Is Weather Minima flexible?

[Flapping@thirty]

In the last couple of months I have been in the situation where an experienced captain has either busted the approach minimums or suggested we go bellow them during the approach briefing. As a rookie in large jets I have been quite surprised by this. The first time the captain was flying and just ploughed on down, I was very surprised by this and in the few seconds that it took to react the lights appeared and so we landed. The second time the CRM was a bit better as the option was discusssed in the briefing. I wasn't happy about it and after some discussion the captain agreed that if I was not happy I was entitled to object and we would stick to the minima. He put it down to my lack of experience as we where doing a catI app when A/c is catIII rated (the ILS was up to cat II I beleive).

I know that when I have asked this question to other captains they have allways said stick to the minima. That is in public. In the secrecy of the cockpit and facing a diversion they may (and obviously sometimes do) say something different.

So, form the secrecy of your computer, can you tell me. Is there any flexibility at all? Is there any judment call to be made or is it

"One hundred"... "decide" --> "Go around, flaps 15" every time.

D.

[Captain Stable]

Minima are exactly that - MINIMA.

To bust minima is dangerous and illegal.

Next time a captain does that, on landing pull the CVR and FDR CB's, call an engineer to remove them for examination. Captain in question, if having been found to commit the same "error" previously will probably be handed his cards - and good thing too. There are plenty of pilots out there who deserve a chance at a job who would be perfectly safe pilots, and who would fly legally.

There are only two possibilities at DH:- "Decide - lights (at x o'clock)"
"Visual - land" "Decide - no contact"
"Go around"(or whatever your company SOP's dictate as the verbiage)

Do not worry about making yourself unpopular. Which would you rather be - unpopular or dead?

[Trip Switch]

Flapping@thirty

As said, minima are the MINIMUM. No ifs or buts. Within the cockpit environment the minima used are the most restrictive of each crew member, as well as the a/c. If the captain and a/c are Cat III, but you are Cat I, then Cat I are the only minima that can be used. Don't accept anything less. In the course of good CRM it's a tricky one, but stand your ground on the "I REALLY don't feel comfortable with this". Life, licence, job - in that order.

Keep safe

Trip

[FWA NATCA]

Flapping,

I knew a former captain that loved to bust the minimums until one day he touched down in a very wet and muddy corn field a half mile short of the runway. Luckily the airplane was empty, so he and his co pilot walked away, or should I say trudged through deep mud without a scratch.

Mike

[Flat-Spot]

FWA NATCA, I like the story about the FORMER Captain, its a shame he had to learn the hard way though...but this is the reason we have minima and the reason why we don't go below them.
Flapping@thrity, listen to Capt Stable and Trip Switch, they are correct, if your Capt. goes against SOP's pull him/her up on them...I expect my F/O to question me regarding decisions if he/she doesn't agree..isn't that what CRM is all about??

F-S

[BlueEagle]

Flapping@thirty. If the aircraft is equipped and serviceable Catll/lll and the weather is close to Cat1 minima then, provided the airfield is Catll or better and you are qualified Catll/lll, brief and fly the full Catll approach, this way, if the minima are just below Cat1 you can safely and legally continue down to Catll, (or, if you brief it, Catlll), minima.

There is absolutely NO excuse for busting your minima, particularly when there are safe alternatives available to you.

Have you considered sending your experiences to a confidential reporting system in the USA? (do you have one?).

[Fat Boy Sim]

Flapping, Was it the same captain the second time around?. If so you have got the message over. If not, then no matter how junior in the company you must not let the captain get away with it, your licence is on the line as well.

I was once told that being in the RHS one has to be the greatest diplomat in the world. If presented with this this problem at the top of descent it's a nightmare to deal with. Use some of those diplomatic skills to change the guys mind. depending on the captains personality, start gently and work upwards, some guys might react to a Roger Moore style raised eyebrow, others might need the 'are you serious' routine. The good bit about flying in todays climate is you should not have to worry about the company backing you up and all captains are aware of that fact. If they do not, then maybe it is time to move on, because you are seriously cutting down the odds of collecting a good pension.

Twenty odd years ago I flew with one arrogant git who wanted to do the same thing. None of the above worked, but what did was a carefully scripted conversation in my best voice to the CVR microphone.....have to say it worked a treat.

[411A]

Personally, the only possible reason I can imagine wherein a Commander would intentionally descend below published minima would be an emergency: fuel exhaustion, severe electrical failure, fire etc. when it was necessary to get on the ground...now.

[Smokie]

411A .
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Whilst I don't advocate this on a daily basis , when the chips are down and death is the likely alternative, then the limits go out of the window, you walk away from it and if neccessary lose your job, license or both, at least you, the crew, the pax are alive to talk about it later.

I think that an aicraft on fire, serious smoke on the flight deck or cabin, seriously low on fuel through no fault of your own, would do it for me.

A colleague of mine many moons ago, on a transatlantic trip to Europe, found on en route to their destination that the field was fogging out , so were all their alternates. After four approaches at different airfields, the only course of action left was a coupled approach down to 30' rad alt, disconect the A/P, close the thrust levers and pitch up 10 degrees .... and wait for the wheels to touch, which they did.
They ran out of fuel as they taxied off at the RET !

Its not often that fog in Europe gets that bad but it does happen, thankfully on the day in question I had the luxury of delaying my departure untill the next day, they didn't have that luxury.

If nothing else, this topic will be food for thought.

[S76Heavy]

I agree with the previous posts. Unless it's a life and death situation, do not EVER contemplate to bust the limits. They are there for your protection, as well as for the protection of your passengers and bystanders.
And if said captain persits, complain to your management.

[Captain Stable]

As stated, the ONLY exception to busting minima is when the alternative is death.

"The weather is bl00dy horrible and I want to be out of it and we only have fuel for another thirty minutes" is NOT an acceptable reason.

The captain has the option at any time to use higher than published minima. At no time (other than in dire and immediate emergency) does he have the authority to use lower.

Different approach categories don't confuse the issue at all, either. Minima are the highest of the aircraft's, the captain's and your limitations. No argument. Nothing to do with your lack of experience, whether you are more experienced and happier with the aircraft, the particular airfield procedure, anything. If you're not rated for the higher-precision approach, YOU MAY NOT USE IT. The captain should know before even thinking about departing what your qualifications are. Anything else he says or asks is putting pressure on you to break the law and fly dangerously. Don't accept it. If he persists, shop him to anyone - Chief Pilot, Fleet Manager, Flight Safety Officer, CHIRPS, CAA, anyone you feel like.

But don't EVER go along with it.

[Flapping@thirty]

Thanks for the replies guys, please keep posting them. I am pleased that you are all comfirming what I thought. I am intrigued to see if anybody would take one of my skippers views or if anybody has had similar experiences, and how did you deal with it?


In answer to one of the questions they where two different people. On the first occasion I was cought a bit by surprise when my "decide" was met by silence. I then looked up and as I couldn't see the lights I looked at the instruments again and sort of froze. A couple seconds later we saw the lights and we where well displaced to the side of the centerline. I estimated that this took about four seconds which at 750ft/min would be about 50ft bellow minima. When we where taxing in I said that I did not see the lights. I was told that he had, I just didn't know where to look. I am conviced that he handn't as he did not reply to my "decide" until 4 sec later when we both saw them and there was no significant wind, on addition why did we deviate so much from the centreline. In the end it would have been his word against mine though.

The second time I was told that I was been pedantic. I asked "if you where flying with the chief pilot would you be suggesting this?" His reply was "probably". In any case we both agreed to forget he ever said anything so I do not intend to press it further.

This is the beauty of PPRuNe for somebody in my position. Now I am prepared for the next time (although I hope they have been two isolated incidents). I shall still be as diplomatic as I can but I know that I am not being "inexperienced" or "pedantic" but ultimately I will also do the job that I am paid to do.

As far as emergencies I agree with the previous posts. In an emergency I try and land in a highway if needed... not an SOP though.


D.

[BOAC]

F30 - "Thanks for the replies guys, please keep posting them"

There is NO point in asking for more posts here. What more do you want? Those above say it all. That is what 'diversion airields' are for. You will eventually get the wind-up merchant posting here saying 'Yeah - I always go below minima if I have to' and off we will go another pointless thread into the realms of nonsense so treasured by some of the Ppruners. Is that what you are waiting for?

1) Stand your ground.
2) If the ground trembles, talk to someone. We do NOT mean Pprune.

Passengers and crew are your PRIMARY responsibility.

[Wiley]

Thanks for the replies guys, please keep posting them. Having read Flapping@30’s comments on another thread regarding how great it was to drink a can of beer on the flight deck and share a smoke with captain on the flight deck in a no smoking airline AND be allowed onto the flight deck post Sept 11 01… and now see this seemingly innocuous question about captains busting minima from him, I think there’s a very real possibility we’ve got, not a globe-trotting junior FO, but a gutter press journo looking to manufacture a headline or two in Flapping@30.

Can’t you just see the headlines? “Airline Pilots on Professional Pilots’ Website Admit to Flying Below Weather Minima” and something equally inflammatory regarding having a drink on the flight deck had someone been silly enough to respond to that thread.

My suspicions were pricked immediately when I saw that he said he’s a professional aviator (“showed the FA my airline ID”) (on the drinking/smoking thread) who then rabbited on about the FA serving him a can of beer on the flight deck while the captain puffed away on his ciggie. Pax drinking alcohol whist visiting the flight deck (in the days when they could visit the flight deck) was unheard of on any airline I’ve ever been associated with.

Remember the big read print at the bottom of the Home Page.

(Edited for typos.)

[Captain Stable]

It's always good advice, as Wiley says, to remember the red print at the bottom of the page.

I have no idea at all whether Flapping@30 is genuine or not, and nor does anyone else who doesn't know him/her. I am merely glad that all responses here demonstrated pride in professionalism, airmanship and flight safety. :cool:

Of course, any journo wanting to pose as a pilot and prompt silly responses from people here wouldn't be able to use anything they got, because the impostor wouldn't have the faintest idea whether the "news-worthy" response he/she got was from a professional pilot who's merely wanting to wind up journos and would never actually dream of acting in any manner other than professionally, or from another total impostor wanting to wind up other pilots! :D

[Smokie]

If flapping@30 is indeed genuine, then in that situation it may be advisable to transmit "XYZ 123 GOING AROUND" after all, silence from the other seat could indicate PILOT INCAPCITATION, this is what you should have been trained to do,Take Control. That way ATC have been alerted that the approach can not be carried out due Minima and or Pilot Incapacitation, you declare an emergencey if neccessary in the latter case.
If the guy in the other seat is awake then he'll have no choice but to carry out the G/A, if he is incapacitated then you taking control will have saved the day.

I hope this helps, otherwise pull the FDR if you have one.:(

BTW was this a non precision approach, seems this was quite a high rate of descent otherwise with "virtually no wind"? If it was an ILS/ Cat 2 then you should have probably had a "Loc Dev" in which case you probably should have gone around anyway ! mmmmmm.......

[Flapping@thirty]

I can see that this thread will probably self destruct shortly. I was looking for some confirmation of my views (wich I got ), hoping to hear how other people have dealt with this problem before and wondered if any of the busters (there are obviously some of them around) would be brave enough to come forward and put their views to an experienced and informed audience.

As far as trying to wrestle an aircraft from somebody in such posession of the truth while in IMC and 150ft off the deck. I rather not try, thanks. The second option seems better. It was a cat1.

Just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean that PPRuNe is not full of journos....

Thanks for the contributions and, errr... do not keep them comming in case anybody shows a different opininon. We would all be very confused then!

D.

[Wiley]

As far as trying to wrestle an aircraft from somebody in such posession of the truth while in IMC and 150ft off the deck. I rather not try, thanks. Reading that comment, I'm reminded of the saying "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing." If you were who you say you are, you'd know that that is exactly what a real FO is required to do in the situation(s) you've presented us.

[BOAC]

Is that a padlock I see before me...................?

[BlueEagle]

Yes, I think this topic has now run it's natural course, thanks to everyone for their contributions.

BlueEagle - Moderator.