Budget carrier having a laugh

[RobinHood]

The easyjet type-rating sponsorship scheme is IMHO only a punchline short of being a joke. For a bargain 23k you can put yourself through the hell and high water we call the airline industry to end up paying an over-inflated price for a type-rating only to end up being bonded to easyjet for 5 years with your own money!

One again another classic example of airlines taking the mickey out of prospective employees. After all the training and hard work invested in your licence you now (apparently) have to pay for the job as well.

Easy claim its people are its number one asset. I bet they are the pounds their chucking in for their training. No wonder they can afford to fly people around the continent for 20 quid. Who needs training expenses when you've got such generous staff.

I suggest to all those even thinking about easy to hold fire and let them run short of crew. Only then will they invest in their people and pass the training costs on to Joe Bloggs. When people sign up to these schemes we all suffer because its another nail in our livelihoods.

Its enough to put you off oranges forever.

[Count von Altibar]

The more I see and hear about this company the more I dislike them. Hope I never have to work there.

[cedmondson]

Forgive me, I am very new to the industry (Modular Training). Can you explain what Easy are asking? and what they offer in the way of wages, length of employment and type ratings, for us to cough up 23K? What is a Bond?

A barrage of questions that will hopefully stem my ignorance! :)

Regards Chris

[Grivation]

Well we've been having a great little debate about this in the Wannabe's forum. It would seem from the reaction that a lot of newbies (and some that aren't so new) think it's a fantastic setup. :(

It would appear that both Easy and 'The Ryans' have reduced their minimum requirements over the last week. Perhaps the supply of rated drivers is coming to an end.

[cedmondson]

If I had 23K spare, after all the costs for the previous training, I would apply, if a job was guaranteed and secure !

[Grivation]

See what I mean - :rolleyes:

[scroggs]

I take it you guys won't be applying then!;)

[Splat]

I have 23K and have applied ages ago, but it's got me no where! From what I've seen, being prepared to stump up the cash does not put you any nearer to an interview, but then maybe things are changing...

S

[worriedwife]

My hubby is an army heli pilot leaving in 2 years and about to start his distance learning ATPL I'm just doing a bit of research into this myself since I will have to make big sacrifices of time together and money (nothing different to the army then!) if he's going to go for it.

We are unsure if it's a good idea given the cost and the current market for jobs. He and his mates seem to be budgeting about £22k for the ATPL & MCC etc (some exemptions) but no one seems to have realised (or have I misunderstood?) that a) hardly anyone is recruiting, b) there are loads of already type rated experienced 737 pilots ready to fill jobs when they do recruit and c) no one pays to train you for type so you have to pay yourself another approx £15k?? d) unless you go to EZY and get locked into working for a horrible company for 5 years.

I had doubts before but having trailed around many websites and the forums here, I wonder whether he would be better getting a civvy job, doing distance learning and applying when the market improves. Also, if you do your ATPL and then are unemployed, do you become uncurrent and have to take some exams again at further cost to yourself?

All advice gratefully received, sorry to barge in on your website boys!

[Maximum]

Speaking generally, if he's leaving in two years, then it's hard to predict what the job market will be like. However, I'll chance my arm and say (WorldWar III/Gulf War II apart) that things will probably be looking better.

The bottom line is, if he wants an airline job (and the merits of that could fill a whole different thread) then better to be ready to apply for the jobs when the next upturn comes.

Also, if and when next upturn comes, not all airlines will be asking people to pay for their own type rating.

So the bottom line is, if you can afford it and he want's to go fixed wing, get the ATPL and if you're lucky, he'll be in a good position to apply for jobs when he comes out.

Of course, he could always stay rotary, earn less money and enjoy his flying.;)

Hope that's of some help. Others may have different views - obviously all above simply my own opinion.:)

[Kefuddle_UK]

I have to say, that although I am not against wannabes opting to buy their own type ratings (a position I predict I will be in) the EasyJet scheme looks very dodgy indeed. However, I don't think one would be bonded as you would simply owe the money back if you choose to leave. What concerns me is why one would owe back so much (est £25k inc interest?) and what happens if they decide to get rid of you?

If you are sacked or made redundant and they stand the cost in such circumstances then maybe, just maybe the extra expense is worthwhile for some. If you still owe them the remainder then this is simply a financing scheme.

[Alloy]

If you have paid £23K for your 73 type rating (and presumebly line training) then surely you can not be bonded for any length of time?

You would be mad to pay a bond for a type rating you have already paid for.

Regardless of it being moral, surely £23K for a 73 type rating and line training is somewhat excessive.:eek:

[worriedwife]

Thanks maximum,

I feel slightly less bleak about the whole thing. I guess it is a gamble which will hopefully pay off, and if it doesn't 22k on a mortgage over a lifetime isn't so bad... Still interested in hearing anyone's views.

[Maximum]

worriedwife, you're very welcome, glad to be of help.

A couple more thoughts - if money is a worry (when is it not?) has he looked into getting his civvy helicopter licences? I know it can be a can of worms with instrument ratings etc., but obviously worth considering if at all cheaper. Employment still hard to find and less secure in the rotary world I know, but hopefully with his experience worth considering even if just to discount it out of hand.

I would be very wary about paying for a type rating - again simply because he's already an experienced aviator and a company should be glad to get his skills. With any upturn, airlines will be hiring who will pay for his type rating. I know of at least one major UK independent which has hired a number of ex-army chopper pilots, and hold them in high regard. (Not hiring at the moment I'm afraid.)

In my opinion the bottom line would be that he takes the route into civvy flying that costs the least money - if that's rotary then he should stay with that. He could then gradually do the fixed wing bit while still being employed as a pilot and getting used to the civvy world. Believe me, the airlines aren't all they're cracked up to be. Again, I know a few ex army and navy chopper pilots who were quite shocked at the amount of time they have to spend at work - even compared to the military. (Obviously doesn't compare to tours in Bosnia and the like, but certainly much less enjoyable and much harder work than they imagined!)

Anyway, good luck to you both.



:)

[Alberts Growbag]

Worriedwife,

Ignore SleazyJet and it's methods. It is an airline that has long dissapeared up its own posterior and is not going to really represent the market in general.

If your hubby has experience, whether it be rotary or fixed wing then he will get a job if he tries hard enough. It will depend on his attitude. If he 'expects' a job then you are in for a long haul. If he is ready to take what's on offer and work his way up the civil ladder then he'll get a command with a civil airline before too long depending on the market. Just remember that the civil world owes the military pilot nothing. He chose to play big boy games for eight/sixteen years and that's been his pleasure, now it's time to join the real world.

I'd go for it, but as yet avoid paying for a type rating.

[worriedwife]

Thank you
I think what he'd like most is to do is police or air ambulance for job satisfaction. I've looked into this and he is going to be 500 hours short which would mean going to oil rigs first to get hours up then applying (neither of us like this option re: danger etc). Also, they prefer pilots with mainly mil. hours + there will be many with a lot more hours than him.

He is not too bothered about money if he enjoys his job, but the idea is if you can't do your ideal flying then you say 'show me the money' and go to airlines and be able to afford nice holidays instead. He'd be happy to stay rotary - I think he will just go for the one where he is most likely to get a job. Also you have to bear in mind even if you are unemployed for a year or so when you finally get an airline job you will easily be able to 'pay yourself back' the money you spent on training and being unemployed whereas in rotary the wages are lower so it's more of a financial gamble, ie. you get less return for your investment. Anyone know which companies other than BASL, McAlpines & Police/Medical Aviation Services recruit heli pilots?

I'll get him to read all your advice when he gets back. We have til xmas to make a final decision and stick to it so I or he may be back for more advice later. Better go, this is quite addictive - and I'm not even a pilot!

[scroggs]

WorriedWife

The easyJet type-rating scheme only applies to pilots with between 500 and 1500 hours. I assume your hubby has more than that? If not, this is easyJet's own explanation of their scheme: click here (http://www.easyjet.com/en/jobs/pilotrecruitment_typeratingsponsorshipscheme.html) . Far better to read it yourself than rely on secondhand information from those of us here who might have another agenda!;)

However, there are more jobs out there than some would have you believe, and most reputable airlines would be prepared to take the risk of training an ex-military pilot at their own expense - and that may well include easyJet. Their direct entry pilot scheme is still open, as far as I know.

The best way to find out what's out there is direct contact with all the potential employers you can find. Get your hubby to join BALPA and the IPA; both offer employment assistance services with comprehensive databases of UK-based airlines - and they are cheap to join for unemployed or trainee pilots. Another helpful resource is CoPilot Publications. I don't have an address for them, but they have been mentioned in the Wannabes forum a few times recently - try a search there.

There are many, many ex-military pilots here who are now well ensconced in the airlines. I'm sure we are all delighted to help out with further advice if you need it.

Good Luck!:)

PS Try a fish for info on rotary opportunities in the Rotorheads forum.

[worriedwife]

Scroggs,

Thank you, will do all those things, and I had already looked at the EasyJet website. I think that scheme may well be finished by the time he is looking for jobs anyway; I really just wanted to understand the situation with type ratings, which I now do.
By the way he did other army stuff before becoming a pilot and is an offr so he has less hours than you would think (the army like to throw their money away training people and then sending them to fly a desk). Will finish with an absolute max of 1400 hours unless very lucky (or unlucky if you consider current political situation in Gulf), 'tho I suppose there will be some extra hours from the ATPL etc and we might consider taking a working holiday to America to get some cheaper flying hours in. How do you think that would affect his chances?

[Agaricus bisporus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. No one but an irresponsible fool pays for their own type rating.
Fool, because you can't have any idea who will offer you a job, and the likelihood of it being on the type you bought is small. What a **** you'll look with a £15K 737 rating (thats about the going rate) and bet offered a job on an Airbus...
Irresponsible because you are screwing up the market for the rest of the jobseekers out there who aren't rich/daft/selfish enough to bribe an employer to take them.

Type ratings are one of an airline's natural business expenses and by paying this yourself you merely open yet another crack in our shaky foundations that the airlines are consistently chipping away at. Next we'll be PAYING THEM for the priviledge of flying their damn aeroplanes, just because of the selfishness of a few who started the rot. Don't do it!!!

I have seen people with bought type ratings put thru full courses anyway, and then bonded on a type they already had. Bwa ha ha ha!!! Serve them right.

As for a £23K type rating and a bond afterwards, firstly I doubt its true. Even EJ know you can't bond for more than the value of the training, and £15K is accepted as about the norm for a 737. Secondly, no fool takes a 5 yr bond on anything, no such period has ever existed before as far as I know, this is a pisstake. 2 Yrs is the max anyone is ever bonded for.

If you've paid yourself you CANNOT be bonded. That's pretty clear from a legal point of view. In any case it is doubtful if bonds are legal in the UK anyway.

Leave this scam well alone, for God's sake, as welll as for the sake of your fellow pilots.

[Alloy]

Agaricus bisporus has it about right.

[Capt.Paul Skinback]

Dear worriedwifey,

On what basis do you think easyJet is a 'horrid' airline?Sure the airline has had a few problems this summer,but as a flying job,which is quite important, its great.There are long days,but we are well paid,the training is excellent and the guys are great to fly with.
It is also one of the most secure,which if you are worried about the pennies is quite a factor.
So please don't belittle an airline from the cosy confines of your current comfort zone unless you really know what you are talking about.It is very hard out there,and you might one day find yourselves in the position where you would be very grateful for a job with 'horrid' easyJet.

[scroggs]

Agaricus

I think you need to study the easyJet scheme a little closer before you rubbish it so comprehensively. To my knowlege, the only 737 ratings you will get for £15K are simulator time only, with possibly a base training sortie. The easyJet scheme is to the end of line training, which I would imagine is a minimum of 20 sectors. Not only that, but the airline repays the £23k to you at £1000 a month (and that includes about £2k in bank interest) once you have successfully completed the course. As for bonds, I was under a bond for 3 years at Virgin - as are all new hires here. You may feel they are not legal, but I believe that the principle has been tested in court already.

You can study the details of the scheme here: easyJet Type Rating Sponsorship Scheme (http://www.easyjet.com/en/jobs/pilotrecruitment_typeratingsponsorshipscheme.html)

[Smokie]

I was bonded for a year on a turbo prop that I already had on my license, however I was never bonded on to our jet fleet .
It is now a 3 year bond for a jet in our company, swings and roundabouts really.

I do believe that it is illegal to be bonded a second time in the same company though.

[Engee73]

The other point to consider is that this apllies to low hours pilots. It is likely you will need to stay for sometime anyway in order togain enough experience to move on. The other option is for easyjet to recruit only high time pilots.

Its not great but given what many other airlines in the world do (including Ryanair their competitors) it isn't really that bad is it?

Of course you can keep pushing around in your shorts for a couple more years and then apply directly. Which leaves you better off?

Worriedwife: Just so you know the money is not that great! ;)

Good luck to all.

[worriedwife]

Capt. Paul,

I am slating easyjet based on what I have read in other threads written by people who sound like easyjet pilots. I would be glad if my husband got a civilian flying job, ANY job, I'm not picky. But, I don't think that is likely to happen without a lengthy period of unemployment first. After investing the best part of £30k, spending many hours worrying about how we are going to pay the mortgage etc. all to get this dream job I just don't like the idea of him working really long days and being paid less for the priviledge of working for a company who apparently change people's shifts all the time at the last minute. Long hours + decent pay=better than current situation, low pay + acceptable hours = better than current situation, but bad hours and low pay - he may as well stay where he is or get some civvy job with a title that doesn't really mean anything, be bored, but come home at night and fly for fun at weekends. Sorry if have offended there are plenty of people saying worse things about easy.

[Smokie]

Welcome to the real world, its dog eat dog these days I'm afraid.
Can I suggest that any commercial job is better than none at all.
If he gets "left behind" then all his current experience won't really count for much. The watch word here being "current", otherwise he will virtually have to start building up experience again.

The last major recession this country had, back in the late 80s and early 90s, had Air Europe and Dan Air go down the swanny.
The jobs available to me at the time were all swallowed up by these redundant guys who had a string of type ratings between them, Shorts 360/330, HS748, Heralds, F27s, G1s, Bandits, not to mention all the jet ratings they had as well , 737, 727, 757, BAC111, BAe146s.

Not even having a turbo prop on my license, I had no chance and had to wait 4.5 years before an opportunity came on the Bandit. This was the worst job in the world, with very, very, poor pay; with management continually flaunting the FTL with their" creative accounting" but 600hrs in 6 months got me out of there and a rung further up the ladder.

The trick is to get on the ladder, stay there and don't fall off !
Otherwise 4.5 years is a long time to try and stay current at your own expense.
You get rusty very,very quickly.

[Capt.Paul Skinback]

Dear Worriedwife,

Appreciate your sentiments and honesty but please don't believe everything that is written here!!!

My wife and I were in a similar position a few years ago.The only advice I would like to give is that sometimes dream fulfillment and true job satisfaction are more important than the££££££££££££££££'s.If he's happy,then you will be.And yes I know that doesn't pay the bills.

All the best from a happy and grateful eJ pilot.

[Anthony Carn]

Count von Altibar
The more I see and hear about this company the more I dislike them. Hope I never have to work there.
The more I see of the way YOUR company is going, CvA, the more they remind me of Easyjet ! You won't have to work "there" in order to have regrets ! It's coming to you ! AFS re-vamp soon ! Get ready to be angry, unless, of course, you're management ! :rolleyes:

As regards this bonding epidemic, (of which the Easyjet scheme IS a version) the only organisation which can realistically reinstate fairness throughout the entire UK industry is BALPA.

That'll be a bonding epidemic, then. :(

[Dan Winterland]

Worriedwife,

This industry is fickle and one thing that is safe to say is that it won't be the same in two years time when your hubby is looking for a job. I left the military about 15 months ago to join an expanding company when things were looking bright. Four weeks later (Sept 12th, 2001!) things were looking a bit different. In fact, I had achieved being made redundant from my first company without actually having left the RAF at that point! The upshot - the company wanted me back, but I left anyway having found a better job. You never can tell in this industry, but it's not a secure as the forces. But then again, no one shoots at you.

Reading behind the lines behind the eJ scheme (pay for your type rating and line training and they will refund you gradually when they know you can cut the mustard) it shows that there is a reduction in the supply of lean hungry pilots with hours. OK, the company is takingthepiss a bit with this deal by not wanting to take the training risk themselves, but it's a good opportunity for low timers (and 500 hrs is low time) to get a jet job, albeit having to put their money where their mouth takes them.

Mates in eJ reckon it's still a good company to work for

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

For a long time now people (Wannabes) have complained that to get an airline job you had to:

a) Have no experience whatsoever and get lucky with a sponsorship/cadet deal,

OR

b) Have loads of experience in the form of an unfrozen ATPL and probably a commercial type rating.

Now easyJet have come up with a) a full cadet sponsorship scheme which also b) taking experienced airline pilots with a 737 ticket.

BUT, also they come up with a scheme for people with 500 - 1500hrs and no type rating. Hurrah! Every man jack instructor, hours builder or other Wannabe have a shot at taking a short cut to the RHS of the countries second biggest airline.

Do you need any cash to apply? - NO.

You sign some papers and a bank shuffle £23,000 into easyJets account, which they then spend on your type rating. You start flying with easyJet and the bank calls asking for £1,000 a month please. Which is a bit of a bummer.

Oooh, hang on!

easyJet are slipping a grand a month (tax free) into the old salary slip. And will continue to do so until the bank goes away and leaves me alone.

So thats quite nice then.

Much better than say getting a turboprop job for 3 years on £20k - £25k and *then* moving on to a jet job.

Addressing the thread topic directly - I would suggest your husband should apply to Ryanair and easyJet as these are the only two airlines in the UK who have a significant recruitment need in the near future. Once employed with either it will be far easier to move to another airline of choice.

Cheers,

WWW

[BronzeAge]

So you think that we should all pay for our rating then?

Ok ......LPC......OPC........medical.........

Bring em on!

[AMEX]

Sorry WWW but when you joined go, did you have to pay for your rating ? If not, why should we ?
Wait.... I know the answer to that one.
Because it is life and it is a tough one so we have no choice but to get on with it. Right ?!? Well not quite, life is what WE make of it.

As for .....Much better than say getting a turboprop job for 3 years on £20k - £25k and *then* moving on to a jet job....

May I ask you what is wrong with flying turbo-props ? If really you mean the money isn't worth the effort then why did you instruct ? Surely you would have been better of waiting for a deal like EZ is offering and jumped straight into a jet.

I am very annoyed with the fact that there is only one way to be considered as a pilot these days and it is if you fly a Boeing/Airbus with less than a 1000 hours.

How about this guy I met last week ? He ferries aeroplanes around the world (Single Turbo prop mini as he isn't totally mad;).
I met him the day before his Atlantic crossing so we got time to make the most of NCL and listen to each others stories.
Young guy and fantastic exeprience he has and Oh.... actually I forgot to tell that in real life he flies Dash 8s in N. America for an airline but I guess these days he doesn't stand a chance to be considered to be "one of us" (Mind you I use the expression loosely as I am not a Boeing/Bus driver).

(A very annoyed Amex who has enough of reading about £5000 deals for Caravan rating (when there is not even a single potential job in the UK), Airlines asking you to finance your rating with active pilots telling you what a great opportunity it is and how lucky you are, etc....:mad: :mad: :mad:)

As BronzeAge said

So you think that we should all pay for our rating then?

Ok ......LPC......OPC........medical.........

Can't wait for it to happen.

[redadair]

Got to agree with the general opinion running here.
Easyjet have most definately lost their shine. They treat their applicants with disregard and according to easy people, similar feelings exist internally.

I hope to see easy pay for its new terrible attitude, however i fear the wanabees will ensure easy wont go short of people.

All we can ask is for the wanabees to think twice.

[Engee73]

I have a few critisims of easy myself, but as far as this scheme goes I do not. By recruiting low time pilots easy takes a significant risk and I (as a shareholder and emploee) consider that it is not unreasonalble to share this risk, especially when the airline is considered as a stepping stone to other things. You do not have to take this route. Feel free to fly the turboprops for a few extra years, I think it will be beneficial in the future. If you want to jump straight into a jet though this is the way it is going. It is difficult not to when the competition (ryanair) is demanding a type rating.

In my mind where easy is going wrong is they have not (yet) set a standard of terms and conditions that make it a career airline. It is this reason alone that bonds are required.

You are not paying for an empty type rating, you are paying for a guarenteed kick start to you career that is more than likely going to put you in a better position in the long term. Exercise your discretion if you wish.

Once again good luck to those who do chose to apply.

NG

[Maximum]

Amex, I must admit I have to agree with you in general terms.

One of the trends I have noticed over the course of my time in flying is that very human trait of "pulling the ladder up behind you." I can't help feeling that this paying for your type rating nonsense is just another example of same.

Example: I've seen people join a very small outfit, become trainers 'cos they'd simply been there six months longer than others, then find themselves in what, through rapid growth, is now a big outfit. These same people, who have now by default become pilot managers, decide to completely change the criteria needed to become a training Captain - criteria they would never themselves have fulfilled!! "Pulling the ladder up behind you."

I could give many more examples. The bottom line is, this scheme locks you in financially to the airline. You are beholden to them until the money is paid off. If you think that's fine, then there you go. But just because it gives you a way in, doesn't make it right.

Seriously, where does it stop? How about you take out a loan covering your salary for the next ten years, but don't worry, it's not actually costing you anything, 'cos we'll pay it back to you as your salary per month over ten years. Of course, if you leave within that period, then we'll want the remainder of the loan paid back immediately........but it helps us with our cashflow old boy, and why on earth would you want to leave us within the next ten years anyway? After all, you do want to be an airline pilot don't you?



:rolleyes:

ps: I have no problems with ab-initio sponsorship schemes, as they can give opportunities to people who could never have become pilots otherwise. But not paying for your own type rating. No sir.

[Scottie]

Well said engee73!

As an employee (and a relatively happy one) I get fed up with people using easyJet as an insurance policy. A lot of Captains in my old company used to think of eJ in those terms, alas no more as we are taking no more direct entry Captains :)

For those with 500hrs to 1500hrs in todays employment climate this is a good way to go from zero commercial experience to glass cockpit, medium jet and eventual command experience.

You've got two options;

1/ Don't apply and hope to get in with some other airline or come back to easyJet when you've got some commerical experience.

2/ Apply, yep be bonded for 5 years but within those 5 years you could achieve command on a brand new 737 or A319.

We have plenty of applications from pilots who are already employed or unemployed pilots with plenty of experience. At the moment easyJet, like most other jet operators in the UK, does not need to look at pilots between 500 - 1500hrs. It is doing so, albeit in a way that puts a fair amount of the risk on the candidate. It is up to the candidate as to whether they wish to take on that risk.

Rightly or wrongly the job market is European. There are still 300 ex Sabena guys without employment and a whole host of others. They've got type ratings and experience, and, at the moment, are willing to relocate.

At least those of you without experience and 500-1500 hours are getting a shot at jet employment. Afterall why should easyJet take on someone with no commercial experience over someone with a type rating and experience? Name me another airline in the UK that is offering jet employment with no commercial experience?

When the pilot shortage appears the shoe will be on the other foot, til then you're stuck with it, you choose! :confused:

[Maximum]

At the moment easyJet, like most other jet operators in the UK, does not need to look at pilots between 500 - 1500hrs.

Scottie, are you sure? I can't believe that easyjet are doing this for philanthropic reasons.

On the contrary I would suggest that they need to look at these guys/girls to ensure a balanced demographic spread across the pilot workforce, to avoid problems with retirement/command etc in the future.

[Scottie]

Probably a large element of truth in what you say Maximum.

However I know of a couple of employed airline pilots who have applied to eJ with less than 1500hrs who are waiting for assessment days.

Also we've got quite a few ex-Sabena FO's with less than 1500hrs who've joined so they're still finding "experienced" low houred FO's. But that source will eventually dry up.

Don't know of any low time zero commercial experience people coming through except through the ATP Academy scheme.

[Astronut]

Scottie how do you equate low hours with experience?
I am not having a go but less than 1500 hours, IMHO, does not in any way shape or form confer the term "experienced".

[Scottie]

Astronut I'm not going to get involved in some great long winded pedantic discussion to pick away at this and that, which normally seems to happen on pprune :rolleyes:

I merely meant someone with 1500 hours in the commercial environment as opposed to someone who has come out of OATS or instructed.

Here endeth my contribution to this thread. ;)

[Engee73]

Maximum

I think you over estimate the resources that are employed in the generation of suitability profiles at easyJet!

:D ;)

[Roadtrip]

No problem. After you take the scheme, you can always spend days-off on your knees in a bus station bathroom to get your self-respect back.