Which training aircraft?

[4DME]

Hi ppruners!

I'm faced with an option of four training aircraft to complete a PPL in California, and haven't enough experience to make an intelligent selection.

The price difference is negligible and so is not an issue.

The options are:

Cessna 152
Cessna 172
Piper Warrior
Diamond Katana

Any comments would be much appreciated, and i would particularly welcome information on the Katana.

Cheers!

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"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."

[FYWH]

Go for the cheapest, this will become apparent in the long run, save your money for your next upgrade, like, which twin shall I train on, now there is something to investigate.
Believe me once you have a lot of hours on different type of aircraft under your belt you will say to yourself "why in the dicken's did I spend so much on my training"
This is a question only you can answer once you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of trying to achieve your goal.
Best of luck to you this is one question you need to be happy with yourself


cell city, no radar, another bumpy flight

[This message has been edited by FYWH (edited 19 March 2001).]

[TooHotToFly]

Go for the Warrior.

[Fast Jet Wannabe]

Having flown 3 of them, and flown as a passenger in the fourth (thats the 172) - I also urge you to go for the Warrior.

Have you seen all these aircraft? If you have then I'm suprised you are even considering the Katana! They are nasty, flimsy little machines compared to the likes of a PA-28 or a 172! They also have less ratings.

The C152 is a good old work horse, but very cramped and not much fun. They also suffer from poor visibility.

The C172 is nicer to fly, and feels like a bigger aircraft. But still suffers from the same poor visibility.

The Warrior, although not the best of the PA-28 family, still beats the rest by miles in my opinion. It is sturdy, and handles a lot more like a big aircraft (So I've been told - I've never flown anything bigger!).

When there are only two of you in the aircraft it's nice that you aren't shoulder to shoulder the whole way (like you are in the other 3). When there are 4 of you, you'll notice that it is still a very comfortable and able cruiser.

If the cost does not vary greatly, and you can afford it, certainly pick one of the 4 seaters. Which one you do pick is, IMHO, a matter of personal taste (High wing v's low wing, Cessna v's Piper etc...) but I know for certain that if it was me, it would be the Warrior every time.

Good luck, and let us know your choice!

FJW.

PS: Having completed the majority of my PPL on the Warrior - i.e. a 4 seater, it is a point well worth remembering that if you pair up with a buddy, you will be able to sit in the back for each others flights to act as revision/forward teaching.

I have completed many hours as a passenger in the back of a Warior watching and learning. It is surprising what I have learnt whilst being able to concentrate solely on what is being taught in the front whilst letting someone else actually fly the thing! (You can then make notes, diagrams etc...)

The bottom line is, pick one of the 4 seaters, you'd be mad to go for a 2 seater if you can afford more!

[little red train]

Warrior would be my first choice. 172 the second.

The warrior is a great Aircraft, stable, flatering to land, there are loads back in the UK, (More 152 but IMHO there awfull to fly) My prefrence is also to low wings, nicer views. If you want to take flying further, Arrow is the same family as the Warrior, but wiggly props and wheels. then the Senica for a multi-engine.

The Cessena Range is less alike between Aircraft, however the 172 is very nice to fly, quite heavy and stable.

The Katana is like a Oven in California, with the big bubble canopy and no air-con, very uncomfortable, I've never flown one, but I'm told their very glider like, and there is a bigger transition to other light aircraft types.

If the Choice is their go for the Warrior.

[Lucifer]

I did my PPL in a 152, but if I had my time again, I'd do it in one with the best visibility, since you want your lookout to develop well, and the Katana or the Warrior are the best for this. Personally, out of those two I would go for the cheapest, but to be honest, you'll have fun whatever you fly.

[100LL]

I would go for the Katana, Its not a ” nasty, flimsy little machine" its very strong, its also got a wobbly prop, cruses at 110kts and very nice to fly. The Pa 28’s aren’t bad but the 172’s like driving a bus with flat tyres. Have a go see if you enjoy it!!. I’ve got loads of hours in katana’s and they are very capable little aeroplanes. BTW a local flying school uses them and people tend to go solo quicker in them than anything else.

[TooHotToFly]

I did some hour building in a Katana in Florida and it was unbelievebly hot - spent most of my time in the air riding bareback!

[Speedbird 2946]

4DME,

Hello there.. what a can of worms you have opened here. Well, I trained on the C152, did one hour on C172, converted to PA28 then did conversion course for Katana also. There are mixed opinions about all of these, but the basics are right in this thread!

C152- THE workhorse of pilot training around the world, but yes, cramped if you are tall, large or your instructor is either (or both) of these! Saying that though it handles just fine, it is sturdy but still can do aeros and is probably going to be the cheapest option.

C172- I flew a brand new one in the states, leather seats and all the Gucci kit. NICE! It handled to me quite like a C152 and was nice and roomy, with space for your friends! I definitely prefer low wing aircraft, but not so much that I won't fly high wings! It's just that you get nicer view of the countryside!

PA28-Airlines go for this one, OATS and BAe etc. Cabair train on AA5A/B which are also 4-seat, low wing a/c. PA28 is roomy, a pleasure to fly as it is smooth, and has okay visibility.

Katana- well I find these a pleasure to fly. Vis is excellent and they obviously have a stick, not a yoke. They have long wings, handle lightly but still cruise nice and fast and are fun to fly. Cramped also if you/instructor are tall/large but still nice.

If money REALLY isn't an option (at all) then I'd see if you can get onto the Warrior. But as has been said, it doesn't really matter what aircraft you begin to fly. So long as you enjoy flying you can be taught to fly any aircraft as well as another!

GOOD LUCK!!

SB 2946 :)

[PanicButton]

I aggree with Speedbird 2946!
I've trained in them all and it doesn't matter which one you train in. They all have their pros and cons as Speedbird has already stated. I would try them all along the way, but stick to one during the private training.

I seem to remember the Katana having electrical problems. You had to get it started quikly or the battery would drain. Has that been fixed?

[GJB]

I would go for the C152 - very forgiving and easier to land than the warrior.

Save your money on the PPL - you'll need it later.

[ickle black box]

I saved about £400 by training in the C150, then did a 2 hr check flight, to upgrade to the Warrior. When you've got the PPL, the Warrior is the far better aircraft to build hours in, as it has a far greater range and speed. If I had to re-do my PPl, I'd be happy to do it in the C150 again, although the warrior feels more like 'big real' aircraft. It seems odd, that you say there is a negligable cost difference between the aircraft.

P.S. Don't try steep, slow C150 approaches in a Warrior (unless your aim is to entertain all spectators with your multiple landings (A320 crew at SFD, FL, in my case)).

ickle [edited for typo]


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If God had meant man to fly, He would have given him more money.

[This message has been edited by ickle black box (edited 20 March 2001).]

[hasell]

flown in a C-172 (new addtion to the fleet at my local flying school) as a passenger whilst another student was doing his x-country exercise. It looks impressive enough but I still prefer the Warrior.

[Jim lovell]

I'd go for the warrior. Did my PPL on the PA-28. Handles nicely, quite roomy, 105 kts TAS and quite easy to land!

[HomerSimpson]

It all comes down to cost. However, I would feel that the most stable platform would be the PA-28 Warrior. I have many hours in these things and they are great to fly. I cant give any good points towards the Cessna fleet as I have never flown them, so naturally I'm biased towards the Piper fleet.
The most important decision you should be making, is where I'm going to do my CPL/IR course and what aircraft is that on. The more stable and slower it is, the better. Trust me - when you do it you'll know what I'm mean!

Good Luck

Homer ;)

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Duff, Duff, that Wonderful stuff. Ummmmm Doughnuts

[TAF Oscar]

I agree with IBB: save your money, train in the C150 then upgrade to the Warrior. Save your money for hour building. Of course it they're all the same price (strange!) start off in the Warrior.

I wouldn't learn from scratch in the 172, it's a heavy old tub and not the easiest to land well, the Warrior is much more forgiving.

Good Luck!

TAFO

[The man formerly known as]

Go for the cheapest. When you finish you will want to do more and it all costs

What you did your PPL in makes no difference. It usually takes about 1 hour post ppl to convert to any of the other ac you mention. (In fact I can't tell any marked difference between all of the mentioned aircraft when I fly them)

In california i always try to fly High wings (C152, C172) because the view (down) is better. Also the high wing shelters some of the effect of the sun in the A/c. (They get like ovens out there. )

152's are a bit cramped if you and your intructor are a bit large. On the other hand Cessnas don't have fuel pumps to remember to turn on and 152s have a both setting on the fuel selector so you don't have to change tanks all of the time (little things, none of which override the first line of this post).

Have a damn good time.

[Mister Geezer]

I would say go for the cheapest.

I trained mostly in C152s and occasionally C150s. Once I had got my PPL, then I had the opportunity to make use of the extra capacity that the 172 offered. In my view flying the C172 for training was pointless since I would not be using the 2 seats in the back and it would cost more in the long run!

Enjoy your flying!!!!

MG

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Don't land in a field or the sheep will eat the aircraft.

[willbav8r]

I've only flown the Warrior, so of course my vote is for that.

However, if hour building, the Katana at a dry rate will save shed loads.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it uses a lot less fuel (gph)?

Whatever the choice (Warrior by this thread) have fun!

[Denti]

I did my inital training in a PA28 Archer, so i would say take the Warrior. It's a Piper, but for initial training it's okay.

The C-152 is slow, low-powered, cramped and no fun to fly at all, especially if it's hot.

About the other two types do i know nothing.

For IFR-training i suggest a plane like a Beech Bonanza F33/A36, they're superb for that kind of training, very easy to fly, fast enough for some crosscountry-flying and very reliable. I've flown some with more than 14.000 Hours and they flew still great.

Denti

[100LL]

you are not wrong willbav8r uses 3-4 gal an hour tis a bit warm on a summers day but in the UK thats not a problem

[tincancowboy]

All great aircraft but correct me if I'm wrong....but don't you have to do a spin for the examiner eventually? I don't think that the warrior does that. Maybe better to be comfortable with one of the others.

[Fast Jet Wannabe]

tincancowboy,

When I did my RAF FS in August (C152) the only requirment for a student pilot was to have "spin awareness" - i.e. not to spin the aircraft yourself.

When I came to continue my PPL training last month (PA-28 Warrior), the requirements had changed and spinning is now out of the sylabus (rightly or wrongly but thats another thread :))

As to whether it is possible to spin a Warrior I haven't got a clue, but I'd be interested to be told...

FJW.

_____


Pick the Warrior!

[Speedbird 2946]

Well I have enough of a problem getting a Warrior to do a good Stall never mind a spin. They are nice and stable and kind of mush at the stall speed, nothing quite like a full spin in a cessna or a hairy wingdrop in a katana!! It's correct though that PPL spinning is now over and done with, although I do think one should be demonstrated and you should know what to do if (touch wood) it should ever happen to you!

SB

[Princess PP]

Speedbird 2946 -

Is it true that the Warriors only have one door? (Occupants having to egress through the one opening in an accident / ditching, etc?)

[flyingwelshman]

Yes the Warrior does only have one door. It is on the passanger side.

[Princess PP]

Eeeek! Gulp.

[Jim lovell]

Although not mentioned on this thread another a/c i'd like to recommend for PPL/CPL/IFR training is the TB10 Tobago and the TB20 Trinidad. TB10 is a very stable a/c and has similar handling characteristics to a warrior(only feels heavier)and it's CSU/115 kts TAS. Although the cockpit layout is somewhat different i like it- more roomy and ergonomic for pax and pilot(s) alike!

[Land After]

Flown all of them, except the 152. I enjoyed the Katana and found it very easy to fly. The only drawbacks would be the heat in the US and you and your FIs size.

I'd steer away from the 172/152 for training as the high wings can give viz problems in the circuit. (Yes, good airmanship prevents this being a problem - but why make it harder than necessary when learning?)

[M13]

I would go for the C152,

Its such an easy aircraft to manipulate and despite what previous posts have said it is great fun - especially on a cross-control VERY STEEP approach with a cross wind http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif . Its such a versatile aircraft and easy to learn in - and cheap.

I never found a problem with Vis so don`t let this put you off. The time will come when you can fly something a bit bigger and classier, start at the bottom and work up.

M13 :) :) :)

[Airbus_319]

Having flown the C 172 and Piper Warrior, my preference would be the warrior. In addition to the significantly better visibility afforded by the warrior, it is an extremely 'smooth' aircraft and very rewarding to land. Having said that i thoroughly enjoyed flying the C 172. My advice is to go and sit in both aircraft and find out which one you find most comfortable.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I know it wasn't on the list but IMHO the Tomahawk is hard to beat for the ab initio. They need to be flown properly and so basic handling skills are learned earlier and more throughly. They are roomy and comfortable with 360 degreees vis. We have found that students get to solo quicker in the PA38 than the C152. I think the visibility in the circuit with the low wings helps a lot, because your main refernece feature ie the runway is always visible, as is the aircraft you are following. Round here it is nearly always the Cessnas that do the enormous circuits especially in strong winds because every time they turn they have to use a reference feature on the landscape instead of the runway, and can then drift off into the wide blue yonder.
For the cross countries the Warrior and the Archer are difficult to beat, and in this climate a lot more stable in turbulence than the C172.
Then you can move on to the Arrow, Cherokee Six etc without having to learn a whole new aircraft.
Having said all that I think too much of a big deal is made of the high/low wing argument; a licenced pilot should be able to fly anything the licence allows them to without a fuss, so long as they understand the fuel systems!

[jarjam]

I agree with the others go cheap as theres no point burnung loads of money on a fuel guzzler that will get you there 10 mins earlyer especialy if you are hour building. I know cessnas are a bit crap for vis but it gets bloody hot in a kattana or a warrior so that high wing can be a god send

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jamjar

[low n' slow]

Hey!
I fly the C172 in schooling and I find it a teriffic a/c for this purpose. It's very stable during T/O and landing and if possible, even more stable in straight and level. If it is the standard with fixed undercarriage, you will find it very forgiving if you bring it down a bit too fast! You can drop a cessna from 10 ft and it will survive, try that with a low-wing a/c.
There is as there will be with the warrior, no problem regarding fuel selection as it is a high-winged a/c. This means one less item on the checklist which may be forgotten during longer flights.
And as for VFR navigation, I would consider the view from a cessna a lot better as there are no wings in the way. I have, however, never flown a warrior, but I flew an Arrow yesterday and, compared to the Cessna, I found it annoying to navigate.
Another thing to consider I think is in which state the a/c are, the quality of the maintenance they've recieved etc and if it is an issue, what equippment they have such as GPS, DME and other goodies. Go with the one with which the least amount of problems are likely to occur (my word: the Cessna 172)
regards/lns

[This message has been edited by low n' slow (edited 24 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by low n' slow (edited 24 March 2001).]

[Rusty Cessna]

Some very good points made..make use of it...

Having flown the 152, 172, Katana and Warrior, if money is not a problem, then go with the Warrior. I found that the PA28 was an absolute dream to fly, good solid stability and relatively fast. Good vis with the low wings and nice and roomy.

The 152 is what I have most of my hours on, and I have to say I love it to death, I found that it took no time at all to get used to and its great when you come to do stalls, steep turns, spins etc..etc..Visibility is a bit impaired and it can be a bit cramped hence the 172 might be better...I found that the 172 was also a pleasure to fly. Being about 5 knots faster in all respects (I think) than the 152 its slightly more stable and gives loads more room for the small increase in fuselage dimensions over the 152. Nice handling and it gives a slightly more positive feel when landing, however I find they float more than the 152, however this is just my opinion.

The 152 and 172 are very respectable aircraft and have been the prime means of training, but the Warriors are excellent and are being made use of more than ever, which in my opinion is an excellent thing.

For a PPL level training aircraft I find the Katana quite disappointing. Granted it is great for just pottering around and having a bit of fun, but as said before the Canopy is real hazard to pilot performance, as it is going to make you bake, and hurt your eyes. I find that on the Katana, the trim is awful, you really miss the wheel trim that you find on the Warrior and Cessna range when you step in. It can get very bumpy and I find that sometimes the stick can be hard to manage, its a bit cramped inside a Kat.

The large wings give it loads of lift, and so I found you get shot into the air nice and early, however, on landing it has no problems throwing you back into the air! It is not certified to spin I don't think, and so this is a factor to consider, also it has the worst excuse for a VP prop that I can think of, or maybe this is just my inept ability to use it :) :). However, its a nice little aircraft to have in your logbook after you have done your PPL, quite fun to fly, in light conditions.

So IMHO I would go for the Warrior, then the 172, then the 152, then the Katana. But as I say this is just my view, and others may find it contradictory to them. If you can afford it, go do a half our in each and see which you like best, which is more ergonomic for you, and which you most feel comfortable in.

Most of all enjoy your training,
Rusty

P.S Just to address a few points, no the warrior wont spin, but I know id certainly like to know what its like, the 152 is very hard to make stall, but when it does, it does it a beaut! The 172 will stall a little easier. Im doing what a few others did, learning on the 152, then transfering onto the Warrior. Best flying I ever did though was in a 172 in Barbados!


[This message has been edited by Rusty Cessna (edited 24 March 2001).]

[Mr Cyclone]

I'd try the 172 as it very versatile and also its what I did most of my training on ...
The Piper is a nice plane and good for x-country work as its comfortable to sit in .
Don't know about the katena as have never flown it ,but heard good things about it .
Anyway good luck on your decision ....

[GRpr]

Rusty Cessna and others. Just to clear up a point that is rather important!!

The Warrior will spin. It is not certified for spinning, ie spinning 'prohibited'.

It is a nice stable aircraft; who likes a nice stable spin?!!

Although full spinning is no longer in the UK syllabus for the PPL, it still is in many other countries, such as South Africa. Perhaps it might help if people who post or reply don't assume that everyone on Pprune is from the UK. Please, where appropriate, could posters say which country they are from, or referring to,when dealing with matters such as legislation, flying training etc. Many do, most, unfortunately,do not!

[Jim lovell]

Agreed the warrior will spin- so will any other low wing a/c. In my PPL syllabus i did incipient spins- and left to go longer would have developed into a full spin. This can also be done on the Socata TB-10 Tobago which has similar handling characteristics to the warrior(only has a heavy a/c feel to it).

[little red train]

I remeber watching a programme on sky, where a guy with no aviation experience builds a Europa kit, whilst at the same time, learning to fly. quite a good programme, he it showed a different flying lesson each week. always in the warrior. (4 seats, very handy of cammera man). then the Instructor demonstrates a couple of spins, fully developed, In the warrior. Doh!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I reckon a PA38 Tomahawk is best and I have instructed on may different types of light piston singles.

WWW

[matoxon]

My opinion would probably be the warrior. The new 172's are very well equipped and stable but not as easy to land which can result in a lot of frustration not least some strange looks from your instructor.

['I' in the sky]

I have flown all four aircraft, and instructed on C150, PA28 and Katana DV20/DA20.

If the C152 is really a 152 and not a 150 then this is an adequate training aircraft if you are on a budget. The C172 and PA28 will both make you a better pilot as you do have to fly the aeroplane properly.
The Katana's might be a bit of fun to fly but having done 500+ hours teaching on them I do not think they are a good basic trainer.Mixture control, missing on the Katanas is a basic.Constant speed prop is not needed at this stage of training.Also they are difficult to land and will cause you a lot of frustration at a time when you need to feel a sense of progress.Having said that they are OK to convert to later.Better that way round than learn on one and then have to learn basics again when you convert.If your option is one of the newer Katanas ie 4 seater or continental engine, then I haven't flown one yet so wouldn't like to say.

All IMHO.

Ans PS. Rusty Cessna is right Katanas are cramped inside - big time. Absolutely nowhere to put kneeboards and charts etc when you're not using them.

[This message has been edited by 'I' in the sky (edited 26 March 2001).]