Hold Entry Question...

[Flying Clog]

Having a bit of a brain fart:

If you are on a track of 120 and told to enter the hold at a VOR on the 280 inbound radial with right hand turns is it a parallel entry?

I'm confused as to whether the '280 inbound radial' is the inbound track to the VOR (280 track) ie. the holding pattern taking place to the northeast of the VOR, or whether it's the radial from the VOR that you'll be tracking inbound to (100 track) ie. holding to the southwest of the VOR?

Hope that doesn't sound too confusing, looking forward to your response,

Cloggy

[KitKatPacificuk]

My interpretation of this is that the hold is to the SW of the VOR. 280 radial is from the beacon. So as you approach the beacon on a track of 120 you would have to do a Direct entry. Over the beacon turn right to the outbound leg which is a track of 280. So the Inbound track would be 100 degrees not 280. You are holding on the radial not flying down it.

I hope I'm right!! :(

Is this for an FAA IR?

[Flying Clog]

Cheers for that! That clears it up I think. Not an FAA IR, those days are over! It's for a sim check on a large boeing for a UK airline.

(I know, I should know better!)

[Notso Fantastic]

KitKat- I agree, but don't forget to apply triple drift on the outbound leg (and headwind correction!). Just remember there are only 3 types of entry
Direct entry straight into the hold
Teardrop entry
Reverse teardrop entry

Delineated by the axis of the hold, and the line at 70 degrees to the holding axis inclined towards the body of the hold. If you sit down and draw it out for left and right holds it becomes a bit clearer (but only a bit). Remember to remind yourself of max speeds for altitude in holding patterns for UK, US and anywhere else that wants to be different!

Just to make you jealous, on the 747 you just program the FMS with the hold axis/direction, and sit there and watch it make a wonderful job of it........even in the simulator!

[fireflybob]

"280 inbound radial" is surely an oxymoron (a contradiction in terms).

By definition radials only come FROM the VOR.

If I was asked to take up a hold using this terminology I would be asking ATC for immediate clarification.

[expedite_climb]

fireflybob,

confusing yes, but there is a difference really.

Hold on 280 radial right turns would mean holding wsw of the VOR, with 280 as the i/b track. (i.e. hold to the north of the radial)

Hold on the 280 radial inbound right turns is the same radial, but 100 as the i/b track (i.e. hold south of the radial).

hmmmmm. Not the sort of thing you want to be working out while in the sim !!!

[fireflybob]

I recall that one of the factors in the DanAir 727 accident at Tenerife many years ago was the ambiguity in the way the aircraft was given a last minute (non charted) holding pattern instruction by ATC.

A recommendation was made that all holding pattern instructions should be given in a standard format and I was under the impression that that is what was adopted. Any ATCOs care to comment?

[Notso Fantastic]

Fireflybob- it's only written slightly incorrectly. It should be "280 degree radial, inbound, right turns" for perfect clarity!

[OzExpat]

fireflybob is right about the Dan Air prang at Tenerife, but there were other contributing causes. However, one of the major lessons from it was to clearly specify any ad-hoc holding. It is one thing to clarify it in writing, using commas, but one can't readily use commas in R/T.