French registered planes and rules in the UK

[Monocock]

I'm looking to buy an "F" reg a/c and wondered if anyone out there might know where I stand in the UK with the associated regulations. Is it better to keep it on the F reg or get it transfered to the UK registration?

It is a PA28 so nothing complicated in terms of approval.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[rex]

Let me know how you get on with this subject . I might need to get about a bit on the continent in the very near future.

;) REX

[Dude~]

There are three things that need to be considered;
The country where your license is issued
The country the plane is registered with
The country you are flying in

Put simply, 2 of the above always need to be the obsereved. Ie, a UK CAA holder can fly an F reg plane in the Uk. or france, but technichally not another counrty because then license, plane and location would all be different. (you then need the contries permisiion) You can fly a G reg anywhere on a UK license because 2 out of 3 match up.
Hmm not making this very clear am I? Well put it this way, If you go to france and hire a plane, you can fly it back to France if you have a UK license. so basically no worries there. I did this loads when I lived in france. It was dead cheap and was fun confusing the AG operators with an F reg no. Also cheap as anything.

I presume buying a plane might be more complicated. Ie, when I wanted to bring myfrench motorbike home, as I was going to stay for longer than 3 mths in the Uk, obviously, the DVLA wanted all sorts of stuff done to it at considerable expense, but mainly paperwork. I guess the same applies to planes, otherwise you might find yourself having to return to france for paperwork and maintainance.

Better contact the FNA at www.fna.fr I think, or search for it!

[bookworm]

There are three things that need to be considered;
The country where your license is issued
The country the plane is registered with
The country you are flying in

Put simply, 2 of the above always need to be the obsereved.

The two out of three thing is a very neat idea, but unfortunately it has almost no basis in law.

In the UK, for private flights, licences issued by other ICAO states are rendered valid with certain restrictions. JAA licences are rendered valid without restriction. Either can be used for such flights in the UK, regardless of the state of registration of the aircraft.

Nor does it work in France. If you want to fly a G-reg on a private flight in France, you need a licence rendered valid by the UK. It can be a non-UK licence if you like, subject to the same restrictions as in the UK. In this case, one out of three is fine.

But if you want to fly an F-reg in France, you need a French licence (or probably, these days, a JAA licence) or an endorsement issued on the basis of a foreign licence. You cannot roll up with a US licence and just fly an F-reg, even though you have the "two out of three".

Unfortunately, I can't help with the original question. Perhaps the A&C section of the CAA can point you in the right direction. Or operators of other UK-based F-reg aircraft -- there's an F-reg TB-10 at Cambridge.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Bookworm,

But if you want to fly an F-reg in France, you need a French licence (or probably, these days, a JAA licence) or an endorsement issued on the basis of a foreign licence.

Not so, happily. I regularly rent aircraft in France using my UK licence. No endorsement is needed.

Back to the original question - I don't know which is better, but there are certainly a fair number of F registered aircraft operated in the UK, notably aerobatic ones.

I'd hazard a guess that for a PA28 it'd be less hassle in the long run to move it to the G register, but I don't know.

[Mark 1]

To re-register in the UK isn't too difficult:

Get export CofA in France.
Cancel French registration.
Get "ferry flight authorisation" from CAA (repeatedly if weather doesn't work out on the day)
Fly to UK
Register in UK
Put in CAA mandatory mods (starter engaged and low voltage warning lights)
Obtain new UK CofA

The bottom line will probably be £3-5k.

Keeping it on the French register means getting maintenance signed off in France and invalidates your IMC rating in the UK, otherwise not too much problem I believe.

[Julian]

May help:

Concerning the questions you asked me yesterday, here're the answers.

Question 1: a british citizen with a centre-Africa ICAO private licence
wants to fly from England to France on a British registred aircraft.

Answer : As long as the British Civil Aviation recognize the centre-Africa
ICAO private licence and allows the pilot to fly over UK, the pilot can fly
to France on a British aircraft (but not on a french one) regarded to the
British autorisation.

********************************

Question 2: What does the DGAC (French Civil Aviation) need to perform a
validation of a foreign ICAO licence (To allow a pilot to fly on a French
registred aircraft with a validation of his foreign licence)

Answer :

EEE: Germany, Austria, Belgium, Danemark, Spain, Finland, France, Greece,
Irland, Iceland, Italy, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Netherlands,
Portugal, UK, Sweden, Switzerland.
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| | original licence | original licence |
| | delivered by EEE state | delivered by a non EEE |
| | | state |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| Pilot belonging to EEE | 1 | 2 |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| Pilot not belonging to | 3 | 3 |
| EEE | | |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|



1 : The pilot can fly nothing is requested
2 : a validation is needed with a Copy of the resident card valid in the
non-EEE state
3 : a validation is needed

Documents needed for a validation of ICAO licence:

Copy of the licence (not a temporary licence)
Copy of medical certificate
Copy of the last page of the log book with the sum of hours done
Copy of the passeport or identity card
2 photos
A letter requesting the validation in which appears the adress (abroad) and
in France.
Make clear to which adress you want the validation sent.

Send all the documents to:

DISTRICT AERONAUTIQUE ILE DE FRANCE
BUREAU DES LICENCES
ORLY SUD N°108
94396 ORLY AEROGARES CEDEX
FRANCE

I hope you have all your answers, if you need more informations contact me.

Best regard.

Dominique MICHEL
DAC-Nord D2FL (DISTRICT IDF)
Office : Tel : 01.69.57.74.56. Fax : 01.69.57.74.71.
[email protected]


Info and various other questions/answers from

http://www.ukft.com/sims%20letter.html

[Julian]

May help:

Concerning the questions you asked me yesterday, here're the answers.

Question 1: a british citizen with a centre-Africa ICAO private licence
wants to fly from England to France on a British registred aircraft.

Answer : As long as the British Civil Aviation recognize the centre-Africa
ICAO private licence and allows the pilot to fly over UK, the pilot can fly
to France on a British aircraft (but not on a french one) regarded to the
British autorisation.

********************************

Question 2: What does the DGAC (French Civil Aviation) need to perform a
validation of a foreign ICAO licence (To allow a pilot to fly on a French
registred aircraft with a validation of his foreign licence)

Answer :

EEE: Germany, Austria, Belgium, Danemark, Spain, Finland, France, Greece,
Irland, Iceland, Italy, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Netherlands,
Portugal, UK, Sweden, Switzerland.
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| | original licence | original licence |
| | delivered by EEE state | delivered by a non EEE |
| | | state |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| Pilot belonging to EEE | 1 | 2 |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|
| Pilot not belonging to | 3 | 3 |
| EEE | | |
|------------------------+------------------------+------------------------|



1 : The pilot can fly nothing is requested
2 : a validation is needed with a Copy of the resident card valid in the
non-EEE state
3 : a validation is needed

Documents needed for a validation of ICAO licence:

Copy of the licence (not a temporary licence)
Copy of medical certificate
Copy of the last page of the log book with the sum of hours done
Copy of the passeport or identity card
2 photos
A letter requesting the validation in which appears the adress (abroad) and
in France.
Make clear to which adress you want the validation sent.

Send all the documents to:

DISTRICT AERONAUTIQUE ILE DE FRANCE
BUREAU DES LICENCES
ORLY SUD N°108
94396 ORLY AEROGARES CEDEX
FRANCE

I hope you have all your answers, if you need more informations contact me.

Best regard.

Dominique MICHEL
DAC-Nord D2FL (DISTRICT IDF)
Office : Tel : 01.69.57.74.56. Fax : 01.69.57.74.71.
[email protected]


Info and various other questions/answers from

http://www.ukft.com/sims%20letter.html

[bookworm]

I claimed:
But if you want to fly an F-reg in France, you need a French licence (or probably, these days, a JAA licence) or an endorsement issued on the basis of a foreign licence.

AF responded:
Not so, happily. I regularly rent aircraft in France using my UK licence. No endorsement is needed.

Yes, I stand corrected. As can be seen from Julian's post, the French authorities seem to have directly implemented the EU Directive that was, in effect, the precursor to JAA. All EU national licences seem to be rendered valid without formality. The key point is that you can't turn up in France and fly an F-reg using a non-EU licence, claiming that "two out of three match".

Mark 1 wrote:
Keeping it on the French register ... invalidates your IMC rating in the UK, otherwise not too much problem I believe.

I don't think it does. A UK licence or rating can be used for private flights in the UK on aircraft of foreign registration. ANO Art 21(3).