Expedite through ALT/FL

[Smurfjet]

Greetings,

How is the expedite through ALT/FL instruction used?

Scenario :

2 a/c flying same direction, #2 is faster, 25 miles and decreasing, 50 kts speed differential.
#2 wants to climb through #1 (level). Would you tell him to expedite through #1's altitude, or through #1's altitude+1000'.

What is the pilot expected to do then?

I understand that this form of 'control' is not recommended.

Thanks in advance
SJ

[roger]

Generally when expediting through another level(recommended or not) it would be other ac's level +/- 1000 feet.
I try not to use expedite too much, prefering to set a climb or descent rate but when I do, I hope the pilot will go balls out.

Climb like your life depends on it., because ............

roger

[FWA NATCA]

Like Roger said +/- 1000 and using the phrase expedite your climb / descent does not ensure seperation, and I know of several controllers who have been burned when a pilot didn't climb or descend as quickly as the controller had planned on.

When I do use expedite I add traffic is and I keep an eye on the situation and have a plan B ready just in case.

Mike

[Scott Voigt]

Most controllers probably don't use the term expedite to separate traffic. However, we do use it to get pilots to give us thier best either up or down so that we can keep aircraft moving and get most out of the airspace for all of the aircraft. If you need the pilot to hussle you ask them too so that everyone can get what they want. You monitor it and if it appears that they aren't doing it, you can go back and then saw them off or issue a restriction if required...

regards

[Smurfjet]

Thanks for your replies.

In the simulator we always get faster departures behind other slower departing or en-route traffic. Usually we have to vector them for the climb, which is sometimes a lot of work (4-5 departures in a row, coordination required sometimes).
Now if the expedite climb is used, the escape route will be a vector left or right off course before running out of lateral separation.

SJ

[MacDoris]

Expedite is not a form of seperation in itself hence why you should use vectors to ensure min seperation then if you wish Exp the climb or descent to resolve the problem faster then back on own nav or whatever. Not climb up the chuff hoping you get above and if its getting close i'll give it a sharp turn, sometimes the aircraft in question does not reply, then oops pass the forms. Seen it happen.

[Ahh-40612]

At the risk of being accused of being a boring old f@*t , the magic word expedite appears to be the cure-all for all tricky problems to be resolved easily at the Nats college of knowledge - or that's how it seems to me with new recruits using " expedite " as often as possible to solve everything ! There are no guarantees that it will work.

Only probably said the word about 6 times in 20 years and then only works with specific types - Lears etc.

Try it with an Airbus 340 and you might get 1500fpm briefly.

Ps - don't know if the A340-600 is better with REAL engines rather than the economic hairdryers on the 342/343!!

[Richard Everest]

... and if you do request "expedite" then only plan for an a/c to do this for approx 1 min- i.e. if expedited rate is 3,000fpm expect them to go up 3,000'. You really need to know your a/c types to use it effectively and be aware of any and all extraneous factors too, like stage of flight, prevailing winds (tailwinds do not help here), current rate of climb/ descent and a million and one other things. Yep, better stick to good vectoring!

[5milesbaby]

In the phraseology section of the Air Traffic bible Part 1, the term 'expedite climb/descent' is to be used to quote:to require a pilot to climb/descend at best rate .
I only use it when I think really necessary, but think its effective in solving certain conflicts/problems. In standard terms too for a student controller when an a/c reports struggling to make a level restriction, expedite is the only recognised term to reply with, and not the usual 'roger, do your best please'.
And when I was at the college, expedite wasn't permitted, they'd much prefer to screw you up by getting that left hand orbit in :( :( :(