CTC ATP scheme

[foghorn]

Does anyone have an idea of how many people progress to the AQC part of the assessment as opposed to the number that are accepted on the scheme?

Do just a small proportion fail at the last hurdle, or is it just a device to keep CTC's expensive AQC course full of students and therefore another expensive gamble for a wannabe?

cheers!
foggy.

[The Greaser]

Foghorn

The selection process should weed out people who are unlikely to pass the AQC course however there are people who have not progressed into the holding pool. No idea what the percentage but I'm sure it is pretty low.
If you are lucky enough to get to that stage - grab it with both hands and work your socks off. The reward for passing maybe beyond your imagination - I know!!

[MorningGlory]

Got to be worth a bash!! Or else its another 60gees down the pan!

[askyoda]

Not to be confused with the CTC McAlpine zero to ATPL sponsorship, this scheme gives qualified pilots a type rating and line training IF successful after paying 6K for an enhanced MCC course. So its not a 60K benefit if successful although obviously well worth your time if you make it into the ranks of easyjet etc.

I have no direct experience with the organisation although they do seem to have a good reputation. Foghorn raises a good point about the odds of actually getting the type rating and line experience after paying for the course. From talking to friends who have been to the evaluations CTC gave the impression of being guarded about giving away these kinds of statistics, for whatever thats worth. I know of five people who were selected and completed the course. Out of these five I know one who has since started a type rating course for easyjet. One failed the final handling test and is out of the hold pool. The remaining three have had no response over the last 2 to 6 months after completing the course, although they are told they will be picked up eventually. Incidentally, the one doing the type rating was not the first to do the course and has apparently jumped ahead.

CTC have said in the past that places in the hold pool are determined by your grading on the scheme, and it would appear that it is possible to jump ahead if you do well/they like you. The lad that failed his handling test was not a below average pilot, just bad luck that day. It would be interesting to hear if other people have had similar experiences, as everything I have written is just heresay from what other people have told me over pints.

[foghorn]

Thanks for the info, skyoda - I've only ever met one person who's been through the scheme and he didn't get through to the pool - however I know that there are several pprune regulars who have got through and gone virtually straight to jet airlines.

[MorningGlory]

Interesting reading, but I must say I'm not surprised that CTC have been somewhat shady in the past re: statistics and numbers on how many a) pass their selection tests and move onto the course, and b) of those who do move on, how many on average get into the pool?

Wouldn't we all love to know the answers to the above, however like I said, CTC will keep this quiet as I can only assume the figures themselves would decrease their revenue due to pilots like us evaluating or thinking twice about the cash vs risk scenario.

I do however reserve judgement on CTC and I'm sure they are a very well run and professional organisation. But should another f.ATPLer take a chance on Another £6K? Well like I said on my original msg, its worth a chance I guess if you've already spunked 60 big ones the f.ATPL.

[Ray Ban]

I know of at least 4 cadets earlier this year who passed the AQC and whatever advanced handling courses they had to do and are STILL waiting around in a holding pool somewhere!

[MorningGlory]

Guess you could argue that those guys are sitting around after months due to the post 9/11 downturn in the industry.

Flipside of that of course is that the CTC associated airlines are of the 'low cost' persuasion, the ones that are apparently 'booming' at the moment. It therefore makes you think, why are the ones in the holding pool after several months still not in jobs or even interviewed???

[askyoda]

It is a tough question and I suppose without any statistics forthcoming from CTC it can only be classed as a calculated gamble. The real problem is that there are really very few options for the 200 hr frozen ATPL holder without any commercial experience.

I'd be interested to hear what people would choose to do if they could get a loan for 6 grand.

1) get a flight instructor ticket assuming you had a job lead with a local club

2) do the AQC assuming you were selected

If there were any turboprop operators hiring people and training them up then that's what I would choose to do, but if you can't get a job through the traditional route you either fork up and pay more or roll over and go back to the old job, whatever that happens to be.

[Pilot Pete]

Guys,

Easyjet aren't the only airline that take CTC hold pool pilots. I would disagree with Morning Glory who stated;

Flipside of that of course is that the CTC associated airlines are of the 'low cost' persuasion, the ones that are apparently 'booming' at the moment.

Monarch and jmc are not of the low cost persuasion and have taken cadets in the past, amongst others. The market is still very depressed for low hours guys. Pilots with much more experience are finding places with various carriers and it all comes down to supply and demand. jmc only rescinded the last of their redundancies in September and went into the winter with something like 5 pilots over establishment. Why would they currently be looking for anyone from the hold pool at CTC? I don't know about Monarch but I would guess they are also currently fully established for the winter season. Most other airlines are still licking their wounds post 9/11.

Easyjet are constantly recruiting and take quite a cross section of experience levels. It's just timing. Things will pick up and movement will take place and guys in the hold pool will get picked up at some point. I have a pal who was in it for a year before getting jmc, and that was a couple of years ago when expansion was still happenning.

If you're not in the pool you won't get placed. If you are good enough it's another opportunity and a great one at that. Airlines like jmc love low hours guys - they even out the demograph and aren't banging on the Chief Pilot's door within a year asking for a command that is at least 7 years away. They also like the CTC scheme where someone else(CTC) take the risk of failure. When I did my 757 course (run by CTC but not as a cadet with them) 2 guys out of 5 on the 757 course failed. That cost CTC not the airlines they were destined for. I understand that they reviewed their selection procedure after that as they blamed themselves rather than the cadets. So yes, the selection is tough, but so is getting a job outside of any scheme and you have to put in 110% to pass. This course however, gives you a huge leg up in the industry if you are successful. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it I reckon you gain about 5 years on an average self improver, and that's flying jets and eventually earning a jet salary.

Just be realistic about the market for a pilot with 200hrs and it will all fall into perspective. That perspective must look a lot better from within their hold pool.

Good luck.

PP

[worzel]

For a while now I have been considering doing the ATP scheme. The only reason I have not applied for the scheme is the fact that I may not get selected for the pool following the AQC. As I already have MCC, this would mean that it would be a complete waste of money. This thread has now got me thinking, that even if you get selected for the pool, the pool may be very deep and slow to empty. Pilot Pete is quite right when he saysMonarch and jmc are not of the low cost persuasion and have taken cadets in the past, amongst others. But that was in the past and a long time ago. So apart from Easyjet, which other carriers are currently using the ATP scheme?

worzel

[Go-Around]

It depends what you mean by "currently."
I believe Britannai took on about 6 cadets from CTC. I think they were all Dutch and EPST.

[MorningGlory]

Dutch? Typical! British airlines not even employing people from our own country first!! Ryanair is full of @#+#ing Yugo's!

[Go-Around]

MorningGlory;
Don't get me started.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Splat]

Or me :mad:

Grrrrrrrrrrr

[tailscrape]

Everyone,

Pilot Pete is a good friend of mine, and he is probably the most sensible and level headed bloke I have met.

What he says is true. Pete and I have flown 757's for 3 different airlines inside 2 years at the same base, and have a reasonable idea of how it is for new low hour pilots on 757's .

In addition to this, Pete did his Course with CTC , and I was a CTC/ATP scheme graduate.

I can tell you this:

Be as suspicious as you like about CTC and their motives, and you can be as jaundiced as you like too. However, the fact is you have NO CHANCE of being a CTC graduate if you do not apply!

That means you will be at LEAST 5 years behind your peers who do..........if they make the grade.

As Pete says, jmc may not need pilots this week. However, I reckon they will by May, and my bets will be that they will take a handful of low hours CTC guys on.

Fill your boots, or if you prefer you can sit around and just dream about flying a big shiny jet. The choice is yours, but no-one owes you a living. CTC included.

[sparkyw]

Hi darkronic!
I'm in exactly the same position as you, I sent off the 2nd part with no copies of exam results,passport etc. and I still haven't heard a thing. I rang them up after about a week for them to confirm they had received everything and they said'yes' with no mention of anything missing.
My opinion is that no news is good news.I know from other responses on this that some people have already had rejections and i only know of one person who has been invited down to a test day-which wasn't a date suggested on the part2 applic. details. So I'm hoping the new year will throw something up, probably wont be related to ctc.
I'm not that impressed by their administration so far, i just hope it is not a reflection on the company as a whole.
All the best

[TheDream]

tailscrape

Just finished mod 1 with Bristol, got the results on Thurday, 8/8 avg 90% so v.happy with this. I'll be doing mod 2 exams in April. All things being equal I will be applying for CTC ATP next August.

I want to get as much info as possible to prepare for this and would greatly appreciate any comment/advice on the selection process and course itself.

Thanks

[Jellyman]

Have to say i think this scheme is great for those who get through (very small percentage i believe).

However it seems to me that all the CTC scheme is doing is narrowing the number of chances for getting a job for your average wannabe ie. if more airlines join up to the CTC scheme and then you're not selected as one of the 'best' then the number of airlines you can apply to directly has reduced.
Also the CTC seem to charge great amounts of money for your psycho tests, etc when really this cost should be paid for by the recruiting airline. Is it then true you're on reduced salary for a period of time - those few who get through the CTC scheme could probably have got a jet job directly at a much lower overall cost to themselves.
Is it just me or does the CTC scheme seem to feed off desperate unemployed wannabes?

:cool:

[foghorn]

hi guys,

Thanks for the input so far. Can I just confirm for dakronic, sparkyw et al. that this thread is about

The CTC ATP scheme

which is a scheme for frozen ATPL holders looking for their first job

not

The CTC MacAlpine Sponsorship scheme

which is an ab initio sponsorship. There are other threads running on which you can post your questions and comment regarding this.

Anyway, back on the subject, as Tailscrape says, you've got to be in it to win it, even if you do stand to spend a large amount of money possibly achieving nothing. There don't appear to be many other ways in to a job at the moment, and not for the near future, neither.

However you can't criticise people for having a healthy dose of cynicism in this industry: there are too many people out there looking to relieve desperate wannabes of their hard earned cash for little in return.

cheers!
foggy.

[scroggs]

Hmm, Jellyman, don't really follow your logic! At any one time, the airlines collectively have a fairly fixed number of positions available, whether for DE type-qualified pilots or ab-initio cadets. The method of recruiting and training won't really alter that number. However, if airlines see a way of improving the quality of their intake, particularly for pilots with little or no experience, they are very likely to use it. All that changes is (or should be) the failure rate. In other words, there will be fewer expensive drop-outs later. Those who have the ability have nothing to worry about!

In fact, the only impact I see schemes like the EZ one having is to increase the opportunities for Wannabes at a time when airlines are very reluctant to invest in new people. This gives the airlines a lower-risk and relatively low cost way of getting new blood at a time when the option could be less recruiting overall - at least for the time being.

Believe me, if and when the pilot market regains its competitiveness of the late '90s, airlines will be tripping over each other to offer you jobs at less and less cost to those lucky enough to be targetted. But they will always be interested in minimising their financial risk, and so the recruiting of new pilots via professional training providers is likely to be an increasing feature of wannabes' lives.

edited to aim at the right person - sorry Foggy!

[tailscrape]

The Dream,

Congrats on your results thus far. You should be very proud. Keep up the hard work! If you want some (albeit out of date info on the ATP scheme, you can get me on: [email protected]). You should apply. You have as good a chance as any.

Jellyman,

You don't seem to grasp the point do you? With 200 hours or even let's say 1500 hours without Airline, Turbine or jet experience the chances of you getting a job with ANY of CTC's partner airlines are virtually nil.

So, for you to say CTCare shutting the door on you is wrong. If you get on the scheme they are OPENING a door for you!!

Glass half empty or half full do you think?

jmc,easy,Monarch,Britannia,Air2000......... quite frankly these guys aren't interested in you unless you are not going to screw up! Guess who guarantees that? CTC.

Think about it and stop being such a little moaner.

[Jellyman]

I bet you even wear CTC underpants don't you tailscrape.

:p

[askyoda]

Tailscrape and Pilot Pete, I agree with you when you say you have to go for the CTC Scheme to have a shot at these airlines, and you can't get a place if you don't try. However, I think the question Foghorn was raising initially was what is the percentage who are successful up to taking the ATP course, and then don't end up seeing the benefits. Everyone can see the benefits that some such as yourself have gained from the scheme, but as sensible people we are also interested in the risks. I understand that when you went through the scheme there was no cost to the successful cadets, therefore obviously no real risk. Now they are looking for an investment of 6K which is good value for money if you get a job out of it, but perhaps better invested elsewhere if nothing will come of it.

The impression I'm getting is that the odds are pretty good if you make it through the first three phases of selection and therefore worth the investment. It would be more reassuring to have actual facts to back this up though. Another factor to consider is the likely wait to gain an interview after the AQC. In my personal circumstances it may not be worth the investment if the wait is much over six months for instance.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who is closely connected with the current scheme (ie hold pool or employed in the last few months) to get a clearer impression of the current state of the scheme.

[tailscrape]

Jellyman,

No, I have a 757 strapped to my arse now. Courtesy of CTC.

Had I been asked though to wear CTC pants by them, I would have.

It all depends on how you look at it really. It is a great scheme if you get lucky, it can be frustrating if you do not.

Good luck in 2003.

[Pilot Pete]

Let's try and look at this in a more open minded way.

You want information such as statistics on pass/fail time to job etc etc. This is understandable and you are trying to do the correct thing by researching thoroughly before parting with any cash in aviation training. Again, laudable and correct. Unfortunately it is not going to do you much good in the case of the CTC scheme.

They are not their like a training school who want to advertise their pass rate in order to get you to part with the hard erned cash, not as far as the scheme goes anyhow. Sure they are selling a product which may be your first experience of them, and them of you and tied to that product is a chance for them to assesss you for possible selection on to their scheme. View it a bit like a 'buy 2 get 1 free' promotion at Tesco's. Is it wrong for them to get you to buy 2 of their products in order to get aniother one for nothing or is it a good thing. It depends upon which side of the fence you sit. They are just employing a carrot and stick which will increase their income, just like any other business. Of course they are there to make money, but they are offering something very enticing in return, a bit like the national lottery. Don't play if you don't want to, but if you do you have to accept that you may lose. If you can't afford their course then don't do it. If you do it and don't get accepted for selection then you have walked away with a product for which you have paid. View it as such. The value of that course to you is down to only you to decide.

If you sign up for their course and perform well on it they may offer you the chance to go for their ATP selection process. It all comes down to ability, determination and desire to succeed. They only want candidates who show these qualities in abundance because they are going to put their neck on the line for you. Their income comes from the airlines, not really much from you. Their reputation is built on the performance of people like you. They hold the controlling hand. Like it or not. If you think this is a scam then don't go anywhere near them, but they have a track record of placing hundreds of successful candidates in partner airlines and they will continue to do so.

The competition is stiff, but human nature being as it is you will find that only a small minority match up to exacting criteria. You have to be prepared to push yourself as hard as you can, to be willing to that little bit extra that others don't, to prove to them that you are good enough and reliable enough and determined enough to get through a jet type rating course with low hours. It is not easy and many people don't succeed. CTC are weeding the possible failures out before investing their time and money in their 'commodity'.

And what do you get in return? If successful you are put into the RHS of a jet saving many years on your peers. After a while you go permanent with that airline and can sit back and build hours on a 737/757 earning a jet salary.

So, from the day you first apply to them you are under scrutiny. You would be amazed at the reasons for people failing; from not following the instructions on the application form to not trying hard enough when in the sim on the type rating course. They will fail you at any stage if you display that you are not up to it. They will not risk their reputation on a possible failure. That's what the airlines like about them - a known product with the risk taken by someone else.

Do everything you can 'not to fail' and you will pass. Fill out the application neatly and correctly, polish your shoes and iron your shirt, don't make a 'tit' of yourself when in their company, be positive ALL the time, be determined to succeed and be mature and understanding, infact, be everything that a pilot should be and you will be exactly what they want. Most of all, rise to the challenge.

So, Askyoda, if 6 months in their holding pool would be too long for you then don't bother applying as they would weed you out for that, you don't want what they are offering enough.

Jellyman. If more airlines sign up to CTC it means that CTC would make more money and those airlines would take less risk. It does not mean that less jobs would be available for candidates to apply for. It also does not mean that standards would necessarily be higher therefore making it harder for newbees - direct entry to airlines is just as hard as CTC selection, it's just that you tend to have more experience for direct entry. This is why CTC have to be so selective, because their candidates don't have that experience to fall back on so they need to have a high level of ability to start with.

those few who get through the CTC scheme could probably have got a jet job directly at a much lower overall cost to themselves.

Wrong. If you are not at that stage yet just wait until you are. Speak to ANY pilot in an airline who wasn't sponsored and see what hardship they have gone through to get their first jet job. Some take years and years with setbacks and layoffs due to no fault or lack of ability on their part. I was one of those who had a 250hr CPL who didn't get one interview out of every single UK carrier back in 1999 when I finished training. I know of only one of my peers who got direct entry into Britannia with 250hrs. Everyone else had to take different routes, including 2 who passed CTC selection for the ATP Scheme.

So do remember that CTC is producing a product and in order for that product to be of the highest quality the ingredients have to be of the highest quality. Forget statistics, if you know that you have what it takes then follow your gut feelings. CTC are very reputable, they would not still be in flavour if what they did was not acceptable in any way. Those who have failed to get through their selection will always use the 'scam' card as a way to justify their failings.

The avaition world is tough and competitive. Welcome to the game.

Good luck Wannabes

PP

[Go-Around]

The real cynics among us might say that unless you're very lucky (or Dutch) the holding pool is quite deep at the moment!
:rolleyes:

[captainkilner]

Do any of you guy's know the entry requirements regarding the ATPL exams ie first time passes in them all ?

I heard first time passes in the CPL IR skills tests was a must ?

Reasons for asking are that i had a bad day at the office and failed some first time.

has anyone been through the selection process ?

:confused:

[Pilot Pete]

Go-Around

I'm not going to try and defend CTC against every accusation that's posted on here. As anyone can see I have posted a personal opinion from personal experience. I will however post another more broad personal opinion regarding your last comment, which fair enough, may be just a dig rather than a 'political' opinion.

If CTC have a tie up with a Dutch training school (which I believe they have), then that is business. From my experience of their selection process luck wasn't really much of a factor. That's why they had (not sure on the current process) 4 different phases - you would have to be incredibly lucky to not have the skills but get through all 4 and enter the hold pool.

It's all supply and demand and for those reading this who are considering applying to CTC (or any airline come to that) you need to be astute as to business practice and the Euro market. Any hint of negativity (despite the equality/inequality of the pilot market place) will leave you in the 'rejection letter' pile. This is not me taking the side of bringing in cheap(er) labour from the third world, just an observation for fellow 'little fish' going for interview.

Regards

PP

[Go-Around]

Pilot Pete:

I'm not knocking CTC either, I'm just speaking from little experience.

I personally know 12 people who went to CTC. 2 in 2001 and 10 in the summer of 2002. The two (British) people that went in 2001 got accepted and went to a 737 and a 757 job, all good stuff.
Of the 10 who went in 2002, 6 got jobs (guess which nationality,) and in my opinion, which might not count for all that much, the people that didn't get through were much better pilots, and i'm not the only one that thinks so.

I realise that CTC is a business, and they want to make a profit, and if they have a tie up with a foreign trainer then fine, as long as people know about it.

I'd go for it myself if I thought it was a level playing field.

And I would also wear CTC pants if it meant getting a job! :D