Building an aircraft yourself

[dubfly]

Just curious to see if anyone out there knows how much it would be to put a Cessna 150 together, or whether it's worth it. I have been offer the frame of a Cessna 150 for a couple of hundred quid and have no idea where to start looking, or how much it would cost, for an engine and instruments. Any constructive feedback would be welcomed, thanks.:confused: :)

[nonradio]

Oh dear, Dubfly. Back on earth you might look up the PFA:
www.pfa.org.uk
:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Very hard, because it's a certified aeroplane you'll have to have all sorts of approvals to do anything.

Alternatively you can build it through PFA as a permit C150 "replica", but frankly if you're going to all that effort - build something interesting, pretty, and nice to fly - which lets face does not apply to a C150.

G

[andrewc]

Don't even think about it...a decent kit plane can be
1000+ hours of work, taking workshop space during
that time, the scrag-end of a 150 might never get
to fly again.

-- Andrew

[Hairyplane]

Dubfly -

THere is a fairly strong euthenasia lobby for us wrinkley's so a cruddy old Cesspit stands no chance.

It would undoubtedly cost you an awful lot more than what it was eventually worth, and all for a fairly awful aeroplane. (The Aerobat isn't too bad - I did an instructors course on them at Bourn many moons ago. At least you can turn those upside down)

If you want a cheap project, why not look at the Rollason Condor?

Afficionado's for the rodnoC are pretty rare so they come cheap.

They are a very simple machine and have the overwhelming attribute that they are made of tree, so at least the airframe spares grow in the ground!

They aren't very fast, don't fly very far but they are fun, as cheap as chips and have wonderful crisp handling.

British made in the 60's and designed, I believe, by Druine of Turbulent fame so appearance wise - a 2 seater, enclosed cockpit, scaled-up Turb.

I learned on them (with Pontius) and the stick and rudder taildraggin' skills I learned have stood me in good stead for the ancient machinery I currently fly.

If you want to know more - I can point a regular contributor to this thread. He owns 2, an airworthy one and another that he has owned for more than 25 years - currently in bits and stored but flying until recently. I know he would sell it. He has a very low time factory-supplied O200 too.

What to do with the Cesspit? Contact your local Sub Aqua club and donate it. Great fun diving on an aircraft wreck in the local quarry.

HP

[dubfly]

Thanks for your feedback. It's the first time I've evne considered doing anything like this but there's obviously a lot more to take into account than I first imagined.;)

[stiknruda]

I have built an aeroplane from a set of drawings. :cool:

My only advice would be -

make sure that you really want to build an aeroplane for the building and learning experience. Do not fool yourself into thinking that it is an easy or inexpensive way of obtaining an aeroplane.

There are few build projects that are completed by the original builder!:(

For me it is one of the my proudest acheivements. :D


Stik

[nonradio]

Dubfly: you won't necessarily have to build one there are plenty of completed machines for sale ( suitable for all pockets)
If you ever have the misfortune to get near Milton Keynes and want to know more, send me a pvt message.
Stik: hear, hear!

[Crossedcontrols]

If you wanted to tread the middle ground, you could look at a Vans quickbuild kit, still a big comitment but not as long to build as a plans built. (as long as you like riviting) A rather nice range of aircraft, which could be worth more than the kit pice, engine and instruments when finished. see www.vansaircraft.com

CC

[tacpot]

A nice Vans RV9A will cost you £30,000. This 150 shell is being offered for a few hundred. I would say, if you have lots of time to spare, a place to store a fuselage and wings for free, and a friend who can sign off the work and is willing to do so, go for it. It may take you ten years, you may not sell it for what you have paid for it, but what a great hobby!

Of course Genghis is right, the big problem is that because it is a CofA aircraft everything will have to be done right. And that will cost a bit more. But I still believe that given time and a good wodge of cash (£10,000?), this project could be made to work.

But if you want to have it rebuilt quickly, you will probably end up paying alot more that the finished aircraft will be worth.

[Rod1]

tacpot

>>>a CofA aircraft everything will have to be done right.

I hope you did not intend to imply that PFA aircraft are not “done right”:)

Rod

[tacpot]

No, definitely not. "Right" was a bad choice of words, but having thought about it, I'm not sure what the right word should be. As I understand the situation, the CAA would require certified parts (JAR145?) with full traceability to be installed on a certified aircraft whereas with a PFA Permit Aircraft the parts fitted may not have to meet this standard.

I've realised that I don't quite understand the difference in the standards applicable to parts to be fitted to PFA Permit and CofA aircraft, so I probably should have kept my mouth shut. If anyone can enlighten me on the above point, I would be grateful.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There is a big difference between policy on permit aircraft and certified aircraft, but it's not entirely clear cut because permit aircraft covers such a wide range of types and operation.

A PFA amateur-built permit aircraft will normally require proof that materials for primary structure comes from a regulated aviation source, but tends not to be particular about which source, and full traceability to source isn't normally needed. Parts are also not discretely marked (i.e, once fitted to the aircraft only the paperwork tells you where it came from). This all brings the costs down a lot. A further difference is that whilst on a certifed aeroplane whilst virtually all work must be done / signed-for by a licensed technician (LAME) on most permit aircraft (the main exception being the higher performance warbirds) you can do the work yourself and simply get an inspector in from time to time to check your work and put duplicate signatures against your own in the logbooks.

This is of-course a little simplistic, for example PFA rules require an inspector's signature for all powerplant work but BMAA doesn't, but it gives you a flavour of the position.

There is going to be a new CAP covering the rules on permit aircraft appearing in the spring, which might help a lot of people understand permit rules, which are not well understood for the simple reason that there are very few books to find out from, and those are largely published by specific associations for specific aircraft types or classes only.

G

[Rod1]

The other difference between PFA and certified is time. A licensed engineer is working against the clock and is primarily interested in getting the job done safely in an affordable amount of time. Some PFA aircraft are maintained to very high standards because the owner/builder is happy to spend 10 hours polishing, checking and perfecting for every hour flown. Such an owner may well construct most of the parts used, often from very high-grade material, and to exceptional tolerance. If you compare such an aircraft with a public cat club aircraft you will see what I mean!

This is not to say the PFA world is perfect, far from it, but the best is very very good indeed.

Rod
(kit aircraft ordered but not yet arrived)

[nosefirsteverytime]

About building planes, Genghis, I must ask, if a certified engineer (like yerself) got a kit (like, say, a Seawind) and did the dirty, would she still be certified as homebuilt? If so, is there anyone in the country or beyond who'd be able to build it and it not to be a homebuilt? (I'm asking as I'd like to have a Seawind, but to have the option to instruct in it. {all things going well on the Aero Eng front})

Just a silly question really...........

[Genghis the Engineer]

No loopholes at all, you can't even pay somebody to build it for you. Some countries have ways around this but, it's one of the peculiarities of the UK that we have the highest standards of safety in the world, and the lowest standards of what we can then do with our aeroplanes. Frustrating, but there you go.

You couldn't even readily go to a company like Britten-Norman or Slingsby who can build their own aeroplanes, because the CAA would take the view that the type's design hadn't been investigated to CofA standards and only to permit standards. Your best bet would be to try and bring in a CofA aircraft from, say, the US, and deal with CAA on the design approval side - but that'll be far from straightforward either.

G