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View Full Version : Easyjet to buy 120 A319s, with options for another 120 a/c


Massey1Bravo
14th Oct 2002, 06:21
Click here for the easyJet press release (http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20021014_01.html)


14 October 2002
easyJet selects Airbus as preferred supplier for 120 new aircraft
easyJet plc ("easyJet"), Europe's leading low-cost airline, today announced that it had selected Airbus as the preferred supplier for 120 A319 aircraft, with options with price protection on a further 120 A319s.

easyJet has granted Airbus exclusivity for 45 days to agree documentation. The agreement in principle is subject to contract. The detailed terms are subject to confidentiality restrictions, and any final agreement will be subject to shareholder approval.

Key points of the deal:


Firm order for 120 Airbus A319 aircraft for delivery from September 2003 over 5 years
Options with price protection on a further 120 Airbus A319 aircraft until 2012
Airbus A319 will be configured with 150 seats, with the possibility of increasing to 156, compared to 149 on the Boeing 737-700
Options for larger sized Airbus A320 and Airbus A321 at pre-agreed prices.

It is expected that the final contract would provide easyJet with a number of significant financial benefits:


easyJet estimates substantial savings, compared to buying additional B737-700s today
easyJet estimates the A319 would achieve an approximate 10% improvement per aircraft over the existing Boeing 737 operating cost base (measured per available seat kilometre)
Airbus to provide extensive support so that the introduction of the A319 to be no more expensive than the B737-700 in the first two years
Airbus backed maintenance program means cost not higher than Boeing
Airbus assistance reduces residual value risk on remaining 10 owned B737-300s.

Introduction of new aircraft:


A319s will be introduced initially via easyJet's Geneva base from August 2003 operating under easyJet's Swiss air operator's licence
Eventually both the Airbus A319s and Boeing 737-700s will be interchangeable on all easyJet routes maintaining the "any aircraft, any route" aspect of the easyJet business model.

Stelios Haji-Ioannou, easyJet Chairman, said:

"As easyJet's largest single shareholder, I was faced with the dilemma of either following the conventional wisdom in the marketplace in order to keep shareholders happy in the short term, or doing what's right for all shareholders in the long run.

"We, at the Board, decided to do what's right. We refused to overpay in order to improve the stock price in the short term. It should be an offence to mis-use that level of corporate resources.

"At the end of the day 'low cost' companies remain 'low cost' by not wasting money. Sticking to old-fashioned fads like 'low cost airlines only fly Boeing' does not reduce costs. This order is big enough to be put to a vote by all shareholders. I will personally spend a lot of my time over the next couple of weeks along with the CEO and the Chairman-elect talking to our shareholders in order to explain the benefits of this deal. Having looked at several reference points on aircraft pricing including our own 44 Boeings, the offers Go Fly had received before the acquisition and the Ryanair deal, I am satisfied we have done the right thing by waiting. Having acquired Go Fly, one of the very few other potential buyers of significant numbers of aircraft, we have exploited the contestable market to its full potential. About four years ago, as a small airline we bought 15 B737-700s with no competition. Today, buying 120 aircraft in a competitive market, we can now purchase aircraft at approximately 30% per seat below the prices, adjusted for inflation, we achieved then.

"I have also followed the great success JetBlue have experienced with the Airbus product in the US. It offers an excellent, comfortable cabin for passengers, exceptional reliability and low fuel burn. The wider aisle also means faster boarding and deplaning, and therefore quick turnarounds. We also like the sizing of the A320 family, which allows us to graduate up to the 180 seat A320 and even 220 seat A321, if we choose to do so in the future."

Ray Webster, easyJet Chief Executive, said:

"After exhaustive research and several rounds of negotiation with both Airbus and Boeing, the Board is convinced that we have achieved a tremendous deal which will produce a step-change reduction in our cost base.

"Airbus has demonstrated an enthusiasm to do business with us which is unmatched in my experience.

"We believe that the overall deal which they have offered us, together with their willingness to support the costs of introducing a new aircraft type to our fleet far outweigh the costs of the complexity of running a dual fleet."

Noel Forgeard, President and Chief Executive of Airbus, said that he was immensely gratified with easyJet's decision:

"The A319 will do an outstanding job for easyJet, providing its passengers with more comfort, higher reliability and, with its unbeatable operating economics, the opportunity for lower fares. We are very excited at entering into a long term partnership with one of the world's most dynamic, low cost airlines."


So what changes will happen to the current easyJet pilots now that the company decides to run a dual fleet of 737s/A319s?

outofsynch
14th Oct 2002, 06:46
It had to be.......... Airbus wasnt going to let this one pass.

mjenkinsblackdog
14th Oct 2002, 07:43
Big Mistake!:cool:
Its not all about saving money in the short term .Its about reliability and robustness 5 years down the road.:cool:
Interesting what rostering and engineering will make of it.
City isnt impressed shares down 7.25 p.
The order is estimated at 4billion.

MaxAOB
14th Oct 2002, 08:01
Guess that an Airbus Type Rating is going to be pretty handy over the next few years then!!

:) ;) :D ;) :)

Fly_Right
14th Oct 2002, 08:19
easy has taken the bold step rather than the predictable soft option. The bus is up to the job having been used (and abused) in the charter market since Excalibur orderded them in 1992. They were good reliable workhorses then as they will be now.

Well done easyJet!!!

mjenkinsblackdog
14th Oct 2002, 08:27
fly right.
Disagree, most unreliable aircraft on uk register is an airbus owned by a charter airline north of watford.:cool:
Political move to gain slots throughout europe is also a consideration behind decision.
Particularly, paris and others.:cool:

khasabman
14th Oct 2002, 08:43
mjbd WRONG! Having 4000+ hours on the 320 it gets my vote, reliable, modern and great to fly.

EGGW
14th Oct 2002, 08:47
Unreliable my a**e. That report on the spotty M aircraft was bulls*t. Ay Spotty M we have an open reporting system of Air Safety Reports, it is a safety culture, and in no way has anything to do with reliability. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/stick.gif

Check out the PPrune archives for the threads on G-MONX, you will see the thread completly trashes the uninformed journos.
Also see reply on Monacrh Website Spotty M (http://www.fly-monarch.com) News section.

In trim
14th Oct 2002, 09:00
.....and even if the report on the Spotty M aircraft is valid, so what. I can show you a few very unreliable Boeing's which may well have been "friday afternoon aircraft builds". You cannot base your argument on one or two specific aircraft in this way.

Besides, we all know there were some reliability problems in the early days, but it's a very mature product now.

Well done easy....definitely the right decision for the long term. The 737NG is just a re-warmed version of the old generation aircraft, whilst the Airbus is modern and definitely the aircraft for the future.

.....and remember, easy will keep flying a sizeable fleet of -700's, so their original intention of achieving the benefits of a contestible market will be there for a while to come!

Bigpants
14th Oct 2002, 09:14
I have flown the Airbus with Excalibur,Airtours and currently with BA. It is a first class aircraft with a very high despatch reliabilty and the customers love it.

I remember one trip from Manchester to Palma with 180 pax and the jet only burnt 5 tonnes of fuel. Yes we had a tailwind but nothing exceptional. It is a very efficient aircraft and it has proved its value over the years with numerous charter operators.

Does anyone think there may be a signing on fee next year with Easy? Get your Airbus rating asap...
Regards BP :) :) :)

simba101
14th Oct 2002, 09:34
The money men don't like it - EZY shares currently 9.5p off on volume of nearly 90,000 shares.

easyQuote (http://www.londonstockexchange.com/landmark/EastAnglia/company_EastAnglia.asp?sedol=0164199&landmark=True&landmarksource=/landmark/companies.asp)

Tiger
14th Oct 2002, 09:40
I thought the low cost model worked by operating 1 type of aircraft, having 2 types on the fleet pushes up costs.

And one thing for sure 150 seats on a 319 is going to be very very tight!
Hell of a lot of aircraft 120...so Air Europe.

MaxAOB
14th Oct 2002, 09:44
This has to be good news. Reliability has a number of statistics and of course lies. A number of A319 orders have been cancelled since 9/11 and the deal that easy are getting will undoubtedly be outstanding. I am sure that there will be issues for a low cost operator to cope with by introducing a new fleet but they will have done their homework.

Political decision based on slots etc? If that is a contributary factor so what! That's business as well isn't it? What it does offer Easy is the ability to quickly open up their route structure - especially if they go to the 321 to longer distances and more importantly capacity for hardly any additional cost, the yield would be greater or the seats maybe even cheaper. Despite that though during most of the year you could easily fill a 747 on routes like Malaga, Faro and Alicante, so it would make sense to use bigger aeroplanes on these established routes and all on the same type rating!

The future of the business has changed in a number of ways but seeing orders like Ryan and Easy have placed does at least mean that there will be pilot jobs. How often do you see orders for this number of aircraft from established 'old school' operators nowdays - not very often, only the 'new boys' are doing it and for the pilot workforce who have been battered over the last 12 months this has to be excellent news.

The actual implementation dates etc are still to be announced in detail but i for one am quite enthused by it. I am watching this space - My own future might even be orange!!

:) ;) :p ;) :)

springbok449
14th Oct 2002, 09:46
Bigpants et al, just wondering what were the turnaround times with the Airbus?
Are 25 mins turnarounds realistic with the bus? Although this is obviously not a probelm at LTN as they seem to be nearer to the hour at the moment!!

newswatcher
14th Oct 2002, 10:15
Stock market drop not unexpected, city wants confirmation about how the purchase will be financed. If another rights issue in the pipeline, then price will be negative for a bit.

marpilot
14th Oct 2002, 10:31
120 aircraft, more than a 120 jobs! Too easy!

mjenkinsblackdog
14th Oct 2002, 10:35
Bite.
We are comparing b737/a319 not b757 laddie.:cool:
khabsman.
My experience was flying a b767 to replace a broken Airbus in the Middle east for Gulfair.
The Bus just fell appart due to high temperature and conditions.
Main failures were ac systems and hydraulics[often using alt system to get the gear down].
Happy now.:cool:
Plus crashed in crosswind takeoff at abu dhabi,and went swimming in the Gulf on its way into Bahrain.:cool:
But then again youve only operated around europe so what do know.

Tricky Woo
14th Oct 2002, 10:52
Hmm, seems obvious that running two types concurrently will increase costs. I'm a bit shocked that Easyjet estimate the A319 to be 10% cheaper to operate than the 737s. I don't believe it, personally, but that's politics for you.

Easyjet will just have to get rid of all those non-strategic 737s.

:-)

TW

brabazon
14th Oct 2002, 11:01
I think you'll find that easyJet have done a very detailed financial comparison between the two types and will have taken all the concerns mentioned in these posts into consideration. On the basis of the negatives they will have built in "risk costs" of going with Airbus instead of the known costs for Boeing, with this figure they will have gone to Airbus and sought a price for the aircraft which will cancel out the risk and on top of that obtain guarantees for things like maintenance etc. The 10% reduction in cost/ASK will be based on these figures, and believe it or not, they will make sure Airbus delivers.

The Sweeney
14th Oct 2002, 11:30
Good news for Boeing.

Airbus sells at a price rumoured to be at break even or at slight loss per a/c which means the EU are propping up this deal or are they goingto bump up the price for the larger a/c which will mean carriers looking at "cheap" Boeing?

Airbus capacity now to accept any new orders is now tight to say the least (read: cannot accept any further big orders for 318/9/20). Boeing can now fulfill orders more easily.

Localiser Green
14th Oct 2002, 11:38
Does this mean that EZY will finally be able to land in the fog at Luton in the winter months, rather than diverting to STN and surrounds while the likes of Monarch and Britannia merrily trundle on in with their CATIIIb approaches?

In trim
14th Oct 2002, 11:45
I agree with brabazon....this has been a very thorough study. The analysis has been entirely based on cost and political issues such as slots were not an issue.

With a multi-base operation such as eJ, the "complexity" of operating two types is not insurmountable. Key bases (starting with GVA, then moving onto.....LGW, STN, etc.???) will no doubt transition one at a time to an Airbus operation, with crew training etc. taken into account. This has all been factored in, with allowance made for 'complexity costs' etc.

eJ will still be operating a very sizeable fleet of 737's....the fleet size of that will still give considerable benefits.

The traditional cost model of sticking to one aircraft type becomes invalid if a new (and better) product comes along.....do you stick with the old type even if your detailed study says this is the wrong thing to do?

This gives the opportunity to negotiate the best supplier deals....not just for the aircraft but maintenance, support, etc. rather than being held to ransom by a single supplier.

Compared with the 737-700 the A319 offers a wider, more passenger-friendly fuselage, same or better seat-pitch throughout, etc.

Wider aisle and bigger overhead lockers means quicker pax boarding and disembarking. Size and geometry of the holds means baggage loading is as fast or probably faster. (Bear in mind the 737-700 is high enough to warrant a beltloader in most stations, so the higher holds of the A319 is not an issue.)

All in all a better aircraft, a very good financial deal, increased passenger appeal, turnround times same or better, a multi-base environment where the type can be introduced progressively on a base-by-base approach, etc. etc. Sounds like a winning formula to me.

(....and a nice little fold-down table for the packed lunch!)

Colonel Klink
14th Oct 2002, 12:11
When the final envelopes were opened, the A319 came in £100 million cheaper, thats why easyJet had to buy it (and why Stelios is so delighted). Since no airbus yet built has taken a pounding with a dozen takeoffs and landing a day on the sectors we operate, it will be interesting to see how they do hold up. Knowing that theyt are now committed to buying 120 aiframes should help the pay negotiations for the pilots, because under present conditions they will never get enough guys to fly them!!:cool: :confused: :eek: :D :o

noflare
14th Oct 2002, 12:22
Its great to see the instant experts come out of the woodwork to dispense their wisdom to us lesser mortals.

Do you gloom & doom merchants really think EZY would go ahead with such an order without having researched it thoroughly and have some backup/guarantees from Airbus.

This is great for European jobs, maybe even those of you who knocked the low cost airlines might think again, then again I hope you dont bother !.

MJBD if you spent anytime in GF you will know that the 320 was/is a great workhorse for GF, the 340 had the major teething problems, and the 2 incidents you quote, well how can you blame the a/c for that ?!!!!:rolleyes:

swashnob
14th Oct 2002, 12:28
In Trim, most of what you've said, I was going to say.

Having worked for an operator who made the same change, all these arguments were brought up at that time.

Issues such as Airstairs (or not), baggage holds that are too high, engineering problems etc, are all important, but being selfish about it, it is ALL good news for the pilots.

Get the type rating, get the experience and then leave fi you want to. Just don't let them bond you and make sure you get the package right.

By the way, the Airbus is worse on dispatch reliability (with my airlie anyway).....trust me.

Regards

mjenkinsblackdog
14th Oct 2002, 12:33
No flare ,
I was merely highlighting these accidents which have happened on Airbus{none on b767 or tristar}.
Plus before you come up with the usual argument an expat was on one of those flights.
I am merely stating what the a320 reliability was like over the 4 years I was there.
Anyway ,it will all come out in the wash.:cool:

orange pilot
14th Oct 2002, 13:18
A shiny new Airbus An EMA base, May be a pay increase. Life looking a bit better!

moleslayer
14th Oct 2002, 13:22
And that's just the bmi pilots :D

World Traveller
14th Oct 2002, 13:58
No news on engine choice yet?

WT

brabazon
14th Oct 2002, 14:19
WT

No, you'll have to wait a few more weeks for that.

Skipness One Echo
14th Oct 2002, 14:24
Engine choice? Christ, I thought you had to buy TWO per airframe! This is taking low cost too far......

Fly_Right
14th Oct 2002, 14:31
Not air europe tigger. easy are largely filling their aircraft every day. Evidently about 80-85 pax per sector average is the break even load factor. Most all flights operating with 130+pax. Even the crack of dawn and late night ones!.

The bus IS reliable. I also have 4000+ hours on the 20/21 in several different companies and the reliability is there.

Airbus is bending over backwards in many directions to "facilitate" the 319's into service. Thus the financial risk should be about the same as with a Boeing re-order. And also, when it comes time for the next purchase this keeps both airfraimers honest. No complacency here with easy's preference.

Again well done!

Astronut
14th Oct 2002, 15:13
Who Cares. Expansion = jobs.

Few Cloudy
14th Oct 2002, 15:19
Well it looked like an interesting subject for a couple of posts, until the aggro brigade got on it. Let's see if we can get back on track...

Very nice for the GVA operation who have been having to stay on the -300, while the -700 was being introduced in the UK. And - who knows if this won't let some force-retired Swissair guys get a look-in on the home turf (and incidentally free up qualified 737 guys to help out in LTN?)

I would have said that it was just what was needed to inject some nouse and pride into easy again - the posts above make me wonder - can they really be what they say?

JUMBO400
14th Oct 2002, 15:39
Been flying 319/320 for the last 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours
a load of **** but I must say it is reliable can not wait to get back to Boeing in the new year.

Firestorm
14th Oct 2002, 15:41
Excellent news for all of us, and if as some claim, the 319 is not too reliable, good news for the engineering erks as well.

Great news.
Great thread.

Can't wait for the My Little Ponies at dawn. If that's the maturity that goes with 14k hours TT I hope I never get my ATPL!! Grow up girls.

fmgc
14th Oct 2002, 15:55
Good god, will you guys please grow up, are you really pilots?

This is good news for all pilots of airbus operators, there are a lot of experienced fo's out there, who may well consider moving to Easy for a command.

As for reliability, the A320 and A321 have very good despatch reliability, the difference between that and that 737 is negligable. I don't know what the A319 reliability is like, anybody from BA like to comment?

There will definitely be a disadvantage to having no airstairs, but if easy keep on top of their handling agents it shouldn't prove to be too much of a problem.

As for the share price, I think that you will find that it is usual for the value of a company to go down when it makes a large purchase. It has nothing to do with lack of approval from the market.

The things that I would be most worried about are:

1. They are going to need a lot of staff for this enormous expansion. They are struggling now to find crews, ground agents, baggage handlers, check in staff etc. as it is. Where the hell are they going to come from?

Imagine the scenario, in order to attract all these staff, eJ have to increase pay and conditions (especially for Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers and Ops) therefore costs go up, therefore ticket prices go up, therefore eJ become less competitive and BA and BMi start to do better again. Could eJ become a victim of it's own success?

2. Is there REALLY a market for all these additional flights? When does easy reach its saturation point? Always be wary of a company that expands quickly.

We certainly live in interesting times.

mjenkinsblackdog
14th Oct 2002, 16:29
Jumbo,
Did you do a course in house ,or down at toulouse.
What was it like?:cool:

ETOPS
14th Oct 2002, 16:34
As a regular passenger in our A319's ( I'm a commuter) I am a bit perplexed as to how easy are going to get an eventual 156 pax in! The BA aircraft are in 126 config and I wouldn't say leg room is generous. Are they planning to delete galleys and toilets?
Reliability seems good but they are all brand new - one publicised engine prob with a BHX based aircraft but no other stories yet.

One question for easy planners - are you going to stick with containerised luggage or specify the hold modification for lose stowage like Boeing??

52049er
14th Oct 2002, 16:47
Reliabilty & Turnarounds

1) The new 319's/320's are the most reliable new aircraft BA have ever bought (%despatch reliability)

2) No probs with quick turnarounds - brakes on today into XXX at XX.31, brakes off at XX.56 without breaking sweat.

cabbott1
14th Oct 2002, 17:16
Good News for Airbus!

Easyjet refer to Jetblue in a statement regarding Low Cost. I flew with Jetblue from FLL and turnaround times varied from 30min to 1hr in some cases, didn't notice Jetblue making 20m turns. Most JB flights last for over 2-3 hours.

The question is from a ground handling point of view "Is it possible to turn a A319 in 20min"

Simple things like

Baggage: Loading? EZY 737's didn't get belt loaders at my last station, the 733 was low to the ground and only the 73G required extra effort. How higher is the A319 of the ground? Would this slow the turn down?

Fuel:
Which is quicker to fuel? A319 or Boeing 733/73G these minutes and seconds count on a 20min turn.

I'm sure there are lots of other things but in the longrun i think they will make it work and good luck to them and all you guys who will fly it.

Max Angle
14th Oct 2002, 17:22
There will definitely be a disadvantage to having no airstairs, but if easy keep on top of their handling agents it shouldn't prove to be too much of a problem.
Who says they won't have airstairs. It is an option if they want it, the first BA (ex BCAL) 320's have airstairs, costs a few quid (minus easyjet discount of course) and weighs about 300kg. Worth it if you use them a lot, if you mainly park on jet ways then it's not worth hauling the extra weight around for 25 years.

Hand Solo
14th Oct 2002, 17:26
BAs A319 reliability is excellent. There are a few repetitive teething problems as its a relatively new aircraft with the V2500 engines, but most either sort themselves out in time (eg packs slow to come on line) or just require a quick reset of a circuit breaker. Technical delays on despatch are few and far between and when things go wrong its usually just a computer that needs swapping. As for the quick turnarounds its exactly as 52049er states. We regularly do 25 minute turnarounds or less, with the critical path (so to speak) getting the cleaners & caterers off so the pax can board, or loading the holds. Belt loaders are nice but not necessary as I've seen a couple of stations just back a flatbed truck up to the hold and lob the bags in. Airstairs were fitted to our original 320s so perhaps they could be ordered as an extra for the 319? The flight deck itself can be fully prepped and programmed by one person in under ten minutes with ease. Squeezing 156 pax on shouldn't even be difficult. The BA aircraft are certified up to about 147 pax. If you put charter seats in and deleted the forward wardrobe and galley 156 should be easy, plus you'd have 3 lavs to boot! On top of all that its a comfortable aircraft to fly with a spacious, well thought out, quiet flight deck, two proper jump seats that you don't have to build yourself.

fmgc
14th Oct 2002, 17:48
Max Angle,

Very true, I hadn't considered that they might, I have heard that the airbus airstairs are sh*t, but have no reliable information on that!!!

canberra
14th Oct 2002, 18:38
found out today that easy looked at using blackpool instead of liverpool when the airline first started. the management at blk werent interested! and how many airlines use blackpool?

jumpseater
14th Oct 2002, 18:45
easyjet have indeed used Blackpool a couple of times in the past!, not many people have mentioned the other big issue, the amount of jobs and job stability throughout europe this will create, big credit points for easy to get access to new routes!.

As a slight diversion I see simba101 aka the guv is back, interesting to see that his earlier prediction about GO outlasting easyJet was 100% wrong!

Buster the Bear
14th Oct 2002, 19:40
156 easySeats on an easyBus!

Delete First Office add passenger (Premium priced seat with good views). Delete 3 cabin crew add 3 passengers who get their seats cheaper by selling from the easyKiosk. 2 nearly free seats on the loos.

There you go 156 on a 150 seater!

Hope they order Cat 3b equipment.

Flight Safety
14th Oct 2002, 20:07
Boeing Statement in Response to the Loss of the easyJet Campaign

SEATTLE, Oct. 14, 2002 - easyJet, the United Kingdom-based low-fare carrier, today announced it had ordered 120 Airbus A319s. Boeing had offered them 120 Next-Generation 737s.

"Boeing took this campaign very seriously and fought it aggressively." said Toby Bright, vice president of Sales, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "Any sale loss is painful, of course, but win or lose, we value our customer relationships. EasyJet is an important customer. We are proud to be a part of their success thus far and will continue to work with them in the future.

"Given the success of the 737 among low-cost carriers, we believe that Airbus offered easyJet a price lower than Boeing was willing to go. When you add the apparent guarantees on maintenance and transition costs, it seems that the competition was a "must-win" at any cost for them."

Even without this order, the numbers show that worldwide, the 737 is the preferred airplane of low-cost carriers. The low-fares model of Southwest Airlines and Ryanair that is copied around the world is based on operating an all Boeing 737 fleet. There are some 900 737s either in service or on order for the low-fare market compared to just around 100 of the competitor's aircraft. The Next-Generation 737s have the lowest operating costs in their class - almost 4 percent lower on a typical route than the closest competitor. The maintenance costs of the 737 are up to 35 percent cheaper. The 737 is the industry leader in reliability. The 737 is also quicker to load and unload, which allow carriers to make maximum use of their aircraft.

MaxAOB
14th Oct 2002, 20:43
I don't know the bare facts but i can't see why the 73 should be cheaper to operate. It certainly isn't my airlines experience. During the 70's and 80's the Ford Cortina was the preferred fleet car for most businesses, it was cheaper to run because of the stranglehold it had established in the market which in turn forced parts manufacturers to produce a lot of bits at cheaper cost. Ford could make loads and guarantee sales, make more at a cheaper unit cost. Volume generally = cheaper costs. Ford then binned the cortina and introduced a new model the sierra and presto overnight lost their domination and rivals gained more of a foothold.
Overall i think that this reliability issue is a misnoma, the 'in general' recent introduction of the bus to engineers with years of experience on 73's etc has meant that they were learning on the job. My airline had the same issues, a few years on with more experience we now know about the packs and the odd cb reset which no longer delays departures. I remember waiting over an hour in the early days to try and fix a 'faulty pack' but these days we just leave it alone and it comes on line.
73 quicker to unload, ,load and turn round - not in my experience! Quicker than a 320 and 21 perhaps because they carry more punters! Own stairs can be specified as an option and we operate some with, some without. Those with are a real bonus at busy places in the height of summer, especially FAO where they charge a fortune for the airbridges.
The deal is probably a had to win price, but so what? More aircraft about = cheaper in the long run and a sustainable long term - the bus will do exceptionally well. Having spent years in 737's all of our pilots prefer the working environment of the bus, initially some old captains are sceptical because they knew the 73 inside out and were suddenly launched into the computer age. Now they love it and that table is a godsend. For easy i reiterate that with the same type rating for their pilots it has enabled them to start laying plans for the future to up their capacity and target other routes for the low cost treatmentt hat would make a 737 uneconomic by virtue of enabling the same yield. The costs of a 321 against a 319 are not dissimilar and these aircraft operated in the low cost style will make them even more competitive down to the big paying routes such as AGP, FAO and ALC.
What i wonder about is as the low cost operations grow in size is how they will prevent the spiralling costs that may be associated with that same growth.
Still although Ryan is irish it has relied on the UK market to grow and demonstrates to europe that we are leading the way. Shame our primary airports are shambolic and handicapped by public inquiries etc. Hopefully though this will keep the regional bases growing so we can all live in the regions and still fly a decent jet.
Let's all get behind easy as they prosper and offer pilots with significant outstanding debts from financing their training the opportunity to achieve their goal. The face of aviation has changed for good, the glory days of BA have gone. No final salary and all pilots on similar T's and C's rather than a few very senior 744 captains whose seniority allows them to draw 6 figure salaries and only work a few days a month - then saddle the business with an astronomical pension requirement. Met a 56 year old ex hamble cadet the other day said his pension was 74k and was considering an offer to become a TRE with Easy on a similar salary!!
Please don't accuse me of being bitter, good luck to them but that is no longer sustainable. The market is more orange to joe punter than a favorite airline market.

Ranted on for long enough! Last time i wrote this many words was my english o level! With 6000 hrs and over 2000 in the bus but still at least 4 years to command the future is looking more and more orange!!

Best wishes to everyone - Long time dead so enjoy it while you can!

:p :) :D :) :p

saman
14th Oct 2002, 22:01
Buster,
Every member of the A320 Family comes with Cat IIIB as standard and always has. No need for a HUD unless your going into non-equiped airfields.
By-the-by, 150 seats in the A319 comes at 30" pitch, 156 squeezes it up a bit but 150 is more comfortable than anything else in the LCC market today.

whatshouldiuse
14th Oct 2002, 22:12
In reply to Cabbot, most JB flights are not between 2-3 hours. They have 3 primary markets: NY- Florida, NY- West Coast and intrastate NY. These fights within NY might take 30 mins. MAX.

Getting back to the discussion, did Boeing ever stand a chance? With Airbus having the support of the EU governments, they should have offered a lower price and did. Boeing is a large company, but no company can compete against a multi-national coalition. Those are the facts.

BTW, I'm not a Boeing supporter, I prefer the Airbus too. Gives an illusion of more space. Having said that, I'm just calling it the way I see it.


Andy

Localiser Green
14th Oct 2002, 23:10
Andy,

Your home state is bigger than you think, jetBlue's shortest run (JFK, NY to Syracuse, NY) is 01:05 in duration. Longest runs out to Oakland at 06:15 duration.

The Florida flights are roughly 02:30 each way, with San Juan routes touching 04:00 per sector and the rest of the west coast routes 5:00 to 6:00.

Pretty versatile aircraft the 320 huh?

Average sector length of 2-3 hours sounds about right to me anyway.

Rananim
15th Oct 2002, 01:20
Unusual to hear so many "pilots" say they prefer Airbus?
Airbus' philosophy is radical and deeply flawed in its man-machine interface which primarily engages the weakest sensory channel of the poor pilot/system operator,namely the optical channel.Maximum power is not available in the event of an emergency.The autothrust system is nuts.Endless protection features lead to over-confidence in the system(always a bad thing in aviation) and over-reliance on automation.Airmanship and manual flying skills are eroded if the pilot has flown a conventional a/c beforehand;and if he hasnt,then he wont need them anyway.The whole design centers around the desire to reduce the pilot to a system monitor.But they forgot that humans dont excel in this role at all. What makes you so happy?

Boeing's design is simplicity itself;man-machine interface is uncluttered.No second-guessing.Its all about "what does the pilot want".
The sad thing is that a lot of pilots today dont mind NOT being pilots.
Did easyjet consider the pilot's opinions before making their decision or was it strictly based on economics?

GeofJ
15th Oct 2002, 01:50
I have to say upfront that I am a big Boeing fan for a lot of reasons but that does not mean that Airbus cannot compete with the Boeings for LLC's. I do have to point out that the comments in the various postings referring to the Bus wider aisles and more spacious cabins are a bit misleading especially when you pack 156 pax into the 319. Sure they are a little bigger but with that pax density it won't mean a thing.

Airbus may have well bought the order and may have needed to do that to crack the LCC market - time will tell. Boeing has taken a few big blows over the last year both in the commercial and military aircraft sectors, hopefully next year will be kinder.

ZFT
15th Oct 2002, 03:16
<By-the-by, 150 seats in the A319 comes at 30" pitch, 156 squeezes it up a bit but 150 is more comfortable than anything else in the LCC market today>

Isn't 30'' pitch the BA 744 economy pitch? If so, seems more than adaquate for short haul.

Localiser Green
15th Oct 2002, 07:15
ZFT,

If I remember rightly 32" is the typical BA 747 economy seat pitch. 30" isn't bad for shorthaul thought IMO.

Remember MyTravelLite still squeeze 180 into the A320-200, at 28" pitch throughout. And they are a "low-cost airline"... right?

Colonel Klink
15th Oct 2002, 08:34
Rananim, very intersting post on the nature of Airbus design philosophy. But, I have been at easyJet for 5 years, and I can tell you without doubt, they don't consult their pilots on anything!!!!!:mad:

mjenkinsblackdog
15th Oct 2002, 08:39
Looks like it all came down to simple economics.:cool:

Bus14
15th Oct 2002, 09:04
Ah Rananim,

It must be at least a couple of years since we last sparred in a Boeing/Airbus debate. I had assumed that you had grown up, joined the rest of us in the 21st century, and moved on from your unfortunate and wholly misinformed attitude to Airbus products. It appears though that you have not. To you, therefore, I have nothing further to say.

To those who have the ability and willingness to embrace newer ideas I offer the following.

I have not flown the B737. I have, however, flown the MD83, the B757, and the A320/321. I have been flying the A320/321 for ten years and have almost 7000 hours on type. I fly from both seats.

It is a delight to fly. It has Cat 3B as standard (subject to operator approval from the regulator). It has excellent field performance from shortish runways (Blackpool to TFS, no problem), and the A319 ought to be even better. It is reliable. We operate in the UK charter market, and my base is the busiest in the company, getting world beating utilisation year round. On the A320 we have achieved a 25 min turnround with full change of 180 Pax, bags, catering, and crew plus fuel uplift. our normal turnround is longer, but short turnrounds are entirely feasable if you put your mind to it. All our fleet is fitted with brake fans, so brake cooling time is not an issue.

I still miss the airstairs from the MD83, but these are an option on the Bus, I hope Easy have taken them.

Rananim is not the only person who likes to bad mouth the Bus, of course, but when we converted a heap of B757 chaps and chappeses to to it this year, most were enthusiastic about their new steed. Some are going back to the Boeing, but primarily for lifestyle/basing reasons.

At the end of the day, the beancounters have made this decision, but I commend the current generation of airbus products to any pilot worthy of the title 'Professional'. Bigoted luddites, however, need not apply!

Rwy in Sight
15th Oct 2002, 10:28
A couple of issues that come into my mind regarding the purchase.

1. Do the airports where ej operates have high loaders. If they do then I would think that fast turnarounds should not be a problem since LD3-46 should be really fast to handle in comparaison with a buch of luggage.

2. My feeling - I guess unfounded is that A319 can not take the same beating a B737 can take. Maybe because it is lighter maybe because it is more sofisitcated... I don't know but I would welcome any commnets.

3. It seems AI would fincance the additional cost of operating an additional type.

4. Finally under the current climate it is more difficult to get an order rather than to fullfill it. Airbus get an order to keep its production line up and running while Boeing should hunt for orders to do the same.

A big cheer for ej that buys aircraft in the middle of a recession in order to have them available for the next boom in travel.


I agree that 150 seats are tight in A319 let alone 156. How about the need for a new certification due to larger number of pax.


Oops I overdid it

Rwy in Sight

Wibble Hatstand
15th Oct 2002, 10:39
Rananim and doggie whatever,

Just one question....

Have either of you actually flown the airbus or undertaken an airbus conversion course?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Or, given your comments on the reliability of the 'bus, are you licenced engineers with line experience of the airbus?

Again, yes or no?

If you have answered no to the above questions, then you cannot possibly be in a position to comment knowledgeably on the merits or otherwise of the airbus.

It is interesting that the vast majority of comments on this thread (and in 'real life') from people that are qualified on both the Boeing and Airbus, are of a positive nature. The only negative comments are from people like yourselves that are commenting from a position of ignorance.

Basing your arguments along the lines of 'I once saw an airbus break-down' or 'An airbus once crashed' could just as easily apply to any commercial airliner could it not?

May I politely suggest that you go and get a few thousand hours experience on the airbus and then come back and pontificate with some knowledge? People might then be more inclined to take note of your side of the discussion.

Man Flex 32.5
15th Oct 2002, 12:54
For what itís worth I thought I would add my opinion. I have flown 4000 hours on the bus A340, A320/1 and currently have 500 hours on the B737-300 & 700, so I guess Iím sufficiently experienced to comment. I like the boeing but Iím afraid that the bus wins hands down, it is far superior. A lot of thought has gone into designing the flight deck, which is comfortable, a nice operating environment as well as being aesthetically pleasing.

Other items:

Autopilot remains engaged for a go-around single or dual operation
Cat 3B
Cat 3A for single engine
Dark cockpit concept
ECAM is good although can get confusing
Table to eat lunch (packed)

My only concern is towards the 156 config as we will need a minimum of 4 cabin crew, unless any concessions are available. If not then why not go for the A320 subject to operating costs over yields.

As far as reliability goes the bus is great if itís kept flying, however most tech problems can be solved by a computer reset. Iíve only been sent home the once due to a nosewheel steering problem which is also fly-by-wire. I think the boeing pretty much holds its own here, not had too many probs.

The engineers Iíve spoken to prefer the bus because of its fault monitoring program which prints out the problem for the last sector after landing.

I hope the ACARS isnít deactivated and to achieve the 20 min turnrounds then we will definitely need brake fans fitted. The boeing isnít fitted with brake temp gauges (well we havenít taken the option if itís available) and because of this we have to check the brake cooling schedule after every landing Ė Donít we?

MF32.5
:)

BahrainLad
15th Oct 2002, 15:46
As for the 'bus flight deck.......what did you expect from Porsche!? :D :D

King Kee
15th Oct 2002, 20:23
BITE

Yes, 4 overwing exits. They will use the centre section of the A320 to achieve this.

I understand that any new aircraft in 737 / A319 style (door at each corner, plus overwings) needs 4 overwings if it is to achieve more than 145 seats. Boeing overcame this on the -700 by redesigning the overwing exit to the pop-up type (used on all NG's).

Older types (-300's) are exempt from this 145 rule based on 'grandfather rights'.

Dewdrop
16th Oct 2002, 07:27
I read in one of today's news reports that EZY think they can improve their turnarond times by 10% with the new 310's. I would be interested to hear your comments on what's so different about the Airbus as compared to the Boeing.

mjenkinsblackdog
16th Oct 2002, 07:31
Its a A319 not an A310.
:cool:

Land ASAP
16th Oct 2002, 12:34
Is it me? Or have you all missed the most important repercussion of Ezy ordering all these Airbus?

BA were slowly eeking out their 737's from the clutches of their 'greedy' pilots and planting Airbus' under their backsides. Result - No one to turn to in the Low Frills market when they retired early at 55.

But more importantly, with this order, EasyJet have provided an option to the many (400 rising to 800 in the next few years) Airbus pilots working for GB/BMed and BA Short Haul. So if 'the price isn't right', pilots can go elsewhere.

Congratulations EasyJet, you've solved the projected shortage of pilots with one fell swoop.

Marvellous.

chequesplease
16th Oct 2002, 18:06
Spot on Land ASAP, the 737 Pilot market is almost exhausted so this Bus deal opens up a whole new bunch of shiny guys/gals for Ezy. What of the 700 rated current crop? a looooooooooong wait for a bus rating!

Jet A1
16th Oct 2002, 18:38
In our place the 'Ground Bus' has been cuasing headaches since day one. We operate a dying fleet of 733's and new A320/1. We have had no end of problems with getting them to go flying, so many small but no go probs not done us any good !

Given the choice again I think our lot would have gone NG B737.

Good for jobs I agree, but so is Ryanair getting B737-800's !

wilber burroughs
16th Oct 2002, 18:48
no question...its a political purchase...the new europe is fighting back at mother aviation...regardless of attributes of airbus vs. boeing...easy is digging in deep and siding with its logical partner, the frech monster that, given time, will be the first to develop and sell non-piloted aircraft.
time will tell and, yes, in the near future pilots will have to "purchase" 320 type rating...they dont need " butt feeling "
anymore...airbus has written that out of the picture.
damned robot makers.

saman
16th Oct 2002, 18:58
Dewdrop,

I think the critical path is pax off & on so a few reasons for the faster turnround could be;

The wide aisle with a more or less constant aisle width of about 25 inches should allow people to pass during boarding and deplaning so if someone is loading an overhead stowage or deciding which seat to take, boarding will not stop for the duration. As far as I know, all UK operators have chosen the 19 inch aisle and wide seat up till now so this will new to the market. The aisle of a 737, particularly at the front and back in the taper, is really narrow.

The overhead stowages are huge so people will spend less time in the aisles looking for a space to put the bag.

Unlike the 737, all the main-deck doors on the A319 are the same size and opposite each other so boarding/deplaning through the rear left door will be faster on the A319 and any service crews can work faster through the big RHS doors.

On the lower deck, the doors open outwards, so will be blocked by errant bags less often. The 737-700/800 are nearly always loaded by belt loader, just like the bulk loaded Bus, and anyway you can unload/load both types off a flatbed if you really want to. Are easyJet taking the containers? - if yes that could speed turnrounds even more.

Hand Solo
16th Oct 2002, 21:38
What are the odds wilber burroughs is an American? Never mind the cost, just buy political! Since when was the UK part of 'the new Europe'? Remind me again, is it the military wing of Boeing or Airbus which is spending vast sums developing UAVs?

Rob_L
17th Oct 2002, 19:38
Saman has it right about the pax being the critical issue.
Engineering has no problem turning round in less than 30 min, same for fuel and baggage. What tends to happen with pax is those who have heard that its safer down the back, load at the back and grab the rear seats blocking access. Those loading at the front want seats at the front for a quick getaway, again blocking access. If the 319 has wider aisles this would indeed help the situation.

The comment about the 4 overwing doors is interesting. I heard that the new centre section would also bring a slight stretch with it. Could this be enough to give the extra seat space?

jumpseater
18th Oct 2002, 00:38
QUOTE:From Simba101 p1 of this thread,

The money men don't like it - EZY shares currently 9.5p off on volume of nearly 90,000 shares.



Well simba perhaps you might like to monitor share price trends a little more accurately, todays' close at over £3.00 GBP up from about £2.40 GBP when you shot your bolt and posted. As a CEO of a major airline I would have imagined you would know better than to make such a rash analysis.

Perhaps you'd like to add FTSEsim2000 to your flight sim collection and get a bit more practise. You my old china are in danger of not even making the grade of being a 'Legend in your own front room', let alone a 'Legend in your lifetime'.

Capt Homesick
18th Oct 2002, 13:01
Jumpseater, for a better picture of Simba's status as head of a major airline, check JB, and the thread on the return of the Guv..... entertaining reading! :D You're closer to the truth than you think...

saman
19th Oct 2002, 17:58
Rob L
No stretch comes with the extra overwing exit. Airbus are simply using the A320 fuselage centre section on the A319 to get over the exit limit problem. The A319 is stuck at 145 pax with the single overwing but goes up way beyond the space limit with the double overwing.

A320_Murray
23rd Oct 2002, 12:45
http://www.jet-precision.com/mattwork/easJetA320.jpg

Just an edit of a photo.....I know they bought A319's! Just had this A302 pic hehehehehe