UK flight Instructor has Q on UK airspace. Help avoid infringements!

[jason007]

Dear friends,

I am a flight instructor who has recently began flying in the uk after spending a couple of years training and flying in the USA. On getting back to the good old UK I have found it incredibly difficult to sift through the A.N.O and collect the information I need for the laws on PPL flying in and out of controlled airspace. Please help!!!!

Q1/ How does a PPL transit a Class D airspace in the UK? Does he/she have to attain a SVFR clearance or does a simple “you are cleared VFR not above whatever” be sufficient? I thought that a SVFR clearance was only attained if weather conditions where bellow normal VFR limits…….That’s what it was used for in the US anyway. What if I want to land?? What if the hours of watch are over????

Q2/ How about a simple ATZ? What if the hours of watch are over? Can the PPL fly through the ATZ or does he/she have to avoid it? What if it’s a Military ATZ?

Q3/ Can a PPL or PPL-IMC get a clearance to transit Class A airspace VFR or on SVFR???? I’ve read that pilot and A/C must be Instrument rated but have also heard of people still getting cleared……..what’s the full story?


Q4/ what is the point of an advisory route if nobody has to talk to anyone to fly it? I don’t get it!

PLEASE HELP! The ANO is not clear on the above, nor are any of the PPL student books.

In the US the Federal Regulations were very clear on what you could do and what you couldn’t do.

Merry X-mass friends and thanks

:D

[eastern wiseguy]

I will answer question one .If you wish to transit a class d zone(aldergrove for example) a simple request of where you wish to enter and leave will suffice.If daytime I will issue you with a cleared to transit the Aldergrove Control zone not above 2000 feet vfr ...report leaving at x or cleared to enter the zone not above 2000 feet report at x for onward clearance ...something like that .If it nighttime then the same applies except the clearance becomes Special VFR.Obviously in this case you may be held outside of the zone until seperation may be affected.
As for atz and closing...we don't close... but I would suggest that transmitting blind might be a good idea?Class A airspace ...ain't got any so over to Heathrow Director(retired)? :D :D
I have no doubt one of my Scottish colleagues can help with advisory airspace:confused:

[jason007]

Cheers mate,

It just goes to show if I as an instructor cant find the information, what hope does a ppl have……

ps. Ok so I Transmit blind and there is no reply. I also know that the ATC guys and gals have closed shop and gone home, but does that absolve the PPL from his legal responsibility in terms of transiting an ATZ?

why would the transit at night be SVFR? again I'm not getting the thing about SVFR.....In the US it was only used so that a pilot may go flying with lower VMC minima.....

[BEXIL160]

I will attempt to help, digging into my (murky) past....

Q1. As per above. You can't fly VFR at night in the UK (Rule 22), hence SVFR inside a CTR, but IFR outside.

Q2. See the left hand side of the current CAA half mil charts (2171CD for example). Under the list of ATZs it says:
Outside the notified hours of operation of an ATZ, and at aerodromes without notified ATZs, pilots should:
a)endeavour to establish two way comms with the aerodrome
b)conduct their flight in the vicinty of the aerodrome in accordance with RULE 17...(all about conforming to the traffic pattern etc)

Certain bits of CAS, like the Solent CTR are de-activated when ATC isn't operating. See the UK AIP.

MATZs do not have ANY legal status. However you would be well advised to contact the controlling "authority" for a "clearance" to cross.

[Q3. ] Err dunno. Again try the UK AIP... failing that, HD? Or try ringing LL ATC up. They will help.

[Q4. ] A mystery to me as well. Up in Scotland they are useful as they give the military some idea of where the civil traffic should be, and where they should try to avoid unless they've got some sort of radar service.

Hope this helps
rgds BEX

[Another_CFI]

To fill in the missing answer from BEXIL160.

[Q3] A basic PPL holder, or anyone else, in an aircraft that is NOT equiped for IFR flight can obtain a SVFR clearance to cross a Class A Control Zone, but not a Control Area such as an airway. Used typically to fly into any of the airfields in the Channel Islands or to cut the corner of the Heathrow Zone.

[Bern Oulli]

jason007

Firstly, did you know that a .PDF version of CAP393 is available from the CAA web-site? If you search for it, it will deny any knowledge of it BUT
go to http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393__Dec02.pdf et voila!

OK, Question 1. You gotta have a clearance. It will be VFR or SVFR during the day according to the Met conditions, and as
has been stated already, SVFR or IFR are the only options at night.

Question 2. ATZ see Rule 39(1) of the Rules of the Air etc. Essentially you need a clearance to transit during the
notified hours of watch. However, again as previously suggested, give a call anyway. The hours of watch may have been extended for that
delayed freighter that you know nothing about.

Question 3. Another_CFI has given the answer to this. I used to work in the CI Zone
(there's a clue, but I don't care) which is Class A with bits of Class D in it.
The ONLY way a PPL can get there is on a SVFR clearance (day or night). Unusually,
you may well find yourself being given an altitude at which to fly AND a heading or three.

Question 4. There is insufficient IFR traffic to justify a full-scale Class A airway (the GA lobby
wouldn't like it). However, if you wish to participate, and be separated from the other flights that
are also participating, go ahead. You will not, of course, be separated from non-participating
flights. Freely translated it boils down to what you said in your first post. WHAT IS THE POINT?

Enjoy navigating through CAP393!

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm not going to answer the questions, I just want to say that this just helps to show how confusing the rules are in the U.K.

For example, when I used to fly out of Blackpool which is outside CAS, to see the illuminations. At night, we had to be IFR (no night VFR, no CTZ so no SVFR). Some nights there would be about a dozen of us from Blackpool plus some from Liverpool and Woodvale all on the same ten miles of coast at similar levels. Did we get standard separation? Not that I would've wanted it of course, wouldn't have seen much from 12000 feet.

[terrain safe]

Kilgore, this also shows how easy it is to think "I'm IFR I most be separated from other traffic". This is wrong because it depends on the type of airspace you are in as well as the type of service you are offered.

eg in class G airspace (the FIR) an IFR ac receiving a RAS must be separated from a VFR ac which is known traffic, but in class D (a control zone like at Stansted or Birmingham the same ac do not have to be separated except the IFR ac is given Traffic info and only given standard separation if requested ( I think and await other people to correct me if I am wrong).

See it's simple really.......................

[tired-flyboy]

terrain safe

hopefully if you were giving a RAS to ac in Class G you
you would give standard seperation to against ac that is VFR and unknown!!!! :o

Remember there are lots of fast pointy things out there at night that like to play especially round the St Abbs - New area - good luck if you fly there at night:eek:

[Evil J]

Hope I can help here.

Firstly IFR outside CAS all you have to do is comply with the minimum height rule (1000 ft clear of highest obstacle blah blah) and fly at the appropriate quadrangle level (with a few exceptions)-no separaration, no requirement for an ATC service. RIS and RAS are separate issues and I suggest a separate thread as they are similarly complicated.

As far as ATZ's are concerned all a pilot is required to do is obtain sufficient information from the ground station to allow safe conduct of the flight (plus some other stuff, listen out on the freq, conform to the established pattern etc) but as I understood it, if 2 way communication cannot be established (therefore said info cannot be obtained) the flight must remain clear of the ATZ. Non radio aircraft are slightly different.

To complicate matters more where an ATZ is controlled by a full ATC unit (as oppossed to AFISO or A/G) the zone, from my flying experience takes on a more CAS appearance with specific transit approval being required (an AFISO or A/G can only give you information therefore as a pilot you have to decide yourself whether it is safe to transit). But like I said this info is that gleaned from ten years flying experience, I have never worked as an ATCO outside CAS so someone who has may be better placed to help.