whine, whine..... bumffft... Lots of jet fuel vapour out the back, nothing more. Bloke with fire extinguisher takes a pace back, slowly so nobody will notice.

2) Whine, whine, whine..... bumffft... Lots more jet fuel vapour out the back.. Bloke with fire extinguisher takes two paces back, small ones, casual like.

3) Whine, whine, whine..... bumfttkerbaAM!_WHOOMP _RED _FIREBALL _ENGULFS_ T-TAIL. Guy with fire extinguisher suddenly opposite side of apron but trying to look as if he's running toward the aircraft, not away. Difficult because he's left the fire extinguisher under the fireball.

4) Silence. Arched eyebrows and :eek: expressions visible in the windows furthest aft.

5) Door opens. Captain calls for a stairway and a stepladder. Guy with fire extinguisher has been here before - he's already lugging a three-foot high wooden stepladder over to No.1.

6) Captain climbs stepladder complaining about the height (he's 5'8" and has to stretch), opens a flap, inserts said "T" thingy and drenches himself with whatever jet fuel hasn't been kaboomed. Adjectives suitable to the occasion ensue. Fire extinguisher guy standing by with cotton rags and an illl-concealed smirk on his face as captain wipes the fuel from his eyes, goes back to give the nut one last turn and then takes a little walk around the aircraft to dry off.

7) Captain back in aircraft, whine, whine whine, whump, whistle, screech, ahh, thundering blasting ROAR of a screech. God what a noise those things made.

So, what was the "T" thingy called?

[ETOPS]

broadreach

It was the extension handle for operating the manual start valve. I've handed more than a few of those through the DV window to the engineer over the years. Getting the co-ordination just right when the guy down the back didn't have a headset was a nightmare and could easily result in the aforementioned fireball!

[woderick]

ETOPS is quite correct, but all this talk of manually starting these things brings to mind probably the greatest cause of Tech Delays on the 1-11 – The Lucas Aerospace CSDS (Constant Speed Drive / Starter).
I don’t know who possessed the imaginative mind that thought of this thing but I believe the 1-11 was it’s only application. In the start mode it’s paddle was blown round by bleed air and wound the engine in an increasing cacophony until fuel was introduced and the engine lit. There followed a brief hiatus and the paddle was then used as a brake to regulate the engine driven generator to 400 Hz – a wonderful piece of lateral thinking.
Many will recall the rising frequency growl of a Spey being wound up by this thing followed by the screech of tortured metal as the drive sheared. The opening of the Fwd door and deployment of the Airstairs to allow the Captain to return to the Terminal and call home for assistance from MAN or LGW.

My other vivid memory is of a 518 at BHX, 0200hrs, -5 deg, February, 118 golfers on their way to AGP, absolutely full of clubs, pax, and fuel and a wet (water injection) take-off from the threshold that was close to the terminal (I think it’s changed now) Ahh the noise !
LOUD AND PROUD that’s the 1-11
:) :) :)

[jumpseater]

Lav, the aircraft have been phased out due to noise requirements which came into force earlier this year, which meant that ICAO Chapter 2 aircraft, had to be withdrawn or hushkitted by 1st April I think it was. A hush kit was made for the aircraft and testing started, also a RR Tay? conversion was considered. Both these options were probably too expensive in relation to the remaining life and value of the airframes. They are still used in the 'undeveloped' world in their unmodified state where noise regs are not any where near as extensive. They can also be operated into Europe as VIP/Emergency/relief flights or to/from maintenance.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Ahh, the delights of 'wobble-pumping' the de-min water, so you could make it back non-stop to the UK from some far-flung destinations such as Menorca. I used to watch this quaint ritual from the air-conditioned comfort of my 737-200 flight deck, laddie! All good character-building stuff, no doubt, but I consider my character to have already been 'built' by flying the previous generation of British airliners. Wot a pity they didn't offer the One-Eleven with P&W JT8Ds, slightly less 'machined from the solid' and with a slightly less complicated hydraulic/flying control system: all that switching on and off and pushing and pulling, God, the bog mindles. Hmmm...seems we've just invented...the McDonnell Douglas DC-9!!

[goldenrivet]

Broadreach

T-thingy - read isolation valve and PRV spanner.

[broadreach]

Thanks for the clarification, ETOPS and goldenrivet. At that same little airport in the upper Amazon the brick outhouse qualities of the 1-11 came in quite handy. Returning to the apron for a hosedown and gear inspection after hitting a pig/dog on the takeoff run and aborting was not unusual. And on one occasion the aircraft swerved to avoid a larger animal or a person (never did find out what it was), left main gear hit a hummock of concrete from runway repair, which collapsed said gear back, jamming the flaps. The aircraft did get off the ground and after burning off fuel for several hours with flaps and the remaining gear down, landed at a place called Tarapoto without much further damage. BAC repaired it in situ and the plane was flying again a few months later.

[taba]

Flew Bac 1-11 with Air UK 1985-1987 as cabin crew.

Also on hushkitted corporate job based JED/ BEY 1995 HZ-KA7

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

ICAO Chapter 2 aircraft, had to be withdrawn or hushkitted by 1st April I think

I well remember some years ago at EGCC sitting in the garden of the Airport Hotel when a hush-kitted 1-11 taxied out for 24 (there was only one runway 24 back then). It lined up, T/O power was applied and all hell was let loose.

The very ground shook, small children cried, dogs and cats ran for cover, beer slopped out of our glasses all over the shaking table (we had our hands over our ears).

Slowly the beast ambled, then ambled a bit faster, and noise and vibration became a bit less as the crackiling Speys dissapeared over the 'hump', only to recur as way off in the distance the aeroplane came back into view as it rotated and climbed out on a Honily departure. For the next ten minutes it was still audible.

My mate turned to me. "Good job it was hush-kitted one", he shouted.

SSD