View Full Version : airspace over the irish sea

2nd Dec 2002, 02:25
slight problem

in shifts since the 28th of nov

more than 30% of crews/fms's/company's

have no clue of the changes in airspace that occured over the irish sea on wed\thur

fair play to you all but the airlines that said they only update once a month (you can guess the names) are being less than on the ball

so heads up my friends if you intend to go that way from now check out

bagso , takid , ramox , sapox , babra, ,penil , malud etc etc etc

and if it's not in your database complain please (or we will to you and we know it's not your fault)

hope it helps the flow
rgrds mainecoon

3rd Dec 2002, 10:11
I wont sit on the fence but yesterday there were a considerable number of Ryanair bods (200 drivers) who did not even know there had been changes.That as far as we were concerned was pretty poor.They couldnt find any of the new points but did say they would look into it when they landed.

3rd Dec 2002, 10:25
Well, they're all there on the chart, effective 28 Nov 02, which I'm looking at.

3rd Dec 2002, 11:46
The changes are in the NOTAM's so everyone should be aware of them.

However only a few ATC units seem to be using them. London are still sending us to TNT when we are now routed via RODOL. Manchester seem the most clued up and hence the grilling they gave Ryanair yesterday.

It will take time for everyone to get use to the changes but hopefully not too long as these changes are causing even bigger slot delays than usual.

3rd Dec 2002, 18:30
jocko is correct

ryaniar were one but include air200 a320 various british 41's dh8's
get it sorted

Max Angle
4th Dec 2002, 11:21
Oh, god!. More meaningless reporting points, to add the thousands that exist all over the UK (especially bad) and over European airspace in general. 95% of airliners can fly direct from any point on the Earths surface to any other, how much longer must we suffer this antique systems of flying from point to point. Roll on free flight!.

4th Dec 2002, 11:46
The extra reporting points are a pain for us as well but some arse has to justify their existence.Remember us poor lower than a snakes belly ATCOs dont have much input in these decisions but if we did and had the muscle as well we would make it much simpler and more efficient for everyone.Just wait until you see the North Sea changes!

4th Dec 2002, 13:08
It seems that, despite being a provider of services to almost 2m movements a year, we are unable to dictate which reporting points we have to use, but have to comply with some beaurocrat's assesment of what is allowed. Therefore you will see lots of meaningless names in the new North Sea airspace with lots of Xs and Ys because that's where we've got to in the computer stock!

Say Goodbye to Beeno, Dandi, Komik, Mulit, Samon, Dogga etc.

4th Dec 2002, 13:35
I know I am being a little naive, but how does this fit in with the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' philosophy.

It is as Max Angle says, becoming increasingly difficult to keep up with all these meaningless 5 letter words, that can be thrown at you all over Europe, and often the 5 letters are not so obvious from the pronunciation.

It is easy on familiar routes which you fly day after day but when a strange one is thrown at you in the middle of Europe it is NOT easy. Just push waypoints on the panel to see just how many there are!!!

I know ATC are trying to be helpful in giving direct routes but it is not always that obvious, especially for our American and Far Eastern friends in unfamiliar territory!!

4th Dec 2002, 16:49
jocko is once again correct

its a pain in the arse for us also

but max and kris you seem to be taking this cockpit management a bit to far
you are still professional pilots
we all have too work under this antiquated system it isn't surely too much too ask that you self brief and if your systems (that you manage) are not up to date

more the fault of your companies alot of which are now responsable for the current state of our air traffic system as they partly own it

we didn't ask for or bring on this situation we just ask for a bit of helpfrom your side

and ps as jocko said wait until march next year over the north sea and lets hope this time there will be some more preplanning on behalf of some who either are not prepared or the few who are not prepared and feel the need to blame the system for their lack of professionalism:rolleyes:

4th Dec 2002, 18:37
I am sick of it. Why do we need thousands of crazy points, stupid bending airways, going east when we really want to fly west? our aircraft can go point to point from London to Sydney, Ubekermigrain to Kickatinalong. Why do we have this crazy system? In my experience of the USA, it does not happen there, so why in THE UNITED STATES OF EUROPE?

4th Dec 2002, 19:43
surely ecoon some one with the cop on would see the computer come up with a provocative name and say yoo....dump that, next please. Your right lets all call it penile......it's a mans world. I wonder if the computer came up with the way point Vagin what the feed back would be?


4th Dec 2002, 20:41
AFAIK, it's a "Flow Measure" WITHOUT Flow Control. Tfc into/outof Dublin/Irish Sea is not inconsiderable:rolleyes: , SO, to avoid any [potential] conlfiction, weird, [or even wierd] routings, an "Expeditious";) set of Airways/Routes has been intoduced.
IF your "Ops Section" know nowt about it, we [the Flight Planning ATSAs] have to put the correct input into the "Iron Brain".
Wrong filing...wrong input...You ain't going nowhere:p .
As has been said, next year, the North sea changes.
So check your NOTAMs
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

4th Dec 2002, 21:47

good point on breaks today we came up with at least thirty

chig i know that most of you do a good job but some of you have no clue as to what effect your plans have

today egnt*goles..bky.egss
one of your side you guess who

he is one of the very few so no slant at you or the majority

what an ignorant view
start with giving us a squared area for the united states

then give us the same measure for the united kingdom

then the same for the "united europe" you talk of

usa huge

uk very small

usa medium traffic in respect to size of airspace

uk constant overloads in the same respect to size of airspace

even somebody using simple logic should understand that in a huge airspace such as in the us free flight is a possibility

come and have a look at what you can't quite grasp
uk airspace is tiny in the scale of what works

you have the sad idea that you are the only aircraft in a small sky

a small look at an en-route radar at 0700-0900 local even now in the winter would show you how wrong you are

but if the load on sector frqs doesn't give you a hint then you are another lost cause

Prince Of Darkness
5th Dec 2002, 16:21
For the Irish Sea airspace changes, have a look at Yellow AIC 89/02 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4Y089.PDF) You'll have to register to the site first, though.

It's a pity that a lot of the Pilot self-briefing packages, as provided by airlines for their crews, do not provide links to information as important as this. Shouldn't be difficult, as most of the briefing packages are internet derived/driven. The only information that our briefing package provided was that the changes had come into effect, and a NOTAM reference number. :(

13th Dec 2002, 01:01
prince sorry on two counts

first that the reply is so long after the post
second that my company are prooving cr@p on yet another scale!
i'm victor sorry but assumed wrongly that it had been promulgated in the correct way seems to be 50\50 but just needed to give a heads up

as has been mentioned watch out in mid march for the very large (in comparison) changes to airspace in the north sea soth of egnt to around egsh nightmare i can assure you but anyway thanxs for all comments