One for the road?

[london-flyer]

Just a quick question that I thought you guys would be able to answer better then me!

I have a friend who works for a small outfit in the u.k, she has done a lot of nightstops with a Capt who loves a drink, and like many, is going over the 8 hr rule, however,he is going well over the 8 hr rule, ( and drinking an awful lot )and is seen drinking until 4 or 5 am when reporting at 6 or 7, and many crew have raised their concerns to her ( the No1 ). She is getting worried, and is not sure what to do about it. is it her place to say something?, or should that be the F/Os job. ( many of them are very young, and just starting out)

I said leave well alone, but what if one day it all goes wrong?
Any advice?
:confused:

[niknak]

Shop him, and do it now.
Would she hesitate if the guy was in the same scenario and going to drive?:mad:

[chiglet]

IF , HMG are going to "Pay" £500 for an "Inebriated" Driver conviction, then a Pilot, ["Captain"] on the 'sauce' must be
worth?
Sorry,but I sat Dob the Beggar IN!!!!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've been there, it's difficult. Best advice I can offer is don't let it linger, and don't make it official if possibly avoided. An off the record / closed door talk with the Chief Pilot (or most sensible minded senior manager available) might be the way ahead, who can always then engineer a way to find out for his/her self.

What happens then will be out of her hands, but either disciplinary action if it's gone too far, or more hopefully some for of "sort yourself out" programme if it's not and the bloke's worth keeping. But pax aircraft with a short bottle-to-throttle time can't be tolerated and has to be knocked on the head before somebody gets hurt.

And yes, it is everybody's job. The art is to sort these things out without hurting people if humanly possible.

G

[Horatio]

Whilst it's difficult to do, the answer is however very easy.

From the No. 1's perspective, if she has been approached by her crew, then that has to be regarded as an official approach and it is her responsibility and duty to report the situation to her boss (probably the head of cabin services). The head of cabin services then has the responsibility to report it the matter to the Dir of Operations. You can't expect the No.1 to have to go direct to the Ops Director.

Likewise, any F/O finding him/herself in the same situation has the same responsibility. Again, not easy. If an F/O turns up for duty and it is obvious that his colleague is not in a fit state to fly, he should not go to the airplane with him. If his colleague insists then he has to make it official there and then and should refuse to fly. No-one is going to sack you for taking the right, responsible course of action.

Attitudes to drinking in the workplace have changed significantly over the years, and whilst it may have been viewed as a 'bit of a lark' that most of us have been guilty of at some time or other in the past, it is now socially unacceptable to fly, drive or operate any kind of machinery whilst under the influence that could render injury to the operator and others under his care.

Likewise, most managements today also recognise that those who do it probably need help and should not be ostracised.

No one wants to 'shop' a colleague, but if it helps to muster the courage to do what you have to do, remember that you are probably doing the person a favour. He or she might not see it that way at the time, but when 'cured' will probably thank you. They are a danger to themselves and maybe cannot help themselves.

To ignore the problem is to condone it and that implicates you.

I'm just a bit curious how the 'observers' know this is happening up to 2 - 3 hours prior to report? Shouldn't they be in their pits?

On a lighter note, I still smile at the alleged court case of a B727 crew (quite a few years ago now) that got reported by a member of the bar staff from the establisment they were drinking in the night before. When questioned, the waitress said, 'I knew he was drunk, because when he tried to stand he fell over'. The accused lawyer supposedly said that '8 pitchers of beer doesn't affect my client as it may other people, because as an alcoholic he is used to consuming larger quantities of alcohol than most and can handle it!'. Supposedly true. That was the typical kind of attitude many years ago, not true today.

Joking aside, for the benefit of any non-aviation professionals reading these pages, I honestly believe that such instances today are miniscual and nobody should read this thread and believe that it is a widespread problem. These problems exist in all walks of life and to a far greater degree in any other walk of life. Take comfort from the fact that the crew of an airplane is not one person, but many and the chances of them allowing one person to act in such a way are very remote. That is why the other crew must never turn a blind eye to such things.

I hope that helps your friend.

[BEagle]

1. Print a copy of this thead.

2. Send him a copy. Anonymously.

[Maxfli]

Whether a member of BALPA or not call the office and ask to speak to a pilot on the Pilots Advisory Group (PAG). They will have someone who lives / covers your location.

They know how to address this type of issue.

In the meantime I suggest you do not operate with an individual who you are sure is incapacitated. Going sick may be the only option. When the next Copilot turns up and goes sick as well then people will start to ask questions.

The CRM way out is to inform the individual that you believe he is unfit for duty.
If he intends to operate inform him you will go sick and do the following.

(1) You will ask Operations who is going to replace you.
(2) You will contact the pilot who is to replace you and inform them as to why you have become ill. It is very likely that they will go sick also.
(3) Implore the incapacitated individual to go sick.

[boris]

Ghengis has the right answer. I have seen this problem twice in my career and have had the difficult task of sorting out the messes involved.
The Captain DOES have a problem that is probably alcoholism in some sort of developed stage as he is apparently not even careful enough to and hide his problem from others. This sort of behaviour is certainly noticed by bar staff and night porters and WILL out eventually. However, the potential seriousness is such that immediate action must be taken to ensure that he will not fly again until the illness (for that is what it is) is cured.
The fact that the pilot woks for "a small outfit" should make the task of a closed door interview that much easier and, I believe, any Ops Director or Chief Pilot will take seriously your friend's concerns. These days, one would expect the OD or CP to help, not hinder. The CA Medical Branch are up to speed with this one and should then become the primary source of help.
Hiding it under the carpet is not an option.
The BALPA PAG group, whilst a grand bunch should be the second line of help for this unfortunate pilot. The company MUST be aware.

[Atropos]

Maxfli,
That isn't the CRM way out that is passing the buck and not taking responsibility. Trying to talk privately with the person concerned IS the CRM way forward. We had a skipper in an outfit I used to work for who came to work smelling of booze. We told him to go home as we were not prepared to work with him in that state, he took the hint and got himself sorted.

Whoever uncovers the problem has a responsibility to themselves, their colleagues who will have to fly with the person concerned AND the individual themselves, after all they are a colleague too. Our industry has managed these sorts of issues for too long by hinting and tipping and passing the problem on to the next person in the line. If the person won't listen then escalate the action by involving training staff rather than management, we all know who the right people to go to are, try to do it with the person concerned as well. I hope this problem is sorted and the individuals concerned can find the win/win solution.

[boris]

Atropos
You obviously mean well but I think you underestimate the gravity of the problem.
If we are talking of alcoholism here and seems that we are, the problem does not rest with 'the boys'. Those with knowledge of the problem owe it to the company first and foremost and colleagues after that. You also seem to have forgotten passengers and public in your list.
Have more faith in your management, after all it is nearly 2003! The Dark Ages are long gone and this problem will not be cured by it being merely pointed out by colleagues or a friendly Trainer. What happens in the meantime, whilst the problem is progressed up the line? Will he still be flying?
Anyway, the reaction of the alcoholic will almost invariably be to the effect that he doesn't have a problem and what has it got to do with you? You may even lose a friend.
The biggest win/win, as you put it, is when the individual is cured and restored to the line and that is where enlightened management and the CAA, working in harmony, stands the best chance of success.
Sorry, don't mean to preach, but please believe me that it does work my way.
boris

[london-flyer]

Thought you would like an update, I spoke to my friend, who has been on the web page and is amazed by the 100% backing to tell someone. However, she is concerned, and is going to do something about it. To answer a queston earlier regarding how she knows he is still up 3 to 4 hrs before report, she returns to the same destination on many different occasions, and knows many of the bar staf well, who have even commented, and on a couple of occasions, there has been a couple of crew, one on a ealy flight, including him, and another doing the later, therefore staying up, and seeing him. She has mentioned it to one very senior Capt, but he laughed it off, and said not to worry her pretty head about it. That comment oviously put her off saying anything to anyone else, and its a bit of an airline joke, look whos in the bar again!!!!!.
So whos best to talk to, should she go through cabin services, and let them deal with it, or stright to fleet capt, or a union rep. Its not an easy one.

I must also aggree with comments made earlier, I have been flying for 7 years now, and never seen it before, so if any non aviation people are reading this, then please do not worry, it is a very rear situation indeed;)

[Capt Homesick]

The best method I can think of is the one I hope I'll use if it ever happens to me: front him and say, I hate to mention it, but you smell of alcohol and I'm concerned.
If you're sure you're safe, then we'll call for a breathalyzer to reassure me: if you're in some doubt, then call in sick and I'll back you up and say it was something you ate.
Yes, it risks alienating him, but it provides him with a way out, and with a hint that he has a problem. If that fails, call your ops, and if they won't do anything, call the plods. It's your licence too, not to mention the fare-paying passengers whose lives depend on your judgement.

[Anthony Carn]

The 8 hr "bottle to throttle" yardstick is now way out of date and far too vague.

Flying alchohol-in-bloodstream limits are much lower than they were only a few years ago.

london-flyer's friend should report her concerns to her management IMMEDIATELY and, failing action being taken, to the applicable Civil Aviation Authority. It would be her duty to convey her suspicions to airport security upon report for each day of work with said pilot. This should all be possible anonymously with a bit of prior thought; if it is'nt then the system needs to be changed in that country.

The guy possibly needs help, but more importantly, he must be grounded until he's assesed to be OK or not. Mistaken accusation is better than dead passengers, crew and innocents on the ground.

IMHO

[flapsforty]

What some of you seem to have missed is the fact that this is a case not of a FO being concerned but of No1 CC worrying about what she needs to do.
A very different situation.

Whichever way you slice it, all the old inhibitors come into play when CC is concerned about cockpit's crew ability.
Rank, age, authority, percieved superiority, and usually the gender gap. How qualified are YOU to comment on the captain's level of intoxication if the FO doesn't refuse to fly with him???

Voicing concern directly is almost impossible. That might sound unlikely and exaggerated, but it is not. I am a forthright person, not afraid of confrontations. But the one time I have had to do this I was nervous as hell. And that time it wasn't even the captain but the FO, and lucky for me the captain was a woman of the approachable kind!
It did teach me that next time, if it ever happens again, I will simply pull my cabin crew off the AC telling the Captain why in a neutral manner, and then give the head of the CC department and the chief pilot a call.

London-flyer if all else fails, your friend might want to get in touch with CHIRP (http://www.chirp.co.uk/air/default.htm).
Their programme has been extended to include cabin crew members in 2001, and there is a phone number and a mail addy on their site.

I wish her strength in dealing with this.
It's an ungrateful task. A consolation is the fact that once you have taken action, you sleep a lot better at night!

[Atropos]

Boris,
I obviously didn't explain myself very well. I agree with what you say but this is a cabincrew member. I was suggesting that if they are reticent about going to management then a word with the training staff first may get them to take the problem on and relieve the CC of the burden. If I was faced with the problem I would talk to the individual and insist that we both went to see the management concerned and would refuse to operate with the individual concerned. I know our company would do everything they could to help the individual and get them straight so they could resume their career so I suppose that would make the decision easier.

As has been stated above, the bottom line is that this individual has to be stopped from flying until their problem/habit is sorted out.

[poetpilot]

.... London-flyer posted ..... "She has mentioned it to one very senior Capt, but he laughed it off, and said not to worry her pretty head about it. That comment oviously put her off saying anything to anyone else, and its a bit of an airline joke, look whos in the bar again!!!!!. "

...well, IMHO there's someone else who should DEFINITELY be shopped - ASAP. I'm just a humble PPL, no rights in this forum, but senior staff in any profession have overarching duties & legal responsibilities and this one has obviously shirked his. Bust the man!

[Anti-stupidity]

I am sorry Guys and Gals, but this string has made me register and comment. You cannot be serious! I have witnessed first hand the trauma of alcoholism, and the effects on families, ones own and those of innocent "by-standers".

You debate for two days now what this lady should do. The person in question has flown how many flights in this time? 2, 3, 6 or more?

The responsibility of this lady is to get this person out of the cockpit now, not in three weeks time. And if she doesn't do it, I would even go so far as to say that London Flyer, who certainly knows the name of the airline involved, has a moral obligation to go public.

Look at the reported reaction of a Senior Pilot with the company - "don't worry your pretty little head about it", and it seems that the problem is known within the company and nothing is being done.

This is a disgrace.:mad:

[london-flyer]

Thought you would like to know whats been done. my friend and I spoke to another Capt today, who is very approachable, and without mentioning any names explained the situation. He knew who we were talking about, and aggreed that it had got worse over the last couple of months, so we decided it was best coming from someone outside of the airline. Me, I used to work their as well and know him, so I called him, explained how we were feeling, not mentioning any othe peoples names, he got very angry, called me a lot of names, and so on, but I said that if anyone suspects him of drinking before a flight, I would report him at once, I explained that I had called the caa for advice, mentioning no names or airlines, ( which they hated ) and I was willing to call the chief capt. I explained that we are giving him a chance, I also spoke to his wife, who was a lot more understanding, and she aggreed to help as well, we will keep in contact, and as he knows, I still keep in touch with many C/C, and if anyone mentions anything like this again, I will report him. I will not even tell him I am going to. He did say that e knows many pople where I work, and contracts can be terminated for a lot of reasons, but I am hoping he will calm down and nothing will be done about it. Lets just hope it works, I am not completly pleased with this idea to be honest, because if it all goes wrong, then we could be to blame. But this is so hard its amazing.

So what do you think, right way to handle it? And please be nice, and feeling bad enough about this as it is!!!!!!!
:(

[poetpilot]

London-flyer, sorry for yet another comment from a relative layman, but it seems that you may be in a hole yourself (with this chap's threats).

I don't think you have any option but to report him to his senior management/HR department, copying the CAA. You have your own livelihood to protect, you have to move before he can exert any influence. In the meantime, people's lives are at risk, as well as the credibility of the airline profession.

You cannot rely on his wife (who understandably will be protective but may not necessarily be skilled at dealing with the situation).

It's not nice, and I don't envy you, but I've had to deal with alcoholism in the workplace - equally ugly but thank God, innocent's lives were not directly at risk in that situation. He needs professional help.

[Remmington]

Perhaps you could think along the lines that the guy is pissed off with his wife/job & life.......go and join him for a drink and talk it over...he might just cry on your shoulder...but you might also try to sort him out rather than screw his career....unless of course you dont have a hidden agenda to screw his wife or take his job?
Happy Xmas

[Nattracks]

london-flyer, you have only one option.
You have to report him. He shows all the signs of alcoholism and he needs help. By not reporting him you are just as guilty if he crashes and kills someone.

[Mick Stability]

Don't forget that BALPA have trained counsellors for this sort of thing. It would be nice to think that the right kind of expertise could salvage something from this sad affair, and who knows even give this guy a way back to respectability.

[Mac the Knife]

You can't reason with substance abusers when they're still using, because for all practical purposes they are not capable of it. If you report him and management are somewhere in the 21st century then he will be told to take a holiday and go into a recognised Rehab. program. When he comes out (4-8 weeks) he drives a desk for a couple of months & does 90 AA meetings in 90 days. Then he can start flying again with someone relatively senior in the other seat. He should expect random breath/blood/urine checks for quite a while. This is not a joke. One slip and he's out. Maybe he'll make it into stable recovery. Maybe he won't. That's up to him and his God.

Tough, but them's my rules in my outfit - worked so far.

If nobody does something firm before things become irretrievable then he'll end up disgraced and dismissed and quite possibly dead by his own hand (or screws up and take others with him).

[Horatio]

London Flyer

I don't wish to be unkind, but to be honest, I don't think you have handled the situation in the best possible way. I admire your concern for the problem, your concern for your friend and what appears to be an honest desire to help the person concerned in a humane way.

I do not agree with a number of the other suggestions here, but hell, I don't hod the monopoly on wise or right decisions; like everyone else here, these are personal opinions and there will always be a difference of opinion.

My reasoning is as follows;

1. You do not work for the airline concerned and therefore as well-meaning as your intentions are to help your friend address the problem, it is not your direct responsibility. This is a dilemma she unfortunately has to resolve as she is a person of standing and trust in the airline and like it or not she has her own responsibilities to face. One could argue that you have a responsibility as a law abiding citizen to report any law breaker; i.e a burglar, drunk driver etc, however the primary responsibility to do something about this rests with those individuals that are directly involved in the situation. This encompasses those that fly with him and those that work in the same airline and are aware of the problem. As I said in my earlier post, if you know about it and do nothing then you are condoning the situation.

2. By calling the guy concerned you have put yourself in the firing line. I agree that there is no way he could influence your career with other airlines and if he could, those airlines would not be airlines you would want to work for and try and build a career with. As is becoming evident in this post, the guy concerned has a deep-seated problem. If what has been suggested is true, he has an almost defiant attitude about what he is doing, not to try and disguise the problem from other crew that will undoubtedly see him drinking and the bar staff at the regular hotel he stops at. This combined with his reaction to you trying to help him would probably indicate that his problem is out of control. Whilst there are agencies that can help such as AA, BALPA, CAA medical unit etc, these are really self-help kinds of assistance that rely on the individual first accepting he has a problem and recognising that he needs and more importantly wants help. When someone gets to that stage they are probably well on their way to recovery; this guy is far from that and yet continues to fly!

2. I fully agree with Flaps40; I know her and she is a very experienced and wise lady that has had the benefit of considerable cabin crew experience that allows her to stand up to even a hard-headed flight crew. She is however right, because this problem is clearly well-known in the airline and yet nobody has accepted their responsibility to do what they ought to do. Why should it fall upon her shoulders, just because she is concientious?

3. What does irk me is that this is widely known from what you say and everyone buries their head in the sand. Not acceptable. Especially not from a senior management pilot. Also, if everyone else knows, that means that every other captain in the airline and every other first officer that ever flew with the guy have spectacularly failed in their responsibility. End result is that the guy is still flying and should have been stopped a long time ago.

4. Attitudes like, 'if he won't go sick, I will' are not acceptable. You simply pass the buck to another F/O. 'Go sick and I will back you up, say you ate something', likewise pass the buck.

All those people here that read Pprune and work for the airline, probably know who it is and who LF is talking about. Time to wise up and if any one individual does't have the balls then do it collectively, and do it NOW! If this is true, then the guy concerned should be grounded right now. Not tomorrow, nor the next, but RIGHT NOW!

I hope you all have the courage to do what you should do. If you don't and something happens, then on your own individual consciences!

[boris]

london-flyer
Look in your private message box.

[london-flyer]

Firstly I would like to say thank-you for all the support, everyone has offered about this subject. I really has been eating us up for the last few days and you advice has really helped.

The good news, well sort of good news, is the Capt involved has been grounded, not sure about what happened to be completly honest, but my friend was told today he was grounded, and some people are saying that pprune has something to do with it. Thats how aware everyone is about the problem he has,everyone knew who it was, a couple of concerned pilots brought it to a managers attention, one being the guy we spoke to, and its gone from their. So who knows whats gonna happen, but the most important thing is that he is not behind the stick as such.

I just hope the airline involved learns a lesson from this. It really could of got ugly, or worse, killed people, and all because people are to frightened to speak up. It all goes to show how important good CRM is, as well as an open door policy, and correct reporting procudures.

Anyway, fingercrossed it is now over, and out of our hands, thanks again to you all. And have a great christmas and new year. I know I will now its all dead and burried, I just hope he will too.
;)

[hostie]

London Flyer,

This is such a tough position for your friend to be in, but trust me having been in a VERY similar position, the longer you leave it the worse it gets.

You lose credibility if you leave it a long time before reporting it
"if you believe it to be such a serious problem why did it take you so long to come forward?"
Was one response I received
I was later accused of being racist as the person concerned was from another European country!

Can you think of any VALID reason for not reporting him?

Depending on the a/c he operates (eg 737) there could be over 600 reasons a day for stopping him flying

She needs to go straight to senior management, she will be supported - I was (eventually)

I wish her all the luck in the world but as the No 1 her crew have made an official complaint to her upon which it is her duty to act - it was similar circumstances for myself
- bite the bullet, it is the ONLY way
Hostie


I was typing my post while you were posting the update
I am so pleased to hear this, you must all be very relieved and it can only have a positive effect on every other crew nightstopping

Here's to a very merry and safe Xmas and New Year

[RatherBeFlying]

We can only be thankful that he was grounded before having an accident -- next time may not be as fortunate.

All crew need a published procedure that tells them exactly who must be notified (CP, HR, Medical) in this sad situation so that it gets resolved without exposing passengers and crew to further danger.

If I was in management, I'd much rather get a phone call than hear of postings on PPRune that might be about my airline.

[Mac the Knife]

With a good rehabilitation program and quite a bit of tough work (and painful introspection) on his side he could be back in his seat in six months - a happier and wiser man.

One of my subjects is now one of the most valued and respected members of the team, doing superb work and inspiring others.

The other, never confronted alas and allowed to sink because no one knew what to do, eventually committed suicide leaving a young wife and two small kids. It is still awful to think about, but at the time none of us knew anything about the illness.

Thre is a reasonable chance that this will all end happily and a highly trained person will be restored to full function in society and his work. I'm sure that we all pray for this outcome.

Edited to add: It is my understanding that when people stop concealing and start using/abusing openly then they may well be desperately hoping that someone is going to stop them. If that was what was going on with your chap them I guess he got lucky.

[Genghis the Engineer]

London-Flyer.

Whilst I hope the advice here from various sources has been useful to you, and I suspect that the presence of the thread here on Pprune has made a big difference, you and your friend are brave women who faced down a difficult situation and deserve our respect.

Have a good christmas, and lets all hope that eventual outcome of this is happy for all affected.

G

[Paterbrat]

An interesting and sad situation that thankfully does not seem to occur quite as much these days. The general perceptions and increased awareness of crews to the problem has altered.

There was conflicting advice with regard to solving the problem but almost universal agreement that something should be done.

The problem has been tackled and action taken. A difficult and personal problem was shared and input sought, networked if you will. It seems that enough people visit the network for that approach to have produced results, and one that seemed to be what was called for. Now let us hope the individual concerned can recieve help with his problem.

[chrisN]

Well done london-flyer - Good to hear the original problem is now being resolved.

It seems to me that two problems, in one man, still have to be addressed by the company concerned: the "very senior Capt" who "laughed it off, and said not to worry her pretty head about it."

[boris]

london-flyer

It looks as if the reported problems may, happily, reach a proper conclusion.

A lot of people here were very concerned about the problem and showed proper regard for it, for you and for your friend. Would you be good enough to let us all know any outcome that there is, should you learn of it?

A Happy New Year to you.

boris