DOJ 12-5 rule

[Lime Rock]

I have not been here for a long time.
Has there been any discussions about the problems for a non US citizen to get an initial rating in the US on an A/C weighing 12 500 lbs or more?

[Speedbird48]

Contact your proposed training provider and they have a process to get you security cleared and on your way. Provided you qualify of course.

Keep it clean side up!

[411A]

LimeRock
From what I understand, there are indeed BIG problems with regard to non-US citizens. At one particular airline that I know about, the delay getting the guys DOJ approved has stretched to two months+, with LOTS of paperwork.
Suspect this will not change all that soon.
A rather sad situation if you ask me.

[mutt]

411A, I know guys who are still waiting after 6 months!!!!


Mutt.

[Squawk7777]

What are details regarding the 12-5 rule? Does it apply to training in general or only if you are getting typed? Is the TSA in charge of it? Their website did say anything about it.

:(

[Midnight Mike]

There is just no getting around the 12,500 pound problem, the only way is for all of the training to take outside of the United States.

[mutt]

MidnightMike,

Do you know what type of impact this is having on training centers such as Long Beach? I understand that the Chinese cancelled their training contract and that the Saudis are quite close of doing the same?

Mutt.

[Midnight Mike]

Mutt

Disaster! We have to turn down the training down if the crews are not 12,500 qualified, boy have we lost some money.

The other problem that we are still having is visas! The Saudi crews, no matter what we do, can not get visas. We just cancelled another class and ALL of these crews were cleared through the Department of Justice for training and were qualified in an aircraft 12,500 pounds, I believe the boys were flying the Airbus, 747 & the 777.

As far as the Chinese, we moved the MD90 simulator over to China, since for the past "2" years only the Chinese have used the simulator. Same problem though with the Chinese and the 12,500 rule, we had to turn the boys down, and even the crews that were qualified they needed about 90 days to get visas.

Not a good year for the training centers.

Midnight Mike

Mutt, my email address is [email protected] if you need more info

[Squawk7777]

A little story ...

called the TSA on Monday. Didn't realize that it was Veteran's Day. Was told that "someone" will return my call.

called the local FSDO on Tuesday. After talking to the second person I get cut off immediately saying "that's a TSA thing".

called the local TSA. Person on the line doesn't know anything about "a 12-5 rule" and says that it is not implemented yet, and that it is actually an FAA thing.

called Flight Safety in NJ. Second person (lady with a very nice voice) tells me, that for the background check you need to present the following details:

*dob
*country of citizenship
*passport number

She added that the background check by the DOJ takes 3-4 DAYS.

That's what I was told ...

7 7 7 7

[Lime Rock]

Hi there 7777,

the odd thing is that there are different stories depending on who you speak to.

According to Flight Safety, Kansas, and Simuflite the law states that you can not get an initial ( initial being the key word) rating above 12 5 in the US- if you are a non US citizen that is.

If you already hold such a rating, it is however no problems and you will get eligable for what is called expedited processing which is an approval to get training in the US.

I have also been in contact with the NBAA who, on http://www.nbaa.org/ops/security/training/ , has several documents that one can download. In the FTCCP folder it states clearly that one can not train in the US (unless the above is taken care of).

I have however been told that there might be a change in this law and that they want it to say that pilots, non US, who already holds a commercial certificate are qualified for this training.

The changing of this law can be followed on the US Office of Management and Budget homepage, http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/index.html, the problem though is that there is no time limit envolved.
A government affairs officer at Flight Safety says that this change might come in two days or two months- so it is hard to say when it comes in effect.

I hope that all my efforts into this proves wrong, meaning that there is no obstacle, but unfortunately I think they hold up.
I can not see why FS would turn down pilots/money when they should be making a profit in what I think is a problem area for them.

I guess I am trying to say that the persons you came in contact with might not understand the situation as it really is.
I have a bunch of lengthy law documents that I have downloaded to find a loophole, but there does not seem to be one.

If I prove to be wrong please let me know, I would love to go over and get a rating.

Best regards, L R

[Squawk7777]

Hmm, interesting.... Let me look into it. BTW the TSA still hasn't called back. What a surprise! :o

[Squawk7777]

I have just heard from a friend of mine, that partly because of the 12-5 rules some fractionals (FJ, CS) are only interviewing candidates that are US citizens. I wonder if that is legal .... :(

[Lime Rock]

I do not know anything about the legal part of it all, but since they have a law prohibiting non US citizens even getting an opportunity to train I guess they can justify that too.

I have heard that the OMB has said for two months that they will put out a final rule to all this "very soon". I guess that the red tape makes "very soon" a definition of interpretation.

Another rumour says that the industry hopes for a change the first week of December- but this is also a rumour, and an aviation rumour at that! :confused:

[Squawk7777]

Lime Rock - there's something strange about all this... As far as I know (and I could be wrong of course) NetJets Europe sends some of their new hires for training to the US. Not sure, if the NetJets Europe fleet is N-registered, etc. but it might be worthwhile finding those "details" out.

Another solution to the problem is to write to the DOJ via certified or registered mail and ask them to give you a security clearance ahead of your "potential" interview date. Just argue that the background check is worth 10 negative points on the interview and that you feel unfairly discriminated. I don't see wht they should not be able to give you a green light ahead of time. THen you have a written "clearance" by the DoJ which you can present on your job interview. As far as I have read and understood the whole bureaucratic process, you should expect an answer within 45 days. In addition, if you demonstrate a good presentation of your previous flying exams - theory and practical - it should aid in speeding up the process. The hijackers that were involved with the Sept 11 attacks were not really standing out for their good grades - as far as I am informed.

Good Luck

7 7 7 7

Edited:

I read the "Interim Final Rule and Proposed Rule" again, and I haven't found where it prohibits foreign nationals who don't qualify for the expedited process to undertake flight training. Read it carefully, it start with "no person may ... conduct training ..., unless ..." So, as far as I understand things right now, you are exposed to a 45 day waiting period...

[Lime Rock]

Hi 7777,

strange indeed! I have written, but yet no reply, to the DOJ and asked them to clarify the matter for me.

Today I am planning to add to my phone bill until I get a good answer to all this.

The thing is that I have the job already, but can not train in order for me to get the AC in my certificate.

The owner of the AC has previously had crews to Flight Safety and really feels that they do a good job in teaching and therefore wants me to go there too.

If everything else fails, I´ll just get the training/rating in the AC itself.

I´ll let you know how things develop so we have an opportunity to give good advice to anyone else in this situation.

Have a great day.

LR

[Lime Rock]

Feels like I am replying to myself here.

Spoke to DOT and they confirmed the fact that I can not train as it is right now. According to them, it sounded like the change MIGHT come this spring.

Well well.

[Johnny 7]

Spring ? In terms of training , this must be hurting an already fragile economy .

Reading the DoJ documents , can anyone clarify the difference between a U.S. Citizen & a National ? This discrimination theory is something that worries me because I'm not convinced that many operators are looking at the detail of the rule hence lean toward the easy option of only interviewing citizens - & there are plenty of them to choose from .

But hey , when in Rome ...

[kabz]

Well, the June 14 proposal is published on the Flight Safety website (only place I could find it) and my reading of it agrees with squawk7777 in that, you can have expedited approval for training if you are already rated ... (i.e. can begin training upon receipt/acknowledgement of notification of basic details to DOJ through email/web page)

but are exposed to a DOJ 45-day background check if it is initial training.

I hope all the confusion gets sorted out by the time I need a KingAir rating ... ;)

[Johnny 7]

But 28 CFR Part 105 actually states that at that time no other individuals than those listed have been specified for security screening - meaning that unless already rated , you are not yet eligible for a background check .

Or have I misinterpreted it ?

[McD]

Kabz -

I checked the FAA.gov website and other sites. It appears that in your case, you should be okay, unless the information below has been made outdated (it comes from the DOJ interim ruling of June of this year). It says specifically:
Legal Permanent Residents of the U.S. are not subject to the requirements ...

So, since you're already a legal permanent resident (i.e. permanent green-card holder) it appears that you are not subject to the same rules that a visiting foreign national is subject to.

I'm still trying to search and find out if this information is still current. However, every publication I've seen so far has this same notation.

If anyone has found more recent information which contradicts what I've said, please post here.

[kabz]

Thanks McD !!!!!!!!!!!

For others, I posted a couple of links :

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/samm/policy_memos/2002/DSCA%2002-26.pdf
(scroll down about 5 pages)

http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march2002/Alien.htm
(FAA newsletter thing)

And also Flight Safety have a copy of the relevant text :
http://www.flightsafety.com/

[Lime Rock]

Johnny 7,

you have got it right. If you do not hold a rating above 12 500 you can not get the initial rating in the US. Initial is still the key word here.

[AYR521]

There is an european TRTO who claims that they can go to the States and dry-lease a flight simulator and use it with their own instructors to provide type rating training for pilots who don' t already hold a 12500 lsb aircraft rating.
Is this possible?

[Tinstaafl]

As I understand it, these 'security' rules apply when training for the issue of an FAA certificate.

If not training for the issue of an FAA certificate then they don't apply (or perhaps don't apply in full?)

If the European school is using the facilities but training their own students for the issue of their own countrie's licence/rating etc then it's OK. They've only hired some equipment that happens to be located in the US.

[Lime Rock]

HI there AYR,

which school is that? I am on the lookout for a type rating of basically any kind ( as long as it is not extremly over priced) so that I can apply for the one I want.

[AYR521]

Hi Lime Rock,
I sent you a private message,but the type rating I was referring to doesn't come cheap...
Regards

[Lime Rock]

And............................they are about to ease up on this ruling so that we all can go and get ourselves the ratings we need for our future careers!!!:D :D :D

[Sheep Guts]

It has Definitely gotten into a mess this ruling. The writing of it and the implementation.

I started a thread on this a a few months back.
One gentlemen form Australia went through all the required checks at the time (last November2002). He was to do an F.A.A. A320 Type Rating check in Florida ( his initail FAA Type, but has heavey exp on other ICAO Licences). He did the paperwork through the training company, they followed it on to the DOJ , 45 days passed, he got a letter stating all OK. So he took leave in Oz, and went to Florida. Halfway through his Training, he was told to stop Training, by the DOJ as they needed to check his details AGAIN . They said they needed another 60 DAYS. Well that put him in a pickle, It would me. He tried to reasoon with even through C.A.S.A. in Australia, even the F.A.A. Testing officer tried to reason with them. But to no avail. So he went home no rating and a big waist of money and time. His only partial saviour was the company refunded his course costs. But all other costs he had to bare.
A very sad story and I bet hes NOT ALONE!!!! There must be others out there.


Now where I am at the moment, I work for very prominent Carribean Carrier. The have many Airbus types and they CANT DO any Training in the states either. They now go to Canada. Even for sim evaluation for First Officer Candidates has to be done in Canada.

I talked to some people in the U.S. on chat. They said it wouldnt effect the training market in the U.S. ,as most of the clients are local. I laughed at them, I said Im not sure on the numbers, but I bet its still a considerable slice. From what Midnight Mike is saying, it has made a condsiderable dent in profits and contracts. Id say millions if not billions to come.

Wake up guys, someone needs to petition congress on this.
It is special congressional powers there using right.

Especially when large Carriers are taking their business elsewhere. I bet GECAT in LHR and Hong Kong are doing a fine trade!

Regards
Sheep

p.s. For someone like me who wants to get a self sponsored type. It nearly impossible:mad: :( :*


ALSO JUST AN EXTRA:
I am an Australian, a foreign national or alien to the UNITED STATES. Hence the reason for the security checks.
I m not complaining about the checks, its just the implementation and organisation which is doing it. They are making considerable errors here.

Oh and by the way:
My country allready has Troops on the ground for another war with IRAQ ( that looks to be not U.N. Approved).
Yes we were there in IRAQ 1991, AGAHNISTAN, EAST TIMOR, SOMALIA,CAMBODIA, SINAI, VEITNAM, KOREA, MALAYA,WW11 (1939-1945)PACIFIC and EUROPEAN Theaters,and WW11(1911-1918) and the Dreaded Boer War as well .
Us Aussies have been everywhere with you guys to (HELL) and back. Give us a break. :* :*

[mutt]

$20 million loss......... Ouch!

DOJ Clears Path For Foreign Pilot Training

U.S. flight schools, banned from training foreign applicants for
nearly 16 months for lack of proper background checks, will be
cleared to resume the training under a rule the Justice Department published yesterday.



In the Aviation and Transportation Security Act passed in November 2001, Congress required that foreign students undergo up to a 45-day background check before training to pilot aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or more. Acknowledging that such a delay could hamper recurrent training, DOJ last winter provided "advance consent" -- and later expedited clearance procedures -- for pilots with a type rating. DOJ, however, refused to clear pilots seeking their first type rating, saying it needed time to establish the background check procedures.


This refusal led to a de facto ban on certain training, costing U.S.
flight schools millions of dollars in revenues and hobbling airlines
that had hired new pilots with plans to train them. One major flight school attributed $20 million in losses to the delay in procedures.


DOJ's rule came one week after Senate aviation subcommittee Chairman Trent Lott (R-Miss.) agreed to look into DOJ's inaction. General Aviation Manufacturers Association President Ed Bolen had appealed for the Senate's help, calling DOJ's delay an "outrage."


Over the past 16 months, DOT was able to create the Transportation Security Administration, which conducted criminal and financial background checks, fingerprinting and drug testing on 44,000 baggage screeners, Bolen said, adding, "Over that same period of time, the DOJ has not been able to conduct a single background check on an alien seeking initial flight training on an aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or more. That is inexcusable."


While the rule was published yesterday, the prohibition on flight
training will not take effect until March 17. Under the rule, DOJ
will continue expedited processing of flight school applicants
seeking recurrent training or additional type ratings. Under the
expedited procedures, flight schools will notify DOJ of their plans
to train qualified foreign applicants and can begin training after
receiving DOJ approval. Most other foreign applicants will have to
follow a two-step process -- first complete a lengthy form providing detailed background information for DOJ review and then, if no red flags are raised, undergo fingerprinting for final review.


Sheep Guts, dont feel too bad, i could point you towards a guy who was brought up in the USA, educated in AZ, did his flight training there. Now has around 12 years of flight experience. As a B777 FO, he is permitted to operate THAT aircraft to the USA and has a multiple entry visit visa.........

However, unlike his younger brother, he never claimed US citizenship, so when it came time for him to head off for his Captains rating on an aircraft that will NEVER operate in the USA, he was refused a training visa.

His younger brother is now enjoying life as a Captain.

Life sucks

Mutt.

[Sheep Guts]

I would say Mutt your friend will be fine if this goes through, as hes allready Typed and has Boeing time.

But for fellas like me who have an F.A.A. ATP and no initial Type over 12,500lbs. Ill be in an Old age home home before it happens, Im now 35 .

Regards
Sheep:yuk:

[togabutton]

Folks, lets hope it gets resolved soon. Here's my abridged story. I held a South African ATP with B737 FO type rating and about 700 hours on B737-200s as well as Beech 1900 type rating with about 600 hours PIC on that machine. Total time is 3300 hours and I hold a masters degree. Before anyone thinks this is a self promotion posting, I am merely stating my qualifications.

I won a green card on the lottery and decided to leave my job on the B737 with a British Airways franchise in South Africa, to come live in the USA. I knew the pilot market was tough, but I was concerned that I may lose my green card because it had been nearly a year since gaining it. I had been offered a position fly a van around Florida and the Bahamas so I at least had a source of income and figured that I would get a job with one of the commuters later.

I did my initial FAA ATP and B737 type rating in Dallas in July 2002 - the background check was over in a matter of days (probably about a week). Irelevant to this thread, but I also did a FSI recurrency course on the caravan in July as well as an ATP flight test on a C172 to get a single engine land rating added to my new ATP. Great, very nice!

I have no problem with US citizens being hired ahead of non-citizens where there is a real glut of qualified US pilots out there. I do however have a problem with being told to my face by certain regional jet commuters that they will not hire me because I am a permanent resident and not a citizen. They tell me that my resume and application have been thrown out because I am not a citizen, but a green card holder. They also use the DOJ 12-5 law as an excuse even after I point out that this law does not apply to me because I am B737 type rated on my FAA ATP. Even after a DOJ operator offers to talk to them they say that it is a grey area? I recently also did some training on a B747-200 sim in Miami and again the DOJ clearance took a few days.

My point is that even after we jump through all the hoops and follow the letter of the law, there is some real blatant discrimination out there! As permanent residents we are here legally, pay tax and make a contribution to this country. If we comply with all their requirements, why should we be denied career advancement and in many cases our livelihood. I thought that this was supposed to be the land of the free and a bastion of justice for ALL?!

Fire away....

[Sheep Guts]

TogaButton,
Im sorry to hear your being discriminated against. I suppose that happens, in any country, it happens in the Carib for me. Atleast you have some Ratings now. If the U.S. doesnt work out, there is still the whole world out there. A Boeing for me would be Ticket to the World.

My problem is that the F.A.A. is recognised in more countries the other licences. But my FAA ATP is useless unless I get a Type Rating over 12,500lbs! I wish I was in your shoes. Sounds nuts but its true.

Regards
Sheep

P.S. Was your training self sponsored?

[Squawk7777]

togabutton,

this happened to me when I applied for Flexjets. Other fractionals do it as well so I was told. I wonder if this is legal what they do. I also understand that companies are preferring US citizens.

Is it legal for a company to turn you down because you're not a US citizen? I know someone in the Labor Department, let's see what I can find out.

[awoolford]

Hi...

I'm a newbie to the forum, but am especially interested in this thread. I am British, currently studying for my ATPL at Oxford. Being "slightly" more mature than the average ATPL student I am looking to boost my marketability by unfreezing my ATPL as quickly as possible. There are one or two US based companies which do "First Officer" schemes on anything including 737-800 and A321. I believe at present the training is actually conducted in Europe. However this is more extravagant than my pocket will stretch to.

What I really want (no I'm not a spice girl!) is to get about 500 hours on a twin exec jet of some description... Challenger, Embraer, Bae 146. I'm not really fussed.

One big problem seems to be this 12,500 limitation in the US. I'm still not clear from the posts whether or not the DOJ are allowing foreign nationals like me without a type rating, to train on aircraft over 12,500 lbs MTOW in US airspace or not.

Can anyone privately recommend somewhere that can provide about 500 hours training on a twin exec jet? (not necessarily US based, but preferrably so from the cost POV if the DOJ are now allowing it.)

Many thanks

Andy

[Squawk7777]

This is getting interesting, please fasten your seatbelts boys and girls ...

Here are some quotes:

It is illegal to discriminate against you because you are a foreigner. However, in court it is your burden to show you were discriminated against because you are non American, and not for someother reason.

And there may be some exceptions, some jobs where an American is required.. However, I would doubt piloting an airplane is one of them.

On the other hand, it depends on your type of VISA as well. Sometimes the employer must give preference to equally qualified American citizens.

7 7 7 7

[411A]

If you are a pilot for a certificated carrier and that carrier is providing charter aircraft services to a US government entity (and in some cases, contractors to the US government), US citizenship CAN be required, depending on the circumstances. It has been thus for quite some time...as in nothing new.

This, in some cases, may indeed apply to fractional operators also....so perhaps you can see WHY some operators require US citenship as a new-hire requirement.
Makes crew scheduling much easier.

[Lime Rock]

Awoolford.

Last week the DOJ lifted the ban on initial ratings, meaning that one can go and get your first type rating in an AC above 12 500 lbs.

You can for example check www.aviationnow.com for the story, the government sites are ( I find) always hard to get useful information from.

Best regards,

Lime Rock

[awoolford]

Thanks for the info Lime Rock.

I've spoken to a couple of FTOs in Florida who have also confirmed it looks like they will soon be able to train me on aircraft >12,500 lbs.

At the moment, I think they're reading the small print to make sure its going to be legal.

Regards,

Andy Woolford

[Squawk7777]

LR - good luck to you mate! :)

here's the story:


DOJ Clears Path For Foreign Pilot Training
By Aviation Daily Staff

U.S. flight schools, banned from training foreign applicants for nearly 16 months for lack of proper background checks, will be cleared to resume the training under a rule the Justice Department published yesterday.

In the Aviation and Transportation Security Act passed in November 2001, Congress required that foreign students undergo up to a 45-day background check before training to pilot aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or more. Acknowledging that such a delay could hamper recurrent training, DOJ last winter provided "advance consent" -- and later expedited clearance procedures -- for pilots with a type rating. DOJ, however, refused to clear pilots seeking their first type rating, saying it needed time to establish the background check procedures.

This refusal led to a de facto ban on certain training, costing U.S. flight schools millions of dollars in revenues and hobbling airlines that had hired new pilots with plans to train them. One major flight school attributed $20 million in losses to the delay in procedures.

DOJ's rule came one week after Senate aviation subcommittee Chairman Trent Lott (R-Miss.) agreed to look into DOJ's inaction. General Aviation Manufacturers Association President Ed Bolen had appealed for the Senate's help, calling DOJ's delay an "outrage."

Over the past 16 months, DOT was able to create the Transportation Security Administration, which conducted criminal and financial background checks, fingerprinting and drug testing on 44,000 baggage screeners, Bolen said, adding, "Over that same period of time, the DOJ has not been able to conduct a single background check on an alien seeking initial flight training on an aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or more. That is inexcusable."

While the rule was published yesterday, the prohibition on flight training will not take effect until March 17. Under the rule, DOJ will continue expedited processing of flight school applicants seeking recurrent training or additional type ratings. Under the expedited procedures, flight schools will notify DOJ of their plans to train qualified foreign applicants and can begin training after receiving DOJ approval. Most other foreign applicants will have to follow a two-step process -- first complete a lengthy form providing detailed background information for DOJ review and then, if no red flags are raised, undergo fingerprinting for final review.

[Sheep Guts]

NEWS FLAsh

Lime Rock the new rule has just been delayed to July. I got an email from a flight school in Florida today advising me of this.

:(


Regards
Sheep

[Squawk7777]

Please tell me that it has not been delayed... I haven't found any news about it on the net? Got any reference?

7 7 7 7

[Sheep Guts]

Squawk7777,
I got an email from Eagle Jet International.

Heres their website. It has no reference to the delay. But the gentlemen said in his email to me, that hed recieved an email from DOJ regarding that the rule was delayed until July now.


www.eaglejet.net

Try emailing them.


Regards
Sheep

Hope this helps.

[Lime Rock]

Sheep Guts!

Received information late last night stating that it is not as bad as it sounds. According to my source it will still be possible to go over to train but there are uncertainties of how everything is going to work.

It goes something like this:

After getting a pre approval you must get your fingerprints taken and then get a second approval. The time that the FTTTF has to issue a second approval can be up to 45 days.
Kind of extending your visit in the US a bit, but I guess the hotel owners aren’t to sad about the entire deal.

This information came from the lawyers of the training institution I am planning to attend.

Lime Rock

[Sheep Guts]

Lime Rock,
45 Days x $50.00USD an night and thats at, a 1 star Motel ,works out to$2250.00 usd. Thats rediculous,in my book!

Havent got the cash for that.

Regards
Sheep:( :( :(

[Lime Rock]

Sheep Guts,

I could not agree with you more. It puts a rather unwelcome dent in the wallet. But they also say that they expect that the second approval will go faster than the 45 days they actually have the right to check.

Best case scenario is 5 days, however: they recommend that one comes to the US 10 days prior to course start as it is right now.

But these are only guidelines, one could actually be waiting 45 days and should therefore plan to have the exess cash somewhere.

I could not fathom the effect the terrorist attack would have on the entire training community, but at least there is an opening for all this which is less costly than it was before.
The 2250 USD are still less expensive than getting a type rating for an AC that you would never fly again just to get the 12-5 rating in your license and through that be eligable for expedited proccesing.

I guess it boils down to what kind of money you have put in to the career as of this point and what you expect to come out of it in the future. I am lined up for a job and have the income waiting for me - therefore it is an option. Otherwise I would not have taken this road.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Best regards,

LR