why did YOU get your airline job?

[Gin Slinger]

This is for a question for self funded ATPL (or fATPL) holders who fly for airlines only - NOT for wannabes, instructors and daydreamers, or those who were gifted a career as a BA cadet.

I've heard the figure of 70-80% quoted for those who undertake flight training for the fATPL that don't progress to flying for an airline. For those of you who have managed to land an airline job or whatever, what do you believe sets you apart from those who haven't?

Don't say luck, as I've already figured out there's element of this whatever you choose to do in life!

Cheers, GS

[starting my CPL on 6th January! and don't take the pee out of my grammar - I'm 7 pints of Old Hooky up :D ]

[Slasher]

Sorry but in MY experience it appears to be luck as to wether your name is pulled out of the Airline Selection Panel hat or not.

In a QF interview process years ago I progressed right to the end. Shrink tests and sim and interviews went very very well (shrink mentioned a few months later my curve was extremley close to what the White Rat was after). But I missed out even though I was just as competant, qualifyed, sane (or insane?) as everyone else. Yet with TN I got in even though it was a similar interview regiman, and there were many candidates miles ahead of me in just about everything (including spelling!). Post mortems often show up NO reason why one candidate was selected over another.

Nowadays there are numbers of carriers who select on the "is your dad a pilot with us?" method. Fortunatley I gained an airline career before this incestual rot started.

[fatboy slim]

First up i think the 70- 80% of fATPLs you quote not going onto flying is massively overstated. Anecdotal evidance of my peers (and data collected by the Flight Schools??) would suggest that its much more like 80% who have flying jobs.

Those who dont get the gig - well not everybody was meant to do this job. If it starts to go wrong during training the Flight Schools will gladly take your money to do extra/remedial flying, when accountancy might be a better career option. The airlines will not however spend their money for extra sim time and line training, so pick those who have a proven track record. By that i mean 1st time passes and good write-ups. You have no experiance when presenting yourself to an airline after a CAP509 course - so must have good scores.

All the very best for Flight School and your career beyond.

[Knold]

Connections, timing and motivation. ;)

Cheers

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Getting in to the holding pool was just down to being a normal bloke with a FATPL.

Getting from the pool to the job was down to being at home when the phone rang on Friday, and being free to start the groundschool on the Monday.

[Knold]

Yes that's right, Flexibility. I got 3 days notice for the type training when I was still employed with a regular job. It wasn't the easiest thing to arrange 35 days off over a weekend with almost no leave left to use, but I did it. :)

[break dancer]

Why does everyone assume that Airline flying is the be all and end all? There are some good jobs out there away from all the bickering and scheduling nightmares. Most people only realise much later that the only reason they're in an Airline is to massage their own egos - flying something bigger and better, and once there, it's bloody difficult to go back.

[Knold]

I've never felt like break dancer and I don't do it for my ego, I do it because I love it.
If you however if you shear break dancers views maybe it's not your cup o' tea.

cheers

[Slasher]

Nah B.D. it isnt for ego. The ego-maniacs usualy fall flat when they confront the really heavey sh!t - CIR training, ATP subjects etc, and never get to the standard required for airline aplication (some do though). In my case I just wanted to physicaly survive in aviation. Anyone whos flown clapped-out overweight Barons on dark and stormey nights while employed in cut-throat GA knows exactley what Im talkin about.

When I joined TN in Oz (pre-Lorenzo era) airline flying was pretty rewarding world-wide. 18 years after Lorenzo its become a mugs game. More and more work for less and less pay through long-term methods Lorenzo himself started. If I could get better money Id rather do aerobatic instructing on Tigers or Stearmans, or run around a bunch of tropical islands in a Beaver.

[tailscrape]

The only answers really are:

Right place, right time and your face fitting.

Good luck.


P.s. I don't believe 70 or 80% never get in!

[Sheep Guts]

Hey Slash,
Ill swap ya, Im on an Otter in the Carribean, luv a 73 slot, got any ideas?

Regards
Sheep

P.s Hows the local cuisine?:D

[Gin Slinger]

Thanks for all the reponses people!

Working through a few other figures I've gleaned, I'm dubious too with the 70-80% figure. It's just something Scroggs said at the recent Wannabe's Seminar. No idea how he came up with it.

For break dancer: I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on anyone who flies outside the airline world. I spire to a shiny new 737 to achieve a decent return on the £50k investment required to get a JAR fATPL as much as anything else, certainly far more than any ego considerations.

Evening all.

[Slasher]

Sheep G in my last post I said Id rather do it if I got better pay. But Caribbean sounds great! I can keep an eye on my Canary Is account while sippin daccharis on Martinique beaches on days off. Twotter? Hmmm......not my first choice but if its better loot than Im gettin here you got a deal!

PS local Nam 'cuisine' is quite good. Lots to choose from! Plentey of 'a-la-carte' and the inland highlander girls especialy keep themselves extremley clean. :D ;)

[Ghostflyer]

Hey Gin Slinger,

Not a BA cadet myself but interested in your 'Gifted an airline career'. Is that the same as being gifted a military career or gifted NASA selection or maybe even gifted to go to Harvard Law School.

In my experience, these mates that you would say were 'gifted' something were actually 'selected'. Yep like it or lump it some folks have more aptitude than others and they get 'selected' because they performed better during the selection. There are very few jobs out there where there are slots available for everyone.

There are a lot of people that I considered total tossers who sadly have the ability to be 'selected' and got in ahead of guys that I thought were good mates but.....

There are also lots of guys that say 'Nah didn't want to join the BA cadet scheme or Air Force so didn't apply'. Quite often they didn't have the balls to 'compete' for the limited number of places available.

Aviation is one of the few 'professions' that I can think of where if you are not qualified by proper training at the outset you can progress through time, money and hard work.

But don't think that the guys that got the cadet slots or military slots didn't work hard. They were 'selected' as being a better but more importantly 'lower risk' candidate in a very expensive business and then the pressure came on.

They probably got selected coz they started working harder, earlier. Once in training, they then had to show the motivation and skill to progress judged against high standards and time constraints.

In the military a very high proportion don't make it, not through ineptitude but because they don't reach the standard required in the time available. If they haven't come up to standard they don't have the 'luxury' to pay for a few more hours until they crack it.

Just another point of view, best of luck in the job hunts ahead but remember you will be 'selected' for the job by whatever criteria the company that wishes to employ you sets.

If its the old boys network then get a tie or a dad. But remember, even then, that the really able, committed and well prepared candidates normally get in ahead.

Just make sure you don't miss out saying 'I wouldn't have done that for real' or 'I didn't have time to prepare' or 'I would have done better if...' or even more common, 'I would have gone around for real if I wasn't in the sim!'

Back in my box,

Ghost

[Uptrim Disable]

I got mine 'cause I didn't give up...

[Ghostflyer]

Uptrim,

Good on yah and I bet you didn't blame anyone else along the way.

Ghost

[FL245]

Uptrim Disable, you are totally correct.

[MaxProp]

Amen to uptrim disable. As someone who has the unfortunate job of sorting the Cvs on the floor the key factor is probably availability--can you start next monday--having a booked holiday in bermuda ,or blackpool) is not good for the career.
best of luck to you all.

[sky9]

Max Prop

It doesn't say much for your company.

[SAM 2M]

Qualified in Mar 91 just before Gulf War. Wrote 400+ letters to 100+ companies. Went back to my ground job nursing £40,000 loan!

A few months later landed a job with Loganair. Did 4400 hours on Turboprops. With 6 years Airline experience moved from turboprops and started flying B757 B767 UK Charter & L Haul. Have been a B757 Captain for almost 2 years.

In short, Don't give up. Try not to let the money burden get to you. Stay optimistic. Eventually you will be in the right place at the right time.

Good Luck :) :)

Sam

[Gin Slinger]

Thanks for all of your inputs, I really do appreciate it.

Ghostflyer: I fully understand what you are saying; perhaps my initial post could have been better worded.

SAM 2M: thanks for your comment regarding the money burden. I am very lucky in that thanks to plenty of hard work prior to entering the World of Voodoo Economics that is aviation, plus a very generous (but not rich) dad, my debt level is manageable. I do fear somewhat for some of my colleagues however. Plenty of them have £35,000+ personal loans, and more than one has to combine this with a wife and young children to support. It was their choice to be in this situation, but it is galling when people who have made little personal sacrifice get positions before them.