Piper Arrow conversion

[Rusty Cessna]

Hiya folks,

I'm fortunate enough to be starting a few hours on a Piper Arrow conversion tomorrow.

I popped into the flying school today to read the POH so hopefully I've got most of the pertinant info I need, but I was just wondering if anyone wanted to shed any light on what its going to be like flying with movable wheels and a wobbly prop.

Ive got about 120 hours TT so far mostly on C152s and PA28s, so hopefully it should be much of a change, but I'd still be interested in anyone's tips and advice as to what to watch out for etc.

Many thanks,
Rusty.

[rustle]

"...and advice as to what to watch out for..."

Red(s)/Blue(s)/GREENS

Watch out for them, and don't 'see' something that isn't there ;)

Oh, and have fun :)

[Lowtimer]

I assume that you have fully read up on CS prop operation and are expecting the additional workload: you may already have imagined the circuit procedures in your head. If so, good, and it would be impertinent of me to pre-empt what your instructor will want to say on the differences training itself. You don't say which Arrow you will be flying, nor which fixed-gear PA-28, and there are some significant differences, but I can make a few non-obvious suggestions on the assumption you have previously flown the Warrior and / Archer II/III, and are moving to the taper-wing Arrow III:
- The Arrow III is heavy. It has big tanks, a heavy retracting undercarriage, a heavy CS prop. The wing loading is substantially greater than the Warrior. So if you approach at the same speeds, you are more likely to be on the back of the drag curve, and sink rates near the ground can build up in a way you wouldn't expect from a floaty Warrior / Archer.
- It takes a lot of pull in the round-out, and two-up can run out of elevator, so you may want to experiment with leaving a trickle of power on, especially if slow.
- It has a slightly taller undercarriage and aslightly more nose-down attitude on the ground. So you will contact the groudn slightly earlier than you expected
- It is not a rocket ship, especially in the climb, and your instructor may ask you to select a fairly modest climb power setting e.g. 25" 2500rpm fairly early in proceedings. Be careful not to pull off so much power that you stop going up.

Hope this helps...

[Stan Evil]

If it's a T-tail then there's a few more things:

1. There is very little trim change when selecting flap as the downwash misses the tail.

2. The lack of downwash on the tail makes it slightly easier to land than a Warrior as you don't lose stabilator effectiveness when you throttle-back at the flare.

3. Again, no downwash - no natural buffet for stall warning.

4. Have the trim about 2 cm aft of neutral for the take-off or you'll really have to pull.

If it's a Turbo-Arrow listen very carefully to your instructor's brief on engine handling.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi RC

Hope the Wx is going to play ball!

If you are current and well adjusted to the rest of the PA28 range you will most likely have very few problems.

I found the transition easy and that is exactly what Mr Piper's aim was.

Just take on board the numbers and fly them and you'll be well on your way.

Take time before you even start the engine and sit in the cockpit for say 30-60 mins and get yourself climatised and find the different knobs and switches. That will save you time and money!

If your new mount has significantly different equipment than anything you have flown to date, make sure that the instructor explains what the functions are (again most of that can be done on the ground)

Although your instructor may teach you to fly the machine on square settings for simplicity (and in my opinion there is nothing wrong with that to start off with) the proper cruise settings can usually be found on the reverse of the sunvisor (and always in the POH)

Once you start using the Arrer for what it is intended, longer trips, it pays to have a look.

Your instructor will no doubt explain that the three greens are dimmed when you have the nav lights switched on. Ignorance of this little snippet leads to unnecessary sweating on the part of the PIC!

Main thing is to have fun, and ensure that your gear is down :eek:

FD

PS: If it is an arrer 4 you will notice that the machine will need quite a bit more runway than a 3 or any other PA28. It is for good reasons that they abandoned that concept again.

[Rusty Cessna]

Many thanks for all the help,

Just to confirm the Arrow is an Arrow III and is not a turbo, all my previous experience has been on the bog standard PA-28 Warrior 161 apart from a few hours initial on the 140.

regards,
Rusty.

[IFollowRoads]

Lots of good things already, but one thing stands out to me: agree with your instructor *when* you are going to commence the retraction cycle. Bear in mind it is a single, goes down at something like 700'/min without an engine at best glide, and takes around 10 seconds each way to cycle the gear, so you could argue you won't start before say 300' AGL - which is a lot later than you'll want to when you find out how much better it goes when the gear is tucked up.

Apart from that, if you lready have PA28 experience, you shoudn't find it too difficult: the wobbly prob means forward from the right (ie mixture, revs, throttle) and down from the left (throttle, revs, maybe mixture), or 'rev up, throttle back' depending on your instructors preference

You might find initially approaching the circuit you have to actually slow down, which may not be something you are used to - if you get the speed below Vle before crosswind, you have to choice to drop the gear early and 'speed up' your 'slow down' if you are somewhere busy.

One stage of flap (bear in mind the lower limit speed for flap vs. gear) just about counteracts the trim change you get from dropping the legs (well, at around 105kts in mine it does), which if you've got the speed back early, saves a certain amount of frantic re-trimming.

Have fun!

IFR

[Ace Rimmer]

Not a lot to add, Your instructor may have different ideas but on the Rimmer-mobile (Arrer2) on t/o I use everything fwd till about 1K then 25/25 for the remainder of the climb staying in the circuit it'd be 21/2400. The other thing I 'd recommend is gettting configured early, I aim to be slow enough to have the gear down by the x wind (or in the overhead if joining that way) and flap 1 by late down wind, flap 2 rolling out on base and full rolling out on final.
You'll find your arrivals more comfortable with a dribble of power until the touchdown (the trick is finding out how much that dribble needs to be - too much and you'll use a lot of runway too little and el thudo - but that's part of the fun nez 'pas?)
The other thing you might find is in ground ops the steering is a lot heavier than a Warrior/Archer but you soon get used to that.

In truth, if you've got a lot of time in PA28s you shouldn't find the Arrer a stretch and you'll enjoy its longer legs on XCs

[FlyingForFun]

I converted to the Arrow IV last January (lots of Warrior time and a bit of Cherokee time before, like you).

The retractible gear is pretty simple and obvious. Constant speed prop makes very little difference in the cruise, and it's just a few extra procedures to learn for approach and departure. Really no problem at all.

The biggest problem I had was the downwind leg. There are a few extra checks to do (gear down, set the prop speed, check the gear really is down) and less time to do them because you're going a little bit faster. For the first couple of hours, I was always behind the 'plane on downwind. All it took was practice, practice, practice....

Good luck - seems like you've got a good day for it, too!

FFF
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[Flash0710]

As you good men have said if you are happy with the other tin piper have knocked out this should be a sensible progression for you.

I converted onto a turbo arrow this sept found it fun and quick the only problem i had was after doing a night landing and returning the aircraft the next day you casn imagine my fear when i went to put the gear down i heard three thuds but no lights your right that damn dimmer switch.................:o

In all fairness my c/o was only an hour and we were not planning to land at night but i nearly called a pan for this tiny oversight on my instructors part thank christ i thaught.......

Anyway enjoy yourself its a great machine.

[Jhieminga]

I converted to a PA28R-201 after some 80 odd hours on an Archer III and didn't find it too hard. The first thing that struck me was the lack of urgency on the climbout but I soon got used to that. And perhaps after a -141 or -161 its not that big a difference (I haven't flown them so cannot comment on that).

The CS prop and moving wheels shouldn't be too big an issue. What worked for me is to decide on a set procedure (your instructor will most probably help you out with that) and stick to that!

Have fun!

[Aussie Andy]

Hey everyone,

Have really enjoyed lurking this thread as I've rented an Arrow to use whilst at home in Sydney over the Christmas/New Year break.

I already regularly fly a PA28-236 Dakota, which has a CS prop, so expect the retractable gear will be the only new thing to get to grips with.

I am worried sick that I'll forget the bl**dy gear when I am away with my friends though - thinking about afixing a great big post-it note to the coaming that says "DON'T FORGET THE BL**DY GEAR!" ;)

Question: when do you normally extend the gear? I assume this is done on downwind? The downwind checks I was taught are "Brakes -> Mixture -> Carb Air Hot -> Fuel -> Harness -> Carb Air Cold -> Engine (T's & P's)"Then, after I was converted to the Dak, someone else suggested that I should add Finals checks along the lines of "Reds (mixture fully rich) -> Greens (gear down & locked) -> Blues (prop fully forward/fine)" to which I also add "Clearance".

I will presumably extend my downwind check to include "Brakes -> Undercarriage -> ..." Then again, I'll probably be taught some other downwind checks by whoever converts me onto the Arrow I suppose!?

I fear I might end up of with a cacophony of different checks in my head!!! What does BUMFICH stand for anyway!?

[FlyingForFun]

Hi Andy,

Everyone has a different way of doing this. Here's the way I was taught.

I was taught BUMFICHH for my PPL:

Brakes (parking brake off, pedals feel "normal")
Undercarriage (down)
Mixture (rich)
Fuel (pump on, correct tank, sufficient remaining0
Instruments (green)
Carb heat (on)
Harnesses (secure)
Hatches (secure)

There's an argument which says that learning this for the PPL encourages you to "recite" checks like "Undercarriage" without doing them, causing you to carry on reciting them without actioning them when you move to an aircraft with retractible gear. I never found that, though. I was also taught, with a constant-speed prop, to set the RPM to 2500 on downwind while slowing down to lower the flaps.

Base-leg checks I only use in complex aircraft. I use the American GUMP check:

Gas (pump on, correct tank)
Undercarriage (down)
Mixture (rich)
Prop (full fine)

(If anyone knows of an equivalent mnemonic which doesn't use that horrible American word "gas" for something which isn't a gas, please let me know - FUMP doesn't have the same ring to it!)

Then, on final, one further check for "3 greens".

The chances of forgetting to check the gear 3 times are pretty slim, and I haven't managed to do a gear-up landing yet. But there are two types of pilots - those who have landed gear up, and those who will. At the end of the day, just use whatever checks work best for you. But I'd always check the gear at least twice. I'm sure you won't have any problems.

FFF
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PS - Rusty, how did it go?

[Flyin'Dutch']

Well said FFF

There is a chance that if you always fly fixed gear and use the BUMPFICHH you will 'forget' to do the appropriate thing when you fly something in which you actually need to do something.

I think this is less likely than forgetting something by using a different mnemonic every time you fly something different.

I certainly find it good to use the same thing and just cross it off as a non action when I go along the list.

Final check I use is reds/blues/greens.

Works for me.

FD

[Rusty Cessna]

Cheers for all the input people,

Due to weathering off I havent had a chance to get in the Arrow yet, so hopefully friday will be a better story. I had the breif on the Arrow today and I'm happy that it isn't going to be too difficult, I'll let you know how I get on. With regards to the cabin, is it anymore spacious than the Warrior, or is it much the same?

FFF,

You could always stick with GUMP but change "gas" to "go go juice"! :)

Regards,
Rusty.

[FlyingForFun]

Thanks Rusty - might do that!

As far as I'm aware, the cabin is exactly the same as the Warrior. But I'd been doing long cross-countries (200+ nm) in a Super Cub before that. As far as I was concerned, the space in the Arrow was pure luxury! I could not only keep my chart unfolded, but also have it on the seat next to me. My flight case could be reached without having to turn around. I had somewhere to keep a bottle of water. If I wanted to take me knee-board off during the flight, I could, without having to worry about whether I'd be able to retrieve it again later. Luxury! :D

(But there's nothing like a couple of decent-length flights in something like a Cub to get your cockpit organisation skills up to scratch. I'd imagine open-cockpit would be even more fun!)

FFF
----------------

[Aerobatic Flyer]

I am worried sick that I'll forget the bl**dy gear when I am away with my friends though - thinking about afixing a great big post-it note to the coaming that says "DON'T FORGET THE BL**DY GEAR!"

The Arrow 3 that I used to fly had a cunning device that automatically lowered the gear if it thought you were about to land. It wasn't all that cunning, though, and on a few occasions it put the gear down when it shouldn't have....

[englishal]

If anyone knows of an equivalent mnemonic which doesn't use that horrible American word "gas" for something which isn't a gas, please let me know - FUMP doesn't have the same ring to it!)
How about PUMP:-
P=Petrol...well its almost the same :D

I always chant "Final's clear check the gear" on turning base to final....probably sound like a complete prat to my passengers, but its less embarrasing than landing gear up ;)

Cheers
EA

[Ace Rimmer]

I couldn't give a t@ss if I sound stupid in front of me pax better that than leaving the the dunlops un dangled. Here's my sequence:

Get slowed down early so I can get the gear down at the point of join (overhead, x wind, base whatever) - good speed control device all that cr@p hanging in the breeze. So say out loud "gear down" look at the lights feel the thumps say out loud "three greens"

Downwind (if there is a downwind) usual checks say it out loud

Finals PUF check
P - Prop: Fully fwd
U - Undercart: down and three greens
F - Flap: Set (full or 2 or what ever)

Another thing if you have pax, why not use the resource? Get them involved in the process and give them the checklist to read out (you'd be surprised how many people really get into this)
Mrs R is into challenge and response even if she does have an eccentric way of pronouncing "magneto" (to rhyme with Cornetto) and nowadays gets huffy if she dosent get to do the checklist bit.

[Aussie Andy]

"magneto" (to rhyme with Cornetto) Made my Day ;)

God I love PPRUNE!

[Low Ratio]

I've just done my conversion onto an Arrow 3 and had no probs having a few hours on Warriors and Cherokees. One thing I was taught was not to put the prop to fine until on final. The reason being it creates less noise so keeps the neighbours happier, and the only reason you go to fine is for the go around anyway.
Just a thought:)

[Rusty Cessna]

Hiya all,

Well I finally got a weather slot today and was able to complete the Arrow Conversion. I knew as soon as I got in it I would love this particular beast, lovely purple felt, storm watch and a moving map amongst other things meant it felt much more like the extra money was justified!

I found that there were no hassles with pre flight actions right up until take off, as its pretty much the same as the warrior, which was good. Take off and both the sound and acceleration certainly showed it was an Arrow and not a Warrior!

Have to say it was a really enjoyable flight, and once I'd got used to the wobbly prop I was able to relax a little, I found the gear no great shakes and the only thing that gave me a bit of hassle was the increased rate of yaw induced by the extra horse.

Cheers for all the info given people, it made things that little bit easier.

Low Ratio,

I too was taught to only fully fine the prop on final, the way I was taught was instead of doing normal CRAP checks, do a Reds, Blues, Greens RAP check, at which point the prop gets fine, is this the normal way of doing thing? I'd be interested to know.

I'm off to smile some more!
Rusty.

[Keef]

Coming in a bit late here - glad you enjoyed it.

Folks have told you all the key bits, and really it's a doddle. Reds Blues Greens is the important one.

I find with ours that the auto gear extend means the wheels won't retract till airspeed gets to about 90 knots, and of course with the wheels down that takes a while. So I always use the "auto extend override" on takeoff - pull up the little red button and push in the pin to hold it up. Once you're up to cruising height and speed, and over land, release it again just in case.

I leave it locked "up" over water - years ago, we lost an Arrer cos the engine went BANG! over the Solent, the gear dropped automatically, and P1 (not me) was a bit too preoccupied to realise why he wasn't getting the glide he should. He splashed down about 50 yards offshore. Wheels up till later, he'd have made it to land.

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks Keef,

Sorry to hear about the splash down. On this particular aircraft the auto gear extend has been removed. The flying school bought the aircraft in this state and I beleive something has been installed to replace it but now can't remember what it is. Needless to say I learnt the emergency drop drills, we pulled the cicuit breaker, pressed the little red button down and hey presto, 3 clunks!

Something I'm also going to have to make a mental note to remember is the effect of panel lights on the gear indicator lights. I'm looking forward to flying it again soon, however will probably do some more circuits before I load some pax and venture off at 130kts!

Cheers,
Rusty.

[no sponsor]

I fly an Arrow III. There are a couple of good simple checks/reminders:

Take-off: after a reasonable climb-out, don't do anything until the gear is sorted: "Postive rate: gear-up" is what I say to myself. The gear only goes up when no runway is left.

Use the gear as a drag flap: To lose significant speed, put the gear down. This is useful on a downwind/approach. 21/25 as the setting with gear down should bring you to about 100kIAS.

Approach and Final: say to yourself: "All the Reds, All the Blues, All the Greens": Physically check the levers are fully forward, and look for the greens. The other useful thing to say when talking to ATC is: "G-XX is final with three greens" and look at the greens. I also do one last chance saloon check at about 200 ft.

Another useful saying: To go faster: "Revv-up": i.e. prop-speed. Slow down: "Throttle back" i.e. manifold pressure.

In a dark cockpit, make sure you are moving the correct lever. I started pulling back the red one on climb-out once, and thinking: that's strange...

I tend to keep power on just before touch-down. There is an art to it however, and it takes some getting used to.

[Rusty Cessna]

No Sponsor,

Thanks for the comments. With regards to the power and pitch changes, I find that "black back", and "blue up" are easier to remember, but they you have described it also seems helpful for remembering the right lever!

I'd be interested to know what procedures people use for leveling off and descending, and the associated speeds they get with the manifold pressure they set. For instance I use 23" and 2300 in the cruise, and I find 20" and 2500 works well in the circuit, what about everyone else?

Regards,
Rusty.