Solo IMC

[drauk]

As a qualified and in-practice IMC holder are you happy to fly solo in real IMC conditions (i.e. zero vis for more than just a few minutes, perhaps with some cloud induced turbulence) without an autopilot?

I read somewhere the other day that some pilots elect not to as they feel the workload is too high. If not, how skilled do you want the person in the right hand seat to be - just someone to hold your map? A PPL? An IMC rated PPL? An instructor?

[QNH 1013]

Paragraph one: Yes

Paragraph two: I regard a pilot in the rhs as a bonus providing there is no ambiguity about who does what.

[Devils Advocate]

Before you blast off into the murk just take a moment to remind yourself how many vacuum pumps your aircraft and how you will cope should it, or indeed any other essential items fail while your in IMC. :eek:

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Qualified, not in very regular practice, and no!

Picture the worst case scenario.... your vacuum pump fails, and you're a bit slow to notice it. You eventually figure it out, and recover from the spiral dive on partial panel. You're now terrified, heading in a completely random direction, and - solo, in bumpy IMC - you have to a) not lose control again, b) divert and c) possibly fly an instrument approach at your diversion field.

With 2 vacuum pumps and an autopilot....? Maybe.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Come on, people are not seriously flying in IMC with a single vacuum pump or single electrical gyro, are they?

QDM

[Julian]

Yeah and what happens if both wings fall off!!!!! :rolleyes:

I have an IR and I use it, otherwise whats the point of getting it? If you arent confident in your ability then get some extra training and then get out there and stay current otherwise you have just wasted your money...

[mattpilot]

bunch of wussies here :)

This is what happened to my first flight in a Cessna 172R in very solid IMC with very low bases. This is a true story!

Anyhow, me my instructor, and a instructor buddy who is also an instructor sqeeze into a 172R. We taxi to the run-up area, do the preflight stuff and all stuff looks good. We then take off. Remember, this is my first Instrument rating course flight and its my first time in a 172, and first time in the clouds. Anyway, my instructor thought i'm a good student and i could handle it, and i did. ANyhow, we took off, and after 3 minutes i notice the Attitude indicator disagrees with my Turn and bank indicator and my heading indicator. Wasn't to hard to figure out - anyway, it had a 7degree faulty bank angle indication. Dunno what it was, the DG (directional gyro) was still in good working condition, so i kept on using it and blacked out the AI. Of course my instructor didnt' know what was going on and tried to argue with me to remove it again. I can't say he is the brightest instructor, but hes nice. ANyhow, after convincing him that hes wrong we continue our climbout. Btw, he only had 14 hours IMC time at that point. Pretty scary, huh? And i'm a nut for trusting him.

Anyway, we went on course to the fix and started our hold. Winds were pretty rough. And a Cold front was within 15 miles of the airport. So our wind changed during the holding a couple of times. Since i didn't know where the winds were coming from because of the front, i was off course on the holding path. My instructor freaks out cause we aren't on course and he doesn't want to lose his license. Well he takes the controls and 'tries' to get back on course. Well, he suddenly climbs and speed is reduced. Well, looks like he wasn't to proficient in partial panal flying. Well anyhow, he starts yelling at his instructor buddy in the back "I"ve got the leans! I"VE GOT THE LEANS" repeats it a few times - he sounds like hes high or somethin. :cool: . Anyway, i said f*ck it - he doesn't know what hes doing. I take the controls and - no really, i literally yell at him and tell him to lay off! - and I get us back on course. We hold a few more times then do a VOR approach, still partial panel. Since the ceiling is to low, we went around and did a ILS.

My instructor was amazed. ANyhow, he "politely" told me not to tell anyone about this incident :) - i did anyhow :D hehe

But damn, he freaked me out when he helled "I've got hte leans!" - wouldn't you?



ANyhow, whats the big deal flying in IMC conditions? Its fun and exciting. And if something fails, who cares? use your skill and have even more fun. And when it becomes unmanagable, the person in the other seat aint gonna help you.

When everything goes to hell, thats when you become a pilot!

:cool:

[englishal]

Agree with Julian....Flying in cloud is no different to flying in clear skies, just you see less. As long as you know what you're doing then whats the problem.

To answer your questions:
1) yes
2) if someone wants to come along for the ride then thats fine. If they don't then thats fine also .

On the subject of 2 vacuum pumps, and something to bear in mind....was flying a Seneca which for obvious reasons has two vacuum pumps. One failed and although theoretically everything should have been just dandy on one pump, it wasn't.....

Cheers
EA:)

[alphaalpha]

QDM:
I fly single engine IMC quite frequently and keep reasonably current. When a flight is likely to include a significant amount of IMC, or even VFR on top of overcast, I always take a hand held, battery GPS with me. This will allow us to cope with electrical or vacuum or pitot/static failure reasonably well. It would also help greatly if we ever (heaven forbid) lost both electrics and vacuum. However it is important, as I learned from experience, to make sure your rechargeable batteries are well topped-up!

Mattpilot:
You said your tale happened on the first flight of your instrument rating course. I assume you already held an IMC rating and were in practice at partial panel flying. If not, you were very, very lucky. Nobody reading this thread should assume an gyro instrument failure in IMC (including a go around and two approaches) is a doddle. It isn't, it's a potential killer. I'm also surprised that your instructor had only 14 hours IMC, I thought there was a substantial IRI pre-qualification?? I suspect your post is a wind-up (and I'm falling for it) but the problem is that other pilots may get the wrong, and dangerous, idea of what can be safely done with limited training in IMC.

Drauk:
To answer your original question: Yes, in the first couple of years of getting the IMC rating, I kept current and flew in the conditions you described. However, I was advised to do the IR training. I did, and the benefit was very worthwhile.

Also, I suggest, that except during training (and post-qualification sessions when you extend yourself further), you should not be flying IMC unless you can cope with the workload. Therefore the rhs person, in a single pilot aircraft, should be a bonus who can help if something goes wrong. In normal flying, he/she should do no more than monitor what's going on. The biggest benefits come from a)simulator practice before you go to familiarise yourself with any new approaches, SIDs or STARs and b) an autopilot, which does far more than the rhs to reduce fatigue and provide extra capacity.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Julian,

As you point out, you have an IR and you use it. And there are probably a significant number of IMC rating holders who got trained properly and fly regularly enough in instrument conditions to be safe if something goes wrong.

Most IMC holders though (myself included) are basic PPL holders who mostly fly on nice days, and rarely use the IMC rating "in anger". I don't think that my 15hr IMC course, combined with the amount of flying that I do gives me the competence to cope safely with something going wrong in rough IMC conditions, and - in my view - the same applies to the majority of IMC rating holders.

Fortunately nothing goes wrong most of the time.

I'm happy to be with the "wussies"!! ;)

[mattpilot]

@alphaalpha

If you choose to believe me or not does not matter to me. But i can tell you with full honestly, that i ain't lying.

Of course he had more IFR experience (roughly 75), but only 14.4 (at the time) in clouds. And he only had his instructor job for 4 months, and i was also his first instrument student to go into clouds with.

And it wasn't my first lesson, it was my first 'actual' flight. Prior to it i had 3 hours in sims.

And no, i didn't have an IR at the time and i still dont (no money :( ).

I guess some are just naturals. :cool:

You say its dangerous, sure it is and the incompetent pilot could die, but remember back in the old days, they ALWAYS had to fly on partial panal since they dind't have any good gyros. - how did they survive (well, some of them) ?

[englishal]

The most dodgy bit about partial panel in IMC is actually recognising that the vaccum system has failed, and then to ignore the AI and HI, if possible cover them up so you can't use them....Once you have got that sorted, then its safe to fly PP, although a very good idea to get out of IMC as soon as possible.

I wonder why nobody has invented an electronic AI running on say a pocketPC device which could be used in an emergency? Could be combined with moving map software.....You can get cheap electric gyro's for model aircraft which would be good enough to provide the attitude info ....?

Cheers
EA:)

[skydriller]

Englishal..

Not that I have even seen one, let alone have one and used it, but doesnt the New Garmin 196 GPS have a panel display?

Regards, SD..

[Fuji Abound]

Englishal - they have, there are a couple of sytems available for the iPAQ one with a combined gps moving map. Cheap is of course a relative term - around £600 for the electronic AI, but then it is completely independent of the aircraft systems so pretty good for backup purposes.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Englishal,

A system was reviewed recently in one of the French GA magazines (Aviasport or Aviation et Pilote.... can't remember which). It consisted of a small "black box" and a Compaq PDA. The box had to be attached to the floor as close as possible to the centre of the aircraft. It was very small and light, and contained gyros of some kind.

The PDA then became a backup attitude indicator.

From what I recall, the results were a bit mixed. Most of the time it worked very well. Once or twice it decided it was banking when it wasn't....

The manufacturer reckoned the bugs would be fixed easily (of course!), and they plan to sell the system for the equivalent of a few hundred pounds.

[Fly Stimulator]

It's called the PCEFIS and it was reviewed in the August issue of Aviation et Pilote. It has been mentioned, though I don't think reviewed, in some of the UK mags too.


As Aerobatic Flyer says, the Aviation et Pilote review found that the unit did get confused after a series of 60 degree banked climbing and descending turns.

I had a play around with one (on the ground only) in France during the summer. It seemed to work well. The display on the PDA was very clear, and it responded instantly to any change in attitude of the control unit box. Good integration with GPS data too, so you get navigation as well as attitude info on the same screen.

It seemed like a nice bit of kit, but I think that the UK agents want about £2,000 for it, and that's a few too many flying hours-worth for me!

The US manufacturer's web site is here (http://www.pcflightsystems.com/pcefis.html) for anyone who wants details.

[formationfoto]

I guess this is a reasonable opportunity to argue that the question is wrong!. Its not a matter of the rating held but the experience gained.

I now regularly fly in IMC for quite lengthy periods and hardly even notice I have transitioned from VMC to IMC as it has become automatic.

I quite like having backup instruments but basic partial panel flying is worth practicing for the event when everything goes pear shaped.

Once the experience is there the danger and fright capacity reduces - a bit!

[slim_slag]

I always take a hand held, battery GPS with me. This will allow us to cope with electrical or vacuum or pitot/static failure reasonably well. It would also help greatly if we ever (heaven forbid) lost both electrics and vacuum.

Hand held GPS are just wonderful for situational awareness when flying IMC, but how would it help if you lost all your gyros? If you lose all your gyros, there is cloud to the deck and all you have is a hand held GPS you have to accept you are likely going to die. If I lost all my gyros in IMC I'd try to get into a spin and hope I could recover if I broke out.

That PCEFIS is neat.

[drauk]

formationfoto:

Sorry if you think my question is "wrong". Not sure what can be right or wrong about asking how people feel about a particular thing. I understand that it is a question of experience, but I was asking about something I'd read which stated that some pilots refuse to fly IMC Solo without an AP, no matter how much experience they have. Anyway, I take it that you personally are happy to do so.

various people talking about backup AI's:

www.anywheremap.com (http://www.anywheremap.com) also make an AI add-on for handheld PC's. It can be integrated with their moving map software. In fact, it is so much like what englishal mentions, the sceptical might think that he is promoting said product and wanted someone else to mention it so as not to fall foul of forum regulations! I've used their moving map software and like many aspects of it, but the gyro bit isn't shipping yet I believe.

skydriller:

The Garmin 196 has a "panel" display. It doesn't have any kind of gyro though, so it is all GPS derived information. It doesn't even try to show an AI, but it does show a turn coordinator (no ball) which is just derived from whether your heading is changing. There is an online review where the reviewer tried to fly on zero panel, just using this device, with a safety pilot. They said it was possible to keep the plane the right way up, but it wasn't very precise.

everyone:

It seems that some people aren't happy in IMC at all with a typical low-end GA plane, regardless of assistance from an auto-pilot or a co-pilot, except mattpilot who can probably fly with his eyes shut. I'm still curious as to how many count on an AP in IMC.

[alphaalpha]

Hi Slim Slag:
I use a GNS 430 for IFR flying and it does make it easy. However, if the electrics go, so does the GNS 430. Hence I take a battery operated hand held GPS along with me to maintain situational awareness & navigation capability.

If you also lose your gyros, the heading screen on your GPS is much, much easier to read than a compass, especially if you are turning and even more so if you are accelerating. Ground speed from the GPS is a subsitute for airspeed if you lose your pitot/static system. So, in the event of vac or electric systems failure, use of the GPS would be SOP for me. Also, if I had to, I would use the altitude information in the GPS, but would be cautious about trying to judge roc/rod information from this.

If you regularly fly IFR and only have one vac system, try using your gps under the hood on a VMC day with a safety pilot sitting next to you. It might just save your life one day.

Having said all this, I still try to keep current on partial panel, using the TC is easier than the GPS to keep wings level, providing the electrics are working.

Perhaps I'm preaching belt & braces, but vac pump failures are quite common, as are electrical systems failures. I've had both, but not at the same time. A few hundred pounds for a gps seems to me to be good insurance. When I can afford a handheld r/t, I'd like that as well. But inability to talk doesn't usually kill you, and there are clear radio fail procedures to guide you.

mattpilot:
I really thought it was a wind-up. You were very, very lucky.

[spittingimage]

This thread set me thinking as I seem to detect a worrying and subtly casual attitude to flying out of sight of the surface in some responses. If I have mis-interpreted, then in PPRnNe tradition I am sure someone will admonish me.

1. If you get a vacuum or electrical failure in IMC and you do not have a backup source of either then, IMHO, that is an emergency. You need to tell someone fast and land as soon as possible, with all the monitoring and assistance you can muster. To do otherwise is certainly dicing with possible disaster.

2. Similarly, if you plan to fly or reasonably expect to fly in IMC (or at night) do not accept an aircraft with either power source in unserviceable condition. This is what pre-flight checks are for.

A few years back there was fatal accident where the pilot took off in a C15X with a known unserviceable turn coordinator and ended up (unintentionally) in IMC at night and then lost his only vacuum pump ...

3. There is nothing particularly difficult with flying in IMC if you have the appropriate training and experience, but you do have radar coverage don't you ? I understand there has never been a midair collision in IMC in UK airspace. We need to keep it that way.

[slim_slag]

Hi alpha,

I know where you are coming from by using the GPS to keep the wings level, and if you are lucky/practiced I guess it could work, but I still think you are more likely to end up in a spiral dive. Then you are SOL.

I have tried keeping straight and level under the hood with only a GPS and I eventually lost it. As you say, it might come in useful one day, so I shall go back and practice harder :)

[yawningdog]

There is a school of thought that suggests you fly partial panel as your primary scan.

Check out : http://www.avweb.com/articles/cp_ifr/index.html

There's sense in it.

[englishal]

the sceptical might think that he is promoting said product and wanted someone else to mention it so as not to fall foul of forum regulations

I'm not, honest..... I didn't know anyone made a backup AI type of thing. It is something I was thinking about after reading this post and updating my pocketPC moving map GPS database.

(looking at the prices though, maybe I should start knocking these gadgets out :D )

Cheers
EA;)

[Fred]

In case, drauk, you are still interested in collecting opinions I also fly very regularly in IMC in a four-seater single, on my IMC rating with around 300 hours. Although it would be nice to have a co-pilot for extra safety, none of the people I fly with are pilots so that’s not possible but it doesn’t bother me too much. With our great British weather I find I am often in IMC for two hours at a time or more and am now virtually indifferent to conditions. You also get an RAS from many units which do not normally participate in LARS. However I do have gyro-failure paranoia and would certainly not consider myself the world’s greatest instrument pilot, so:-

1. I really do practice partial panel.

2. I have a fairly serious bit of GPS kit which would, I think, make a partial-panel recovery to VMC more manageable. It’s IFR-certified in the US and constantly monitors the integrity of the GPS signal. As a bonus it has thousands of published instrument approaches in the database which can be used supplementally to monitor (but not to fly!) the approaches for extra redundancy.

3. I always fly between VORs and NDBs so I never lose situational awareness if the GPS signal goes (which has happened more than once).

4. I watch the AI, TC and track (heading) indicator on the GPS like a hawk making sure that all three are consistent.

5. I let the AP do a lot of the work – it can be slaved to either the VOR- or GPS-receivers.

6. I have taken considerable trouble to read the AP handbook several times. Understanding how it works and how it would respond to AI and/or DI failure is absolutely essential.

7. If I lost the AI I would not fly on partial panel for a second longer than necessary but declare an emergency and fly to wherever I thought was the nearest VMC, no matter in which direction, including up into class A (with a clearance) if necessary.

[Julian]

Everyone should have a look at GPS, even if you only take a handheld up with you for situational awareness. I have taken Navbox Pro up with me and hooked the GPS upto my laptop and is absolutely brilliant!

Fly the VOR and see where you are when in the cloud, my view is you should use everything availiable to you to reduce your pilot workload and let you fly the plane. I have seen more than one post on here from guys saying they prefer to navigate by 'dead reckoning' by why???? Yeah learn it and be able to do it but why pick the hardest form of nav when you have so many more and much easier open to you? GPS is an excellent one and if you have a panel mounted IFR certified GPS then all the better, I have flown a few approaches using them, give em a go!

[bookworm]

There is a school of thought that suggests you fly partial panel as your primary scan.

Check out : http://www.avweb.com/articles/cp_ifr/index.html

There's sense in it.


yawningdog

The article you quote encourages quite the opposite -- in a nutshell, if you have an AI, why not use it to fly better?

The problem is that instrument flying on a docile trainer without an AI (whether it failed or you just ignore it) is relatively easy. The faster and more slippery the aircraft, the more difficult it becomes.

I think for me the answer to the original question depends on circumstances. Two hours of bumpy IMC without an AP is certainly possible, but the concentration it requires and the toll it takes in fatigue gives you less mental capacity for the big picture, and thus increases the overall risk of the flight. It may remain within acceptable limits, or it may not. I can see circumstances in which I might well decline.