Complex Conversion

[KCDW]

Hi,

Just come across PPRUNE. Good forum.

Quick question, I am a JAA PPL based in the US and will be converting from a PA28 Warrior to an Arrow III soon. The instructor has told me that a complex conversion will take 10 – 15 hours. Seems a lot to me. How long have people taken to convert in the UK?

Thanks

Richard

[Wheeler]

It probably will - to get proficient - but to be able to be solo safe, it is usually considerably less. Some insurance companies have minimum hours before they will allow you to take a constant speed retractable on your own and most don't like ab-initio training on those types at all.

[Tango Oscar]

My local club does a complex conversion for the Arrow (CS prop & retractable) which is 5 hours.

[englishal]

The FAA requirement is just a sign-off by an instructor, JAA rules are nearly the same so it COULD be as low as say an hour. However in reality, most clubs won't let you take their aircraft without at least 5 hrs dual in a complex. 10-15 hrs seem an awful lot to me, especially when you consider the JAA ME rating is only 6 hrs....I would anticipate 5 hrs dual, with no previous complex time.

An Arrow (PA28R) is basically an Archer with wobbly prop and retractable gear, so I can't really see why it should take 15 hrs if you're used to flying a PA28...or any other single come to think of it....

Rgds
EA:)

[FormationFlyer]

Um..let me see...think it was 1 hour from PA28 to Arrow IV....these days under JAR you are really only talking 5 hours conversion time max - so 10-15 is a little steep.

More than 5 hours? I dont think you need it - lets face it - gear and a new lever. Wow. Mind blowing. Not.

Provided you are already a competent PPL there is no reason why you wouldn't master it full within those 5 hours.

Personally my advice, as an instructor, is find another school.

[PhilD]

I was signed-off in a Turbo Arrow (Turbo, VP & Retract) by a reputable school after 2 hours differences training, when I had no previous experience with any of these. I don't know what I would have done in an extra 3 hours training as we seem to have covered all the relevant stuff in that time. Now all I need is another few hundred hours experience......

[KCDW]

Thanks all,

I think I am being ripped off here. Might as well do 3-5 hours back in Blighty.

Sorry about the multiple posts. I kept getting database failure messages, so kept hitting send :o

Have to say, that they all say that flying in the US is cheap. It is, but, gaining ratings and converting from FAA to JAA is not necessarily so. As I am finding with this and in my investigation of best means of getting an IR.

thanks again

Richard

Anyone over here and wanting a partner to fly out of KCDW - feel free to look me up.

[long final]

KCDW,

2-3 hours should be more than enough, but it obviously depends on the individual.

Regards,
LF

[Aussie Andy]

G'day KCDW, welcome to PPRUNE!

Some of the times quoted here seem ridiculous to me. I converted to the Dakota (like Arrow with CS prop, but lacks u/carriage) in 1 hour - so anything more than 2 hours seems steep to me.

Have just looked up KCDW and see you are in NJ somewhere... I am sometimes over there on business, so migth surprise you one of these days and take up the offer :)

Best,

[Ace Rimmer]

I wouldn't have thought it would take more than 5 hours absolute tops ( and by then you'd be pretty comfortable in the a/c) As others have said a lot of clubs/schools have a minimum conversion but I'd wager that most folks especially ones with lots of Warrior/Archer time would have it down in about 3 or so. Bottom line 10-15 sounds like a bit of a rip off to me

[dublinpilot]

Took me less than 1.5 hours for sign off on a new type and constant speed. No ret carrage. That was under JAR, and incl all the school check out stuff, not just constant speed prop. Even 5 hours seems a little long to me.

[18greens]

FAR AIM has some information on this recommending 10 hours for a complex conversion. The 10 hours is not mandatory but most clubs in the US are very anal about it. A twin rating in the states is 10 hours as well.

I did a couple of hours to convert to an arrow in the UK then did about 20 hours flying it around. When I wanted to get a conversion to a US complex rating I got a friendly FAA instructor in the UK to do a currnecy check and he then signed off my BFR and the complex rating. This signoff has held me in good stead for several years.

The arrow is not that big a deal. The floppy prop is more difficult to understand than the u/c lever but a couple-3 hours should do it.

Then all you have to look forward to is the inevitable wheels up landing we are all destined to make.

Good luck.

[Davidt]

I went PA 28 - TB10 - AC11, over the space of two years did about I hour each time to convert to each stage of complexity. 15 hours is a rip off.

But do read the manuals for the vp prop settings also recomend John Deakins articles on "www.avweb.com" to understand vp props manifold pressure etc.
Also understand the emergency gear down proceedures for your type. I played with mine whilst it was on jacks for star annual, and learnt a lot.

[sharpshot]

By 'eck :rolleyes:
Thank heavens I learned such a very long time ago.
Think it was about 45 minutes from C.172 to a 177RG and about same again from PA-28 to an Arrow.

18GREENS
Why are we all destined to land gear-up one day:confused: :confused:
If you're looking for 18 greens now, wait til you convert to an AN-124 - you might want more pretty lights:rolleyes:

P.S. How many do you see with the Nav lights on in good sunlight!

[Speedbird48]

As you state that you are US based I am guessing that you would want to rent the thing after your check-out?
If you ask your FBO/Instructor you will find that there is normally a 10hr insurance requirement. In which case how do you expect to get from the basic check-out ,to the point at which you can take the thing a way for a trip without more flying with an instructor?
We know you are all experts so why do the insurance companies make restrictions above the FAA/CAA rules?? Think about it?

[long final]

How can the FAA allow you to pass their IR with a UK IMC and 25hours instruction while to CAA insist on 55? How can US pilots fly over our heads every day with worse eyesight than our ATPL's are allowed and still be safe? How can we here in the UK fly IMC with our IMC Rating and yet not be deemed safe enough in Europe??

Everyone reads acceptable safety standards differently.

Insurance companies :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes: They just make up the numbers most of the time.

LF

[KCDW]

That's a very good point Speedbird48. I'll check with the FBO, but I seem to recall the 10 hour rule. Probably the reason why there was a 10 hour minimum checkout. Seems like I have a catch22 here.

It seems to me that between the CAA, FAA, JAA and Insurance companies, you're screwed... :)

[Cusco]

I took four hours to solo/buy a share in an Arrow 2.

However I was only 25 hours post PPL and pretty green.

However I trained on a PA38 and rented a PA28 Cherokee so it really was no big deal.

10-15 hours does sound a bit ripoffsville to me.

Safe flying.

[Sultan Ismail]

How long does it take, referred to logbook.

PA 28R - 200 Arrow 1.05 Cape Aero Club

C182RG 1.50 Skylane Pretoria Flying Club

PA32RT - 300T Turbo Lance 1.25 Avex Air, Grand Central Midrand

PA 24 - 250 Comanche 1.00 then 1.20 in the circuit Avex Air

C182TR Turbo Skylane 1.10 Avex Air, this was after I bought it, aaaaah


So, 10 to 15 hours is a definite rip off.

Immediately after the conversion at Pretoria Flying Club I was able to take the plane to Grand Central, about 15 minutes, and the next day flew to Beaufort West, about 4 hours, returning the same afternoon.

Similar trips following the other conversions.

I will add, the most challenging aspect of complex conversion is the use of turbocharging. No real requirement in the UK, but Grand Central stands at 5327' at the threshold, Pretoria 4000' and Beaufort West at 3000'.

For comfort most of the trips were done at FL105 to 125.

Certainly sharpens your flying skills, after all if there are 2 categories of pilots, those who have and those who will, who do you want to be?

[englishal]

I will add, the most challenging aspect of complex conversion is the use of turbocharging
Why? Just don't overboost it, easy. TC should make high altitude take off easier?

EA;)

[rustle]

EA,

"...Why? Just don't overboost it, easy. TC should make high altitude take off easier?..."

Just as big a problem, but greater understanding required, is shock-cooling TC engines - this is what the "difference training" should cover-off as well.

[Sultan Ismail]

Turbo Charging

In our basic trainer aircraft, at takeoff you have mixture rich and firewall the throttle, in a complex aircraft, its mixture rich prop fine and firewall the throttle.

Don't try that in a turbo charged aircraft, in my C182TR the throttle was approximately 50 per cent advanced (distance wise) at take off, that's 32" manifold pressure with a measure of turbo assistance on line. Airfield elevation 5000" plus.

In a non turbo aircraft at the same elevation you get about 25" boost.

The throttle had advanced to the firewall by 20,000'. The aircraft was factory fitted with a 4 place oxygen system, that's something else!

Turbo cooling was another issue, it rotates about 20,000rpm at a very high temperature, obviously as it is in the exhaust flow, and does need a few minutes to cool down. It is necessary to keep the engine running as the oil lubrication for the turbo unit is engine driven, and an oil flow has to be maintained through the turbo during the slowing down cycle. 5 minutes was usually allowed after touchdown.

As I said it is the most challenging part of the complex conversion and should not be underestimated. If you do not look after that turbo, things can and do go awfully quiet.

[Julian]

15 hours def sounds a rip off, the place I use in the US wants the following to hire.

Private Pilot Certificate
Third Class Medical
Complex Endorsement FAR 61.31 (e)
- 75 hours total time; 15 hours complex with 1 hour checkout
- or 75 hours total time with 5 hours dual in our Arrow

So the answer would be between 1-5 hours!
Sounds like the guy is after some hours to me.

Agree with you Rustle, had the point about shock cooling and power management beaten into me by my instructor when he took me out in the 200T. You have to think about your descent a lot further out than you would in a non-TC and start winding back the throttles. Like you say, certainly sharpedns you up and gets you thinking!

Julian.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

May I be so bold as to suggest that turbocharger operation such as take off, climb, power management and stage cooling as well as cool down after landing have no effect on flying time whatsoever.

The handling of engines is a ground school item and has no bearing on flight time.

Cat Driver:

[rustle]

Chuck,

You're absolutely right. My intent wasn't to justify lengthening the flight-time requirement (to 15 hours!!), merely to highlight that it isn't just overboosting that requires thought...

Cheers

[Flyboy-F33]

I think someone is pulling your p***er 10 - 15 hrs.....nonsense.


I would siggest no more than 2 hours with an instructor:eek:

[Mr. TCU]

The way that my instructor is transitioning me to a "complex" aircraft (C172 RG Cutlass) is with about an hour and a half of ground briefing, and two flights of about an hour each. In order to satisfy the insurance people though, I need just a bit more dual before I can take it out solo. So I'm going to do my mountain checkout in this plane. That way I can get to see some cool scenery while getting used to the new aircraft.

[MLS-12D]

Assumining average pilot proficiency, 10-15 hours is nonsense. :rolleyes:

The flying school and their insurer are free to set whatever minimum dual time they want before allowing you to rent it solo, but if that figure is 10-15 hours, my advice would be to shop around. You will almost certainly find a better deal elsewhere, as most insurers take a benign view of the trusty old Arrow.