Maintenance costs?

[undertheweather]

Am thinking of buying a single-engined non-complex plaything (fixed-pitch prop + fixed undercarriage). I have got a good idea of insurance and hangarage costs, but need some guidance on annual maintenance costs. The aircraft will be on a private C of A.

I know it needs a 6-month/50 hr check and an annual. I have been told that the 50 hr check should cost £350 and the annual around £2,500.

Are these numbers the right ballpark just to go through the checks, assuming the aircraft sails through (as it were!), and needs no remedial/extra work? Or are these numbers the basic fees, to which should be added labour charges? I should imagine the ubiquitous VAT will be added to everything!

Final question - what are labour charges for aircraft mechanics (on a £/hr basis)? The aircraft will be based in Southern England, but well away from London.

Hoping someone can help

[Flyin'Dutch']

UTW

As long as you appreciate that you are really asking how long a piece of string is, the answer is: yes.

As ball park figures they are not a million lightyears out.

However it very much depends on what remedial work needs doing.

If the mount is well maintained and of a type that has had all the AD work done in the past with no new ADs coming out every 2 seconds you could get some change out of the figures you mention.

Dont go spending it though. Something will go wrong and it will cost so keep it in your miscellaneous fund just in case. :eek:

For the engine allow cost of overhauled engine (depending on size and make) divided by the amount of hours at TBO. Put that aside for the overhaul and half of that again for a top end job at the midway point.

Expect to pay around the £30 per hour mark for a licensed engineer.

And always allow for the dreaded VAT.

FD

[QDMQDMQDM]

I know it needs a 6-month/50 hr check and an annual. I have been told that the 50 hr check should cost £350 and the annual around £2,500.

Maybe you're in the South-East, but that looks incredibly steep to me. Down here in the South-West a star annual (for CofA renewal every three years and a much bigger job than an annual) costs £12-1500, supposing nothing major is wrong. £350 looks outrageous for a 50-hour check, given the very little it involves. You can do it yourself anyway.

QDM

[Ludwig]

utwx, provided you don't get stuck with some con artist in my experience of using JAA145 types, the cost are much of a muchness, especially if you compare the hourly rate with say your local Ford dealer. The real pain in the arse is the stupid price of parts and even worse the lenght of time it takes to get even the simplest of bits. The general rule seems to be that apart from routine stuff which you should get a fixed quote for, is that everything takes twice as long and costs twice as much as expected.

Do not expect aircraft engineering outfits to operate to anything like the same servce standards as say your Ford garage. They are in the main under resourced, casual and prone to think the stuff they do is rocket science, and that you as a mere customer are an irritant. If you find someone who will go the extra mile to keep you in the air at that crucial moment when a widget breaks just before you are about to depart for a long planned trip, don't argue about costs, just pay it and keep him sweet. Service and availbility is far far far more important than saving a few quid.

[nonradio]

Don't ever forget that these quotes for hour and calendar based maintenance are only for INSPECTIONS - NOT rectification! As they say - If you have to ask how much, you probably can't afford it...(but that small consideration has never stopped very many people!)

If you are interested in a machine for pleasure and don't want to get involved in leasebacks or trying to make the thing earn its keep then I would encourage you to find out about permit to fly aircraft through the PFA (www.pfa.org.uk) or BMAA.
There are plenty of types to suit all tastes (and these days pockets, too) The permit enables you to do as much or as little of the maintenance as you want (or feel confident about), the permit renewal costs £145 a year and your friendly PFA inspector will charge about £100 at renewal time for inspecting the thing.
Hangarage and runway/airstrip costs are likely to be you biggest headache...

Good Luck! (and if you haven't decided by July2003 get yerself down to Kemble for the PFA Rally)

[Mr Wolfie]

UTW - Good question & one I too haven't really been able to find anyone who you can pin down to get an answer from. Post PPL I too would like to acquire a non-complex single for hour-building, but no-one even seems to be able to offer ball-park figures for likely inspection & maintainance costs.

Ludwig's comparison with Ford car dealers is interesting as pretty much all main dealers within the motor industry operate "menu pricing" for all routine servicing and replacement of common parts. Where this isn't the case there are published criteria for establishing the labour element of all repair work & the cost of spares is not a "trade-secret". There appears to be no similar transparancy of pricing in the aircraft engineering business. This would appear to give the punter every chance of being ripped off.

OK - so aircraft aren't cars, the industry is less competative and there is more regulation, but I cannot see why a transparent pricing structure is too much to ask for. Why not have "menu-pricing" or some other form of "indicative" pricing at least for your plain old c152's and pa28's etc.

OK. Rant over,
Mr. Wolfie:)

[nonradio]

Wolfie - why rant when you could by a whole flyable single seat aeroplane for less than £3000 and fly for less than £10 an hour with Permit to Fly administered through the PFA? I assume the hours in your logbook are what you are interested in and not what you're flying?
A great many engineering outfits do give a 'menu' price for inspections but that involves only that - having a look (and maybe an oil change and lube)! Rectification comes at the shop hourly rate depending on what's buggared. The problem is that sometimes different folk have different standards about when something needs fixin'.

Clearly the best guide to costs for a particular type is an owner - so ask around...

I am sure if cost per hour is your only criteria then Permit to Fly wins hands down.

Good Luck to you , too:D

[Keef]

Those prices don't look far wrong. We pay anything from £200 to £750 for a 50-hour, depending on what the engineer finds. 150-hour is a bit more (£500 to £1,000).

Annuals anything from £1,000 to £5,000. (The FM immunity year).

The last C of A ("Star annual") was about £1,500. The one before that was £14,500. You can guess what happened that time!

It really does all depend on what's broken. And remember most of the aircraft we fly are many times older than our cars. Sometimes the aircraft are older than WE are.

The most important advice I was ever given was on choice of maintenance outfit:

- It has to be on your home field (because that's where most things will go wrong);

- Stick with the same outfit - because every time you change, the new one has the opportunity to find all the things the previous one did wrong (cynical, but not untrue);

- Build up a good relationship with the maintenance outfit, so they know you and look after you.

- If you have the right people in the group to do it, have a "nice guy" who knows a bit to do the normal contact with maintenance, and a "nasty guy" who can be set onto them if they mess you about. It's amazing how quickly they catch on...

You can do your own 50-hour checks on a Private Cat or PFA type (as long as there are no ADs to comply with). You do need to know what you're doing, so if in doubt, spend the £250 and get it done right.

The more bells and whistles, and the more years on the airframe, the more it costs.

[FlyingForFun]

And remember most of the aircraft we fly are many times older than our carsHmm, let's see. Me, 1975 vintage. My car, 1977 vintage. My 'plane, 2001... I hesitate to use the word "vintage" for something that's barely out of nappies! :D

Seriously, though, any figures will be very much ballpark figures. You can definitely save costs by buying a PFA aircraft, as long as you've got the time, skills and confidence to do the work yourself, but there are restrictions (e.g. day-VFR only). If all you're looking for is cheap, fun hours, it's definitely the way to go.

FFF
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[CessnaEng]

You can check the (US) price of cessna parts here

http://www.cessnaparts.com/

I believe there are similar sites for Pipers.