Ownership/Shares

[Kefuddle_UK]

Guys,

Once my PPL is done and dusted (end of winter(ish)) I want to own or part own plane as soon as possible, no less than 1/4 share though. If I may I would like just just list some questions and get some feedback from those in the know:

1) Shrares:
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1.1) What is likelyhood (generally speaking) of being accepted into a group with just PPL time?

1.2) With groups, how are the rosters sorted out. Does each member have a total number of hours they are allowed to fly according to their share of ownership?

1.3) Are there any legal costs regarding contracts etc?

2) Owning:
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2.1) How practical is it to just buy a plane outright and mitigate the cost of ownership by renting it out.

2.2) Would a flying club be happy to handle the admin of an aircraft for a cut in the rental price?

2.3) Just how much more in % terms would the running of an aircraft to CofA standards for hire and reward?

2.4) Again, any info on legal costs?

Horrible length of string questions I know. But a guesstimation or mean view would be much appreciated. Just incase this is relevant in any way, Blackbushe is my home-drome.

Once again, many thanks in advance,
Kef.

[FlyingForFun]

Kefuddle,

1.1 - Depends on the aircraft. It it's a PA28, C172 or similar, probably very high. If it's a single-seat tail-dragger you might need 100 hours of tail-dragger time. Generally, anything that's got more than one seat won't be a problem - you'll just need to get checked out by an instructor, and if it's a more complex aircraft than you're used to, that may take time. Also depends on the group to a small extent, too.

1.2 - Varies from group to group. The group I'm in uses an Internet booking system, first-come first-served. The rules are that you can't book more than a month in advance, and you can't book more than 3 days in a row. Seems to work very well - we have a mix of weekend fliers and weekday fliers which avoids too many conflicts. Other groups may have similar or completely different rules. This would be on thing you'd want to check before buying into a group

1.3 - Not generally, although if you're paranoid about it I'm sure you could set something up..... Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a group if I didn't trust the other members.

Can't help with the questions on ownership, though.

FFF
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[Kefuddle_UK]

Thanks Fun.

Good news as I somehow started to worry that I would be destined to do my next 55 hours in an expensive renter...phew! One question I forgot was : where is the best place to find groups offering shares? The mags or is there an internet company agency doing this sort of thing?

Cheers,
Kef.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Kef

I think that FFF already answered most of your first question.

There are as many ways of sorting out booking systems and rules as there are groups. Make sure that the group you join has rules/booking system that cater for your kind of flying/ideas.

As FFF stated the ability to join a group depends very much on the type and the groups attitude. There may be insurance requirements too but they can usually be sorted out without too much heartache.

Most groups are formated around equal shares so that all members have equal rights to the machine. Some have rosters and some operate on a first come basis.

The PFA website has a standard contract which is a good starting point. Appreciate what FFF says but even when we can trust each other it is worthwhile to ensure you have a contract and some house rules. Things that can get sticky are best sorted and agreed when everyone is still very much in luv.

It is said that most well run groups never have to advertise and some even have 'waiting' lists for prospective members.

Best thing (IMHO) is to go and have a look around at the airfield(s) that are the ones you want to fly from, and have a chat with the refueller, guy/gal in the tower, airfield manager, maintenance people. They are usually in the know about what is happening and where the vacancies are or may be.

It is certainly the way we got further group members.

There are plenty of flying schools and clubs that manage private aircraft with a PT C of A for owners. It saves them the capital outlay and usually provides them with something a bit more exciting than the bog standard flying school material so that they can cater for a wider public.

Again I think it pays to do some investigations beforehand and ensure that all is crystal clear and well formulated in a good contract. Have no idea but would have thought that AOPA may be helpful if you need further legal advice re this option.

Have fun looking around and when you are serious have a hop in your prospective mount. Ensure to offer appropriate compensation for the pleasure, many a time it will be waived, but it enables the owner/syndicate to see that you are serious and not a tyre-kicker

FD

[Kefuddle_UK]

Thanks Dutch,

I will have a nose around some clubs and see what the possibilities are for them to 'run' my plane. I haven't passed my PPL yet but it pays to be ahead of the game and I really would like to get something decent sorted as soon as my PPL gets sorted.

I popped over to the PFA site but you have to join to be able to download their group contract/rules template :(

However, the other thread on costs is providing some good info to :)

Thanks for your time :D
Kef.

[Lowtimer]

Kefuddle,

Others have answered your points better than I could but may I make a suggestion? It all depends on what kind of flying you really want to do: you may or may not have strong views. But before you buy into a syndicate I'd suggest you go out and fly as many different types of aeroplane as possible. If you can do this on the basis of rides with other PPLs that's great, but also think about going to a school with a good and varied fleet and getting checked out in a variety of types, e.g. if you trained on a PA-28, get checked out on a Cessna and vice versa. If you're into serious touring, try and get hold of a Grumman AA-5, and a Robin. If you are more into local flying and pure enjoyment of flying for its own sake try a Cub, a Stearman or Moth, etc. There are several places where you can get experience in lots of different types, at least enough to get a taste for what makes you happiest. You might be surprised at what you find most enjoyable, and then when you do make a hefty financial commitment, you won't get trapped in something which leaves you feeling a little flat six or twelve months down the line.

Also, the experience will be very good for you post-PPL, and having a few more hours, and being signed off in more types, may help to open doors in terms of the way that members of other syndicates, and their insurers, look at you.

Actually, joining the PFA might be a very good idea as some of the best-value flying around is in syndicates formed around PFA types.