Easyjet Cadet Sponsorship

[Barney]

Just seen this appear on Easy's Website - no good if you're an old gimmer like me.

http://www.easyjet.com/en/jobs/pilotrecruitment_cadetsponsorshipscheme.html

[wolverhamptonlad]

New Zealand eh! Watch out for those sheep

[Grivation]

It would seem that Easy may be coming to the end of the supply of rated 737 drivers!

Have a close look at the Type Rating SPONSORSHIP scheme! Exactly where is the sponsorship? You pay us for the training and we'll repay you over 5 years at 5000 GBP/year. Yeah great, except the basic salary is 5000 GBP/year less than a normal first officer wage. :D

Why not just be honest and say that the jobs at easy will now require a self-sponsored type rating? Because (as has been pointed out elsewhere) people who own their own rating have the ability to up and leave without breaking a bond. Easy want it both ways - you pay for your training but we'll also bond you with your own money!:eek:

There is plenty of discontent in orange-land folks. They are finding it harder to attract experienced drivers. Please don't get yourself tied up in bank loans and a bond which you have already paid for.

PS : The spelling throughout the recruitment section of the website is bloody terrible!!

[Loretta]

I don't think I've ever heard of such a left-field method of putting yourself into comical, beyond-mortgage levels of debt. £60,000.00 is a huge amount to be saddled with if Easy decide they don't like you, or Uncle Dubya picks a fight. Easy appear to think this won't be a problem, but I'm not in the best of states after Uni already. Another £60k wouldn't so much push me over the brink, more strap me to a JATO unit and fire me off it.

That said, it's the only way I'm likely to get into the RHS before I'm 35, so here goes...

BTW can somebody post the link to CTC McAlpine, which is mentioned as a source of further onfo, but there's no link.

PS. Grivation: it's £12k/year over seven years. The £5k reference is your pocket money in NZ. Still a bit of a sting, though.

PPS: Can anyone confirm that a senior first officer is just a first officer with a full ATPL, or am I talking cobblers again?

[Tigereye]

...and the catch...

What happens if I pass the course but you don't employ me?

This would only occur if our plans for new hire pilots changed unexpectedly. However, in this most unlikely event you would remain liable for the repayments of any loan arrangements you have made, but our partners, CTC McAlpine, would make every effort to place you in alternative employment.

In your dreams

[no sponsor]

Does £60K sound like a lot of money for NZ training?

[Alex Whittingham]

CTC-McAlpine (http://www.ctc-mcalpine.com/)

[Luke SkyToddler]

Hmmmmmm ....

here's a bit of food for thought for you young wannabes, before you all go into hysterias of excitement into this.

The current going rate for a New Zealand FATPL is about $40,000 kiwi dollars.

The exchange rate this morning is 3.16 NZ$ to the GB pound.

In other words, a whole kiwi CPL/IR can be acquired for just under 13.000 pound.

Based on personal experience and a lot of my colleagues, the conversion from low time NZ CPL/IR to JAA FATPL will probably cost between 6,000 and 8,000 quid.

Then, you could go do the regular old CTC academy course for 6,000 quid.

You're now in a similar position to the Easy cadets, having forked out a total outlay of around 26,000 pounds ... a little under half of what Easy are asking you for.

Option 2, for those of you who were too old or didn't fancy going through CTC, could just go buy a regular 737 rating after your conversion, at whatever the going rate is (no idea but I'm guessing maybe 20,000 pound?)

Total outlay of 40 grand, and you're now a free agent with 737 rating, and no 7-year-bond-with-pitifully-small-salary to look forward to.

I'll do my best to find out which flying school in NZ is behind all this and get back to you all, however rest assured that on the initial figures it looks like you're paying way way over the odds for what you end up with ... someone is making an absolute PILE of cash at wannabe's expense here :mad:

[Fly_146]

someone is making an absolute PILE of cash at wannabe's expense here

'The perfectionist' no doubt has a large thumb in the pie on this one!

[tonyblair]

What are you guys on? The pay after joining the airline is better than the BA cadetship. That’s the only other one that doesn’t need a fortune up front and BA don’t do it anymore. This is streets ahead of the Britannia and Flybe cadetships that came up during the last couple of months. Check out the money back if you fail, etc. This is awesome.

There’s reference on one of the websites of JMC doing it too but not much info.

You moan and whinge all day about there being no jobs, and training costing too much, and the world owing you a living. Then along comes a chance and you moan and whinge about that. Well carry on moaning guys cause I want less competition when I apply for this.

:p :D :cool: :D :p

[kram]

Why are Easy doing this?

Isn't there enough people out there with hours and in desperate need of a job? Its like a kick in the face!

So why do all the airlines go on about needing so many hours to get a job with them when you can do a cadet scheme in jump straight into the RHS? Hours is just a culling method. The more hours you have may mean you have more experience but what Easy are now doing goes against that.

I just think its wrong if any airlines are doing cadet schemes at the moment with a lot of people still out of work.

Cadet schemes will always be the easy road to take if you can get it, and if you can great. But it undermines everyone else out there who are doing the hard yards.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Yeah, on reflection, it does gut me a bit to see this from Easy ... they are probably the UK company I would like to work for above all others ... I have around 10 times the hours that these cadets are gonna have, including a decent amount of IFR air transport and I haven't been able to get a sniff of interest from Easy ... meanwhile these cadets are going to take another few right seats away from the high-hours-but-no-type-rating direct entry boys.

Easy are about the only airline that's been hiring for the last 18 months, so fair play to them for finding a way to use their position in the marketplace to make money out of wannabe pilots, but it's bloody demoralising to watch people with not even 5 or 10 percent of your flying experience, sliding straight into a seat that you would dearly love to be in yourself :(

[sally at pprune]

Let me get this straight. You want me to give you £60,000. If I haven’t got it, you’ll lend it to me. In return, you are going to give me:

£84,000 back
£12,000 in living expenses
A 2 year course that includes everything I can think of
A fATPL
A 737 (or A319?) type rating
A job on a 737/A319

And that’s a bad deal? Keep talking my friends; I’m off to find the front of the queue.

:cool:

[AlphaCharlie]

Sounds like an okay deal to me!! If all goes well you get hired by EZY and have paid nothing for your training (in effect once EZY have repaid you your bond). If you don't get hired all you have done is paid for your own fAPTL, which you would have done anyway if you didn't get on to a sponshorship scheme.

2 questions:

1) Having read all the info, am I right in saying that applications don't open until 2.12.2002?

2) Has anyone heard any rumours about possible course dates? (Not getting overly optimistic or arrogant, but would be useful to know if they will want people by March or August.)

[timzsta]

Unfortunately I am too old now at 25 and 6 months. Those of you that do meet the entry requirements good luck. At the end of the day there are terms and conditions like any sponsorship, but at the end of the course you get the RHS of a nice new shiny 737 or A319 with little time in your logbook.

[sally at pprune]

Are you sure Timzsta? The way I read it you can be up to 25 years, 11 months and 30 days when you apply, but not 26! I assume the JMC limits are the same.

[calltheball]

Timzsta
Unfortunately I am too old now at 25 and 6 months.

Silly question but have you checked this out with Ezy??
-Just that my initial impression was over 25 means 26...Maybe i'm wrong but i'd be tempted to apply anyway and let them make the judgement! Best of luck!!

Kram
Cadet schemes will always be the easy road to take if you can get it, and if you can great. But it undermines everyone else out there who are doing the hard yards.

I think I see what you're trying to say but I'm not sure that I agree.
I know a lot of people in the industry that have come through the 'hard yards' of the self improver route to becoming a commercial pilot and likewise know many cadet pilots who have achieved their ambitions travelling along the 'easy road'.
I think it's difficult to make comparisons about the difficulty of either route, rather comparing apples and oranges.

Firstly many of the self improvers would not have been able to complete a cadet course -for a variety of reasons... family commitments, wrong place wrong time etc.. but by self improving it has allowed them to tailor their training and career progresssion to suit themselves and their lifestyles (children etc). I would agree that the level of commitment required to follow this route would be high, particularly as such a route usually takes far longer than an intensive cadet course.

However the cadet pilot has to make the commitment to drop pretty much everything for the year of the course. The day to day pressure that they face (with regard to the flying course at least) is quite high with the sponsoring airline always looking over their shoulder. The cadet usually has the RHS of a nice aeroplane to look forward to.........but try telling that to some of the sponsored cadets from various airlines graduating in the last two years...:(
Also the pressure of having someone else (the sponsoring company) having the final say on your training and progress adds to the pressure (A different type of pressure from the self improver with a 1001 other things to think about).

I think it's fair to say neither is an 'easy road'...and a few 'hard yards' are completed either way.

As for the schemes undermining everyone else out there again I would have to disagree. The airline industry is notoriously fickle -ring them at 9.30 they have no plans to recruit, 9.45 with two resignations on the desk and they have a crew shortage!! At least the schemes demonstrate a commitment by the airlines to taking a longer term view towards recruitment. There will always be companys who want to sponsor their own cadets for whatever benefits they believe it brings. However no company could sponsor the number of cadets required to meet all of the future demand of the industry. There will always be a requirement for non cadet entrants when the industry is on the up and no requirement for anybody (regardless of whether sponsored or not) when the industry is in decline. If I were you Kram, rather than believing people are being undermined, i'd be celebrating companies beginning to sponsor again- it's a sign of them thinking they'll need pilots again soon (whatever their background) -A good sign for all of us in the industry whether employed or not!

All the best,
CTB

[caaveman]

This reads like a transcript from “Life of Brian”

“What did JMC and easyJet ever do for us? Nothing, that’s what”
“Yeah, it’s a bloody rip off”
“Apart from the job at the end”
“Well, yes, there’s the job at the end, but other than that, what did they ever do for us wannabes?”
“And give us our money back”
“OK, so they give us our money back, and we get a job at the end. But other than that it’s a real rip off”
“Other than give us our money back if we fail”
“All right, so they give us a job at the end and give us our money back if we pass, and if we fail, but lets face it that’s a real scam”
“Yeah, a scam”
“They do of course give us 12 grand in allowances”
“Only 12 grand? Bloody hell, I could train in Outer Mongolia, get a bus drivers licence, convert it into a UK toilet cleaner’s pass, be paid half a million quid in allowances and have change out of a fiver. 12 grand, huh.”
“So, other than giving us a job at the end and give us our money back if we pass, and if we fail, and paying us 12 grand in allowances, what have the Romans done for us, eh?”
“Nothing, that’s what”
“Yeah, nothing”
“Except……”

[Artificial Horizon]

The thing that worries me about this sponsorship scheme is that the amount you are paying for the training seems to be atleas £20,000 over the going rate for this course.

I gained my NZCPL and IR over the course of a couple years and it set me back the grand amount of £12,000, this was the slow way of doing it as it wasn't a full time course. Add in all of my conversion costs to the JAR ATPL and I spent in total around the £21,000 mark. Since this is a semi structured course it would actually work out to me cheaper than this as there is no conversion costs if you do the JAR exams and flight tests instead of the NZ ones.

So where is the other £40,000 pounds going, take out the £5,000 living expenses and a type rated at a cost of £15,000 and you are still left with £20,000 that seems to dissapear. Then to rub insult to injury you are paid substancially less than a normal first officer. Yes you do get the bond back over the 5 years but you still have paid interest that this does not cover. Considering your are getting around £13,000 per year less than normal they are really just paying you a NORMAL wage. So its win win for Easyjet. Having said all of this however, who can turn their nose up at a 737 job and 9 months in NZ, not a bad way to go, so if you can support this cost then go for it but remember if it all goes pear shaped and you lose your job or EZ jet goes bust then £60,000 is a lot to owe considering you could have done it all on your own for £20,000 less!:)

[AlphaCharlie]

According to easyjet's website, they will be recruiting 24 cadets a year!

[tonyblair]

AH, far be it for me to question your maths – mine ain’t so great myself. But:

The way I read it is that you don't pay unless you leave the course or jack in your job. Having said that...

Where does this say it’s a NZ CPL/IR? It says in the FAQs bit that it’s a JAA licence. The cheapest JAA fATPL I’ve seen advertised is £30K. When I looked into that it had excluded everything possible; the real price would be loads more.

There’s a whole list of extras included in this. From the CTC MacAlpine website:

• Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Training fees
• Training equipment
• Uniform
• Headset
• Remedial training fees approved by CTC McAlpine
• Examination and test fees
• Examination and test re-sit fees
• PPL licence fee
• Accommodation in New Zealand and the Exam Phases in the UK
• Provision of personal transport in New Zealand
• Three air fares to and from New Zealand
• Food and accommodation during the intermediate and advanced phases
• Living allowances and expenses during the advanced phase

Now you can put your own value on that lot, but the advanced training includes a type rating and base training, the basic training includes 100 hours multi. You’ve got a year of accommodation only plus six months food and accommodation in there. So, over £30,000, what would you say that lot is worth?

How about:

£5,000 Extra multi time
£6,000 Intermediate training (CTC MCC course plus AQC Course)
£15,000 Type rating
£5,000 Base training
£? Extra training
£700 JAA Exam fees
£1000 CPL and IR fees
£? Re-sit fees
£10,000 Accommodation and food
£1,000 Shared car
£2,000 Airfares
£7,000 Advanced phase allowances
£5,000 Basic and intermediate phase allowances
£2,000 Insurance, niff naff, etc (uniforms & all that stuff)

Then there’s the cost of the failure protection insurance. I’ve no idea what that is worth. I’ve not included the things with ? marks, cause I wouldn’t know how to value them.

My figures are probably wildly out, but starting with the Woolworths of courses, that comes to £89,700. Now if you started with an OAT or BAe or Cabair course, you can see where easy came up with the figure of £100,000 worth of training.

I really cannot see how you come up with this being £20K over the top. £30K under maybe, but then the airline is sponsoring it.

[gul777]

easyJet have recently been turning down type rated experienced 737 guys for very incomprehensible reasons, that might be why they are getting short and starting a so called sponsorship scheme!!!!:confused:

[Grivation]

So run this by me again (I'm not fully up to speed on these cadet programs!) - You pay Easy 60,000 for training. For the next 7 years Easy pays you 12,000 less than an 'experienced' pilot (don't forget you're doing the same job).

12,000 x 7 = 84,000!!

Can someone point out where the sponsorship is?

[timzsta]

It has taken me a little while to get my head around this. I think I have got it now. You get through to be one of "the few". Go to see the bank manager who is a mate of CTC McAlpine. He gives you a loan for £60,000 which you hand over to Easyjet, and you dont have to pay any money back until you have finished your training.

You make it through training and get a salary from Easyjet, and in addition they pay you £1000 a month for 7 years to pay back your bond to the bank manager. Sounds like a very good deal to me!

If you dig deeper not all the training takes place in New Zealand - it says you will be there for about 9 months. So I guess the flying is all done over there, whilst the ground school stuff is back here in the UK.

Maybe I will apply, just need to be weary about when I hand over the £140 application fee re the age thing. It does also say that easy and CTC McAlpine will not enter into any conversation with applicants over queries they might have due to the high number of applicants they are anticipating.

Anyone got any information on where you stand if you already have Class 1, some or all of your ATPL writtens, hourse already in the logbook.

As for why are Easyjet doing this - perhaps they are actually thinking ahead and have realised the good times are over and the once seemingly endless supply of "type rated 737 pilots" is drying up, and if they want to continue their growth they will have to invest in training.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

For Chrisakes people! With the airline industry in severe recession one company announces a substantial new cadet scheme - and people whinge about it! Incredible!

Grivation So run this by me again (I'm not fully op to speed on these cadet programs!) - You pay Easy 60,000 for training. For the next 7 years Easy pays you 12,000 less than an 'experienced' pilot (don't forget you're doing the same job).

12,000 x 7 = 84,000!!

Can someone point out where the sponsorship is?

So run this past me again - BA "sponsor" you and then pay you less money than a direct entry pilot for 5 years. Ummm, what was the cadet entry salary again? Errr... £22,000. The easyJet salary will be higher even allowing for subsidised low interest payments on the loan. Every sponsorship scheme I can think of in this country has paid the cadets less than direct entry pilots. It is therefore Industry Standard Practice.

On the subject of training costs in NZ. This is not going to be a NZ license converted. Its a pukka airline designed ab initio JAA ATPL course - as I understand it. Now, having been involved with the delivery of such, I can attest to the fact that they are expensive beasts. Airlines are demanding customers in my experience. They want a few more twin hours here, an extra 5 hrs on the FNPT2 there, lets give 'em 5 hrs of aeros etc. etc. They want some slack in the system so if a cadet struggles for a first solo or needs a CPL re-test then so be it. They don't want to lose an expensively selected investment for the sake of a few more hours. Oh and groundschool is exactly the same. There is NO WAY easyJet is actually making money out of this. To suggest such is childish and ignobel.

Just because easyJet have turned down or shown no apparent interest in more experienced pilots does not mean they should not run a cadet scheme. Nor should BA, BMI, Britannia or any other airline you care to mention in the same boat be discouraged from doing so.

Cadets are useful in that they are content to sit in the RHS for quite a few years and - anyway - have no other option due to the bond. Thats handy because a large proportion of easyJet pilots in the RHS have enough hours for a Command course. And are itching to get one. Having some FO's who are less itchy is useful I imagine. I see nothing sinister in this.

This scheme is accessable to all. You do not need to have £30,000 in your bank or your parents bank. You need £140 for the tests - thats it.

If you are successful you are going to get a free CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC & 737 type rating. In addition you are going to get your first airline job the Monday morning after you finish training.

Now *that* is priceless.

Within 4 years of finishing training you could be eligible for a Command. A Command. Skipper of your own low mileage Next Gen 737 at the tender age of 23 is theoretically possible. Outside of the military tell me where else that could be aimed for?

Some people are whinging because you risk being chopped or the airline coming a croper and leaving you in debt. Well what happened to the cadets of a well known airline last year who were on a partial sponsorship just afeter Sept11th. They were told their services were no longer required. Oh an incidentally, the money you paid us for the course was the money we spent in the early days. Therefore you can continue at your own expense if you want to. Good luck and cheery oh. The world does not owe you a living and stuff happens - but its a lot less risk than paying for your own training and type rating and then hawking your CV around the country on the off chance.


WWW

[Bob Fleming]

Have you guys with a licence overlooked this little nugget on the easy website

http://www.easyjet.com/en/jobs/pilotrecruitment_typeratingsponsorshipscheme.html

500 hours and £23,000 and you're orange!

[prob30]

WWW, your eloquence is always required on this web site, but after reading this particular thread it was required even more so.

folks, if this is your attitude, there is no way you are going to get through an interview...If it was me interviewing I just wouldn't want you in my airline squabbling and moaning and whinging about things... every day I read this forum it just staggers me, and at the same comforts me that this is the attitude of the competition for jobs.

In the Britannia thread there are people moaning they haven't had a letter to confirm the application has been received and moaning they don't know when the sim ride will be and moaning that he said she said whatever.... Exactly how important do you consider yourselves to be??

[Grivation]

Yeah good call WWW! Everyone should dive head first into any and every scheme that the airlines dish up without asking questions or airing reservations. :rolleyes:

I can't see the problem in batting a couple of points around.

I will ask the question again both in regard to the type rating sponsorship (25,000) and cadet sponsorship (84,000) schemes - Where is the sponsorship?

[tonyblair]

Grivation

Did you consider that the BA cadet scheme was sponsorship?

If no, then I guess there never was and never will be one in your dictionary. If yes, pray tell me why you don’t think the easyJet cadet scheme is? Seems identical to me:

- I need no money to get onto it
- Someone else funds my training
- All being well, I get a job at the end
- Oh, as I bringless to the airline than a direct entry pilot, I start on a lower salary

The only difference I can see is that a Bank is providing the working capital, rather than the airline. Personally, I don’t give a toss who puts up the money as long as it is not me!

There are other small, but important differences. There is risk to me if I never get a job and another if I fail during the latter stages of training. I’m prepared to take those risks; of the several people I know of who were all sponsored or part sponsored and in training after 911, all are now working for airlines, if not the ones they were sponsored by. The other differences are the allowances on this scheme which are better, I think, than any other.

I do still have some questions – if there is anyone from CTC McAlpine reading this, I think several queries have been aired here – can’t you answer them please?

[purple haze]

just a quick q,

when is the closing date for the application,

and can you apply if your 25 and a half.

cheers

[Grivation]

We aren't debating BA's scheme Tonyblair - we're talking about Easyjet.

As a 7th year driver you should expect to be in the LHS with Easy. What I find ironic is that the Captain who does the sector after me, who sits in the LHS and does the same job as me is paid 12,000 less because he is "inexperienced" and still considered a "cadet" by the company?!?

The type rating SPONSORSHIP scheme also makes me cringe. Easy have employed many guys/girls previously in the 500-1500 hour backet and none have been asked to attend an "advanced handling course" or pay for a type rating. Why the sudden change?

Hint : it has nothing to do with -

"We view our people as our Number One asset and they are fundamental to our success. We take recruitment very seriously and we require the highest professional standards alongside a complimentary cultural fit. Core to the easyJet culture is our significant investment in pilots' training and career development."

Nothing can be further from the truth!

[D McQuire]

I can´t believe people are knocking this scheme. There have been a huge bunch of people waiting for something/anything like this to come along for over a year now.

Personally I think it´s excellent to see easyjet stick there neck out and invest in this for the future. You may say it´s not costing them, well short term it bloody well is. Just like it cost BA and Aer Lingus an absolute fortune to cover full sponsorship. But did they get a full return on their investment? Too right. CEP pilots with those airlines could look forward to significantly lower pay than their DEP counterparts for the first 5 years of their bonded stint. Not too many complained about it either.

Plus it´s good to see another sign of an upswing in the market :)

Best of luck to those applying.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Grivation - feel free not to apply then I guess.

WWW

[exfi]

good point d mcguire - already made by www i don’t know of any cadet scheme that doesn’t mean joining the airline on a cadet salary usually for the period of the bond and usually substantial

that includes ba/aer lingus/flybe/air2000/airtours/britannia/klmuk british midland etc these guys are just being up front about it which is pretty unusual for the training industry lets face it

the other great thing about this scheme is that it is full sponsorship i don’t know of any other that is 100% other than ba

grivation interesting point you make about being paid the same for the same job no matter who you are. the logical conclusion of that is communism certainly you can forget annual increments or any form of seniority payments. what you are suggesting is that the airline has to pay exactly the same irrespective of what they spent on someones training. i think if i was joining an airline type rated as a direct entrant i would expect to negotiate something better than someone who came in via a fully funded cadet scheme

if you don’t mind me asking a personal question what has upset you so much all your recent posts seem to be having a go at something or other. my typing is fair game ;)

there are some good things in life and imho this cadet scheme is one of them for anyone wanting to get into this profession

good on yer easy and jmc :cool:

[Macman]

Grivaviation,

Just don't understand what your problem is - the terms and conditions are all there in black and white. If you don't like 'em don't apply.

TTFN:)

[Grivation]

OK firstly I'll apologise for my tone over the last couple of weeks. I have been forced to fly a desk for a month while the boss is away and am not my usual happy self.:(

I've re-read your arguments for the cadet scheme and although I don't agree with it 100% I conceed there may be some advantages to both parties. I have never previously paid any attention to the cadet schemes run in the past and was quite horrified by what Easy were offering. However, if Easy's scheme is on a par with what's been run in the past and you are happy that it provides for a win-win outcome then who am I to argue.

I still, however, have some concerns with what is being offered in the Type Rating Sponshorship. Personally I believe that Easy management have realised that we are at the bottom of the recruitment cycle. They state on their website that they have enough experience in the company to fill all of the LHS next year by FO upgrades. They are now in a position to look at some of the less experienced applicants to ensure an even demographic spread throughout the pilot body. What I think they are doing is using the current 'bleak' recruitment situation and attempting to harness some of the desperation that exists by offering a so called 'Type Rating Sponsorship'. Smart move by Easy management - they get to lock in lower salaries for the next 5 years. Easy are expecting to recruit close to 150 FO's next year. Lets assume that 50% of those end up paying for their own ratings. 75 x 5000 x 5 = 1.875 mil GBP saving on wages alone! And no training risk to boot!

I don't like being argumentative (I'm sure you find that hard to believe) but these pages are read by the newest of the new to our industry. I believe someone needs to keep reminding them that aviation is a very competitive business and airlines may not always be the same type of kind, caring and considerate organisations that your dad and grandad worked for. Now feel free to make your own choices but please be aware that there are two sides to every argument.;)

[tailscrape]

Well, all I can say is this:

If you are desperately looking for a job, then this will seem like a dream come true.

However, when you are still paying off your £60000 plus interest loan in seven years time, you may think differently.

Add to that the fact that easy will promote you to Command around then and you have to take a reduced Captains wage.....which is worse than a senior FO wage in other companies......

I have no doubt that the scheme will be a success, and that it will be grossly oversubscribed. However, those who get on it, just mark my words. I bet you will agree with them in time.

However, good luck to all of you who apply!

[batty]

Tailscrape, one of the points of the scheme is that the 60K paid out is paid back by Easyjet at the rate of £1000 month over the first 7 years of employment. The cadet therefore in the end is fully sponsored and has a jet job from completion of the course.

At the end of the day you get nothing for nothing, there is something in it for both sides, cadet has a job and Easy has cheap labour of the first 7 years.

In the current climate I dont think this is a bad scheme.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

However, when you are still paying off your £60000 plus interest loan in seven years time, you may think differently.

Huh? They give you back £1,000 a month of your bond to pay off the debt. I'd just file that in my head as "loan repayment" and spend my salary.

Add to that the fact that easy will promote you to Command around then and you have to take a reduced Captains wage.....which is worse than a senior FO wage in other companies......

The cadet Captain salary will be £48,000 + about £10,000 a year duty pay + the 5% (£2,400) annual bonus for length of service by then + any further profit share and/or share options. Lets call that £62,000. Oh actually the sector pay is 70% tax free so it equates actually to more like £64,000. + of course the companies 7% pension contribution.

Where are these senior first officers again?

Oh and you need 3,500hrs for command eligibity. 900hrs times 4 years = 3,600hrs.


There is no denying it is a hot hot scheme. Particularly given to dearth of alternatives right now.

The only downside is that its going to make it harder for the poor old self sponsored guy to get a job in the open market. And it would have been nice if the flying training was done in the JAA so helping out jobbing instructors.


WWW

[no sponsor]

I think it is unwise for young chaps/chapesses applying to this scheme who believe pilots earn lots of cash, or are in anyway motivated by money. If that is your desire in life, then do something else, and fly privately. Gone are the days of BA pay scales and final salary pension schemes: you won't get rich being a pilot.

At the bottom of this argument lies the experience of a Mr Souter, who founded the stagecoach company, and realised that a wage bill is the single biggest way to ensure you don't meet your profit targets, and hence took a different approach to wage demands for his drivers. I cannot see pilot salaries suddenly changing in their general downward trend.

I see no reason for not having this debate. No-one in their right mind would not apply if they met the criteria and their aims are sound. My view of being expensive was incorrect, as I thought you had to pay money up-front yourself, this is not the case.

Of course, if you are under 26, then apply for the post. You would be mad not too, and will regret not doing so. Training in Mordor for a year should be fun too, and you'll be one of the very few airlines that is growing, has investor confidence, and has an order book for new aircraft. I just wish they'd dropped the Orange paint, and used the GO marketing dept instead.

I'm waiting for all the BA-like wannabe cadet questions to start pouring in over the next few months...

[Roper]

WWW, good point about JAR Instuctors missing out on all the flying training that will be done by local instructors in New Zealand. Also, this is a modular course, a very interesting deviation from nearly every airline recruitment departments saying low houred bods must come from an integrated course...

I really have grave doubts the school in New Zealand can deliver on this. They will have to have full JAR approval (do they have it yet?), and will need close monitoring by experienced training providers. Only 2 schools in the past have tried something like this outside of Europe and both of those were integrated schools, and both made a pigs ear of things. Only hope they know what they are doing, but somehow I doubt it.

Someone mentioned it is costly compared to local NZ costs, well it is not NZ training!

[scroggs]

I have just got off the 'phone after talking to one of the 'movers and shakers' in this scheme, from the McAlpine side of things. This is a guy I've known for 25 years, and I trust his judgement and word. My overall impression is that this is a very worthwhile scheme, and by far the most significant development on the 'Wannabes' front for some considerable time. If you are a Wannabe, and aren't already well into your training, then you should be looking very closely at this.

Firstly, this scheme is not limited to EasyJet, though they are the launch customer for it. EZ will be putting 24 cadets into the course in 2003, JMC will be putting 4 in. There are 6 places a month available, ie 72 a year, at present. While other airlines are likely to get involved, there are individual places available right now for those who are prepared to take the calculated risk that they could find themselves graduating with no job. In that case, I understand that CTC-McAlpine would continue to 'hold-pool' you until you were placed with an employer - and you would not be faced with instantly repaying your loan on graduation.

For those who haven't checked out the CTC-McAlpine website (www.ctc-mcalpine.com (http://www.ctc.mcalpine.com)), this scheme is rather different from any other training set up. Firstly, the airlines are the customers, not the students. The airline contracts with CTC-McAlpine for a given number of line-ready pilots at a pre-defined cost (which is a lot more than your bond!), and to be delivered at a pre-defined date. Those airlines can either use their own recruiting system, or can rely on CTC-McAlpine's selection procedure. That means that this scheme can absorb students who are not sponsored at entry, but may become so during their training.

Of course, no student is guaranteed employment on graduation - as the BA Cadets discovered last year - but the nature of this course is such that it's unlikely that any graduate would remain unemployed for long, given reasonable market conditions. By 'the nature of this course' I mean that the course has apparently been developed to more closely reflect the demands of current civil airline practice right from Day 1 - and it goes right to the end of line training on type. I don't want to start an argument with the staffs of BAe or OAT, however, so I can't comment on whether the content of the course is better or worse than anyone else's.

Anyone can apply for the course, but older and more experienced candidates are probably less likely to be selected. That doesn't mean that you can't apply, nor that you won't be selected, however! I understand that there are procedures in place to adapt the course for successful candidates who have some experience. For those applying for the EZ scheme, the age limit on application is 25 years, 11 months, 30 days. For JMC, it is a year older. For non-airline-sponsored students, there is no official age limit, I gather; each candidate would be assessed on their merits. Bear in mind that CTC-McAlpine will have to sell you to an airline before you graduate, and you'll understand why I believe that older candidates are less likely to be selected. i may be wrong, however.

I've suggested that CTC-McAlpine open a questions e-mail link on their website, and that they then post a FAQ page once the typical questions become clear.

Look very carefully and consider all your alternatives, but don't dismiss this scheme quickly! Applications will only be taken via the website, from 2nd December 2002, and I understand that courses begin in February 2003.

Lastly (having read through this post!) I should emphasise that I have no connection with CTC-McAlpine, EasyJet, JMC or any other involved organisation!!

Edit for more age info

Ok. a little more info on the age thing: EZ: 19 to less than 26 at application; JMC: 19 to less than 27 at application; direct applicants to CTC-McAlpine: 19 to less than 26 at application. There may be scope for flexibility as other airlines get on board.

[purple haze]

sorry but does anyone know when the deadline is, or is it simply ongoing.

cheers

PH

Ps scroggs that was a very clear and comprhensive account of the scheme. thanks

I guess thats what PPrune is all about, otherwise i think most people wouldnt even hear about these schemes.

[stevie h]

Yet again it has been left to the moderators to bring some sanity to a thread. WWW has been fairly accurate in his assessment of the industry post911, and i for one am glad that i followed his (and others) advice about starting training. Not being presumptious either as i realise these positions will be hot property, but it's the news that most of us have been waiting for for just over a year now - at least there is some hope now.
Fairplay to easyjet for sticking their neck out too, especially given the situation in Iraq. Things can change quickly though as we all know too well!

[gareth]

This is an interesting topic which I read only because I was sponsored myself. On first reading I thought is was basically a joke. How on earth would apply for this?
Having read some sensible replies I rememeber when I in the same situation a few years back and I would have been on the phone the second I saw it! Getting into flying is never easy and I have never regretted my decision (I moan occasionally like every pilot) but I would not change it for the world and if you really want to be a pilot then go for it, you won't regret it.
The scheme could be better (and easy have really tried to sell it!) but if you get it you will be an F/O and then Capt of a major airline having the time of your life (and having no life which you have to accept). It will be majorly subscribed I'm sure so good luck to you all.

[Jetset Willy]

Can't find a way of contacting easy directly, so thought I'd ask here... Does anyone know whether a 'flexible' attitude is taken to the age limits (like BA used to). I've just turned 26 :(
Reckon it's still worth applying?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

From what I gather the actual flying is been done in NZ by Simulflight. From the course specs it looks like they have upped the hours considerably over JAA minimums. Total hours up by about a third and multi hours virtually doubled. Big increase in actual solo time as well. Looks like a very comprehensive course thats for sure.

Groundschool to be done by Bristol methinks.... Alex! Care to confirm or deny?

Cheers


WWW

[scroggs]

Jetset

I believe that EZ are unlikely to be flexible about age, but you could always give it a go. Don't forget that this scheme is not limited to EZ, though. JMC are also involved, and their age limit is 26/11/30 at date of application. You can also apply for a place in your own right through CTC-McAlpine. It would be unsponsored to begin with, but they wouldn't take you on if they didn't believe they could place you.

[Alex Whittingham]

Guilty.

[pholooh]

I've just been reading through easyjet's website and I think it says something about no guarantee for a job.

Am I guaranteed a job?

No airline cadet scheme guarantees a job. The commitment we give is that subject to your satisfactory performance in training, and our recruitment plans remaining unchanged, we intend to offer employment to graduating cadets. That is exactly the same conditional offer that any other cadet scheme offers

Though I am not a pessimist, I will approach any 'sponsorship' scheme with caution especially as the current political andfeconomic situation will not guarantee that our recruitment plans remaining unchanged
It's just my view.

[Splat]

Worrying as it sounds, this could be the only way in.

Now if I had 25K to invest in a TR, provided I was to be offered a job at the end of it, I'd do so. I'm interested, but is my interest of any interest to the low costies (sorry)?

Point I'm trying to make is that both Easy and Ryan both want all applications via the web. That's fine, but I see no provision for my interest, or is that secondary to getting an interview?

[laurie]

Hardly any information available on simulflight. Is it a new start up by the old management of Flight 2000 in Ardmore?

Luke Skywalker?

[andy s2]

scroggs,

Thanks for the very comprehensive 'inside' information. Just one question- do you know if the course for successfully selected sponsered candidates starts in February for everyone, or are there different started dates later on in the year?

andy

[scroggs]

Andy
As there are only 6 places per course, it's obvious that EZ's students will be staggered through the year. I don't know whether it's planned that EZ will take four courses, or whether their students will fit in as and when.

pholooh and Splat, sorry, my irony detector has gone berserk. Your points are...?

[Splat]

scroggs

I'm fortunate enough to be able to fund my own rating, but would that fact be of shall I say 'extra' interest to anyone in the current climate?

S

btw, I'm not paying for a TR without a sniff of a job at the end.

[scroggs]

Splat,

I still don't fully understand your point. The EZ/JMC scheme gives much more than a 'sniff' of a job at the end of it. No employer will guarantee a job until you have successfully completed all their training and, even then, outside factors can and do screw it up occasionally.

For those with middling hours (500-1500) and no type rating, the EZ type-rating scheme offers an excellent answer. Yes, you pay for the rating (after a fashion) - but only after you've got the job. Remember, the rating you're getting is easyJet's own type and line training package. Notwithstanding their preference for type-rated direct entrants, they won't give credit for your externally-acquired rating unless it's accompanied by reasonable hours on type. In other words, you must have completed training to line release with a reputable operator. That costs serious money.

For others concerned about the age limits with regard to the ab-initio training scheme, please see the edit to my long post above.

[Splat]

scroggs,

I'm not advocating paying for a rating, but I'm more than happy to if there is a job at the end of it, and it's been my belief that this was the way the industry was heading. I guess you've sort of answered my original query.

S

[Jetset Willy]

Thanks Scroggs!

[Waypoint 11]

Scroggs,

Thanks for all of the information.

I've had a look on the JMC and CTC-McAlpine websites and can't find anything about the 26 when you apply thing. The CTC-McAlpine website states that the maximum age is 25 on application. I am currently 26 and a half, can you through any additional light on the subject?

If I am too old for the full sponsorship does the same age restriction apply to the type rating sponsorship with easyjet (thinking a year or so down the line?)

Thanks,

Waypoint 11


WWW,

I have sent you a couple of private messages but I'm not sure if they are getting through to you, please can you advise.

Thanks.

[tonyblair]

Waypoint

The wording on the CTC-McAlpine site (http://www.ctc-mcalpine.com/selection.htm) has changed and is now much clearer. From that I would read that you are not eligible. However, the rules for the JMC sponsorship have clearly not been published yet. I'd guess Scroggs is in the know and when they are published (assuming JMC do intend to tell us the criteria) you'll find the age range is a year older & you'll be eligible for JMC.

As there are no age limits published on the EJ site for the sponsored type rating, I'd guess that there are none, but Scroggs will know better.

[carb]

I don't like this arbitrary age cut-off business.

I mean, sure, they can specify whatever characteristics they want and there will still be more than enough applicants to choose from, and sure, being 26 and a half I've got a few months less to run until retirement or loss of medical, but, in terms of still being fresh and trainable, I just happened to do a 4-year Scottish degree, take a gap year, do a Masters and then by popular demand get elected to sabbatical office. Now here I am, free at last at 26, and ready to sign up to a career, and already I'm too old, presumably according to bureaucrats and statisticians. How fair is that!! What a crap world this is :rolleyes:

I'm just going to apply anyway if the online form will let me :D

[no sponsor]

Carb: I agree. Its a tough world, and we all figure out that no-one owes you a living.

I went through the same heartache when BA dropped their age requirements a few years back, pricing me out of eligibility. At 31 I'm considered by these chappies to be untrainable.

[carb]

Yeah well, if it was too easy then I for one wouldn't be so keen. When I see a closed door I want to kick it in.

But in 30 years time once I'm in charge, things will be fairer!!

[tonyblair]

Yeah, must be tough spending 26 years avoiding work to find that nobody wants you ;)

[Hoping]

carb,

How long did the sabbatical last, two years? I did a 3 year degree, a masters degree and a year out and I was 'free' by the age of 24.

I started applying for sponsorships rather late at the age of 23. Now that I am 26 I have a small list of things I can refer to when explaining that I am derermined to become a pilot:
A Class One medical, a few hours flying lessons, and about five almost successful pilot sponsorship applications behind me.

In comparison to others, my list of efforts to become a pilot is not very good at all, which is probably why I don't have a sponsorship.

To get a sponsorship you need to be able to prove that flying is your number one priority in life. Before family, before lifestyle, before financial freedom... Can you come up with a believable story as to why you spent so much time in university rather than working in an aviation related job?

It is very hard explaining these decisions. I've been trying for a while without success.

Good luck though!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Hardly any information available on simulflight. Is it a new start up by the old management of Flight 2000 in Ardmore?

Luke Skywalker?
Follow the links on the Mcalpine website and you would have got here :
http://www.mcalpine-training.com/trainingnz.htm
Here's their official website : www.simuflight.co.nz

Yes it's my understanding they're part of the former Flight 2000. It's interesting in that they're certainly not the biggest player at Ardmore airfield, and I don't think they've had a cadet contract before. I can tell you that the management staff at the two 'big' schools on the airfield (Massey and AFS) are absolutely spewing over this :D

I've never had anything to do with them in terms of business, although I've been inside their premises a few months ago, and remember getting the impression are that their building was extremely small and full to capacity when I saw it, I presume they've got some expansion plans for the buildings to accommodate this cadet contract.

I must add my 2 pence worth, that I consider Ardmore Airfield itself to be an overstretched, uncontrolled nightmare of a place, prepare yourself to share the circuit most days with between one and two dozen non-english-speaking no-situational-awareness mad lunatics of chinese cadets, dodgy-R/T warbirds and twin trainers, and to be cut up on a regular basis by some of the world's worst extremely aggressive and ill mannered instructors both young and old. In addition to that, South Auckland is without a doubt the nastiest, lowest-socio-economic, most slum resembling armpit of a place in New Zealand. :rolleyes: (All those NZ-scenery photos on the Mcalpine website are from the lower South Island which is about a 1000 miles away :D It would be closer to the truth if anyone's interested to go find a fairly famous NZ movie called "Once Were Warriors", it was filmed in the suburb just across from Ardmore.) Those of you who are lucky enough to get on this course, make sure you take a few looonnng cross countries while you're here, get out south of the Bombay hills and see the real NZ won't you.

[carb]

'TonyBlair' -- Touche! I have, though, fitted in plenty of 'proper' work, just, couldn't quite squeeze a full fATPL into the diary and frankly I'm glad, I'd have missed out on so much else, not least of all some pretty hair-raising cross-country PPL flying.

My point was that for some people just past 26, we haven't necessarily spent the last several years perpetually re-applying, wasting away in some other career, or on the dole or breeding like rabbits. I'm still a commitment-free blank canvass ready to be brainwashed. I'm surely less of a risk than a 19-year old as I've already done everything else that might possibly tempt me to drop out of flight training or an airline job.

'Hoping', thanks... I hadn't thought of the "how come this sudden devotion to a career in aviation?" issue... I reckon I can speak to that given a chance to appear for interview, though. The masters took 2 years as I did an applied project, the sabbatical just 1 year... during which I pioneered the use of budget airlines by student unions sending officers to conferences!!

[tonyblair]

Sorry Carb, couldn't resist it. :D

I get the impression from Scroggs' posts that you'll be in the JMC age bracket though.

[sally at pprune]

Scroggs, you seem to know what's going on!

If I've understood this correctly, when the doors open on 2 Dec, we can apply for 3 sponsorships:

easyJet
JMC
CTCMcAlpine

Financially, they all work in the same way, i.e. CTCMcAlpine sponsor you through basic and intermediate training & then sell your body to an airline who sponsor your advanced training (and get your bond). The only difference in the CTCMcAlpine sponsorship and the airline's is that you don't know which airline you're going for yet, and there are hints that there might be more about to join in other than JMC and easy.

If I've read that right, is there anything to stop me applying for them in turn, or do I have to apply for all at once? If I decide to go for the CTCMcAlpine sponsorship, do I get to choose which airline I'm going to or is it take it or leave it?

Just thinking tactics!

[tonyblair]

You told me your body was not for sale Sally ;)

[scroggs]

Luke

sounds like good training for some of the places that easy and JMC go to! Seriously though, and before anyone asks, I have no knowlege of the nuts and bolts of the school, its aircraft or its home, and I'm sure we'd all welcome whatever intelligence we can gather.

Sally

as I understand it, your summary is correct. I don't know if you could apply for all three, but I see no reason why not. I assume you would make your application in three different places (the websites of the individual companies), and that, to me, is no different to applying for BA, Britannia and flyBE on the same day.

carb

Sorry mate, but life's tough like that. You have to keep your eyes on all the balls if you're to make the most of your opportunities. As it happens, you're still OK for the JMC scheme - but there are many, many Wannabes a good deal older than you who will never have the chance of a sponsorship. That's because they, like you, decided to do something else with their lives at the age that these things are offered. It's nothing new, and the facts on which this principle of training young are based have been well known (and indisputable) for many years.

Waypoint

The type-rating scheme is, as far as I know, an in-house easyJet thang and has nothing to do with CTC-McAlpine. I can't see why there would be any age limit in particular, but they may state something like 'age commensurate with hours'. This would be similar to many expat-hiring airlines that insist on 'hours commensurate with age', and avoids 58-year olds with 600 hours applying. What they'll be looking for is people who can offer not just the five years of the bond in service, but probably at least five years in a command after that. That means that it's unlikely that anyone over, say, 45 would be eligible. But that's just my guess - for the definitive answer, you'll have to watch the easyJet website. Unless WWW can help?

[HollyDog]

Hi Folks

I'd like to echo Luke ST's assesement of Ardmore Airfield traffic. I spent two years flying in NZ, using Ardmore as my base. With two main schools - and a few more much smaller outfits (including Simuflight !!), combined with a large number of sudent / new PPL's and many foreign pilots (with dubious r/t) made for an interesting time whilst in the circuit and general training area. Ardmore is the busiest airfield (also read airport) in NZ.
Having said that I clocked up over 120 + hours x/c and it was the best flying of my life (especially once clear of the Bombay hills or Auckland ) Superb scenery, no traffic, loads of beautiful and challenging airstrips (lots of gravel and grass) and very little radio work. Great if you want to be a bush pilot but big jets ?!
Plus only one runway and no ATC - the place has always been an accident waiting to happen, but the mind boggles to see such an overstretched airfield pushed even further.:eek:

[AlphaCharlie]

Scroggs and Sally

Now I could be wrong, and scroggs you really seem to in the know about this scheme, but the way I read it on the CTC-McApline website (page about selection process right down at the bottom http://ctc-mcalpine.com/selection_process.htm) was that:

1. You apply on their website
2. You go through the selection process
3. You are successful and offered a place
4. Once accepted, Easyjet and JMC will then look at you and decide whether they think you are suitable for them - if yes you will be 'assigned' to them, if no you stay as a CTC sponsor.

[ElNino]

"No employer will guarantee a job until you have successfully completed all their training and, even then, outside factors can and do screw it up occasionally."

Your damn right outside factors can screw it all up: witness the Aer Lingus cadets. I'd still do it all again without hesitation though and I can't imagine why people would not want to do the EZY course.

[scroggs]

AC

I'll try and check this out and get back to you. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Sagey]

How many times do you think people can apply, is it like Malgus ie you pay the money and then can take the tests (if you're application is accepted of course), or is it one shot saloon or you can re-apply after say one year.

Sagey

[scroggs]

AC

Looks like you're right: CTC McAlpine handle all the applications on behalf of the member airlines, so it's unlikely you could apply for more than one airline. Sorry if I've misled you, or Sally. For more FAQs, check out CTC McAlpine FAQ page. (http://www.ctc-mcalpine.com/faq.htm)

[commercialdan]

Hi, im a new wannabe here. Teaching PPL(A)at EGMC.

I really want this job. Im just about ready to apply for it. One thing i'm wondering about is why, if the airlines are receiving bundles of job applications every day, they decide to advertise these schemes. It's good for us people 'straight out of school', but if we are that determined enough to get ourselves a job, we would send in a cv anyway right? They must have a list of applicants who they are 'tracking to check your career progress'. Why don't they contact the applicants, if they don't already. Just a bit strange I think.


:confused:

[Airbus.De]

Hello All

I have a couple of questions for you I am sorry if they are dupplicated but I cant be botherd reading all 6 pages as there seems to be some ping pong goin on.

Anyway

Is it 9 continuous months in NZ?

Where will the training take place in the UK?

I have a Wife and son I am in a good job as an Airbus ac Electrician based in Hamburg do you think its worth giving this up (the job I meen)

Do you think they would let me take my Wife and son with me or should I stay where I am and pay for myself on the modual route?

For the line training I belive you get £1000pm do you think they will let you train in your local area ( My local HUB Liverpool.

Cheers for the info

Phil

[stringfellow hawke]

I've read with interest the 6 pages of debate going on here. I suspect I'm too old at the grand old age of 28, but does anyone know the age limit on the JMC sponsorship, seeing as the Easy and McAlpine ones are 26?

Someone somewhere said they thought it was higher, but I can't find any reference to it on the JMC website. Anyone found the relevant info on the JMC site and can you provide a link?

Thanks guys.

[Patsy 001]

Everyone notice the requirement with easyJet to have 3 A Level Passes over grade C (incidentally , CTC only require 2 A Level passes over grade C)?

I wonder if the "or equivalent educational qualifications" means you can have greater than 3 C's in terms of UCAS points, but not actually have 3 C's, ie A, C & D?

Good to see easyJet setting a trend in the low cost airline recruitment, wonder if MOL will do the same in Ryanair?!

[scroggs]

commercialdan

I think you'll find that easyJet's recruiting office (which is probably one person) is quite busy enough dealing with all the applications for direct entry positions. As you will no doubt have realised, having read both this thread and easyJet's website, the selection for this scheme is done by CTC McAlpine, not easyJet.

Stringfellow

Go back and read the 6 pages again. All the answers are contained within.

Airbus.de

Why should anyone be bothered to employ you if you can't be bothered to read the information presented here and on easyJet's and CTC McAlpine's websites? Be bothered, or do something else for a living.

Patsy

I doubt that easy's idea of equivalence coincides with yours! I think it's more likely that they are referring to Scottish Highers, International Baccalaureate or other similar educational qualifications.

[Diggler43]

Cheer up people

I am new to the site but have to admit that far too many of you are looking a gift horse in the mouth. I think that everyone should stand back and look at the up coming opportunities, I mean, look at this time last year, what hope did you all have about become a commercial pilot? Personally after graduating I took a job in Aero Eng, which if i be honest is a second option and I have been quite frustrated with the fact that I may be too old by the time sponsorships start up again, so to see Eazy Jet and Britannia start up then it gives me a lot more confidence and a goal to work towards.

All the best to all of you who apply.

[Engee73]

Well said Scroggs and WWW.

Just to add some more sanity, a few things to consider.

easy will only profit from this if you fly for them. In other words it is not to their advantage to have you go through the training and not get placed. We want you to pass and we want to give you a job. The only reason a clause is included to allow an opt out is if market conditions change significantly i.e. their are no jobs available. This I feel is unlikely given the following;

the reason this course exists in the first place is that it is predicted that their will not be sufficient candidates in the future to meet the recruitment needs of the company.

We have 120 airbuses on order, 65 737's at present and a further 14(or 15) 737-700's to arrive over next year.

As has been mentioned earlier, it is unlikely you could get this quality of training even if you were to pay for it yourself.

If you were lucky enough to get a command within the 7 years consider this.

Most captains on jet transport take significantly longer than seven years from start to finish to get there. I consider myslef extremly lucky, it took me just over 9 years and I was the first of my peers to do so. That includes all the friends I made in aviation on my way through in the early years including the instructor on my first flight (now A320 cap with Dragonair)

If I had this opportunity at any time during my early years I would most definately have applied.

Good luck to those who apply.

disclaimer: Whilst I do work for easyjet this is not an official statement on behalf of the company, just MHO!;)

[scroggs]

I've had some more clarification about who you can apply for and how it works:

An airline may choose to have a totally own-branded selection process and therefore their own application website, but neither easy nor JMC have gone for this. One of the early questions an applicant will be asked by CTC McAlpine is which schemes they would like to apply for. At the moment those available are JMC, easy and CTC McAlpine's own. The application will then be processed on the basis of the answer to that question.

The first 4 stages of selection are common to all 3 schemes. If CTC McAlpine believe a successful applicant is particularly suited to one of the sponsoring airlines and they have indicated that they are keen to apply to that airline, then they will refer the applicant to that airline. This does not mean that those not referred to an airline at the start are lower quality applicants – each airline has its own culture and are after subtly different kinds of people.

Although both easy and JMC have chosen to adopt cadets at the selection stage, it's probable that other airlines may decide to commit to an individual part-way through training. This may be partly because the airline may wish to have more information about an individual's progress, and partly because an airline's manpower requirements may only be finalised weeks before they need those people in service. An airline must select cadets before advanced training commences, as the type ratings are not generic and are flown with that airline’s SOPs (and, obviously, on the appropriate type).

In terms of numbers, JMC and easy may, if they wish, pick up more than the 4 and 24 rcadets espectively from the first 12 months’ 72 by committing to extra cadets during training. CTC McAlpine anticipate having airline places for all 72 by the end of intermediate training; in fact they’re deliberately aiming low to avoid a hold pool at that stage until the market's demand becomes more clear.

If someone has applied to an airline and not been selected, they can apply again for another airline (or direct to CTC McAlpine). However, there are no plans at the moment to allow second applications after any given period. Therefore, if someone has failed one of the first 4 stages of selection, there will not be a second opportunity via an application to another airline in the scheme. In other words, apply for the lot unless you really don’t want to work for a particular airline!

[Andy_R]

Scroggs

You mentioned earlier on in this thread that McAlpine may consider applications from older candidates, but from there website and their FAQ's I cant see that they will consider anyone over the age of 26.

You couldn't clarify that point could you?

No joy from e-mailing them either.

[evil_mike]

Hello all,

Has anyone been able to find out when the course start dates are???

Maybe i have missed it somewhere......:confused:

Cheers

[carb]

I can't believe you guys are all just accepting the age limit without question!

Sure, older people are generally more difficult to train, but we all age at different rates and have different aptitudes, motivations and interests. This notion from CTC/EasyJet that if you were born on 13th December 1976 you are trainable, but if you entered this world on the 12th December 1976 then, sorry, you must be untrainable, is utterly bizarre -- (an airline with an orange culture wanting to make the world black and white!) -- and draconian.

Well, this is all utter nonsense -- appropriate aptitude testing is the common sense way to weed out those who are a training risk, or, the cheapest way is to simply state "Applicants much older than 26 are extremely unlikely to meet our demanding criteria" on the adverts and put most applications from candidates in their late 20s onwards straight into the bin unless something stands out as being exceptional or unusual and worthy of consideration.

I think the age 26 rule is a mistake, it is arbitrary and discriminatory, and I hope CTC or their airline customers can be persauded to be sensible about it. Failing that, people should take note of it and consider what sort of employer you'll find yourself with a few years down the line... the words insensitive, arrogant, harsh and bureaucratic would spring to mind.

On the 'if you snooze you lose' point, I do agree that individuals are responsible for planning out their life - but there have been few sponsorship opportunities recently, and anyhow there is much merit in spending a bit of time grooming oneself; getting a proper higher education, doing some public service, travelling and growing up and so on. This can easily take you to a little over 26.

The bottom line is that some people in their mid-late twenties or older may be the finest aviators and leading managers in the industry that we never had, and I think that is a unnecessary shame. Airlines don't owe anyone a living - but they owe it to themselves to consider everyone justly and on merit.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There is nearly always an age limit both upper and lower on these sponsorship schemes. Having an arbitary line somewhere can always be seen as unfair. The RAF/RN/AAC do it, all British airlines do it and as far as I can recall all overseas airlines have done it as well.

Its just a fact of life I am afraid. Mind you 28 would seem a fairer age to me but, then, I know nothing.

WWW

[Artificial Horizon]

On the fact of age with sponsorships, it simply comes down to one simple thing, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Sure it is unfair if you are 27 and there fore miss out on this opportunity, what age limit would you put on it then? Would you say that people who are 55 years old should be able to apply because they can complete the 5 year bond period before being retired. If this is the case then what about people who are 56? Why should they miss out.

O.K. this example is a little extreme but it does demonstrate the point. This age limit would be worked on a lot of factors. The airline will have all sorts of advice from all sorts of people as to the best age range for all sorts of factors. 26 is the limit that they have decided and as a limit is has to be fixed and not flexible. Otherwise where do you stop. Just because you are over the limit doesn't mean you won't make a great pilot or return the investment in your training to the employer it just means you are not what this specific employer wants as a sponsored cadet!

Lots of people are discounted from schemes like this for lots of different reasons, sure it sucks but what you will have to do is get on with the training your self and keep your ear to the ground as different sponsorships call for different things, it may be that you qualify for one in the future, if so great.:)

[carb]

WWW - well I know it's nothing new, or unique, but this is the first one that has affected me -- and the facts of life are there to be challenged! Not that I consider an age cutoff to be a 'fact of life' - it's just a lousy decision by a committee or manager behind some desk someplace - I know how these things happen, and I know that if you make enough noise then they give in.

Artificial Horizon - true that there are other routes open to us, but there really doesn't need to be a strict line in the sand as far as upper age goes. A fuzzy line, maybe, but as I intimated, they simply need to use some common sense rather than a guilatine. Accept older applicants but instantly reject most of them. Have a preference for younger applicants, but consider each case on it's merits. Even if they really do want to specify "you must be under 26" there should still be no logical reason to enforce that right down to the very day.

[tonyblair]

Just a thought carb, but do you think these 72 places will

a) be undersubscribed or

b) oversubscribed?

If it is a), then you are right and they are missing out on some untapped talent. However, if it is b), then presumably they face the potential of having to discriminate between too many candidates to select the final 72. Setting a narrow age band is one way of reducing the number of applicants to a manageable size. Another is closing the door when you have the number you require; they obviously intend to do that as well: http://www.ctc-mcalpine.com/application.htm

Tough if you miss out, and we all feel for you. Gives you more chance in the JMC competition though. ;)

[5th Pod]

Amaizing to see the overwhelming response in favour of the sponsorship/cadeship.
Those in favour should stop and think for a minute what this will have on the future if everybody is keen to pay for their type ratings labeled 'sponsorship'.
This only helps the balance sheet of the companies and drives
working conditions on the rest into the ground.
Compare the salaries over the years for pilots and maybe you can conclude that they are not as they used to be.
It was unheard of until Ryanair decided to make extra income and now everybody is following.
I thought the scheme was approximatelly £6000 some time ago, and if successful you were placed on a 6 month probation with a participating airline. Why the £23.000 all of a sudden for somebody that already has 1500 hrs.
READ THE SMALL PRINT.(legal prostitution)
Good luck to everyone.

[carb]

TB, it's all very well thinking up excuses, but to turn a flood into a more managable stream - not that it matters when they will be charging for the aptitude testing so can just hire some more staff - there are loads more innovative blocking criteria that would work and also make some more actual sense. Limiting the time window for applications is fair enough (though, it won't be if they don't give a few days' notice of the deadline and just suddenly close it down when inevitably some people will be in the middle of applying); requiring some minimum qualifications is reasonable; specifying the ideal age range they are looking for is also entirely proper. But inventing some kind of date-of-birth apartheit is getting a bit carried away. I know that in final selection, with so many candidates who are well up to standard to choose from, it becomes a bit of a lottery and probably actually unspeakable unfair, but you at least have had a chance.

Go with your instincts - if a strict age 26 rules seems questionable, then it is questionable, and merits sorting out. I remember saving a campus library by explaining to the library director the campaign I'd run; he went white and the idea was never heard of again. If senior CTC and EasyJet managers get a few strongly worded complaints from 26-28 year olds in their mailboxes, then honestly, just count to ten until they decide that actually, they'd rather have a slightly larger flood of applications and consider people marginally older than 25yrs 11mths 30days, than endure a flood of ill-will from disgruntled wannabes. They will discretely make it so for the sake of a quiet life. Roll-over for them now and down the line you'll be seeing your pay & conditions getting curtailed next, I guarantee it.

Anyway, enough ranting from me, I'll try to apply, and if not, more fool them in my opinion, but for me there are at least some other routes open...

[BronzeAge]

5th Pod,

I was under the impression that the 23K TR course was for 500 - 1500hr guys. All the same I'm totally against it!!

Picture this.....easyJet roadshow at EGNX, speaking to an EZY Training Capt....quote "paying for interviews and type ratings, thats not what were about.", at the time I nodded with satisfaction. easyjet were the LCC that I would choose, the investment towards training that the company makes is surely a reflection of how they feel towards their pilots.

Looking back...what a load of B*@%$$^^.

What's next people? Pay for own recurrent training? LPC/OPC....how much are those nowdays....mmmmm....bargain

Not happy:mad:

[tonyblair]

5th Pod, you've confused me. I think you have all their schemes mixed up, but I might be wrong:

- the 1500hrs + is direct entry
- 500 to 1500 hrs is the sponsored type rating
- 200 to 500 hrs is the CTC ATP Scheme where you contribute £6,000 but are sponsored for the rest, but delay employment for 6 months
- 0+ hrs is the sponsored cadet scheme

I'm pretty much out of my depth here, but it seems here to be generally accepted that if the company sponsor your ab-initio training and type rating then its reasonable to expect to enter the airline both bonded and on a lower salary than, say, a direct entrant. We’ve established that is no different than the BA/British Midland etc sponsorship schemes of the past.

So why is it outrageous for a low-experience person (<1500 hours so probably little or no airline experience) who's type rating is sponsored by the airline to enter bonded and on a lower salary than a more experienced direct entrant? Is it not exactly the same principal? The bonding is less (reflecting lower training costs?) and the salary greater than the cadet entrant's - seems fair enough. But why should someone who has only a few hundred hours expect the same treatment as a much more experienced person joining with 1000s of hours?

There is an alternative; work as a turbo-prop airline pilot on a much lower salary until you have the experience to get a direct entry contract. There are 1000s of pages on here telling people like me that is the normal route. Then along comes easyJet, lowers their minimum requirements from 1500 hrs to 500 hrs and provides an opportunity to people who would otherwise not be eligible to join them at that experience level and gets flamed on PPRuNe for their trouble.

Please don't flame me, I just want to understand what is winding everyone up so much, and at the moment I am honestly missing the point.

[scroggs]

carb

you may believe you have a future in Parliament, but you have a great deal to learn, son. EasyJet require 24 (that's twenty four) cadets on this scheme next year. JMC require 4 (that's four). CTC McAlpine reckon they can justify training a further 44 (that's forty four) cadets for adoption by airlines next year. At a conservative estimate, there are somewhere around 500 to 1000 Wannabes active, or at least lurking, on this forum. Inevitably, there are some arbitrary criteria used to discriminate between those who might succeed (on this scheme, at least) and those who won't.

You might feel it's unjustified, but tough. You're also too old to be a Boy Scout, too old to join the RAF as a pilot, too old go to university as anything other than a mature student, too old to worry about being 18 etc. etc. Mate, opportunities exist for those who fit the criteria. In this case, you don't. That doesn't mean you can't be a pilot, it just means you don't qualify for this scheme, along with many hundreds of other Wannabes.

Would you suggest that commercial companies should only offer an employment scheme if all those who want the job can have it, irrelevant of their suitability??

[BronzeAge]

Tonyblair,

Who do you really think that easyJet will now employ? The guy with 1000hrs who will quite happily pay for his own type rating, or your 2000hrs guy who they employ and train the conventional/more expensive way?

easy have already stated on the web that they have the experience in house to promote right to left this year.

Thats me counted out.........



:rolleyes:

[Decision Maker]

It never ceases to amaze me how some people will knock any new ideas. Higher Quality training in modern aircraft. More Hours. No upfront costs. More emphasis on CRM and Instrument flying. The ability for those people to apply for whom a flying job would be a dream come true but had no way of affording it previously. It's not surprising that there is an age limit on it. It is there to stop the old moaners applying!
If it's right for you, go for it. If it's not, don't stop the others from getting to where you are today.

[carb]

scroggs, no, I mostly just don't believe that this particular line-in-the-sand, 26 years (that is twenty six), is being drawn in the right place. 27-28 wouldn't bother me - for now anyway!

People who say "tough" often have had everything in life on a silver plate, the perspective is very different when you're the one getting screwed at the first hurdle or indeed trying to explain 'tough' to your 26-year old son or daughter. My high school guidance teacher used to boast about a former 6ft 6' pupil who got accepted into the RAF, to fly Hercules with a modified seat to accomodate him. If arbitrary criteria are up for negotiation even with the RAF, it shows there's always ways and means, as well there should be.

[Engee73]

guys if you could just do a little thinking here;

EasyJet need sonething like 12 pilots per month from March nextt year growing by 25% per year. Work it out, they need cadets (24 leaves 120 more per year), direct entry with experience, Type rated (haven't been many of these about for a while), and the self sponsored type rating scheme people. they will not just recruit friom any area.

If you are too old just get on with it and do what the rest of us have done, if you can't afford it get another job or do something else. There is always going to be something in the way of your career, just deal with it and move on.

Might sound a little brutal but get used to it the industry is very competitive.

Good luck to those who apply, good luck to those who chose not to accept the deal and good luck to those who need to take another route.

[scroggs]

carb

There is a significant difference: the RAF needs somewhere around 150 pilots into training each year, easyJet require 24 (in the cadet scheme)!

With the number of potential applicants for these 24 places, it's inevitable that arbitrary methods will be used to whittle down the numbers before CTC McAlpine's staff get buried under the weight of what will undoubtedly be hundreds of applications. The RAF limits applicants to under 24 - and at entry to training, not at application. It has occasionally raised this limit, but only when it felt it wasn't getting enough applicants within the original limitations. It also found that taking older applicants reduced the success rate through training significantly.

Don't forget also that easyJet are taking pilots through direct entry and the sponsored type rating scheme. There are opportunities for pilots at most stages of achievement and age.

Perhaps you'd like to give me more detail on your Hercules pilot story. I was on the aeroplane from 1980 until 1998, and I remember no-one having the aeroplane modified for their exclusive benefit! In fact, there were many pilots on the aircraft of equal or greater stature - who managed quite well on the standard equipment. Can you really expect the RAF to modify 120 pilots' seats (60 ac x 2 pilots) for one bloke? Try another one!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

800 qualified applications are expected. For 24 places.

It must be galling to find yourself on the wrong side of an age limit at 27. Just as galling at 28, 29, 30 or 55 I imagine. If a line has to be drawn then 26 is just as good a place as 25, 24, 27 or 28 really.

BA had 28 when I applied. Given that was the limit at the start of training the effective date was actuall 27 and a few months given the speed of their selection process at the time.

WWW

[carb]

WWW, yeah, but earlier in the thread you believed that 27 or 28 was more reasonable... and personally I'm on the wrong side at just 26 and a few weeks... which -- going back to my original simple point that I don't really think needed to be challenged so much -- is not so old that people have necessarily completed their education. That is why it is a questionable cut-off, and, since it is arbitrary, it's also questionable for it to be strictly applied down to the last day.

scroggs, yes I know there are other routes and we can all get there by one means or another. I don't want to keep going around in circles re strict cadet age limits, but, I would say multiple arbitrary criteria being used to give a score to initial applications, is a fair system, because that method gives an applicant's other virtues a chance to shine.

I obviously accept that employers can use whatever criteria they want to bring 800 people with grade 'C' A-levels down to the most favoured 24, but you can't be seriously asserting, as this isn't Cuba or Iraq, that those of us marginally outwith some initial arbitrary criteria have to unquestionably accept their strict imposition, or that those in charge aren't able to subtly or 'arbitrarily' adjust or relax them. I'll sure be keeping an eye out for any whining in future from the defenders of these tough regimes regarding their mandatory retirement ages or anything else!

Re: the Hercules -- well, was just telling it as I heard it! Maybe the seats didn't need actually modified, a likely exaggeration, but the thrust of the matter was that someone was too tall to even apply, but because he wanted specifically to fly transport aircraft, which had room for larger pilots, and was such a good egg otherwise, that they waived some arbitrary height restrictions in force at the time. I think he studied law at uni and went on to fly for Britannia if that helps you think of who it could be... I don't know a name...

[scroggs]

carb

I think you are just going to have to live with it and cast your net elsewhere. Cuba or not, I doubt that these criteria will be changed one way or the other without at least a year's experience of the scheme. And my bet would be that, if any change is contemplated, it would be to reduce the age limit, not increase it, for the same reasons that the RAF use a 24 age limit.

[Jimbo-in-debt]

Just to throw something a bit different into this debate:

Suppose you're successful with your application to the easyJet scheme, you've deposited your bond, you're out in NZ with the ATPL going nicely, and easyJet (or CTC) go bust. Then what?

I realise it's extremely unlikely, and probably much less likely to happen to easyJet than a whole host of other airlines, but it's not impossible. And, as I learnt from an off-the-record conversation with one of easyJet's cabin crew recently, if (yes, IF - not when) they did go bust, then it would happen very, very quickly.

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this forum re easyJet's scheme - it's bl***y invaluable getting the wheat separated from the chaff by 'people in the know'.....

Jimbo

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well thats just a risk you have to live with. I'd be looking pretty miserable myself in the scenario you outline. But that hasn't stopped me getting a telephone number mortgage on the assumption Ezy aren't going bust...

You *might* be able to take out loan insurance on the whole thing. Its a financial instrumner already in existence but I have no idea whether anyone would cover this particular arrangement. I wouldn't bother paying for it myself but if you won't be able to sleep at night then perhaps you should talk to an IFA...

Good luck,

WWW

[Kefuddle_UK]

If you read Clive Hughs' book, every second page has in BIG BOLD letters.

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT!

Now, with any course you have to pay something up front, but I guess he means no more than a module/test at a time. All up front is not something I would be very comfortable with (i.e. I would not do it for all the tea in China).

One question though. Will your bond money with Easy be ESCROW'd? If so then probably not a problem.

[LBM]

Guys, I emailed an application form to Easyjet a couple of months ago, got the standard reply back saying my application had been screened but my current level of experience (1350) hrs didn't meet the requirements.

Have any of you guys who were in the same position been re-contacted by Easyjet since the type rating sponsorship scheme.

I believe my current level of experience now meets EJs requirements and I am interested in the type rating scheme but have heard nothing from them.

[Airbus.De]

Scroggs

Apologies for me being so lazy it wasn't that I couldn't be botherd it was that I had no time to read through some of the childish, pathetic back and to from some people who have a BEE in there bonnet over age limits. I was also on my dinner hour.

Any way had time to look on the web sites I belive its two trips home from NZ and the training will be done in Aukland and southampton in the UK.

My other questions I couldn't find an answere as i suppose there is no answere so some advice would be grateful.

Cheers.

Also line training for six months do you think you can select your local area (liverpool) if not will you be supported with accomadation then.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Those pilots joining Directly be careful of the terms and conditions when joining.
The company is trying to change our deal at the moment so read the small print CAREFULLY.:cool:

[tonyblair]

Kefuddle

Look carefully at the CTC-McAlpine website. You'll find that the bond is drawn down at 14 x 5 week intervals. Now I've been touting around the flights schools, and most of them ask for advance payment, which seems a little unreasonable to me. This seems much more reasonable from that point of view.

Jimbo

If your employer went bust, presumably as a type rated and experienced pilot you'd be first in line for whoever was expanding to take up the slack? As far as I can see, the beauty of this sponsorship arrangement is if your sponsor went bust during training, you'd just be back in CTC-McAlpine's pot. Sounds pretty safe to me.

[5th Pod]

Sponsorship-you pay for it and define it as a sponsorship.
If one is paying for a type why the reduced salary, why the bond.
Maybe the working conditins are not as great and they fear that after 12 months you could go to Dragonair and start on £100K(NO BULL)A friend of mine is working for them.
They pay you back from your own money,hence the reduced salary.
If they put up the cost, by all means agree to all the terms and conditions.
I applied to them as well 6 months ago, still no answer1500hrsTT.
So why not contact the guys in the 500-1500 bracket, i am sure there would be lots in their database, too hard maybe let a 3rd party worry about the selection.
It just does not add up. Think carefully guys.

[scroggs]

Airbus de

I think it's very unlikely that you will be offered a choice of which base you carry out your line training from. I would imagine that all line training would be carried out from Luton, and that you would get a choice of base thereafter. Perhaps someone from easyJet could answer that, or you could e-mail CTC McAlpine with your question.

5th Pod

Congratulations! That was one of the most illiterate posts I've ever read. Just out of the pub, were you!? And why the easyMoney advert?

[Engee73]

Generally line training is carried out at your home base but it would depend on availability of training captains so it would be poosible that you spend a few nights in a hotel. There are plenty of trainers at LPL so it is unlikely you would go anywhere else. I doubt easyJet would expect you be be based temporarily for line training at your own expense.

5th Pod

Perhaps you'd better dry out a bit prior to your application

:rolleyes:

[Turtledove]

I have been following this thread with great interest, just couldn't resist replying to Luke Skytoddler's earlier comments about my beloved country. "Once Were Warriors" was just a movie , it would be like me watching Eastenders and saying good grief lets not go to England if that's what its like. Hey Auckland is one of the best city's in the world.

I have been at Ardmore Airfield for a few years now, if you can't handle flying there, then you should rethink your dreams of being an international pilot.

All the best to you guys that apply and maybe we will see you down under sometime.

[FunnyOnion]

Hello

What happened to all those people who just wanted to fly for the sheer fun of it!!!! (Its all Money Money Money)

In this day and age you can no longer pick and choose your 'ideal' sponsorship with the perfect ending of fully funded, all expenses paid and a 'nice' pay packet every month.

I will agree that there are more cowboys than there are Indians out there and you really do have to check the small-print on the back of their shoes to make sure you won't be skinned alive with penalties, but has it really come down to "I want to fly but by god your going to have to pay me well before i get out of bed"!!!

I am still weighing up the options of going it alone or making a break for the RHS on a 'spnsorship of some sort', but im willing to give up lifes little luxuries for a while in the hope my office will be a little higher up than presently and doing the job that IVE ALWAYS WANTED TO DO.

I do see the arguments on both sides and personal commitments can make a huge difference as to whether you can survive on the type of salary they are quoting, but if i ever get my foot in the door of one of these, il will thank my lucky stars ......, Good Luck to all those intending to try the various ones on offer , and remeber NO ONE WILL EVER GIVE YOU ANYTHING FOR FREE!!!!

[The African Dude]

Onion:

It would be bl**dy fantastic if just a few more people here sounded like you!!!!

Thankyou for bringing reality to cyberspace. :)


Andy

[Kefuddle_UK]

Hey tonyblair,

As far as I can see, the beauty of this sponsorship arrangement is if your sponsor went bust during training, you'd just be back in CTC-McAlpine's pot. Sounds pretty safe to me.

Yup I know where you are comming from. Just thinking that if they consider it a loan then you would wind up as a debtor in such a case. I think I am stretching the argument a bit far here I know :) But until you see the small print :mad: It is one hell of a lot of wonga! :eek:

Cheers,
Kef.

[FunnyOnion]

African Dude,

Thanx for the moral support, sometimes i wonder if i became disillusioned with it all, especially reading some of the threads on this!!, However if you go into any selction proceedure with some of the attitudes i read, its not a good start.

Ive no doubt if i get through far enough to find out the full story, that i will have to read in between the lines not just the black and white but put it this way even if there is a risk involved what am i doing at the moment??

Scrimping and saving like a nutter and trying to get some bank mangager with any sort of intertest in aviation to give me the money, so even if i do go off and do it myself, i see myself in pretty mych the same risk as going for this scholarship .

May the best Woman/Man with the REAL ambition WIN!!!!!!

[EGPFlyer]

So much for the 10:00 start! :D

[Training Risky]

This is rubbish, I had to skive off work for this!:mad:

[AlphaCharlie]

Just finished filling in my application form. Here's hoping!

Good luck everyone.

[Diggler43]

Aye, was a bit slow but managed to get mine stuck in.

Things are going to happen pretty fast, if second phase is next week.

All best to you all

D:D

[152small]

The application tab on the website doesn't appear to have changed.

Those who have got theirs through, which link did you follow as when I click on application it just says it will be on line at 10.00?

Thanks

152small

[Diggler43]

152

try this:

http://www.ctc-mcalpine.com/application.htm

Should work. It takes about 40 mins or so, if you get any probs with the employment section, it may be that you have put in too much info, it happened to me.

Cheers

D:p

[OnTheBug]

Yep, had that problem as well with the Duties part of the employment section. I found to be ok if you limit it to less than 300 characters ish. (Copy and paste into Word and do a character count). Also found that in the references section if you select 'Workplace' as a reference and then save your application and go back to check it, the field reverts to 'Academic' :confused:

Anyway best of luck all :)

[poorstudent22]

I too was wondering if anybody has seen the course dates for the CTC cadet scheme as I want to apply but will not graduate university untill June 2003.

[Squak2002]

Hello All,

hope that everypne managed to apply this morning. Just a bit worried too, I don't finish college til May 2003 and wondering if anyone knew when the start dates are???

Thanks!

Regards,
John

[rsearley]

Hi, I'm involved with the IT side of the application software. Thanks for the feedback folks; its been constructive and we've made some amendments to the software this morning as a result. We also intend emailing some of you a feedback form to help us improve the system.

I see a couple of you were posting here that you couldn't get onto the system this morning; that may be a problem with your browser (we were on line but your browser was showing an out of date page). The cure is to go to the application page of the CTC McAlpine site and refresh the page (press F5).

I cannot help you with comments on the selection process or the scheme - I only deal with the application form. However, if anyone has experienced problems submitting their application, please email us at [email protected].

Please don't reply to me on here - I'll not be able to respond to you directly unless you email us.

Good luck everyone.

[Diggler43]

John

As far as I am aware, the course starts in Feb, 6 cadets are taken on at the start of each month and there are 72 places, so there is a possiblilty you could, if successful, be selected for the course as far down the line as this time next year-thats the way I have heard it, if anyone has heard any different please correct me.

[152small]

Thanks to "Digler" and "onthebug" for the pointer, I managed to get in on another machine.

I think the reason it didn't display was due to the weird and wonderful world of Windows 2000. Despite clearing the cache and tempfiles it still referenced the old page. If this happens I suggest you try and apply on a different machine, as for the life of me couldn't find the file in system.:confused:

Good luck to all.:)

152small

[Kapooley]

72 places! Does that also include the JMC sponsorship, or is that both Easy and JMC sponsorships combined??

[wookiepilot]

Does anyone know when we are supposed to find out about the sucess, or not as the case may be of the initial applications for the E.J sponsorship???

'Cause Saturday seems to be to close to allow a realistic turnaround for another session of q's & a's!!!

Best of luck:D

[carb]

Does anyone know whether they care very much about swimming ability? I notice for cabin crew they always specify that as essential, but, it doesn't say that for pilots. I ticked No to that question because honestly it takes me hours of splashing about to get anywhere. But, if they need that answer to be Yes, I can just go do some swimming practice. There was no third option for "no, but I could improve if you want me to with a week's notice". Is it either a requirement, or something they might use to whittle down the shortlist?

[Kapooley]

I think as long as you can swim your ok. I'm sure CTC will let you use a local pool (for re-training) providing you pay them another 164 quid!!!

[carb]

Hmmm, well it asks specifically if can you swim 50m without flotation aids, it doesn't ask whether you can swim but not quite so far, or whether you can move 50m but taking half an hour. As so often, this is not helpful, I mean, what if one can swim 49m just fine before becoming a submariner :rolleyes: Then again, as you say, maybe it's just so they know whether to forward you the "remedial swimming training for pilots, CAA-approved, £100/hour" brochure or not. ;)

[P T Flea]

When people are talking about the JMC side of things, does that mean Thomas Cook?

Should I have ticked the box to submit my application to Thomas Cook as well? Are they the same terms and conditions?

Cheers.

[carb]

Yes, 'JMC' are becoming 'Thomas Cook'. I would think you'd want to do some research on the airline before applying for a decade-long committment -- they have a special jobs website, which someone posted on here somewhere last week, can't remember it off-hand, sorry!

[Artificial Horizon]

Throughout this topic I have been a critic of this new form of sponsorship. I would like however to wish all of those 'Good Luck' for the selection. It has been a while since I was in the position of appying for sponsorships and I remember it to be a frustrating time.

So as a person from down under, I hope that there will be lots of PPRune Wannabes enjoying the delights of NZ soon.:)

[P T Flea]

So does anyone actually know whether Thomas Cook are offering the same terms and conditions as Easyjet?

Obviously CTC are taking applications for TC at the moment otherwise the option wouldn't have been there to submit an application to TC as well as Easyjet.

I just can't seem to find any information on the web about TC recruiting pilots.

Incidentally I had absolutely no trouble with the online application process. I thought the whole thing is quite well setup. The only minor grumble is that when I saved the application and went back to look at it later before submitting it I couldn't review the qualifications that I had entered, there just wasn't an option for it.

Cheers.

[tonyblair]

on your mouse PTF, as it hovers over the JMC logo floating across the CTC McAlpine website home page. Look here for the thread a couple of days ago titled something like "JMC sponsorship scheme". Do a search on PPRuNe for JMC. If all this fails, forget it; a technology based career is not your calling. :rolleyes:

[EIAK]

Just wondering if anyone had the same issue as I'm having at the moment!! I was filling out the form when an error page came up and it would not let me revert back to the previous page, the only way out was to cancel the error and start again (new application no. given), but the program remembered my details and would not let me continue past page 1, I've tried to get into my original form but as I was not given a password before the form crashed, I can't enter it!! can anyone help?

Thx....AK



PS, Best of luck to all.

[Shamrock111]

I am having the same problem with my application. I filled in the first few pages and when it came to entering a password I choose one and entered it, when I clicked the 'next' button the page came up saying that it could not be displayed so I clicked the back button (only once) and it some how sent me back to the very start so I started filling in the application once again but at the end of the fist page it told me that these details match details already entered, there was an option that you could click on the link and it would send you your number and password so I did. I received an email telling me my number but the password was just blank. Now I can't access my details to finish them. And every time I send them an email I keep getting a delivery failure note.

Can anyone help me?

Thanks

[P T Flea]

Thanks for your help tonyblair. Easy when you know how!

I even feel a little stupid...

Cheers.

[AlphaCharlie]

2 answers to questions asked above:

72 cadets a year - 6 per course per month
24 of the 72 are EZY cadets, 4 are JMC/Thomas Cook cadets and the remaining 44 are CTC cadets.

As for JMC/Thomas Cooks terms and conditions see:
www.thomascookpilots.com

Salaries about the same as EZY, bond still repaid over 7 years, only need to have passed 2 A-levels (3 for EZY) and can be up to 27 (25 for EZY).

[FunnyOnion]

Can someone answer me a question I have - (seeing as i cannot contact CTC for advice!)

The old education requirements - Say I get an email back for further Q&A's and am asked to send copies of exam results, having not really been through a selection process like this - how important do you reckon it is to send them when they request the copies?

With the short-time scale involved, and me living on the other side of the pond it is unlikely i would be able to get home to dig them out in time.

Has anyone been through this, and do you think i can continue on the basis i will get the copies to them ASAP or even bring them to the interview stage?

If you say that i probably won't progress any further untill i get them, ill guess ill have to throw a sickie leg it over.

[SpeedBird22]

FunnyOnion,

At a guess, I think you'll have to try to contact CTC and let them know. In specific circumstances they'll probably allow you more time to get them...but you will need to get them!

Anyone had an email back yet? I'm petrified I gave the wrong email address :)

Seeya,

Birdseed22

[Diggler43]

With the timescales that are currently being issued by CTC and the volume of applicants that I assume will have applied, then I think that they will be quite rigorous with the selection process and the requirements, i.e. no medical cert, no proof of qualifications then in my opinion your application will be put to the side. You could try and call CTC but I imagine that you would be wasting your time.

Is there no way a generous family member could fax you or send you out the required documents by recorded delivery?

Anyway hope it works out

D

[SpeedBird22]

On the subject of the whole medical certificate issue, will a class 2 medical be sufficient?

If it is, then I'm going to have to go through the whole palava of either fishing it out from the bottom of a drawer somewhere or calling the CAA and getting a bloody replacement.

Never easy, is it?

Byesy bye:D

[carb]

You'd think with the exam certificates thing, common sense dictates that catching sight just of your most recent academic certificate would suffice as evidence. Logically, to do a postgraduate degree, you'll have been verified as having a proper first degree, and when you originally matriculated at University as an undergrad, they'll have verified your school record, and to gain A levels of course you'll need to have done the GCSEs. So why insist on seeing them all, up-front?

But, CTC-McAlphine can set whatever hurdles they want... all part of the sport... I'll just have to have a wee think about where on earth I might have 'filed' those old certificates...

Speedbird22 you should have received a receipt immediately upon submission, if you didn't get that then something is presumably wrong, or if you did then obviously they have the correct email address.

[Diggler43]

Speedbird

I intend (if I get that far) to send a copy of my Class 2 and ophthalmic test report, I was done a few years back , but should be ok.

It will also mean that we won't have to fork out the full 400 notes for the class 1.

Cheers

D:D

[Maximum]

Does anyone know whether they care very much about swimming ability? I notice for cabin crew they always specify that as essential, but, it doesn't say that for pilots. I ticked No to that question because honestly it takes me hours of splashing about to get anywhere. But, if they need that answer to be Yes, I can just go do some swimming practice. There was no third option for "no, but I could improve if you want me to with a week's notice". Is it either a requirement, or something they might use to whittle down the shortlist?

carb - you're worrying me. Can I offer a bit of friendly advice? I presume basically your whole life is revolving around getting this sponsorship. If so, then if you believe there is any chance at all that they may reject you at this stage due to the swimming question"I ticked No to that question " for gods sake just tick yes and go and get some practice!! Why shoot yourself in the foot? :rolleyes:

Not suggesting for a moment you should tell porkies on an application form but it would be a good idea to play the game! Basic survival you know? Why would you give them any chance to reject you if you thought this was the case?

I'm genuinely just trying to be helpful as I know how much something like this means to people - so do remember, from the outset this is a tough business - some streetsmarts wouldn't go amiss.

[carb]

Yeah, well, fair enough, guess I'm just too up-front. My form of street-smart is 'no-nonsense', didn't view the form as a "guess the correct answers" test. Maybe I'll go back and adjust that answer. But as there was no warning, maybe they intend just scoring the answers so that if you're alright with most other criteria then it won't mean rejection. Last thing I would want is to get dismissed at the final stage because I still couldn't manage to swim very far and they find that out and worse still that I bluffed about it :eek:

[stevie h]

Has anyone seen or heard when the next selection dates will be after the december ones? Only I'm in a job at the minute which has a "no time off in december" policy unfortunately.
The other consideration is that I'm dangerously close to the magic 26 year cut off and wouldn't want to miss out. Anyone heard of selection dates for early next year?
cheers
H

[jonathang]

just wondering if anyone had the same issue as I'm having at the moment!! I was filling out the form when an error page came up and it would not let me revert back to the previous page, the only way out was to cancel the error and start again (new application no. given), but the program remembered my details and would not let me continue past page 1, I've tried to get into my original form but as I was not given a password before the form crashed, I can't enter it!! can anyone help?

Yes I am having the same problem, The option to have the password sent to my e-mail address sends a blank password. The webserver won't let me submit a new form it seems to base the comparision on Name and Date of Birth.

I have tried to contact CTC via e-mail but no luck. Hate to miss out over a computer Glitch :mad:

[EIAK]

Jonathang,
Send an email to the IT support at CTC McAlpine stating the problem. They will reply to you with your application form no. and a password which will allow you to continue. Below is the response that I got from them.

AK



"Sorry to hear that you have experienced a problem, This appears to have
been caused by people taking longer to complete the first stage of the
form that we first anticipated. We are working on a solution.

I have reset your application so that you can continue from where you
left off, I would suggest that you check all of the fields to ensure
that you have entered all the information correctly"

[EIAK]

Has anyone had a reply from CTC, regarding the second part of stage 1?

[jonnys]

EIAK-No, I'm still waiting for a response about the second stage of phase one. With the selection days for stage 2 being so close, and having to get the medical/opthalmic reports filled out before then, I'm hoping I'll hear something soon!

[scroggs]

I'm a bit concerned that a number of you seem not to be fully aware of the details of what you are applying for, and some others are not exactly helping their chances!

In any job search, you must research the opportunities available to you. In this case, at the very least, I would visit, download and print out every relevant page from CTC-McAlpine's, easyJet's and JMC's (Thomas Cook) websites. I would then spend a couple of days reading all this information to be absolutley sure I understood the requirements, and had all the required information before I go anywhere near an application form. Take your time; this scheme is not going to go away tomorrow. A rushed and poorly filled-out application form will guarantee your failure to progress to the next stage.

If the employer requires so many A-levels, be prepared to prove that you have them - and not with copies of certificates; they are easily forged. If proof of medical fitness is required, don't rely on a Class 2 medical from years ago - go to your GP (an AME would be even better) and get a physical done. Go to an optician and get a full eye examination. 'I was all right in 1996' won't do. Pilots need medicals at least every year; why turn up with information less current? A question about swimming ability suggests that swimming is a required skill, doesn't it? Why disqualify yourself by saying you can't swim? Go and learn! And, by the way, this will almost certainly be tested in your training. Most airlines require their staff to be able to swim (in clothes, usually) to a survival raft at the other end of a 50m swimming pool at some point in their training.

So, do your research, satisfy all the objective requirements, take your time to get things right, don't disqualify yourselves. This is the next ten or twenty years of your life at stake.

Good luck.

[EGPFlyer]

Just got the email......there are 4 dates for the next stage- 7th, 9th, 14th and 21st of Dec, although its ok if you cant make any of them because they will process everyone whos initial application is successful before taking new ones. (i.e. you will probably do test in january )

Theres a page with 4 essay type questions to answer.....very similar to the ones on the old BA application. Your answers to these are assessed before you get confirmed for the next stage down in Hampshire.

[jonathang]

Just had an e-mail from them saying what EGPFlyer said.

Fax or Mail back further questions similar to the British Airway's Trainee Pilot Application Questions.

:)

[Big Bad Dom]

Incidentally, to anyone having trouble with error messages when filling out the online application, I had problems on several attempts. I had been putting 'None' in the 'How many endorsements do you have on your driving licence?' question, but it worked out OK when I put '0' instead. Don't know whether this was the reason or just a coincidence.

[feet dry]

First time posting on this website but I thought I would offer my observations gleaned from a number of disappointments and setbacks as there does seem to be a surfeit of excitable young (and not so young) bucks in this thread.

At 28 I fully accept that I am now too old to ever qualify for some sort of sponsorship scheme. My closest hit was a very nearly with Bristows a few years back (I'll fly anything!!!). Flying is something I have wanted to do since before I can remember, gliding at an early age etc (we all have stories)...

I honestly believe, of the factors involved in being accepted for cadet sponsorship, luck plays a significant role. There are no arbitrary selection filters....all selection criteria are included for different reasons i.e. academic to see if you are cognitively capable of flying, medical tests to see if you are physiologically capable of flying. The fact that age restrictions are used to whittle down the inevitable avalanche of applications is just another example of the selection criteria process.

Bleating about the unfairness of this criteria is analagous to complaining you were unsuccessful because the company felt your personality would not fit into the organisation. Somethings we can change (saving a library or an indigenous people for example) other things we cannot.

The last point I wish to make is this, now I am a bit grown up and after expending all the emotional (and financial) capital in my pursuit of my perceived dream job of flying I have learnt a few things....

#1....firstly you have to be in the right place at the right time

#2....be very careful making financial decisions that could affect the greater portion of your fit and able life

#3....it is just a job and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence

Whilst I am not paid to fly, I still fly!!! I have my licence and still get the buzz of going up, for those on the most recent pages of this thread please do not become too disappointed if things don't work out.

[SpeedBird22]

Just got the email......there are 4 dates for the next stage- 7th, 9th, 14th and 21st of Dec
SEVENTH of December? How the hell do they expect to process anyone's application in the next three days? These guys really don't wait around. Shouldn't complain really though...beats the pants off waiting three months for just an acknowledgment for British Airways.

Feetdry - For what its worth, I agree with you entirely. Good points well made :)

Bye,

BAW22

[carb]

Uh-oh, I didn't get an email yet! Could well have been the swimming thing that sunk me. No rejection either, though, so I guess they're probably holding me in a reserve in case they don't get enough people saying they can swim 50m... still some hope...

Thankfully, either way, my life does not revolve around trying to get sponsorship, would be nice, but I think of it as essentially a lottery, and with the odd disadvantage, ie you miss out on flying turboprops and things... so I'm still happy... onto plan B, er, no, C next...

Good luck to everyone else and as scroggs suggests, certainly prudent to take care getting your medical paperwork fully in order!

[tonyblair]

Quite a few stages to go though!

They are pretty good with information.

Hey Carb, I wouldn't panic; my email arrived after some of the others - I guess they have a lot to get through. :)

Scroggs; good advice on the medical front; they say that they are relaxing the rules for the early applications because of the tight timescale but point out that we could go through the whole thing just to fail the class one medical.

Anyone faxed back their form yet?

[No. 2]

Hi,

I got my acceptance email this afternoon. Initially I thought that prehaps I could work on it tonight and have it faxed off tomorrow, but have decided againsts this. It would be unvise to rush the application especially when the answers require a great deal of thought.

In addition, if you opt for the interviews later in the month it would allow more time to prepare for the next stages.

Are their many others that are going going to send off thier applications tomorrow?

[Shamrock111]

Can someone please help me!
I still can't get through on email to ctc-mcalpine, I can't get into my account because of the password problem that other people have been having.

Did anyone manage to get through by email yet?
Anyone know a different email address?

Thanks
Shamrock111

[rsearley]

Hi, I'm involved with the IT side of the application software.

I cannot help you with comments on the selection process or the scheme - I only deal with the application form. However, if anyone has experienced problems submitting their application, please email us at [email protected]

Please don't reply to me on here - I'll not be able to respond to you directly unless you email us.

Good luck everyone.

[jonathang]

Rsearley,

Just to let you know.

The e-mail address seems to be Invalid,

keeps returning to sender.
Cheers,

JohnnyG

[SpeedBird22]

In addition, if you opt for the interviews later in the month it would allow more time to prepare for the next stages.

I agree entirely. In fact, I think it would be more than helpful to hold back and wait a little while. As Scroggs mentioned, this sponsorship isn't going to go away, and with courses starting every month up to a number of 72 people...it'll take a while.

Get your answers to the questions perfect, and it the mean time you'll be able to learn from what others post about the aptitudes tests, interviews and group exercises.

gasps as he realises he's given away his strategy:D

Fingers crossed.

BAW22

[rossco18_uk]

Hi there,
Just thought I would say - are their any fellow Scots thinking about heading south? If so, I have been looking at train fares over the past couple of days, and due to the fact that the strict deadline for cheap fares has passed, a fare would be ridiculous. Basically to the point, how you planning on getting down there? Don't get me wrong, I am more than willing to walk if I need to, but transport would be good. Any ideas of how you Scots are getting down there? :D

Rossco

P.S. Am I right in thinking from what I have read, that if you cannot make the dates they specify, then they are happy to let you sit the tests around January?

P.P.S. Some great posts on this thread - keep them coming. ;)

[AlphaCharlie]

Ok, I'm probably just being impatient but having submitted my application form on Monday as soon as the system opened, I haven't heard back from them yet (apart from the automatic response email when you submit the form).

I see that others who applied days after me have already heard back. Could it be that they are putting the applications in order of when you can start training (i.e I can't start til June so I will have to wait til after they have got people for Feb, March, April, May before they get round to me)?

As I say I am probably just being impatient, but I am now also paranoid that my form is riddled with computer glitches and that is the problem!!

Jonathang and others who have had a reply, when did you say that you could start training? Are you hoping to get on an early course?

[carb]

rossco18_uk, I travel around the UK a lot, if you get a YP railcard then the flexible return rail fare from Glasgow/Edinburgh is only £65 or so. The only cheaper means would be an overnight bus to London Victoria (then the train, or another delightful bus, to Southampton or Totton).

Or ride-share in a light aircraft as I suggested previously... would need some organising and preperation though...!

edited to correct my spelling of 'Totton'!

[Brycie]

Hey Guys,

Just after reading the most recent posts - alpha you are not alone - I've filled in my form and still haven't heard back and I did it at about 12ish on Monday. I said I could start in Feb - but thats cos I thought thats when the 1st course started plus current commitments and such...

But I'm patiently (well not very!!) waiting to hear back from them with any news, but I'm taking no news as good news for now anyway.

Chris

[Brycie]

After posting the Waiting... post last night I got a call this morning which was swiftly followed by an e-mail to say that I'm on to the next stage.

Poor wee Mary from CTC is in all weekend just to keep going through the hunners of applications.

Well thats me done so far now,

So long

Chris

[SpeedBird22]

Congrats guys, and I'm pleased to say I got an email through this morning. I'm in!

Going to bide my time though...not available until at least June.

First aptitudes were today. Anybody get the forms back quick enough to go?

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[BravoOne]

I applied Monday night, around 22:30 23:00ish. Anyone else
apply around then get a response good or bad?
B1.

[carb]

Well, I applied 1600 Monday and didn't get a decision until Thursday, so if we assume Monday was the scene of a flood of applications, then I wouldn't worry if you haven't been contacted yet. Impressive efficiency, in my opinion, even if some applicants did get a decision even quicker!

Speedbird22 I achieved fax-back by the deadline, after hastily abandoning my lunch to craft out my answers, and again got through alright, but was allocated a later date... oh well!

[BravoOne]

Ye He...Got the call today and an e-mail to confirm.

Getting to work on those questions right now! I'm aiming for the 14th (next Saturday) my only problem will be getting to Southampton from N.Ireland, pending the results of my completed application, and the will of God that is.

Good luck to all who applied.
B1.

[youflyturkey!!]

I'm trying to get my application in now, little late I know but been on shift all week and haven't been able to access the computer, still another 12 hours nearly over tonight and ever so slowly going mad!

First of all the computer keeps rejecting my application when I gt to the final stage of it (referees etc.) so I can't do the full application. I've sent an email to the address listed before so hopefully I can get it sorted. Anyone else had this problem?

What I really wanted to ask is does anyone know if it'll be a problem not being able to start until next May? Have to give at about 6 months notice at work so I can't realistically make it any sooner.

Good luck everyone...and here's hoping my f*&$%&g form makes it in eventually!

[AlphaCharlie]

Turns out I was just being impatient and paranoid! (Two things which I only ever experience when applying for jobs!!) Having been away over the weekend I turned on my email today to find a reply from ctc asking me to complete the essay questions!!

YouFlyTurkey

I can't start until mid-June 2003 and it doesn't seem to be a problem as I got a positive response. The courses run every month with 6 people.

[Diggler43]

Anyone else from Central Scotland going down for the assessment on Saturday?

I was intending to fly down but with pending strikes by BAA ground crew, things are not looking good.

back up option was to get a hire car, if anyone is in the same situation as myself and wants a car share or has a better plan then let me know.

Cheers

D

[scroggs]

Firstly, congratulations to those who've succeeded in the first stage of what will be a very long and difficult process! I hope you all continue to do well.

Secondly, to those who haven't heard yet, don't panic! As CTC-McAlpine need to fill courses that start soon, they will inevitably prioritise those who are available for the early courses. As Alpha Charlie has discovered, those who aren't available till later next year may currently wait a little longer for a reply. As the process settles down, and all involved get used to the procedures required, I'm sure that response times will improve. Right now, as you can imagine, they are inundated with applications! Just sifting through those that theoretically qualify and can make the early course dates is going to test them fully.

I understand from the company that they are intending to settle down to two complete selection procedures each month, all else being equal. As they start to get ahead of the game, they hope to be able to give you plenty of notice of your selection dates and, if successful, a choice of start dates.

A note to those who succeed at each stage: please let your colleagues here know what the procedures involved, how you approached them, and what you felt about things. I don't mean you to tell us what you wrote in your essays, for example, - I would hope that all of our wannabes have the power of individual thought - but just an overview of what to expect for those who follow in your footsteps. Can I suggest a seperate thread for this, as this one is getting a bit unmanageable!

[ChrisEmpey]

A lot of people seem to be getting really excited about getting an e-mail back asking them to fill in essay questions. Everyone who meets the criteria will be getting a positive reply. Don't get your hopes up, over 800 people are expected to apply for the 24 easy places. The odds arent too good therefore! £160 is a lot to put down the drain especially when your a student, but what can you do, these companies have our hands tied on this one.

[MikeThe1st]

Has anyone done stage 3? whats the vibe?

MD

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

dunno if he's on here but just like to voice my congratulations to my mate Ed, on passing the last stage sim test/check, and being offered a place, pending class 1, on the feb course

well done mate!

:) :)