Judging The Flare [Archive]

FlyingForFun

6th Dec 2002, 09:22

I have to admit I have no idea how high I am when I flare. I could probably make a guess, but it's certainly not something I think about when I'm flying.

What I do is this: as you start to ease back on the yoke, make a concious effort to look off into the distance - the end of the runway is usually a good place to look. Then, gradually ease back, keeping focused on the end of the runway, and trying not to let the 'plane sink. If there's little or no cross-wind, that's it - easy ;)

Cross-winds complicate things a little - it sounds like you're probably at the stage where you're not ready to tackle cross-winds yet, but, for completeness:

If there's a cross-wind and you're using the wing-low method, you'll find you also need to increase the aileron and rudder as they become less efective. Again, keep your attention focused on the end of the runway, and just use whatever control it takes to keep the aircraft going in a straight and pointing down the runway.

The de-crabbing method takes a little practice to know when the aircraft is about to settle down, so you can de-crab just before. Depending on the type, you might be able to make this easier by choosing a nice nose-high attitude to land in which isn't necessarilly with the yoke all the way back, and just holding the yoke when you reach that attitude... that way, you decide the exact moment you touch down, rather than just waiting for it, which makes the de-crabbing easier. In types which don't like being landed with the yoke or stick anything other than all the way back, such as the Super Cub, don't use the de-crabbing method, stick to wing-low! But it works extremely well in the Europa, which doens't normally land with the stick full-back in any case.

Having said all that, everyone has their own way of flaring. The real trick is to speak to as many people as possible, try out all the ideas, and then stick with the one that works. Read all the replies here, and also read some students' diaries on Yahoo (http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Aviation/Training/Student_Journals_and_Diaries/).

Good luck - and don't forget to have fun!

FFF
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StrateandLevel

6th Dec 2002, 14:37

F for F

That sounds like prety good advice. Having instructed for many years I haven't a clue what height I flare at, it is simply not relevant.

For cross-winds, the method is determined by where the wings are, you cannot fly wing-down to the flare with a low wing aeroplane.

As for leaving power on, I have to disagree, the throttle should be closed when you touch the ground.

FlyingForFun

6th Dec 2002, 16:11

Strate,

Glad you agree with most of what I said. I suspect others won't, but, like I said, as long as what you do works for you, that's the only thing that really counts.

Confused by your comment about the throttle though. I agree with you (on some types it's nice to keep a bit of throttle until the flare, but probably close it during the flare, and certainly when touching the ground) - but I can't find anyone else who's mentioned the throttle, so who are you disagreeing with??? :confused: Or has someone deleted their post?

I don't agree about not landing wing-down in a low-winged aircraft though. I've used this technique successfully in a PA28. There are certain types where it won't work - I won't use it in the Europa because of the stress it puts on the outriggers. But every type is different, and I don't think you can make general statements like not landing wing-down in a low-wing.

FFF
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Shaggy Sheep Driver

6th Dec 2002, 16:18

Trust me - one day it will just 'click'. And then you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

SSD

Circuit Basher

6th Dec 2002, 16:32

FFF - I think Strateandlevel was referring to the comment by Longfinal:

I find leaving a little power on throughout the flare helps greatly ......

I personally tend to use slightly different technique, depending on:

A/c Type Some types tend to lose elevator / rudder effectiveness at landing speed / in the flare and a tad of power just helps provide a bit of control responsiveness

Conditions With a gusty crosswind, I prefer to keep some power on to cope with sudden lulls in airflow over the tail unit

Runway Length If I've got plenty of runway to play with and negligible crosswind, I'm happy to use the throttle just to provide a bit of a cushioning effect

My Approach If my approach and flare has been a tad short / slow, then the throttle just helps extend my flying time to reduce vertical speed / delay the stall!

Flaps Selected If I've got full flap, the whole airframe is really draggy and trying to get below stall speed really quickly - if I've got enough runway, a bit of power just cushions it a bit.

Agree that for a standard 'uncomplicated' flare, then power off and keep the runway just in sight over the nose (unless tailwheel!) works for me.

long final

6th Dec 2002, 16:34

This is the thing re. Instructors. I was mainly taught no wing down in low wings and no power. Since then, through a CPL, I was taught, and now use (landing distance permitting) wing down (pa28) and a little power. Each to their own, but a low wing will happily sit one wheel for landing and power on landings can be very helpful.

Chuck Ellsworth

6th Dec 2002, 17:05

When ever the flair height and where to look discussion comes up it never ceases to amaze me at how few Instructors understand the subject.

If you are not capable of accurately judging the flare height and the hold off height you are guaranteed to have poor landing skills.

The biggest problem in teaching landings is looking in the wrong area to judge height..... it is as simple as that.... if you cannot accurately judge your height above the runway you are not landing you are arriving.

And it is not possible to accurately judge height above the runway by looking at the far end...... period ......

I know this is the private pilot thread, however that does not mean that private pilots should not understand how to land properly.

The problem of course is poor instructors.

Cat Driver:

jonathang

6th Dec 2002, 18:49

I had the same problem, think many peeps do,

My FI solved the problem by setting the a/c up in the flare just off the runway and feeding in power to keep it flying from one end of the runway to the other.

Game me a chance to slow the process down and help get the feel of the correct attitude etc.

After that no problems.

hope this helps.

Also a good idea if the runway is long and no xwind lol.

Jonathan

big.al

6th Dec 2002, 18:52

In my early circuit days, judging the flare was the bit I found most difficult. I was either flaring too high (like a 737) and causing the instructor to reach for the throttle to avoid a sudden catastrophic sink from 15ft, or flaring to low and making my instructor think I was trying to land on the nosewheel.

Curiously I found that because the runway was so long where I was learning (6000ft) I found it difficult to concentrate on the far end of the runway whilst starting the flare. I actually found it easier to look at a fixed point around half-way down the runway, imagining that to be the runway end, as if I was doing short-field landings. That way it suddenly 'clicked' as others have said. Then to my delight, upon my first 'real' short field landing (600ft of damp grass) I nailed it right on the numbers. Still have much to learn as I swear that every landing is different, but then every flight is also a learning experience....

(and before anyone says it, no I don't think that half of 6000ft is a 'short field' - 3000ft is still a pretty damn big runway compared to what I'm now used to....)

Chuck Ellsworth

6th Dec 2002, 20:25

big.al:

To properly judge flare height you " MUST " use the area of the runway where you plan to flare as your center of sight point.

By keeping the planned flair point as your aim point during the final approach it will be your most accurate method of flairing in the proper place.

You must use the same point on the runway that you used for the approach to properly judge the correct flare height.

Any instructor who teaches you to look at the far end of the runway does not understand the correct method to judge height and or distance during the most critical part of the approach and landing.

The landing flare and hold off is the most difficult to re teach of all the bad habits that I find when re training pilots in my advanced flying program.

And there should be no reason for pilots to be taught voodoo type garbage such as look at the far end of the runway, because it just plain is not correct. The farther you look from the area where you wish to flare and land the less accurate your judgement of height above the runway will be.

Nothing annoy's me more than sloppy approaches and landings.

Cat Driver:

Flyin'Dutch'

6th Dec 2002, 20:39

Hi Chuck et al;

You rightly say that if people can not judge the height about the runway that they are going to make arrivals not landings and that most people that struggle may well find that this is due to poor instructing.

However you fail to indicate how you do it or how you instruct your pupils.

While I happily admit that with experience it is perfectly possible to land without using the looking in the distance and watch the angle of approach change method; for those in the early stages of learning the game it seems to be the method that works best.

The problem is that contrary to popular belief you only use stereoscopic view to judge distances of less than 2 meters. For distances over this we use experience.

However the method which relies on looking into the distance we use our ability to judge angles. Humans are a lot better at that than judging dept.

So what I usually do when folk find judging the flare different is just to let them say out loud look in the distance a few times during the latter stages of the approach. Works a treat.

Oh yes and when do you change from looking at the aiming point to looking in the distance? When you are about to overfly your aiming point.

Someone on here mentioned that it is best to stick with one instructor. Agree that it would be bad to have a lot of changes but a bit of variety later on will teach you different things and if ever you feel that you are not progressing I think a change of instructor is an excellent idea. At worst he/she will confirm that taking up fishing would be a good plan but quite often a new set of eyes and a different approach is just what is needed to get going again.

As always, MHO of course

FD

Chuck Ellsworth

6th Dec 2002, 23:56

Flying Dutch:

O.K. I will try and describe how I teach correct height judgement for the flare and height judgement after the flare.

First the flare:

I use a definiable point on the runway as the flare point, usually the first big hash marks and runway numbers. This is the aim point on final, during the last fifty feet in a small airplane the aim point will start to grow in size and also appear to spread out in your vision, at about twenty feet the picture will become quite clear that you are about to fly into the runway. It is at this point that I start the flare with most light bug smashers.

Note:

Rather than describe to the student what I am seeing I have them memorize what they observe at the flare point, this avoids any missunderstanding of what I am trying to describe. By using this method the student will quickly imprint the picture that she / he is seeing.

Once the flare is started you then look straight ahead down the runway to the point where apparent movement of the runway markers stop.

What is................... " Apparent movement of the runway " ..........

There is a point ahead of the airplane where the eye will pick up the movement of the runway towards the airplane. This point will change with the speed of the airplane.

For little Bug Smashers that approach in the 50 to 70 knot speed envelope the apparent movement of the runway,,, runway marks, will be approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane.

That is the distance ahead of the airplane that your center of sight should be aimed at. This will give you the proper picture that will allow you to best judge height.

The reason that this works is you can "see" the runway get closer in your peripheral vision as the runway movement close to the airplane changes. Also you can "see" the far end of the runway in the top of your peripheral vision, this is your attitude guide that allows you to change the attitude as speed and lift decays.

Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. ( Except wheel landings in taildraggers. )

If the nose blocks out your view ahead as you increase the nose up attitude during the hold off all you need do is move your head and sight line to the side and look along the side nose at the runway still using the same distance ahead that gives the picture that you need. Where apparent movement stops.

Note as you slow down the runway movement picture moves progressively closer. ( About three to five hundred feet ahead is just about right at touch down.

I have an excellent movie that was taken at Airbus Industries during my A320 training and I use it when describing what to look for when determining where the apparent runway movement stops. The beauty of the movie is I can stop it and show the point on the runway where this occurs, then start it up again.

Also the movie is perfect for the flare picture, the A320 approaches at a higher speed than a light aircraft but the picture remains the same when looking at the flare point, it just happens faster. ( oh by the way you don't actually flare an A320 like you do a Bug Smasher but the height judgement is the same. ( aided by the computer voice giving you exact height. :) )

I am willing to keep answering any and all questions about how I teach height and speed judgement, all I wish to do is make flying safer and easier for those who fly for the love of it.

My system works because I have been perfecting it for fifty years and I used to teach crop dusting where if you do not know how to accurately judge height and speed you die.

So if you all want me to keep explaining my method I am willing to type until everyone understands how I do it.

By the way:::

I use a camcorder for all my advanced flight training, when the student fu..s up it is easy to review it right after the flight and explain where it started to go wrong and how to prevent repeating the fu.. up.

Cat Driver:

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

Flyin'Dutch'

7th Dec 2002, 11:33

Hi Chuck

Thank you for your excellent post.

I think that we are talking about the same technique but may be name things a bit different!

The point where it becomes apparent that you are to smash into the aiming point and where you say you start the flare is what I call the roundout. This is where the approach path gets a roundout.

What follows after that with the holding off is what I would call the flare.

Where you say that you look at the point of no apparent motion and say this is about 500 ft away is where I tell them to look in the distance.

From your previous posting it appeared (or so I assumed) that you taught folk to keep looking at the aiming point.

FD

FlyingForFun

8th Dec 2002, 16:34

Chuck,

I will read your posts in detail when I've got more time to spare, because you usually write quality stuff. But I'm very confused by your suggestion that we should not be looking well ahead of the aircraft when flaring. Every pilot, at whatever level, that I've spoken to, and every book I've read, has suggested that you should shift your vision forwards as you flare. After gaining my PPL, I had a period where I simply could not land consistently, and I fixed the problem when I realised that I'd been "forgetting" to shift my vision, as I was taught.

In fact, in Stick And Rudder, which I think is still universally recognised as the "bible" of how to fly, Wolfgang Langewiesche says (on page 296 in my copy):

In landing, the pilot's vision is not directed downards and is not even attempting to perceive depth yet remaining between him and the ground. It is directed well forward at a region of hundreds of feet ahead of the airplane(my emphasis, not his). So your vision, according to Langewiesche, is most definitely not directed at "the area of the runway where you plan to flare," as you suggest.

As I said, I haven't read your posts in detail yet, I apologise if I've misunderstood or if you've already clarified this one.

FFF
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Chuck Ellsworth

8th Dec 2002, 17:53

F.F.F. :

Good morning.

These damn computers make it difficult for me to clearly express what I am trying to say.

So lets break this down into three distinct phases of the approach and landing.

Phase one:::

The final approach..........your center of sight should be the area on the runway where you plan to flare for the landing.

Phase two:::

The actual flare from the approach attitude to flight parrallel to the runway, to best judge the closure rate and thus your height above the flare point ( that area of the runway where you have planned to change attitude to parrellel the runway ) you should still have your center of sight focused on this point.

Phase three:::

The remainder of the landing phase..........the hold off in the level attitude where speed and lift decays and the airplane sinks toward touch down on the runway........... when you were in the approach attitude you were looking straight ahead at the runway so when the flare starts if you remain looking straight ahead your field of vision will rotate with the attitude change and you will be now looking straight ahead down the runway..........

What seperates a good pilot from a zombie waiting for contact with mother earth is the pilot who can accurately judge height and sink rate to the touchdown while constantly adjusting attitude so as to land at the most desireable attitude...speed.... sink rate for the aircraft being flown.....

Now would you try something next time you are driving down one of your Motorways? At normal motorway speed note the movement of the center line hash marks ( or center line stripes. )

You will note that directly in front of your car the stripes are blurred do to the fast movement of your closure on them.....now look progressively farther ahead and there will be a fixed distance ahead where the apparent movement of the stripes do not seem to be moving toward you.....this will be several hundred feet ahead of your vehicle depending on your eye height above the road and your speed...... that is the distance ahead that will give the best visual clues for speed , height and sink rate......

This is because your eyes will be able to compute your position in space by comparing near...center...and far distances to best form the picture...

So.......as Wolfgang stated you look well foward at a distance of several hundred feet ahead of the airplane...

But that is only after you have actually changed your attitude from the approcah attitude to the actual flare....

P.S.

Dont crash your car while playing around with the road stripes picture. :D :D

If anyone still needs more or a better description of what I am trying to say...just ask. :D

Cat Driver:
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

FlyingForFun

8th Dec 2002, 17:56

Chuck,

Have now had time to read your posts properly, and I take back my last post. I think I had exactly the same misunderstanding as Flyin' Dutch, in that I thought you were suggesting that we should continue to look at the aiming point after the point where we have reduced the vertical speed to zero.

What I had trouble with after passing my skills test was the moment where your vision switches from the aiming point, to that point a few hundred feet ahead of you. I find (and maybe this changes as you gain far more experience than I have?) that the shift in vision needs to be very conscious and deliberate - at a time when you're naturally very busy anyway, it's easy to overlook this.

Anyway, thanks for a great post (if anyone is thinking of skipping over it because it's too long, don't - go and read it!) I always knew that you need to shift your vision forwards, but never really understood the science of it, or the exact amount. Between you and Flyin' Dutch, I've learnt yet another useful thing from PPRuNe!

FFF
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Chuck Ellsworth

8th Dec 2002, 18:23

F.F.F. :

Great, glad you are reading Pprune and we all get to share our ideas and experiences.

Now to make my life complete if only the flying schools ensured their instructors do in fact understand the science of flying I would have no need to wear out my fingers on this computer trying to explain how to fly...I can think of better use of my fingers..Heh Heh HEh...

Finally ....the real secret to top quality instruction is not only knowing how to do it but how to instill confidence in your student.....

This confidence will only come when the student suddenly discovers just how simple all this really is.... by demonstrating to her / himself that, hey I can really do this....

Now, I am also a marriage councellor and love expert, anyone having problems in that area??? :D :D

Cat Driver:

Circuit Basher

9th Dec 2002, 07:03

Chuck / FFF - as usual, what we have come to expect: quality posts, not always saying the same thing the same way, but educating the Forum and provoking contemplation in the mind of the reader. Well done to the pair of you!

On a lighter note, from today's AvBrief:

Student pilot to irate instructor:
"You're simply impossible to satisfy. I just finished navigating successfully through a boiling fluid swirling around a rotating sphere that is hurtling around a fusion reaction source at thousands of miles per hour. This system is moving in a circular motion around a black hole at who knows what speed, while the space it takes up is expanding. And then I bounced the landing six inches. SIX MEASLY INCHES! Get off my freakin' back!" :D :D

aidanf

9th Dec 2002, 07:24

Guys, thanks very much for all the comments - I'm looking forward to next Thursday when I get to try and bring them all together and get the PA38 on the ground smoothly and in the way that I had expected. I guess experience will really be the key in giving me the tools to recognise where I'm going right, and wrong. There's a huge learning curve between basic flying and the circuits - with everything now happening a lot faster - 300ft checks, climbing turns, radio calls, in-flights checks, BUMPFHC check then flying a measured base and final. I've only done two lessons of circuits - four on the first, three on the second, and I seem to be just adding something each time - so now I've got it done to flying the circuit fairly well and a smooth approach to get my over the threshold within the correct parameters.

I guess next stage now is taking on board the great tips from this thread, working them into the mix and trying to get that final part right. I did it twice the last time out successfully but if I was honest I'd say that was more luck that good technique. I'm training at a relatively quiet commercial airport which has those lights on either side of the flare point - in the early stages of trying to get the 'final' right it helps, but I think it may be a bad thing in the long run as I really need to learn to gauge it correctly myself rather than waiting for red lights to change colour!!!

Finally, I'm sure it's been said before but this is one amazing web-site for this kind of information. There have been loads of times when I've returned from my lesson, so excited that I forget to ask my instructor some question that I'd planned to - get on-line, check out pprune and there's my answer. Great stuff - but only because you experience guys take the time to help out raw amateurs such as myself. Thanks!!!

...just noticed that in my last post I mentioned that I'm doing my training in a PA38. Don't know what that is, but I'm pretty sure it's something a lot more difficult than the PA28 that I am actually learning to fly in!!!
- Doh!!

Grim Reaper 14

9th Dec 2002, 14:38

My instructor used a great technique with me. He put £50 (or equivalent) in his pocket and told me that if I crossed the threshold in good shape he would tell me. Once that happened, with power at 'idle', approx 10 feet above the ground, I would be able to keep the £50 if I could stay off the ground and crash into the field at the end of the runway. Try as I might, I could not do it, but I really got the hang of that 'straight and level' stuff. It's just that I did it in the 'wrong place', sank really slowly and eventually landed.

Thankfully it wasn't a £50 bet, or I would have been skint after a couple of circuits!:rolleyes:

dde0apb

27th Jan 2003, 05:13

Hi aidanf

Just like others said, it really does come right with practice. For the PA28 I fly, I rather liked my instructor's suggestion when I was doing my night training that you should round out when the runway lights seem to be at shoulder height.

Don't know if that applies to the daytime though: others will be better qualified than me to know whether it works in the daytime.

The other thing that helped me, being a text book sort of person, was Alan Bramson's "Make better Landings." I fear it's out of print, but abebooks (http://www.abebooks.co.uk) (search for Bramson, Alan and the title) currently has a number of them.

Have fun Thursday.

Final, 3 Greens

27th Jan 2003, 05:58

AidanF

This subject comes up every few months and the person who starts it normally reports back a few months later that they have passed their skills test.

So (1) you are not alone and (2) you will get your licence too if you persevere.

Best of luck and make sure that you let us know the good news when it happens.

F3G

Sensible

27th Jan 2003, 08:30

Landings were difficult for me too. The method which works for me is to look at the spot (the numbers if on a hard runway) where I intend to land and if that spot moves up the canopy then I need a tad more power, if it moves down, a tad less. I keep looking at that same spot using rudder as necessary to keep that spot in the centre of the canopy. I still use the same spot to adjust my descent until round out and then at round out, (when I have just lost sight of my landing spot) I transfer my vision to the end of the runway and use my peripheral vision to keep the airplane level and just hold the airplane at the same height (in the flare) pulling the stick/yoke back until the airplane stalls.

Things that I found were essential (to me) for a smooth landing were in order of importance 1. proper use of pitch, power and trim so that the descent was smooth down to the threshold. (Borrow a handbook for the airplane you are flying and study the recommended power and speed settings for approach). 2. relaxed use of the yoke, that means just two or three fingers of one hand only. If you need more than two fingers to control the airplane then you haven't trimmed it out properly! 3 Don't fixate on any one outside reference when in the round out, peripheral vision is essential both to the left and right to check that the airplane is level, that it is neither ascending or descending during the flare. 4. Hold the airplane off the ground by gradually increasing back pressure on the yoke to maintain the same altitude in the round out to hold the airplane off the runway, don't even think about pushing the stick/yoke forward to get the airplane onto the ground more quickly because that will undoubtedly result in a lot of tyre smoke and possible a bounce or even worse, a balloon and collapsed nose gear! 5. Proper seating position, if you are too low in the seat then you will lose vision over the nose too quickly and that just makes it more difficult to judge the round out height and attitude in the flare.

Many pilots who make bad landings are really making a good landing near impossible because of a bad approach. If the approach isn't good and smooth then the landing definitely won't be (except for an experienced pilot ie the instructor taking over to save the airplane!) I deliberately haven't mentioned xwind landings to save confusion and you won't be doing these yet. Good luck! Experience is like old age, it comes to us all in the end!

Kingy

27th Jan 2003, 11:03

I agree with Chuck.

Keeping your eyes fixed on the end of the runway is absolute bilge. First off, as you progress to 'real' aircraft you will find that the view ahead reduces to nil in the flare (often the whole approach). Secondly, how can you gauge your height from looking at a point that may be 3000ft ahead of you? What if you land on a runway much shorter or longer.. won't the picture look wrong leading to errors?

It always amazes me how little you need to see to gauge the flare height. Your brain is very good from picking up little clues from whatever view out you have. Don't over analyse just DO IT .

A couple of points that helped me whilst training were:

1. Forget the ASI once in the flare - really, the 'numbers' part of the flight is over at this point it’s all about feel from here in.

2. As an instructor once said to me 'Never rush the last two seconds of any flight' - good advice!

Kingy

Barnside

27th Jan 2003, 11:46

Chuck said

Any instructor who teaches you to look at the far end of the runway does not understand the correct method to judge height and or distance during the most critical part of the approach and landing.

Two responses to this;

1. Surely looking as far ahead as possible is the best way to judge rate of descent - nothing else?

2. Aiming at the landing point becomes a challenge in something like a Super Cub when most of the landing area disappears in the flare.

Paul.

Chuck Ellsworth

27th Jan 2003, 17:38

Barnside:

Looking as far ahead as possible will only make judging the proper hold off height ( 1 foot ) more difficult.

I repeat any instructor who teaches you to look at the far end of the runway for height judgement during the hold off portion of the landing does not understand the subject, taking that advise will only insure you will remain as inept as your instructor.

Would you please go back in this thread and read all my comments and advice on this subject.

If after reading the all the advice I have given here you are still not quite sure what I am describing please post back here and I will try and further explain it.

Cat Driver:

rottenlungs

27th Jan 2003, 22:08

AidanF

I have recently gone solo in a PA-38 and know how you feel.

I did about 5 lessons in the circuit (3 hours maybe) before being let loose. I too found the approach easy but knowing when to switch from the aim-point to the flare view (whichever method you use) quite difficult. My instructor said that the best way is to wait until the aimpoint disappears under the nose and then look down the end of the runway. Initially I found that hard to do, and tended to look down the side to the ground near me. Eventually I made myself do as he had suggested (look away over the nose to the end of the runway) and it worked. The lesson after that I was on my own! I`ve done about an hour and half solo now and whilst my landings are far from pretty, I can consistently land the Tomy without too much trouble.

keep at it, I soloed about 2 weeks ago and the grin has still not quite worn off! It will suddenly click and you will think "I know how to do it..."

Good luck

Lungs

QDMQDMQDM

27th Jan 2003, 22:31

The thing that really stuck for me when I was first getting my licence was to flare 'when you feel the runway come up round your ears'. In other words, when it no longer looks flat from above, but has a feeling of enveloping the aircraft.

Works for me mostly, although flying almost exclusively out of small, narrow, short grass strips I now have a lot more trouble pulling off a decent landing on acres of concrete (ugh, revolting stuff!).

Anyway, ignore what I say and listen to Chuck because I am, and let's be honest about this, a low-time ignoramus with an unwarrantably large mouth.

QDM

Chuck Ellsworth

28th Jan 2003, 00:29

QDM:

There is only one " SURE " " SAFE " method to learn the flare height point visual clues and that is with a competant instructor who will demonstrate the manouver over and over until the visual picture is imprinted in your memory bank.

Trying to explain the visual impression that the mind retains will vary from person to person.

However once the student learns the clues by repetitive lessons the picture for that person is printed in the brain.

As I have previously stated I use a camcorder and we replay the lessons after the flight. The beauty of this is the ability to freeze the picture and discuss exactly what the student was "seeing" and what the mind was "Visualizing " at that precise moment in time. There is quite a signifigant difference between what the eyes see and the mind visualizes.

Lets think a moment about where an airshow pilot is looking during a ribbon cut pass.

From the decending approach the airplane is flared to parallel the runway and then rolled to the inverted position once the flare to level flight is finished the ribbon is now kept in sight as the target. From that point to the cut you can bet your ass the pilot is using the ribbon as the target aim point and height judgement will be judged by pereferial vision.

The reason that I use this very unusual example is only to point out that to judge where any target is we look at the target.

Landing an airplane is no different, to judge how close you are to your target ( The flare point ) you keep the intended point as the center of focus.

Naturally once flared we look ahead to a point where we can see our height change as we lose speed and lift to just prior to runway contact and at that height "about one foot" we stop the airplane from losing any further height and it will finally quit flying and land. Looking into the distance such as the far end of the runway is not the way to judge height during the latter part of the landing, about five hundred feet ahead is where to look.

Now I have probably really fu.... it all up by using the ribbon pick up as an analogy for landing............ hopefully everyone will get the point I was trying to explain....you cannot judge height looking into infinity.

Jeeesus I may have really muddied the water this time. :D :D

If there is confusion with the ribbon pick up explination let me know and I will edit it. :confused: :confused:

Cat Driver:

aidanf

28th Jan 2003, 07:12

Wow this thing just keeps on going. I originally posted this thread waaaayy before Christmas when I'd come back from doing my second circuit detail and some questionable landings (including one where my brain died and my left foot decided to do what it always does to slow mechanical things down - the resultant strong a/c turn to the left was greeted by a friendly 'that'll kill ya' from my instructor!!) I haven't been up since - nothing to do with the weather as my time slot seems to be impervious to all weather systems (guarantee you that whatever the conditions in the morning the clouds will part, the rain will stop and the wind will drop 15-20 minutes before I'm due skybound!!) This only makes it all the more frustrating for me as I had a client go bang soon after originally posting this thread which ensured I had a really super Christmas and no funds for flying:(
However I'm now just over a week away from getting back in the saddle and my thread re-appears!!! Couple this with the amazing weather conditions my slot consistently gets and I'm beginning to think that someone is trying to tell me something. No doubt I'll go and ****** it all up again, but guys, I really appreciate the support and advice this forum offers us aspirers. Thanks

feet dry

28th Jan 2003, 09:33

Aidan,

only seen my method posted one other time ergo must be wrong!!!!????!!!!

As taught.....on the approach try to maintain the location of the aiming point in the canopy

as the aim point is approached transfer the focus to the end of the runway using your peripheral vision to guage the rate of descent in the final stages....

This is the only way I found which actually works

Chuck Ellsworth

28th Jan 2003, 14:04

Feet Dry:

I am sure you "think" that the method you describe works for you.

However whoever taught you that method has ensured you will never be capable of accurate height judgement.

I find it really sad, that after all the years we have been flying airplanes flight instruction has degenerated to such an abysmal low.

Cat Driver:

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

gingernut

28th Jan 2003, 14:53

Aidanf, fascinating post. I too had simillar problems prior to my solo, and PPRuNe replies were most helpful.

I'm still not quite sure about the exact science involved in making an accurate safe landing, but here are a few of my observations:

1) Well trimmed accurate approach certainly lightens the workload prior to landing.

2) The more circuits I completed, the worse my performance. With hindsight, I guess the release of "fight or flight" hormones after just turning onto finals wasn't helping. T think this may have been cocking up my peripheral vision, (and hence cocking up my height judgement), when it was needed most. (Over the numbers). In this respect, "looking at the far boundary" certainly helped me, although I find I rely on this less and less now.

Interestingly, I find my performance improves when I am not accompanied by instructor or examiner. (Or is this my perception?).

Anyway keep at it. Remember those hill starts/three point turns/emergency stops when learning to drive ? Second nature now.

I think my posting on the subject was around Feb 2002.

feet dry

28th Jan 2003, 14:54

Chuck,

I am rather curious...you do seem to be of the opinion that you are right and everyone else is wrong. To help please could you elaborate on your experience TT, types and so on......

Chuck Ellsworth

28th Jan 2003, 15:27

feet dry:

Hi:

I do not think that I am right and everyone else is wrong. Flying is a predictible and measurable exercise, there are correct and incorrect methods of accomplishing each and every exercise invloved in properly and safely learning to fly an airplane.

Well actually I do think I am right with regard to the most reliable method of judging flare height ( the subject of this thread ) and the most reliable method of judging height above the runway to complete the landing in the most professional way.

You will find that many instructors will agree with my method so I am not alone in my method of teaching.

To answer your question.

Total time?

Somewhere around thirty thousand hours,( all accident free ) I have sort of lost track of the exact figure..

Types?

Fixed wing.......Mooney Mite to Airbus A320

Helicopters..... R22 to Sikorsky S61

Gyroplanes...( I hold a USA Commercial Gyrplane license ) Mc J2 and several experimental types...

But for the purpose of this discussion I am an advanced flight instructor that started advanced flight training over forty years ago teaching high command control flying, training Agricultural pilots. To day my business is advanced flight training, I work world wide and all my customers are by refeeral only. Therefore they seem to believe in my methods.

For the sake of interest and to allow me to compare our thoughts on this subject what is your TT , types and so on...?

Oh by the way I will be back in London in a couple of months, if your instructor would like some dual I could maybe make the time to re train him / her. I charge a minimum of USD $300.00 per day.

Cat Driver:

feet dry

28th Jan 2003, 15:43

Chuck,

TT ~150hrs

I do not profess to talk from the expert point of view though I do find this rather fascinating.

My instructor (I have alluded to him in other threads so I apologise to continue canonising the chap), his resume could read almost identical to yours though with more emphasis on military flying.

The method of judging the flare (using peripheral vision to keep track of the horizon as the plane sinks) is the way I was taught and is the method which works best for me. It is quite difficult for the human eye to judge height based on a visual reference directly in front of the canopy regardless of focus (incidentally I would suggest the end of the runway is not the same as focusing on infinity). This is principally because of the minimal shift of your point of focus in relation to a fixed point of the canopy.

Therefore, as taught, I prefer to use my peripheral vision to assess the rate at which the horizon is creeping up the canopy to the sides of the aircraft, which consequently is an excellent guide to the rate of descent.

You made reference to the use of peripheral vision in a previous post, so I think you would agree the use of the whole field of vision is extremely important for flying (or indeed any activity which requires a fair degree of spacial awareness).

I may well be reading your posts incorrectly however.

High Wing Drifter

28th Jan 2003, 16:34

Feet Dry,

Do you get the feeling that Chuck enjoyed answering your question :p

Chuck,

I never felt particuarly comfortable staring up ahead just when my brain says "WTF are you looking up yonder for? You are about to hit the deck look down...now...please!" Anyways, I could grease my landings prior to and just after solo. They have gone off a little now but I think I have it sussed for then next time.

However, all these methods seem a little too mechanical too me. I suspect all these prescriptive methods serve to teach you how to land on your home runway but not at a narrower, uphill, shorter one with different features around-and-abouts.

I get the feeling that it will click soon. Is it like learning to use the clutch in a car for the first time? There is no text that can describe exactly when to do what, you just learn how and when so that it eventually becomes instinctive instinctive.

Actually, maybe it is a lot like a good golf swing - trust your instincts and hit the fairway, think about it and take a provisional :rolleyes:

Anybody else concure with my limited observations thus far?

Chuck Ellsworth

29th Jan 2003, 15:36

feet dry:

It is important that all pilots understand the safest method of judging the flare height.

So once again I must go back to your description.

Quote:

" as the aim point is approached transfer the focus to the end of the runway using your perepheral vision to guage the rate of descent in the final stages"

Here is what I suggest you do.

The most demanding flying for accurate height judgement in the flare is crop dusting ( agricultural flying ) there are some chemicals that must be applied almost touching the crop, such as fungacides.

Find your instructor to fly as a safety pilot and then make your approach to the runway at a height of one hundred feet above the start of the runway.

At that point you lower the nose to at least a thirty degree angle to reach the flare point in the shortest space possible.

The flare must be smooth and accurate to arrive at two feet above the runway in the level attitude.

Note:

You must hold thirty degrees nose down until you start the flare.

If you do try this you must judge the flare height as described in your previous post....... you must raise your focus to the end of the runway before you start the flare.

Show this to your instructor and if He /She feels this to be to dangerous, then find an ag. pilot to fly with you to prevent you from flying into the runway.

Be extreemly careful and do this by degrees, start off with a very shallow dive to the runway, gradually working to the thirty degree nose down dive.

Normally I would not advise such an exercise, however with a competant instructor to prevent you hitting the runway this will be safe.

Let me know how accurately you could judge flare height by looking ahead at the end of the runway before you commence the flare.

Be careful. Be very, very, very careful and most important your safety pilot instructor "MUST" understand how to judge height or you will hit the runway....

For Gods sake do not try this all by yourself,....

Cat Driver:

Final 3 Greens

29th Jan 2003, 15:48

Chuck

At that point you lower the nose to at least a thirty degree angle to reach the flare point in the shortest space possible.

Sounds like the 'Divine Wind' technique as practiced in the Pacific area in 1944-45.

:D

feet dry

29th Jan 2003, 16:14

I think this will continue....

Chuck,

With respect the subject of the thread is how to judge the flare, the crop duster analogy is for judging height above the ground so as not to hit it.

The above do not (to me) really imply the same thing i.e. in the flare you are intentionally making contact with terra firma - the aim/intention of the pilot is to accurately judge the rate of sink.

Out of interest, when instructing level turning where do you tell your instructees to maintain focus?

bluskis

29th Jan 2003, 16:31

Dry Feet

The flare and the following moments are also taken up in trying to prevent the plane from landing, or hitting the ground, until it is ready to .

That does not, I think, apply to wet landings, when a firm arrival is considered better.

As far as focussing on the end of the runway, on some types the end of the runway will not be visible.

Having said all that, I am not sure where I look, so I will check on my next flight, and probably thump in as a result.

Chuck Ellsworth

29th Jan 2003, 20:06

Feet Dry:

When turning I have my students look at the horizon, either natural outside the airplane (VFR ) or mechanical / electronic inside the airplane ( IFR )

I believe you and I have a problem with semantics, the flare is that point in the approach to a landing where the attitude is changed from the approach attitude to the level attitude to parrallel the runway, from that point we have passed the flare and are now in the holdoff portion of the landing proceedure.

My analogy of the steep approach used in Ag. flying to the flare to parrellel the ground is exactly the same manouver as the flare to land. ( only steeper and requiring a far more accurate and faster attitude change. )

When judging the point of flare we must be able to accurately judge closure rate with the target ( the point on the runway where you plan to flare ) proper judgement of closure rate at a constant attitude and speed will result in height judgement.

To be profficient in this exercise requires two factors.

(1) Proper instruction.

(2) Practice through repetative approaches and flare judgement of time, & distance to go before impact with the runway. Once burned into the memory receptors it will remain there forever.

The real problem we are having here is poor instructional techniques in ab initio training.

Otherwise I would not be here wearing out my key board for nothing. :D :D

Except the satisfaction of helping others because I care.

Cat Driver:

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

Dop

29th Jan 2003, 22:10

The helpful thing my instructor told me to help me judge the height of the flare was to imagine sitting at the front of the top deck of a double-decker bus, and to flare at that height.
He also told me to switch my focus to the end of the runway, but the double-decker analogy really helped give me a concrete idea of how high to be.

The real problem I had with the flare was overdoing it and having to go-around. I still tend to be a bit twitchy on the flare, having to make very small adjustments following each pull back on the yoke.

Chuck Ellsworth

29th Jan 2003, 22:16

DOP:

Exactly at what point in the flare or hold off were you told to look at the end of the runway?

By the way the height of a double deck bus is a good example of where to start the flare.

Also go back and read all the explinations I have given here with regard to looking at the far end of the runway.

I have no idea of where such rubbish as this came from, but I can guarantee it makes for sloppy landings due to poor height judgement.

Cat Driver:

essouira

30th Jan 2003, 07:48

As someone said earlier, this thread just goes on and on..........
But I think there's good reason for that.
I'm another instructor putting in my twopence worth. Chuck's postings make a lot of sense. I agree that, for many students, the "double decker bus" or "looking out of your first floor window" method gives them the required picture and they get the flare height quite quickly.
For others, this doesn't work as easily. I was one of those students myself. What I do, and what I teach, is to keep focusing on the aiming point whilst using peripheral vision to clock when the surface at the edge of the runway stops being blurry and starts to have texture. This is, for people with normal vision, the "double decker" height. It's difficult to explain in writing but has brought an enormous grin of understanding onto the faces of many students who were struggling to judge the height. When the blurry green at the side starts to look like grass, we level off.
I demonstrate it by firstly flying along the runway at this height and then getting the student to fly along the runway. When this is all ok, we fly a third circuit and flare again. Immediately, we cut power and look at the end of the runway......thereafter see other posts. It seems to work for many students who are passed on to me for "tweaking" when other instructors say that they can't sort out the flare. Hope this helps some of you who may be finding it difficult.
Another thing that seems to help my students is to understand that there are three distinct phases - the approach, the flare and the hold-off - and that we look at different places as we change from one to the other. I belive that if taught well, this will mean that students will learn to judge any runways, not just land on the one they have memorised !
Like Chuck, I'm not saying that I'm right and everyone else is wrong - just explaining what has worked for a lot of people. It will come good for you too in the end - if you persevere. Happy landings.

Circuit Basher

30th Jan 2003, 09:48

For those who learnt at Bournemouth with a certain club, all I have to add to this is think 'Elephant Height' ;) ;) :D

Trouble was, when learning, I could never get consistency between whether they were babies or fully-grown elephants!!

juswonnafly

30th Jan 2003, 10:38

I'm with 'Feet Dry' on this one.

Chuck......calm down, it's only a forum fercrisakes :rolleyes: ,I do agree with 'Feet Dry', you do seem to place youreslf on a pedestal and everyone else is wrong:*

How about this.......point at the ground until you think you are about to crash unless you do something about it..........then look further along the runway and try to defy physics and not land (but with out going up again)...........Hey Presto...you've landed:D

Dunno what all the fuss is about...it aint rocket science:)

JWF:D

Dop

30th Jan 2003, 11:36

Chuck:
I was told to look to the end of the runway just as I started the flare - start to pull back and look long as I do so.

Circuit Basher:
Are those African Elephants or Indian Elephants? ;)

Aerobatic Flyer

30th Jan 2003, 13:18

Juswonnafly - it maybe ain't rocket science, but a lot of people seem to get it consistently wrong even when they've got a reasonable number of hours experience.

I haven't noticed Chuck trying to "put himself on a pedestal". He knows a lot more than most of us here, and has thought about it a lot more as well. I think most of us value his insights, even if he does have to repeat himself a few times.

From my limited experience, he's right about the uselessness of looking to the end of the runway during the flare. It might work after a bit if you always fly the same aircraft from the same runway, but if the runway slopes (or has a bump, or dip), or if you change from a nosewheel to tailwheel aircraft.... you're not going to land predictably and consistently.

Chuck's technique described on page 2 of this thread works well for me (unless I'm in a Piper Cub, in which case I'll often touchdown too early and bounce... :o ). The "20ft" point is when I'm about 3 seconds away from impacting the aiming point - this helps if there's a bit of a slope, and you need to start the flare when you height above the ground is more than 20ft.

Chuck Ellsworth

30th Jan 2003, 15:17

Dop:

Try reading and thinking about what I have tried to explain here, then very carefully experiment with the method I have suggested.

Once you get it figured out you will be a far better pilot.

And all the best in your future flying.

Juswonnafly:.

I am always very calm, although I occasionaly get annoyed when I see people who paid a small fortune to learn to fly not knowing what in hell they are doing.

I do not have the need to elevate myself on a pedestal, when I wish to elevate myself I get in an airplane or helicopter, both of which I pride myself in understanding the physics of correctly operating.

For the sake of comparison please read all the comments on this thread that I have taken the time to write, trying to help total strangers in the private pilot community. Then read your advise in your last post.

I would with respect suggest that maybe you should reassess your thoughts and maybe put some rocket science in your thinking, it may improve your understanding of the subject.....which I feel to be very important, what good is flight training if they can't land the damn thing after flying it?

Cat Driver:

juswonnafly

30th Jan 2003, 17:58

just my point......this thread goes on and on and on and..........................................

;)

OK OK.....a bit harsh.....I do apologise Chuck. However I would suggest that perhaps it is a case of 'what works for some' and all that............

JWF:D

Chuck Ellsworth

30th Jan 2003, 23:04

juswonnafly:

I see you are an instructor.

Go to my post of Jan. 29 at 16:36.

You experiment with the exercise I suggested, then come back and let me know how it went.

Chuck

feet dry

31st Jan 2003, 07:11

A thought for the instructors here then....

As I think more on this subject it occurs I spent a great deal of time with my instructor ensuring the approach to the flare was spot on. It follows that if the aircraft is properly set-up and trimmed on the approach, I will cross my aim point to commence the flare everytime. Being able to land on the numbers every time, at several different fields, does not make me big-headed but it does highlight the quality of my instruction.

Specifically for the instructors, which sector of the landing cycle do you feel is most important and what are your criteria for telling the instructees to bin an approach?

essouira

31st Jan 2003, 10:13

Now you're all going to say that this is a cop-out but .......
As all our instructors told us, I'm sure, "If you fly a controlled (or even perfect) circuit you have a much better chance of a making a controlled (or even perfect) approach. If you fly a controlled (or even perfect) approach you have a much better chance of getting the flare right. If you fly a controlled (or even perfect) flare you have a much better chance of getting the hold-off right. And if you fly a controlled (or even perfect) hold-off, you have an excellent chance of completing a perfect landing."
So I'm not sure that any phase is more important than any other phase but they do all rely on each other (as feetdry has pointed out). Of course the nearer the ground you get, the less margin for error. Which is why I prefer to see a student make an early decision to go around rather than trying to "rescue" what we both know is turning into a messy approach. But I'm only one of a million instructors so let's wait and see what the others think !

juswonnafly

2nd Feb 2003, 10:53

Chuck........

I have re read your posts and have to say :O I am much more inclined to agree with you (ouch, that hurt to say!).

As a matter of interest I had a student yesterday morning who was on his first 'proper' circuit session. We discussed this very topic before and after the lesson. I can see that principally we are all more than likely saying the same thing but in different (confusing?) words. Analizing how I do it I would say that I keep the initial aiming point in view until about 20 ft or so (point out to student to look down to left of a/c as well) then when starting the flare I would say I look ahead about 100 to 200 yards, this provides depth perception as the a/c sinks closer to the ground. Looking at the far end is not so much a consious thought but the far end is in peripheral vision and provides good referance for lateral aim.

Also my next student was learning glide approaches and during one of these (when he was clearly too high/close) I took over and demonstrated a max flap VFE dive to the aiming point, this naturally required good judgement (;) ) when at the flare and it was at this moment that I realised exactly where I do look for height reference.

Lastly I do wish to apologise for previous remarks, they were sharp and non productive (best excuse I can come up with is I was having a bad hair day!)

Happy Landings

JWF

Chuck Ellsworth

2nd Feb 2003, 15:44

JWF:

Thanks.

When even one instructor goes out and experiments with my suggestions and thereby forms a new method of thought, actions, and speech thereby improving his / her instructional methods it makes my efforts worthwile. :D

Next maybe you could experiment with that point in the distance where apparent movement of runway markings seem to stop moving, for optimum point of sight for judging height changes during the rest of the hold off and landing.

Good luck:

Cat Driver:

El Desperado

4th Feb 2003, 17:11

I have more experience than most of you here and only a fraction of Chuck's. 3000 hours, mostly on narrow and wide-body jets... current type is 757/767.

I took a PA38 up for a blast in Florida yesterday for the first time in nearly five years with an instructor. Great fun, nice and easy circuits, beautiful approach and then....

The instructor said the only guy who had flared higher than me was a 747 captain he'd had in the other week..... go-around, try again. Try as I might, I could not get the height correct as I have been too conditioned with the view from a 767 flight-deck.

My instructor pretty much said what Chuck did, but I couldn't erase a few years of 'runway picture' from my head in an afternoon. I'm sure if I gave it a couple of days, I'd be there, but you peops can probably (actualy, definitely !) put a light a/c down better than I can.

Once you've been taught correctly and seen the picture, you will be able to land properly, on any length of runway that is appropriate to your type. Do not doubt it. Just make sure your instruction is good ! Experience will make your approaches and landings straightforward, if not always easy.... hell, I can land a 180-tonne aircraft onto an 8000ft runway and have loads to spare, but I had to go around in a PA38 ??!! Humbled... it's easy to forget that light aircraft flying is a definite learned/trained skill and not just some puddle-jumpers that gets in the way during an approach into Sanford.

Take all the info on board at this stage, but when you are more experienced, you will be able to sort through the instruction and pick & choose which parts you want in your own flying reportoire. At this point in your flying, though.. sponge it up, especially from guys as well versed as Chuck.

All the best

bluskis

4th Feb 2003, 19:21

The transition from airliner back to little airplane resulted in our single Commanchee being dumped from a great height into Swansea some years back.

However I am sure the transition from airliner to single takes a lot less hours than the transition from single to airliner.

Its nice to know the professionals still like our sort of flying.

El Desperado

4th Feb 2003, 19:45

Ah yes, but bear in mind we generally put the automatics in at around 1500ft after T/O, and take them out at around the same height on landing, unless it is a fantastically good day ! We don't pole it about like light a/c pilots.

I've archived Chuck's instruction here and I am determined to go back and sort it out.... I'm used to flying by numbers, so I need some science to help me back into the smaller machines.

Do not think that light or general aviation is in someway inferior to heavy jet flying. It is not. It requires a different skill set, approach and mind-set. You can be the guy who does the £100 burger flights every Summer, or you can learn as much as possible about aviation and maximise the license and skills you have.

I am now just able to afford light a/c flying, and I am learning a lot of skills I have long since forgotten, including landing ! Sorry, what was that... I need to use the rudder for turns ??!!

geo7863

30th Sep 2006, 22:55

I flew gliders in the military (sports not combat, im not that old) and had difficulty landing, either plonking her down too early and rather hard or landing loooooooooong.

I was learning to fly a three axis ultralight (czech TL-96) and had the same problems.. I finally did my PPL on Zlins and found they just about landed themselves, with over 300 landings (i'm still a sprog) and only three or four which have made me wince... my instructors taught me to choose an aim point and watch that, then when I can judge about a metre up (severe ground rush at that height) switch my line of sight to the horizon and start the flare with progressive back movement of the stick till its on its back stop, by which time I'm on the ground and slowing down

However I have recently been type rated for the C172 and find I'm landing loooooooong again and ballooning in the flare, even with 40 degrees of flaps, in the Zlin I use under half the strip in the Cessna i'm well over half, which makes touch and goes rather hairy at times (specially with that poxy electric flaps switch which tends to close the flaps totally on me)

I guess as everyone says its practice practice practice.... but I'd rather fly the Zlins to tell the truth, the Cessna handles like a transit van compared to the zlins

I

kookabat

1st Oct 2006, 04:34

To steal a line from another PPRuNer:

Holy ancient threads, Batman!

chetcutijean

24th Jul 2012, 10:34

Hey there! I'm a PPL student and I have been flying for quite some time now and I am currently in the circuits stage. I did perform glide approaches, flapless and full flaps approaches so I am quite familiar with the different configurations. The problem is that I can't seem to fully understand and furthermore, put it into practice, the idea that pitch alters the speed and power changes the approach path.

Whenever I end up on a low approach path, I do add power yet alter the pitch setting also. The reason behind this is that I do not feel comfortable with the aircraft having to recover from a low approach at such a slow rate (ie: it takes too long to return to its proper approach path), thus I usually pitch up. Is this a correct technique? On the other hand, when it comes to flaring, I do not always carry out a smooth landing though in general, my instructors advises me just to hold the aircraft a little longer and pull back on the control column a little further.

The technique that I have been thought is that a few feet above the runway, you level out with the runway and hold the aircraft in that position, gradually increasing back pressure until the main wheels touch the ground then gently lowering the nose. I do not have any problem with this technique yet would greatly appreciate any tips and tricks from your experiences as pilots. Thanks :)