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Eastwest Loco
13th Oct 2002, 04:40
Air Paradise has been dealt a huge pre-startup blow by a vicious terrorist attack on the Sari Club on Jalan Legian in Kuta Bali.

The death toll is now at 150 and QF are scheduling extra flights to evac Aussies.

The Sari Club is one of my favourite (and most other aussies as well) watering holes.

What in hell is happening to our world?? If anyone had any doubts, now seems a good time to reduce a few nations to smoking holes in the sand.

This is not a drill.

My support goes out wholeheartedly to those who have lost loved ones in this attrocity, and also to the wonderful Balinese people who will suffer very badly through no fault of their own.

Selamat jalan Bali - blessings on your journey.

EWL

U2
13th Oct 2002, 04:46
Is this really the place to discuss such a non-aviation topic.

U2

Buster Hyman
13th Oct 2002, 05:03
Considering some people are putting a great deal of time & effort into establishing a new airline to Bali, I think it is an appropriate place. (Anyway, Woomera will have the final say!)

AN provided a considerable amount of seats to DPS & the void was there to be filled.

Sadly, if these sorts of attrocities continue, the only void will be on aircraft heading up there.

Indeed, what the hell is happening EWL. I hear there was a bomb set off in Helsinki as well!

My condolences to all... :(

Eastwest Loco
13th Oct 2002, 05:40
Thank you Buster.

U2

Bali is a port frequented by many Aussies and overnighting aircrew - and a major tourist destination.

It is quite possible that overnighting QF crew were there and the Sari Club is or was one of the usual haunts of any Aussie.

Woomera will indeed have the final say, but I do not feel in the least wrong in posting this here.

I do think also that anything that affects a new carrier my just be pertinent to our airline world.

I received a heads up from a friend who is a full bird colonel in the USMC air wing 2 months ago that Al Quaeda was setting up training bases in Indo and that all were advised not to take R and R in Indo under any circumstances.

Quiksilver were advised by me and Surfing Australia of the potential danger and the Quiksilver Pro at G Land was shelved.

Scary times.

I just hope Air Paradise and Barry Hess and his crew can weather this storm.

Best all

EWL

*Lancer*
13th Oct 2002, 07:09
Considering that of the 182 odd people that lost their lives in Bali last night many of them will be australians, I think it's disgraceful the first comment made on this thread related to Air Paradise's efforts. There are larger issues. :eek:

Condolences to all those who are caught up in the mess.

I've been told the QF crew weren't there and have been turned around... hopefully that was correct information, and they were lucky.

Lancer

#1AHRS
13th Oct 2002, 08:00
I just spent nearly 5 months living (and flying) in Jakarta with Denpasar being one of the destinations. It saddens me deeply that an attack has happened in this country as I have come to like and respect the Indonesion people. My condolances to the family and friends of those that were killed. Recently ferried a Dash 8 from Jakarta to Amman (Jordan) it was a standard tank model so many stops were required and the route we flew certainly opened my eyes. Jakarta-Medan took us over Aceh (War # 1) then onto Phuket with a delay to get our clearance into Myanmar (formerly Burma) because they had been shelling positions in Thailand (War # 2), from Myanmar to Kaolkata, Delhi to Karachi requiring a special clearance to fly from India to Pakistan (yep you guessed it, War # 3) From Karachi through Muscat, Rhiyad to Amman we were challenged by American forces as we flew past Iraq (War # 4 brewing there) and on arrival we delivered the aircraft back to the origional ownwers, Palestinian Airlines, who are now based in Marka, Jordan because thier origional base, Gaza, has been bombed out (Well I guess that War # 5 was starting to get my attention). There are certainly some parts of the world that are very unsettled and that could pose delays and even hazards to aviation (forum relevence there). As long as there are those among us have the superior attitude that we should just "reduce a few nations to a smoking hole in the ground" instead of perhaps looking at our own foriegn policies then this unrest will probably continue and possibly even get worse.

Eastwest Loco
13th Oct 2002, 08:30
Lancer - my first thoughts are and will always be for those killed and their families. On a percentage of population basis this is as bad for Australia as September 11. The Air Paradise thread is a natural progression and a logical consequence. The fact that it was mentioned does not make it less true or in any way lessen the massive hurt that this attack has caused. A fact is a fact Lance.

1AHRS - I do not feel it is a "superior attiude" at all mate. It has come to the point where the only way reasonable people can feel safe travelling the world is to cauterise the problems. Reasoned approaches have and will never succeed as us westerners are viewed as infidels and a subspecies by the radical factions of Islam and it is pointless even sitting down to talk with them. Look at Arafat - says one thing - does another.

Just when oh when does the regular run of the mill Aussie Christian get a right to an opinion. Maybe it is time for us to all develop unreasonable sets of demands.

I do however agree that the Indonesians are a wonderful race of people, the Balinese even more so and it is very sad that this travesty was committed on their soil.


EWL

Cypher
13th Oct 2002, 08:58
EWL..

Feel the same way as you do.. BUT could you imagine the uproar if someone blew up Mecca..

There must be a better way..

:(

Wirraway
13th Oct 2002, 09:09
CNN

Extra flights to ferry home tourists
Sunday, October 13, 2002 Posted: 4:08 AM EDT (0808 GMT)

SYDNEY, Australia -- Airline Qantas is sending extra flights to the Indonesian island of Bali to help bring back Australian holiday makers after Saturday's explosions.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said Sunday the extra flights would be able to bring more than 1,000 people back to Australia.

Three extra flights will leave over the next 24 hours, the first departing Sydney at 5 p.m. Sunday local time, followed by another at 1 a.m. and 9.am. on Monday.

The Boeing 747 and two Boeing 767s will not be taking any passengers to Bali, other than extra Qantas staff to assist with the processing of those wanting to leave, a Qantas medical team, medical vounteers and dozens of media.

Dixon said there was a "clamor" of people wanting to leave, and that even more flights would be considered if required.

"We will be able to move out well over 1,000 people," Dixon told media.

The special flights are in addition to the 13 return Qantas services that operate directly to Denpasar each week from Australia.

Dixon said Qantas was continuing to work closely with the relevant Australian and Indonesian Government authorities and would put on additional aircraft for Bali services if they were required.

Bali is an extremely popular tourist destinations with Australians because of its closeness and the low valued of the Indonesian rupiah compared with the Australian dollar.

Calm call
Dixon said Qantas would be primarily concentrating on flying its own customers out of Bali but would consider taking out other nationalities in special circumstances.

Qantas customers with a return ticket to Australia will be able to travel on the special additional services at no extra cost.

Other flights to Bali from Australia are continuing as normal, but the government has warned Australians to defer all travel to the island until further notice.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade advises Australians to stay in their hotels, avoid public places and call home and advise families of their wellbeing.

It also advises people to stay calm while authorities assess the situation.

The Australian embassy in Jakarta are flying extra staff to the Australian consulate in Denpasar to assist with the tragedy.

The Australian consulate is also responsible for assisting Canadians in Bali as well.

Eastwest Loco
13th Oct 2002, 09:59
If only there was a better way Cypher.

I am sure we all wish it, but the better way is sliding beyond our grasp.

EWL

3 Holer
13th Oct 2002, 10:53
Muslims are not the problem here and neither is Islam. If we are to believe that Sept 11th and the recent Sari Club car bombing is all in the name of Allah we are being very gullible.

These acts of terror are carried out by homicidal maniacs with no more religious conviction than Julian Knight and Charles Manson. The hunting down and destruction of such terrorist groups is the requirement, NOT to reduce a few nations to smoking holes in the sand.


It is easy to get emotional when one sees our countrymen getting murdered but we have to be careful who we point the finger at. There is a new world order out there these days and we all have to be vigilant.

Eastwest Loco
13th Oct 2002, 11:13
3 Holer

Your post is totally correct and I apologise for the outburst. one wonders however how one seperates the disease from the symptom.

The sari club was and will always be one of my favourite haunts in Bali and this has really brought these idiot's fanatical plans home to roost.

If these Muslim zealots choose to destroy so many lives, and in the process destroy the lives of God knows how many hard working underpaid Balinese, they obviously have absolutely no common decency. The only problem with cauterising the bad element is where does one stop.

The only way to be sure the threat is gone is to take the lot out, and that is getting back to Nazi theorums.

We are in a no win area here.

EWL

ferris
13th Oct 2002, 11:27
3 Holer- well said.

I understand the emotion now running, but if people take up the attitude of EWL, the terrorists have succeeded. It is the purpose of these people to promote hatred, racsism and religious emnity. Most Muslims (that I have contact with anyway) are disgusted by this barbarism. These acts are against the teachings of their faith.

Irrationality is not the cure. If anything, it is the cause. Whilst short-term our thoughts are with those who suffered first-hand, who suffers long-term? Australians too scared to travel and battling hatred and xenophobia, Balinese (mostly non-muslims), and Muslims worldwide (who suffer the effects of the emnity created).

Sad times.

Wonderworld
13th Oct 2002, 11:29
Good old Qantas to the rescue once again.............

Eastwest Loco
13th Oct 2002, 11:31
ferris - I fully agree with you, but what on earth do we do from here? We cannot go on for the rest of our lives being random targets.

I guess if we knew we would be world leaders ourselves.

EWL

Wonderworld - The rat has had many dengrators (including myself) over the past year, but it is a good thing to see that they still have enough culture in the system to react in a proper manner to a catastrophy such as this.

Well done Rat!

A hint of your roots still exists.

EWL

ferris
13th Oct 2002, 11:42
EWL, I think that is the challenge.

Accept that you ARE a random target (Washington sniper, Timothy McVeigh etc.) and try and live your life in a positive way.

Or: Succumb to the hatred, bunker down and prepare for war.

There are no easy answers.

And yes, good on QF for taking some positive action.

blueloo
13th Oct 2002, 12:01
Did anyone notice on the TV interview with Dixon about QF's additional Bali flights, that QANTAS is coming to help its Customers . Whereas in the past QF would come to rescue Australians.......

Maybe its just semantics or being picky, but it seems to be inline with the latest thinking that airlines don't carry passengers anymore they carry customers......


(And a few other people watching the interview made the same comment)

Anyway I guess its really all a bit trivial compared to the main issue at hand.

Wirraway
13th Oct 2002, 13:45
AAP 21:30 (AEST)

Major air evacuation from Bali
By Shane Wright and Rod McGuirk
October 13, 2002

A MAJOR air evacuation of Australians injured in the Bali terror attack has started with mainland hospitals on standby for critically ill patients.

One of four RAAF C-130 Hercules had landed in Bali to airlift up to 30 people to Darwin.

The other three were to airlift the same number of people at a time in a bid to relieve pressure on Bali's hospital system.

A P3C, which was on its way to Bali to deploy Australian Federal Police and diplomatic staff, was also to be used to bring less seriously injured people back to local hospitals.

Seven Australians have been confirmed dead and more than 110 injured in the attacks on two nightclubs in Bali.

The Hercules have seven-member medical teams onboard, including surgeons and nurses, who will decide which patients come back to Australia.

Each plane will land and take onboard patients before immediately returning to Darwin.

The first of the Hercules carrying casualties was expected to arrive in Darwin, the closest Australian capital to Bali, around midnight CST (0030 AEST).

"All 30 patients have burns," a defence spokesman said.

Darwin hospital administrator Len Notaras estimated 60 seriously injured victims could be accommodated in the 300-bed hospital and the neighbouring private hospital.

He also expected the public hospital's mortuary would become a staging point for the bodies of Australian casualties.

"We can fairly comfortably take 40, 50, perhaps 60 or so quite seriously injured patients," Dr Notaras said.

Two wards had been cleared and the old cafeteria had become an assessment room.

Elective surgery and outpatient lists had been cancelled tomorrow.

The hospital prepared extra blood supplies and took other measures similar to those enacted in response to violence two years ago in nearby East Timor, the hospital spokeswoman said.

Perth's major teaching hospitals were among those put on standby to take any casualties.

"We're preparing all our major tertiary medical facilities so we have the capacity to look after any patients if the Commonwealth requests that," West Australian Health Department spokeswoman Joanne Godecke said.

Emergency departments, burns units and intensive care units at hospitals including Royal Perth Hospital and Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital were on standby, Ms Godecke said.

Three members of the Westpac LifeSaver Helicopter Rescue Service in Sydney, and six members of NSW Health including members of the NRMA CareFlight medical service, are also headed to Bali to assist medical authorities.

Aboard the P3C will be a federal police and ASIO investigation team.

The team includes forensic and investigative officers who are experts in victim identification and post-bomb blast investigation.

AAP

gaunty
13th Oct 2002, 13:52
Make absolutely no mistake, the bombing was aimed directly at Australians.

Certain parts of the Indon military were aware that this was coming and they have not forgiven our involvement in East Timor.
Megawati may be the President but she does not have the real power.

Many in the diplomatic area including the Singaporeans warned about it and as EWL said many other countries citizens were told not to go there.

Australians are very very naive about such things and hopefully they will wake up and now understand that these guys play for keeps and we are the same target as all the other western nations.

A bunch of 7 fresh young Aussie kids from the local footy team who hadn't been in town a couple of hours, go to the pub for some well earned fun, are now missing, presumed dead, amongst the 187 plus.

I was listening to some young things, being interviewed at Perth airport this morning prior to boarding their Bali flight and after being advised of the extent of the carnage.
Their main concern seem to be that they had already paid for their package and were going rather than lose it, with one who had been before and knew where the Bounty Hotel was in relation to the Sari, expressing the hope that the packager had arranged some alternative accomodation.:rolleyes:

Only 30 odd of the 300 traveling chose not to go. :eek: One unbelievable couple doing the "well if your numbers up routine".
Well I'm here to tell you they will be the same people to scream for help from the Govt and expect our boys to go save them.

Lets stop the Politically Correct bulls hit pussy footing around with "the terrorists have succeeded if we ...." and all of the rest of that naive feel good crap.
Listen to Richard Butler when he says, there is only one thing that they understand and it isn't rational debate about them being naughty and how about being good chaps.

Bush got it right the first time, WW3 started at (I think it was) 8:47am EDT 9/11/2001 and we all sat in our living rooms and watched it live on CNN and discussed it as if it was a good movie around the coffee machine next morning.
He was also right when he said he would chase those responsible and those who harboured them, it's now time for Indonesia to come clean on this.

It was not then nor is now a remote concept and if we try to slide around the Sari bombing without sending a clear and unequivocal message backed up with some real action then God help us all.

Howard has to send a very clear and unequivocal message to Megawati and the military who are hiding behind her in the biggest Muslim community in the world that we will not tolerate this action and that if they don't do something concrete and visible about it we will.

This subject has every thing to do with aviation.

It was aviation that made Bali and all of the gazillion dollars the tourist industry has generated into Indonesia.
Aviation turned Bali with Balinese support into a lucrative local playground.
A local operator observed today that it "looked like he was going to have to go back to growing rice", he has another choice.

So that is now all gone for the monent and DFAT should keep the country off the "safe" list until it is demonstrated by the Indon Govt that they are seriously doing something.

Air Paradise should recognise the First rule in business.
The first loss is always the best loss. Stop.
Its no longer about whether Barry Hesse has a job or not.
Over whose dead bodies.?
The owner made his dollars out of Bali so he can go and sort it out with his Government.
And unless I'm mistaken most of the properties in Bali are owned by the military and the Indonesian elite.
So if common decency doesn't work for them, then a good hard and sustained kicking in the financial groin certainly will.

Wake up Australia, the good cheap times are on hold for the forseeable future, give the dead your utmost respect and stay well away until they show them respect by producing the perpetrators, they know who they are, and dealing with them.

The money is far better spent in Australia looking after Australians, rather than further enriching an already hopelessly corrupt regime.
We have become soft and selfish and a bunch of Aussies on holidays have learned that lesson the hard way.
Lets hope we don't just talk about it round the coffee machine again while we plan our next holiday there.

Wirraway
13th Oct 2002, 14:09
ABC News Online

Hospitals stretched

It is feared of the injured many may die because the hospitals do not have enough pain killers or blood to give them proper treatment.

Police say the dead included nationals from Australia, Britain, France, Germany, New Zealand, Canada and Sweden, most of whom were in a club in the Kuta Beach area.

Most of the bodies retrieved from the nightclubs have been taken to the Sanga Hospital, near the Balinese capital of Denpasar.

But it is clear the hospital, like others in Bali, is ill equipped to deal with the magnitude of the human disaster.

Bodies are simply piled along the corridors as officials try to start the grim task of identification.

Westerners who know the health system fear many who suffered burns in the blasts may die because the hospitals do not have enough pain killers, scalpels, gloves or blood to give them proper treatment.

Maria Jakes, who runs a knitwear company in Bali, has spent the day trying to help provide bandages.

"We've got people that have got 90-degree burns all over their body," she said.

"There's no Burns Unit in Bali. They're dying basically because there's nothing to do."

Ian White, who is a volunteer working at Sanga Hospital, is trying to make a list of the missing.

"It's just pandemonium out of control here, it's just bedlam and mayhem," he said.

"I'm actually, since early this morning, been putting a data base together of the missing persons and well, the injured and where they are and what's happened and we're trying to compile it right now and trying to put all the information together."

A volunteer at one hospital, Allison Chester, says she thinks the death toll will rise because medical staff are completely overwhelmed.

"People are very, very badly burned here and we badly need equipment," she said.

"We need medicine, we need pethadine, we need bandages, we need linens.

"The staff are doing whatever they can here but they don't have enough help, Australian doctors and doctors from Europe here have been given permission to operate."

Buster Hyman
13th Oct 2002, 14:16
Unfortunately, Howard will not pull out the big stick to Indonesia...because we aint got one! The usual rhetoric will ensue (and rightly so), but in the end, there's a bluddy lot of them compared to us!

The political situation is the same as that faced by Whitlam when E. Timor was invaded. We can waive the finger at them, but that's about it. Now, I've always thought that we needed a US military base in the top end. That way, we can say all we want, knowing full well that anyone we tick off will have to go past the Yanks first!

Lets all remember a point well made earlier. These are FANATICS/LUNATICS call them what you will, but they are hiding behind their faith. Too many good people of their faith out there who don't deserve such animosity. Remember, there's a little island off the coast of the UK that has a similar problem up north!

As for Barry Hess. I wish you well & anyone else up there that had settled in what I believed to be an idyllic place. You're always welcome back home.

Ozgrade3
13th Oct 2002, 14:18
Here here Gaunty.

Its well time that we stop fooling ourselves into believing that because we play fair, play by the rules, level playingfield etc etc and all that other feel good crap, that others will follow suit. Bombing inocent civilians is not playing fair.

Lets get serious, we have a strong and capable fleet of F111's, F18's. When we find out who did this, lets use them for what they were designed for. Its time that we also taught the Indo militry brass a lesson or two, about who has the real power in this region. US. It was proved in WW2 that one of our soldiers,saliors or airmen is worth 50 of theirs and will be proved again.

These cowards who did this despise our way of life, the fact that we have freedom, that our women have equal standing in our society as men. That we can worship our godof choice what ever it is in the way we choose. This is the freedom they want to take away from us.

Once again, the guys and girls from QF will swing into action and show the world what aussies can do in a crisis, just like they did on 9/11 in LAX, other disasters and going back to cyclone tracey in 74. As we speak, once again QF staff are going beyond the call duty in exceptionally trying circumstances and are doing us proud.

Bombs going off, snipers in the suburbs..................what is this world comming to.................this is not the world I grew up in.

God bless the unfortunates who perished in Bali.

Wirraway
13th Oct 2002, 14:34
OzGrade3

Its not the world I grew up in either, Gaunty, I think it will take
another 24hrs before it dawns on the average Aussie just
what has gone down here. Geez, after the dia rapes in SYD
recently I,m starting to feel like I live in some foreign country.

The Australian death toll according to sky news could be as
high as 130 if this does not wake the average Aussie up, what
hope have we got?.

Wirraway

gaunty
13th Oct 2002, 15:04
Wirraway

Thanks for the ABC take on the hospitals and lack of basic medical facilities.
mrs gaunty who is a medical professional and I were talking about it over dinner.
She is going to have to rearrange some of her op suite schedules as her "boys", the plastics, orthopods and others are going to be busy.

What a lot of Aussies don't understand is that the final death toll will be much higher than it should have been as a result of the lack of even the most basic western post accident medical treatment.

We have enjoyed the wonderful First Class hotels, but the danger of their Third World medical system was always lurking. It was always a fools paradise in that respect.

The severe burns victims are at extreme risk and it will be a miracle for those who survive the transfer, when every minute is crucial.

Simple trauma that would be routine in Oz, in Bali becomes seriously dangerous.

Major trauma that would challenge Oz IC, will most likely be fatal.

We can be confident though, that our superb RAAF people with competent triage will be able to save those that can be.

They will, however, need all the luck they can get.

QF are doing a fantastic job and there was even a report of an OZ private jet turning up with aid and being made available for medical transfer, no fanfare, just a simple "how can we help".

hoss
13th Oct 2002, 15:17
'May they Rest in Peace'.


Gaunty and Ozgrade3: I agree.

Now, 3 Holer I have a few questions for you. Your quote,

"muslims are not the problem here and neither is islam"

Are you trying to tell us that al-qaida has no islamic connections or influence?
Are you trying to tell us that Indonesia is not the most populous muslim nation in the world?
Are you trying to tell us that there are no al-qadia operatives in Indonesia? (or Australia for that matter)
Are you trying to tell us that this doesnt co-incide with the second anniversary of the al-qadia linked attack on USS Cole off Yemen?
Are you trying to tell us that the US Embassy in Jakarta wasn't evacuated very recently and a car exploded nearby with one man killed?
Are you trying to tell us that Authorities in Malaysia and Singapore alleged that members of jemaah islamiyah(terrorists)are seeking to set up a islamic state in South East Asia and are presently based in Indonesia?
Are you trying to tell us that there is a difference between muslims and islam and if so that their beliefs aren't founded from the koran?
Are you aware that the koran instructs muslims "that if they can't convert someone to islam you may as well kill that person for they are nothing"

I believe this attack has islamic origins and I am certain this will be revealed soon.

Regards Hoss :mad:

OhBehave
13th Oct 2002, 16:29
There is very little info about what happened in Bali yet. Dont you guys think its a little early to go pointing fingers at people of various faiths.

Remember, our's is one of the few governments around the world foolish enough to follow GW Bush into action in the middle east. Howard lied to us about the boat people and if required will lie to us about the perpertrators of this attack in Bali. Be carefull about what you read and who tells you the info.

Dont forget, Timothy McVeigh was an Arab for a couple days following the Oak city bombing.

Dont jump to conclusions.

Wizofoz
13th Oct 2002, 16:34
I consider myself pretty moderate in most things BUT...

Just after Sept 11 an Aussie news crew went to a predominantly Muslim Sydney Suburb and asked the first veiled, teenaged girl what she thought of Bin Laden...

"I think he's a Hero!" she said...

Shortly there after a well known representative of the Muslim community appeared to hose down the situation and assure us all that they were really our friends.

People who consider me a worthless dog worthy only of a fiery fate in hell because I don't think the same way as them (And I'm not talking about '89ers here, though it's much the same mentality!!) are being welcomed in my country.

Moderation is a fine thing...In Moderation!!!

Wirraway
13th Oct 2002, 18:14
Just few extracts from this mornings papers

"Melbourne Age"

'Late last night, the unofficial death toll from the attack on two crowded nightclubs in the tourist hub of Kuta had climbed to 187, while local authorities struggled with inadequate medical facilities to care for more than 300 injured.'

'An emotional Prime Minister John Howard warned the nation to be prepared for a high Australian death toll from the world's biggest terrorist outrage since the September 11 attacks.'

'It appears likely the attack will result in the greatest single loss of Australian lives overseas during peacetime.'

'Fears of a massive Australian death toll grew after hospital authorities estimated that 75 per cent of the injured were Australian. Eight Australians had been confirmed dead by last night.'

'Other Australians were joining a mass exodus from the holiday island, with Qantas scheduling special flights to evacuate tourists and the Federal Government issuing a blanket warning against any travel to Bali.'

'Late yesterday, authorities in the Balinese capital, Denpasar, listed 187 dead with 309 injured. The dead reportedly included Australians, Indonesians, Americans, Britons, Germans, Swedes, Swiss, Italians and Canadians.'

'The biggest terrorist attack involving Australians comes after months of US criticism of Jakarta for not taking seriously the threat of international terrorist groups, particularly al Qaeda, which it says are working inside Indonesia.'
-----------------------------
'He couldn't talk and didn't want to give his surname. "Just Michael will do," he muttered, his voice breaking. Sitting a short distance away from him in his Bali hotel room were four young girls, all from Sydney but all from different families. The eldest was 15, two were 14 and the fourth, just 12 years old. Last night they still didn't know whether their parents were dead after the murderous explosions that ripped through two nightclubs on the popular Kuta Beach strip.'

'Michael and his mate, both from Perth, had been drinking at a bar three doors from the Sari when the explosion ripped through the nightclub. "We just ran on to the street and tried to do what we could but it was carnage, sheer bloody carnage," Michael said last night.

"Then we saw the girls, one after the other, just wandering around in shock and we grabbed them and brought them back to our hotel to try and help them." One of the girls had told him she was on the dance floor when the club erupted into flames and had had to crawl over dead bodies to get out.

"We're just trying to help these poor little girls to find their mums and dads, but it doesn't look real good at the moment," Michael said.'
----------------------------------
Sue McKerrow and her husband, Ron, were going to bed when they heard the explosion. When they opened the door to their room, their daughter Kim, 23, and her friend Linley Huguenan, 22, were standing in the doorway hysterical, their faces covered in blood, their hair burnt. They'd been in the Padi bar next door to the Sari when the bomb went off. Someone had given them a ride back to the hotel on a motor bike.

Mrs McKerrow said her daughter and friend suffered burns to about 35 per cent of their bodies as well as horrific shrapnel wounds. "When I opened the door I nearly died," Mrs McKerrow, from The Basin, said by phone from the hotel.

The McKerrows attempted to get the two badly injured women treatment at Bali's only public hospital in Denpasar but were turned away because it was full. They were sent to an army hospital but again had to leave because, Mrs McKerrow said, "there were no drugs, no linen, nothing, it was a nightmare".

Eventually the two women were treated at the International Medical Clinic.

"We brought Kim back to the hotel where an American trainee doctor has been caring for her until we can get her on a Hercules and back to an Australian hospital," she said. She described the scene in Bali as "horror, pure and utter horror".
-----------------------------------
""We just kept running into people with body parts missing. Taxis would not take people with blood on them. They wanted $50 to take you out of there."
------------------------------------

The Australian Government had been slow to take seriously the threat of terrorism in South-East Asia, according to terrorism expert and author Rohan Gunaratna.

Mr Gunaratna said attacks would occur on Australia's shores unless terrorist groups in the region were destroyed.

"I believe the Australian Government should have taken more action to protect Australian interests both in Australia and overseas, especially after a bomb exploded in Indonesia inside the Australian international school last year," Mr Gunaratna, based in Singapore, told ABC radio.

Mr Gunaratna claimed Australians were among the targets in the Bali bomb blast because of Australia's high profile in the campaign to defeat terrorism.

But he said Australia's involvement in the war on terror was necessary because "all nations must join hands to fight terrorists".

Mr Gunaratna, the author of Inside al Qaeda: Global Network of Terror, said the Bali blast was likely to be the work of Jemaah Islamiah.
--------------------------------------------
"The Australian"

IT is 20 hours after the bomb blast that destroyed Paul Haines's holiday and the 18-year-old has wandered in to the Sanglah Denpasar hospital, the island's finest. The blisters on his face from burns sustained in the blast the night before are dripping with ooze.

He holds up his hands to indicate despair, oblivious to the fact that they are swollen with blisters the size of golf balls, and inadvertently catches some of the drops falling like tears from his face. The Perth welder has spent the night, and day, being sent from one hospital to another. He's lost count of the number he's been to, but it's a fair bet it is all of Bali's nine, and he is yet to receive a bandage, let alone a painkiller. At this point, 7pm, all he wants is a drink of water, and a flight home.

"You're in good nick, mate," says one of the dozens of volunteers that have been drawn from the Bali playground to the hospitals. "That's why no one's helping you. We've just got a couple of gruesome things to do first, and then we'll come back for you."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
These are just a few extracts from 2 papers of this disgusting
act, my condolances to all familys involved.

Wirraway

Cypher
13th Oct 2002, 23:01
Hoss....

Where in the Koran does it say to slay unbelievers for they are nothing?
:eek:

Just curious thats all...

#1AHRS
13th Oct 2002, 23:22
Lets get serious, we have a strong and capable fleet of F111's, F18's. When we find out who did this, lets use them for what they were designed for Ahh Err I thought that Australia had a Defence Force not a Vigilante Force. Lets keep it sensible and real here and lets wait untill we know who did it before we start sounding off about Indonesia and Muslims as all we know for sure at this moment is that it happened on Indonesian soil. With the above quoted attitude along with the smoking holes in the ground theory I ask the question that in retaliation to the loss of 100 or so Australian lives how many Innocent Indonesion lives (or others) need to be sacraficed to make Australians feel secure again? Wouldn't it be better to find the organizations and individuals who did this terrible act and put them to trial rather than just blindly go to war which will certainly lose more Australian lives. Remember it is a minority that is making itself heard here and pointing the finger to the majority in retaliation is exactly what the minority wants!

Chimbu chuckles
13th Oct 2002, 23:46
What people are saying about the appalling level of medical care available in Bali is no understatement, it's no better in most every other part of Indonesia. I've medivaced LOTS of people from Bali and the hospitals there are truly bad.

My thoughts are with the victims. How many children will be orphaned or lose a dad or mum...not all the revellers in Bali are teens or 20 somethings.

It is well and truly time we as a nation stop the PC pussyfooting and start demanding accountability in our near neighbours.

It will not surprise me AT ALL when they find sections of the Indonesian Military were not only aware of this before it happened but were directly involved.

The military in Indonesia is all pervasive, they run everything...including the Govt of Indonesia.

When Australia finds out who did this it should result in a strike by our F111s....if that means we bomb the Indon Military HQ in Jakarta so be it!!!

Give me the keys to an F111 and I'll do it myself:mad:

Chuck.

Gnadenburg
14th Oct 2002, 00:08
Ozgrade3

Can I suggest your air campaign against Indonesia be launched from Christmas Island? With a higher sortie rate we will run out of bombs before spare parts- on about day 3!

Fail to see the merit in a big stick response on a crumbling and relatively temperate muslim nation.

I don't think we fought Indonesia in WW2. We fought the Jap's there. Like today, the issue of who was and wasn't on our side amongst the locals not black and white.

Howard's leadership appears strong and sensible.Would only suggest a much more serious defence budget.

Can't understand the Yanks, half-baked effort in Afganistan. Unfinished job on Al Queda but lets go into Iraq.

Now, just like in WW2, our troops, and especially our SAS, belong home and not in the Middle East. Except of course, the SAS in Afganistan, where there is still Al Queda to hunt down.

Awful day for Australia. Sympathies to all.

blueloo
14th Oct 2002, 00:17
Methinks starting a war with Indonesia is not such a bright move......we dont realistically have any substantial defence capabilities to stop them.

With Indonesias population of 220 million odd, even if they swam here, and the sharks got half of them (the sharks being are best defence force), then they lost another 50% in the outback we would still be overrun.

skychaser
14th Oct 2002, 01:15
Some countries live with this horror every day of their lives. They're waiting at a bus stop and get blown up or sitting in a cafe enjoying the afternoon and someone sprays the whole crowd with bullets. Countries have had foreign armies invade and kill their civilians and destroy their homes -look at Vietnam and the countries of World War 2. Australia has been lucky and the generations since WW2, despite Korea, Vietnam Afghanistan have no idea what life is like when a country is at war.Gung ho rhetoric
from people who would contemplate taking this country into a localised war with a country who would overrun us in about a week if they decided to mobilise is just a build up of testosterone and misguided macho postering. Leave this to the politicians who, hopefully, will make the right decisions.
My thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones.
Welcome to the real world, Australia. Coming, ready or not.

Albatross
14th Oct 2002, 01:28
Next time you're in a magazine rack grab the oz printing of the Economist mag. Had a good article on attacking Iraq for not upholding UN resolutions over the past 10 years and what it will or won't achieve. It only angers the half the world that has watched Israel repeatedly defy UN resolutions passed down upon it over the past 30 years as the US has continually spent billions on military aid for Israel. To some out there it doesn't appear like the US is just trying to uphold world order, it goes on about the evils of dictatorships and the need for democracy in Iraq while propping up the one next door in Saudi. I'm not taking sides here but sometimes what's good for the US may not be good for Australia and I know where I'd rather live. Sorry Womera if I've drifted off topic.

Bob Hawke
14th Oct 2002, 02:50
This a wake up call to all Australians, and if there is any comfort than can be drawn from it (and there not much of that at all), is that this devastating event didn't occur on our own home soil.

However it might not be long before some loony group gets the idea to do something similar on our native soil. We have been blessed with one of the most peaceful (but new) nations on earth; shychaser says it all, welcome to the REAL world! Other nations live with potential horror every day.

For those you who wish to condemn Moslems simply for that, then let me point out to you the red neck racist bigotry of some of extremist Christian groups think the same way, and given the opportunity, would do the same thing, to other groups. Halfwit non-educated dipsticks are their common features. They're all the blooody same! If you want to be so simplistic about it, then lets call is the rot of religion, that caused this, not just one faith.

So in my pathetic opinion what is it that causes these problems? Corruption and Education, the former being too much, and the latter being insufficient.

Dr. Mahatir, the PM of Malaysia recently summed it up by saying that it was the “greedy” nations that have caused many of these problems. Immediately you would think that he is referring to countries like the US and UK. Maybe he was, but think about this; the so called “greedy” nations are those that are run by despotic rulers, who are more interested in maintaining the Status quo of their incumbent power dispensing favour and riches upon those that support their regimes. They have in the process ignored their poorest masses, which is the breeding ground for discontent, and what better place to breed religious intolerance.

Which countries have had these traits the most? Indonesia and the Philippines! Where are most of these problems, in the SE Asia region? Ditto! Who has supported these regimes for so long? US, UK, and Australia, directly or indirectly, usually in the interests of trade.

Ultimately we have acquiesced to the past injustices on these people who have been deprived of the right to live in dignity and now the chickens are coming home to roost. It’s the same in the US. Our policies, and that of the US must change in order to prevent this from occurring again.

By going in and blowing up this group and that group is simply reactionary, and I accept that it has a lot to do with grief and anger in the hopelessness of the current situation, by all means vent, but also consider the long term consequences of what you are saying.

Extreme Islam knows one thing. Educate the people. Educate them in only one way, without question, and it works. You take a mass of people with no hope, no future, and you offer them something. Of course they will take it, and they will embrace it. Because they know no other way. The West has yet to learn this lesson. This is the weapon of choice by the extremists, and it should be the weapon of choice of the Western World. It has taken the extremists a generation or two to build up the fervour for this, and it will take the same for other nations to counter such fervour. This and poverty are the reasons we have such problems growing in the world. The extremists want us to react with force. It will only justify their cause further. It’s time for the West to acknowledge the differences and change strategy and policy in dealing with these countries. Just a few thoughts on this.

My condolences to my fellow Australians. May they find peace.

oicur12
14th Oct 2002, 03:08
An English Terrorism 'expert' this morning on CNBC stated 2 things.

1. No evidence AT THIS STAGE suggests a link between Bali and And Bin Ladens's outfit.

2. Some experts are looking at a link between the Australian governments intervention in East Timor as Interfet and the events at Kuta.

The Oz government is implicated in causing misery to a large disenfranchised group of people. Maybe this is payback.

Charlie Foxtrot India
14th Oct 2002, 03:26
Terrorism has been around for hundreds of years, Guy Fawkes was around a long time ago. How many people realise that when they look at fireworks on 5 November they are commemorating "The Gunpowder Plot" and someone who tried to blow up the houses of parliament and very nearly succeeded? (He was a catholic by the way)

Sadly it is not something you can stamp out, there will always be people who can justify this sort of things to themselves and are brainwashed out of any rational human feelings. How can you reason with a suicide bomber?

We all have to learn to live with it and the awful thing is that my first reaction to the news was the sort of numbness that I used to feel growing up in the UK in the seventies and eighties and having to live with the news reports about the atrocities of the IRA, such as bombing babies out of their prams. After a while you just don't feel anything but a sort of hollow sorrow. Australia has been very lucky for a very long time, now it seems the luck has run out.

Condolences to all the families involved whose loved ones have become victim to the policies of the biggest hypocrite of them all, name no names but he's not an Aussie.

Buster Hyman
14th Oct 2002, 04:19
Very true CFI. You could also link it to our own warped view of historical events like Ned Kelly & the racially motivated Eureka stockade!

People who are "respected" by Australians, but were basically criminals. Without going too far off the topic, it annoys me to see Premiers glorifying such past events & scoring points on them.

At the end of the day, there are probably more similarities than differences between us! :(

hmm...
14th Oct 2002, 04:56
Mounting war on Indonesia is a terrible idea!

THEY are not responsible! Seriously people, THINK!!!

The F/A-18 and our **** weak F-111's will only amuse the Indonesians!

The Indonesian air force by all means is not a small one....

gaunty
14th Oct 2002, 05:14
Who said anything about starting a war, just making them understand that we require that they do something more transparently constructive than peddle platitudes.

Brace yourself, because the final Aussie death toll will be in the hundreds.

D.Lamination
14th Oct 2002, 06:02
Gaunty's summation of the situation in his post on page two is highly accurate and his advice on how to respond is pretty spot on too. I suggest a second reading.

Indonesia has been soft on terrorism for a long time and that, coupled with a corrupt government, legal system and army are the root of the problem.

All those fancy international hotels in Bali are owned by government cronies anyway so most dollars you spend in country go straight to the pockets of the people causing the problem.

I do have sympathy for the lower level employees and small business that will suffer because of this - although in today's SMH it was reported that taxi drivers tried to rip off victims of the attack by charging outragoeus sums to take people away from the scene in the immediate aftermath:( :mad:

Gnadenburg
14th Oct 2002, 06:22
hmmm

I think you seriously overestimate their air force.Their spare situation since the Asian crisis has not been good.Their F16s are export model and poorly maintained, all eight of them. The rest is seventies equipment, not updated and again poorly maintained.
Pilot training, corruption etc etc.

I think you may underestimate ours.

Buster

Only the Poms amongst us would think Ned Kelly and Peter Lalor not heroes!


Indonesia is vulnerable and eventually likely to disintegrate. This horrible event probably not the catylst, just a horrible wake up for Australia.

Eurocap
14th Oct 2002, 06:41
There is only one way for you Ockers and Kiwis to deal with this problem. Leave Bali, and in fact the whole of Indonesia, off your list of places to visit.

Talk of attacking the people responsible is a pipedream, totally out of this world. Australia doesn't have the manpower or the resources to deal with this problem and NZ certainly is of no use.

The USA have their hands full with Afganistan and Iraq.

Look after your own back yard. Be vigilant, security concious and be ready for something closer to home as it seems to be heading this way.

Stay away from all muslim countries. It seems that there own governments aren't prepared to protect visitors to their shores.

There are many other destinations to visit with friendlier governments. Take advantage of those and enjoy their hospitality while we can.

It may come in the future that we will not be able to travel as freely as we have in the past.

skychaser
14th Oct 2002, 07:12
Just a sobering thought for some of you.
Indonesia has a defence force of over one million highly trained well equipped regulars that can be mobilised within 24 hours.
All up we have, at a rough guess, 65 thousand. That's Army, airforce, and navy. And if I have erred in that number it will be in over estimating not under estimating our forces. Wonderful our fighters may be but few have seen combat, have never fought on their own soil and had to fight street to street, house to house
or watched their family and friends go without food, clothing, shelter - all those basic things we take for granted that you lose when your country has a war in its backyard. By the time the good old US of A had mobilised a battle fleet in this direction it would be all over. Get real fellers. The only way this situation will be solved is by political & economic pressures and even then they probably won't have the desired effect. But a war with Indonesia - where's my bow and arrow!

ferris
14th Oct 2002, 07:27
Normally I have great respect for your posts, but I must say I am disappointed with your efforts on this thread.

You just don't get it, do you? What do you (and all the others spouting vitriol) think was the purpose of the bombing? If, in fact, purpertrated by al Qaida, or other Islamic terrorists, it was to foster religious hatred.

This is not "politically correct BS". And "naive feelgood crap". Exactly who is being naive? Naive feelgood crap is sending a "clear unequivocal message backed up with some real action". What message? What "real action"? All this talk of sending in the F18's and F111s. To bomb who? The Indon military? The terrorists couldn't hope for a better result. As the US has found, the terrorists are playing at international guerilla warfare- there is no target to bomb, no country to annhiliate. Very frustrating, yes, but a quick, devastating response just can't happen.

And HOSS, you are exactly the person the terrorists are hoping for. Redneck ignorance at it's best.

The US is closer to conquering Vietnam now than they ever were. All those wasted bombs, bullets and lives. When they were 'winning hearts and minds', they should have added wallets.

international hog driver
14th Oct 2002, 08:17
As an ozmate not living in gods country anymore, it is funny how the comments here and in other places are translated and help propel the myth of OZ.

Where I am there are literally millions of people that see oz as a mythical land of peace and freedom, freedom of speech, freedom from persecution, or simply freedom.

After WW2 people came to oz with nothing to start over again, to go to the other side of the planet with no language skills, no support , no nothing means that where you were must have been pretty bad.

I now work in the uncivilised world, were I come home to a guard with an AK47, and get security briefings form European and north American embassy officials.

Australia is seen as the land of milk and honey, where the utilities work, where you don’t need to carry a gun ie paradise.

This myth of paradise also displays naivety in the eyes of the big wide world, everyone here knows East Timor was all about oil and gas, we were able to put a lid on the situation real quick.

Talk of having a few fast movers lob some iron onto the neighbours lawn is like letting your dog crap on their front steps, It amuses the peanut gallery but achieves f…all.

We are now being dragged into the Global war on terrorism. Global war….. nah I don’t think so.

Its time to protect what we have, Tampa may have been a political mess and the do gooders may have their nickers in a knot but it raised awareness to boarder security. Anyone that has worked up north and flown around the coast knows on a good day after the Airforce closes at 1500 on Friday you could move anything into oz at a variety of locations, the only thing stopping this happening is the bad guys incompetence not being able to organise a p1ss-up in a brewery on a good day.

Imagine if what happened in Kuta had happened in Sydney or say the Gold Coast, the only reason it has not is because Kuta was a soft target, the mainland is a hard target and lets keep it that way.

Protect, defend, don’t let them get even close, so that oz is a good place to live, where your kids can play in the street and you can retire and enjoy peace.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Rich-Fine-Green
14th Oct 2002, 10:28
Hmm... & Skychaser;

You guys have given the Indonesian Military far too much credit.

The RAAF's biggest problem with the Indonesian Air Force is running out of ammunition before they're all shot down.

Their equip is old and except for a possible few low spec F16's - is limited to day/good weather intercepts. Not to mention the edge the RAAF have on training.

As for their ground forces, what a joke. There may be 1000K of them but their fundamental role is Internal defence i.e. heavily armed policemen disguised as military. The only real threat is from the Kopassas units, and even then, a lot of their officers trained in Australia so the Australian Military know their tactics.

If they were any good, do you think they would have let E.Timor go so easily - c'mon :rolleyes: .

In any case, talk about facing off against the Indoneasian Military is not realistic.

Any reprisals should be directed against groups/camps of whoever is found to be responsible - even if it happens to be on Indoneasian Soil - so be it. and if the Indoneasian Military get in the way of any such action then it's their bad luck.

Lets not forget the history of the last century and what happens when tyrants and terrorists are allowed to run free. Australia's resolve and the sane world's resolve must not be weakened.

Let's not forget what wonderful free nations we have in Oz & NZ.

Chimbu chuckles
14th Oct 2002, 10:48
So just suppose for a minute that it is Jamal Islam that is responsible for this latest attack on 'Christians'....they are the mob of white dressed Islamic Fundamentalists that have been killing Ambonese Christians by the gross over the last year or so (completely undisturbed by anyone let alone the Indon Military), bombing Nightclubs in Jakarta etc...real mob of c*nts and alledgedly mates of Bin Laden ...we find it is them, we find there HQ/hideout whatever...tell me again why we can't simply wipe them off the face of the planet?

They are hell bent on Holy War...why dissappoint them?

How many attacks on innocent civilians does it take before action is taken, in the strongest form, to stop it?

No-one is suggesting proclaiming war on Indonesia as a whole or on Islam as a Religion...but it's becoming more obvious each week that sections of the Islamic Faith have a real problem with the West and our proclivity for having a good time, getting drunk and laid...as is our right...so I say we solve their dilemma for them...send em on to their Heaven where 7 virgins and whatever else awaits. Anyone else see the the double standard by the way...or are we to believe they prefer the conversational abilities of virgins?

The War On Terrorism (dontcha love that acronym:D) is coming to our doorstep...today I find myself agreeing with Senator Brown for the first time...we have enough to cope with in our backyard without getting mixed up with a US grab for Iraqi oil.

Indonesia is coming apart at the seams, PNG is not far behind...our Defence Forces are going to be VERY busy lads and ladesses for the next decade or two right here in Southest Asia and the Pacific.

Time to up the defence budget by several orders or magnitude...and if surgical strikes on parts of Indonesia are required to stop these nutcases then just tell the Indonesians to do it NOW or step aside!

Chuck.

Buster Hyman
14th Oct 2002, 11:45
Sorry Gnadenburg.

Not a Pom. But I would consider people like Mawson, Kingsford-Smith & Weary Dunlop to be Australian "heroes". Not greedy, selfish malcontents & thugs. Then again, rock stars get knighthoods & tennis players get Australian of the year...WTF!


Interesting to see that Indonesia has allowed the public to vote for the President from the next election. If it's bad now....:(

Gnadenburg
14th Oct 2002, 12:21
Chimbu

Maybe interested. Was reported a on the 7 30 Report 120 AL Queda terrorists chartered an aircraft an flew directly to Ambon last year to assist and train local Islamic radicals in the slaughter of Ambonese christians.

Reports of nitrate materials, for making truck bombs , confiscated at Bali airport in the preceding months.Links to Phillipine Islamic extremists.

We obviously need a lot more invested in intelligence.

Buster

1850-1880 a tough time in Australia. Not much justice.

Your undisputed great Aussies from a very different Australia!

On Indonesia

Where is all this garbage about a highly credible force projection capability coming from? Fell of my chair over the one million highly trained and quickly mobilised Indonesian soldiers.

Last week Indon police were machine gunning indon soldiers and vicky verka- all over corruption.

The Indon threat to us has been witnessed. Not the red neck invasion theory. Though if it does implode, we could have 15 million Christian Indonesian boat people on our doorstep.

Chimbu chuckles
14th Oct 2002, 13:20
Gnadenburg,

And while I was living in Singapore earlier this year someone hurled a handgrenade over the wall at the Australian International School in Jakarta, it exploded harmlessly in the parking lot luckily...Security went up significantly at my daughters school, Australian International School, in Singapore as a result.

When they are prepared to attack school children you figure they've forgone any rights they might have had let alone justifications for whatever ills they perceive the west has brought upon them.

If it wasn't for a complete moron I'd be doing Sin-Bali shuttles the last few nights in a beautifully fitted out medivac jet...not fun for me but better for the patients than the dismal hospitals in Bali...and the 'no frills' medivac jets currently in SE Asia.

Chuck

Wiley
14th Oct 2002, 13:30
OK, may I be the one to douse the more… ummm… outspoken among us with a healthy dose of cold water chaps? Since this IS an Aviation forum, has anyone spared a thought for the effect on Australia’s overseas aviation industry if (when!) Indonesia closes its airspace to all civil flights to and from Dunnunda? Like about 1hr 30min after Ron Raaf’s first ‘surgical’ strike against Apartment 23B, No 1387 Jalan Merdeka, Jakarta? What are we going to do, escort each one of Skippy’s 747s and 767s with all the many(!) F18s we possess all the way to Singapore? Yeah, right!

Seriously though, I can understand the frustration and the feeling of wanting to strike back. Unfortunately, it’s the nature of the terrorist beast that there’s simply no easily identified target to strike back at in a conventional way. So let’s cool the rhetoric and let the politicians and diplomats do what they do so well – wheel and deal. And you can be sure they’ll be doing a lot of that after this.

Could I also make another observation that will be undoubtedly unpopular to some? I don’t for one moment believe that there aren’t quite a few Al Qaeda operatives in Australia stirring up trouble in the Muslim community, but 99.9% of Muslim people who’ve come to Australia did so to get away from crazies like those who’ve perpetrated this horror. You can guarantee that there be no Al Qaeda sleepers among the poor sods like the Lebanese or Iraqi who runs your local 711 who are undoubtedly going to suffer the vigilante wrath of the rednecks in our community. Don’t allow yourself – or anyone you know – to be led into doing anything (or agreeing with anything) that you wouldn’t like to see done to one of your own. All the rednecks will achieve is to reinforce the line the Al Qaeda boys have been spinning the Muslims in Australia – that they must remain separate and isolated from the rest of the community for their own protection.

Oh, and keep an eye on John Howard and what draconian measures he’ll try to sneak through as legislation to combat terror attacks in Dunnunda.

Mark CRUISE
14th Oct 2002, 14:06
Terriorist's...........Religion's........Two different things totally.

Terriorist Religions......Is that what we are dealing with here??

....Not another F####d up cult epidemic??

Dirty Dogs is what we are dealing with....Its time these smelly puppets learn to lik their own ass and lik it clean.

Chimbu chuckles
14th Oct 2002, 14:28
I reckon we are heading for an Indonesian version of the Malayan Emergency...sooner or later...how many more deaths before that happens do you think?

Wiley...QF flights under threat from Nusantara birdmen if we 'help' the Indon Govt control/eliminate terrorists? Well I suppose given Indonesia is the largest Islamic Nation on Earth there is just the chance that there might be one (Fundamentalist) Indonesian Fighter pilot who's just nutty enough to do something as terminally stupid as that...what would you suggest our Govt do after...express outrage, stamp, jump up and down and hold it's breath?

Given what just happened in Bali why couldn't that happen tomorrow...how would we react if it did...surely killing several hundred innocents in a 747 is no different to killing several hundred in a Bar at Kuta...perhaps our F18s and Singapore's F5s/F16s should be escorting civilian airlines now...silly?

Why?

I'm curious to know how you think groups like Abu Siaf, Al Qaida etc etc are going to react to constant redrawing of lines in the sand?

I certainly have nothing against Islam or it's practitioners...one of the BIG plusses about living in Singapore and spending a fair bit of time in Malaysia was that on 1011 my 13 year old walked out of our condo without batting an eyelid...she just intuitively knew that Muslim does NOT equal Terrorist.

But if the Islamic world doesn't act credibly and soon to reinforce that then perhaps the west might lose patience...if they can't clean up their own house...

Chuck.

Blue Hauler
14th Oct 2002, 15:05
Does Australia have a new PM??

"The effect on Australia is like Sept. 11 because of the significant number of Australians involved," says Australian Prime Minister Helen Clark.

Reported by CBS on website.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/12/world/main525389.shtml

Samuel
14th Oct 2002, 19:26
What do we have to do to get you to keep her?

gaunty
15th Oct 2002, 00:37
ferris

Thank you for your kind words, but if you read my post carefully you may see what I mean.
You may not, in your location, be getting the same news that we are and I would recommend a visit to the local paers websites.
News today and the Govt actions and attitude pretty much confirm my thoughts.
Their have been warnings out for months about the likelihood of Al Quaeda attacks, without any firm idea about exactly what will happen.

Now it has.

The symbolism of the location is exquisite, Bali is a Hindu enclave in a Muslim State, the Balinese are tolerant and friendly, it is a major Western, read Australian, tourist destination, the Sari Bar and Kuta in general is where relatively affluent Westerners congregate en mass and indulge in all those pursuits that are anathema to Muslim fundamentalists, assertive women exposing themselves, horizontal folk dancing as a serious pursuit, both genders drinking with each other and generally having a boisterous good time.
My 24 yr old middle daughter had just returned from a fortnight there and had been, like all the tourists generally having a good time in that very bar, I have the photos.
Nobody was doing anybody any harm apart from contributing a huge fistfull of money to a fragile economy.
That will now cease.

The problem our pollies have, is to get the Indons to do what their neighbours and rest of the world has been asking them to do, at least since 9/11 and that is to come clean on the terrorists, that everybody knows are in their country with the uncomfortable knowledge that some parts of their military are supporting them.

So far, in spite of the Singaporeans for example uncovering a plot for a dozen or so truck bombs leading directly to Indonesia they refuse to engage.

You are absolutely correct about the perpetrators motivation to foment religious hatred.
As a predominantly Muslim State, which is supposed to be about peace and enlightenment, the Indonesian Govt has and had the means to stop this dead, right now. Period.

That they haven’t done so is what they now have to answer for.

Megawati is only there by the grace of the military and they have just passed legislation regarding the method of their Presidential elections that almost gaurantees her removal.

She is also there by the grace of the very many Muslim factions some extremist and any strong action against any of them, will result in her removal

The situation is very unstable and this outrage makes it even more so in a country that is barely holding together whilst the military elite struggles for power. Given their insolent duplicity in E Timor it is not hard to imagine any scenario you may wish in regard to the motives and political use of the Bali tragedy.

We have offered our help and resources in the terrorist investigation and in bringing the culprits to justice, the test will be, whether we will be allowed to fully and without let or hindrance and what will or not be off limits.
There is a direct similarity to our friend Hussein.
There will be a grand play of cooperation, much sucking of teeth and nodding in agreement all of which veil total inaction.

We have been pussy footing around with them on this subject and in our struggle to not offend them they may have gained the impression that we don’t take it all that seriously.

That was then this is now, not sabre rattling, no threatening, just a clear plea for them to show unequivocally that they are civilised neighbours who will not tolerate such actions or attitudes within their or any country.
NO amount of war is going to bring that to pass it must come from their leaders.
That means their leaders must lead and demonstrate that they are doing so.

Our job is to insist that they now have no other options. Period.

If reason and simple humanity cannot bring that to pass or their are forces that are determined to prevent that happening then regrettably there are limited choices available.

Guptar
15th Oct 2002, 00:47
The word around Sydney airport yesterday was that 2 QF checkin girls from SIT were missing. Last seen in the SARRI bar moments before the explosion.

Did anyone hear the 19 yo self proclaimed Muslim extreamist on Allan Jones this morning, proclaiming that even though he was born in Australia, he did not recognise any of our laws, on that of tha Karan. Stated that he sees himself as a Muslim and not an Australian. This is what wer are dealing with.

Bob Hawke
15th Oct 2002, 01:34
Difference is, that whacko can say that here!

Gnadenburg
15th Oct 2002, 02:17
Have heard Australian Jews say similar.

Jews first , Australians second.

Not an anti-semetic post. Just have trouble with extreme religious views.

Bubbette
15th Oct 2002, 04:09
I think you are severely misrepresenting the view of Judaism. Judaism in fact requires allegiance to the country of one's citizenship.

Gnadenburg
15th Oct 2002, 06:57
Bubba

The Church in our country ******ed itself in the fifties and sixties.

Australians a little averse to extreme religious attitudes.

I wont enter into an argument here, but we certainly view some Middle East issues with more balance.

Reference holidays and aviation, where will Australians feel safe ? New Zealand? I favour the beaches of Nha Trang in Vietnam. The communist countries may experience further tourist booms due the inherent protection, from religious extremists, their sysytem offers.

Maybe Cuba could be the next big tourist destination for Americans.

ferris
15th Oct 2002, 08:05
Firstly can I say, Bubbette, Gnadenburg is not misrepresenting Judaism. He is stating a fact that he has heard Jews say their first allegience is to their religion. I have heard exactly the same thing stated. The point being, you can find fundamentalists nutters wearing beards, ringlets, togas or spacesuits. Get it?

I don't get the same news, Gaunty, I get both sides. The local bias, and the western bias via 'the Age', CNN etc.

I agree the victims are innocent, and that the perpetrators should have their skin slowly removed before meeting their God.

I agree with most of your statements about Indonesian politics.
I disagree that they don't take terrorism seriously. I'm sure they are aware how fragile the country is, and need a control tool such as religion or military might to hold it together. You can "insist" all you like. The only real way of changing motivations is through education and living standards. The U.S. is in a position to "insist" on things around here, because of the two carrier groups parked in the moat. But even that won't work without the other changes.
As far as the Indonesians are concerned; embarrassment before the world about lack of order is a more powerful motivator than hollow fist-shaking by indignant Australians.

Northern Chique
15th Oct 2002, 11:00
Without getting into specifics, the Darwin effort was outstanding... but now we have a hell of a job on our hands with the victims of someone perverse idea of a power play. We need blood, plasma products and loads of TLC. See your local red cross unit if you can.

I will never forget the sight and smell and the deafening silence as they opened the first C130 into Darwin... and then they kept coming... now these victims are being dispatched all over the country to their families.

These folks and their families will need all the physical, medical and emotional support this country can muster.

If someone wants to start a vigilante war please reconsider... they attack the young the youthful, the intellegent and the ideal of a free life. This event has a far reaching effect pervading every walk of life. A relatiatory action could be far worse.

I never wanted to become involved in a war, I never wanted to see so many people hurt, scared, burnt, scarred, left wanting for medical attention because there were not enough facilities or supplies, and devistated.

Among a vertiable army of medical workers I was a shocked and horrified as any other. The dead in some cases were the luckiest ones. The pain a burns victim feels cannot be effectively quieted by most modern drugs.
Would somebody please tell me why I have to go through this ordeal again if we go and attack someone else....

puff
15th Oct 2002, 12:34
Well said Northern_chique, I hate to think of some of the things you and your collegues had to witness over the last few days.

One positive that has come out of this is the Australian spirit, and a job well done by the RAAF, they were mobilised in a hurry and got injured Aussies out of Bali in a hurry, I certainly know that i'd feel a LOT better if I was injured in a place like Bali knowing that i'd be in the relative safety of an Australian hospital.

Hats off to the RAAF pilots, RFDS guys, paramedics, nurses, doctors and everyone that did their part, you guys have done us all very proud!

hoss
15th Oct 2002, 13:34
So far indications are pointing to jemaah islamiyah as being responsible. I have heard reports that jemaah islamiyah translates to 'community of islam' or 'muslim community',has anyone else heard similar or able to confirm this.

Regards Hoss

Bubbette
15th Oct 2002, 14:03
Uh, Ferris, Jews with side curls do not hold as one of their religions tenets, "murder the infidels," as do militant Islamists, and much of the Muslim world. The hallmark of "extremist" Jews is piety--charity, good deeds, studying the Bible. Are you really comparing the actions of devout Jews with the action of devout Muslims? What is your basis for that?

Where are the comments on what eg Catholics, or say Buddhists, profess? I find it highly suspect the religion singled out was Judaism.

ferris
15th Oct 2002, 17:51
A bit oversensitive, aren't you? There was nothing "highly suspect" about Judaism being mentioned. I think it was an apt foil for the anti-Islamic comments being made. The posters' point was that religious extremism can be found everywhere. If you bother to look, in an earlier post, reference was made to Timothy McVeigh being a Christian. Blinkers a bit tight, are they?

Yes, I am comparing the acts of "extremist Muslims" to "devout Jews". If you want the evidence, turn on the TV every night and watch the "devout Jews" driving their tanks over houses containing people or shooting children throwing stones. All in response to "extremist Muslims" exploding bombs on buses filled with students (in response to tanks over houses etc. etc. etc.).

Do you really believe you are on some sort of moral high-ground?

Bubbette
15th Oct 2002, 18:01
Do I believe who you label devout Jews are on higher moral grounds than devout militant Muslims? Yes, absoutely. Let's compare: Jews=good deeds = charity, kindness; militant Muslims = good deeds = murder of infidels.

Then you state: "If you want the evidence, turn on the TV every night and watch the "devout Jews" driving their tanks over houses containing people or shooting children throwing stones"

What exactly are you talking about? I can't imagine you're talking about Israel, since Israel does not do what you say; you must be confusing them with the Palestinians, who blow up schools, discos, etc, often disguised as "devout Jews". And then the "devout Jew" part. Since more than 20% of Israelis are not Jewish, and most "devout" Jews don't even serve in the Israeli army, please clarify to whom you are referring.

And then let's get back to the subject: why isn't the world cracking down on the government sponsors of terrorism, without which they couldn't flourish?

ferris
15th Oct 2002, 18:15
Bubbette, I was right. The blinkers are on a bit too tight.

One man's self-defense is another man's shameful atrocity. It's all a matter of perspective.

And yes, when are the governments of the world going to clamp down on state-sponsored terrorism? Such as the UN resolutions against the State of Israel? Oops, I mentioned the 'war'.

#1AHRS
15th Oct 2002, 21:36
One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist!
A Palestinian suicide bomber who kills innocent people is called a terrorist and the Yahudi that drive the tanks and helicopters that kill innocent palestinian people are given the dignity of being called soldiers! Such is the way of the news reporting of the west pending on who is in favour or has more oil or more realisticly who is entwined into american politics. Reading the newspapers is one story and the truth is so often another story.

mustard
15th Oct 2002, 22:18
Bubette, I have tried to find reference to "kill all infidels" in the islamic faith. Couldnt do it. There is a big difference between everday muslims and the bin ladens of this world.
If you must comment, do it based on fact not emotion.
Traditionally Muslims and Jews got along as they still do today in Tunisia. Militant Jews would love to see Sharon destroy the Palestinians.
This has nothing to do with one religion preaching hugs and kisses, while another preaches death. Its about people losing their holy land while another people reclaim theirs. How do we fix that? Bit of a conumdrum. You lot would start by charging of to war.

hoss
16th Oct 2002, 00:22
mustard, these are some of the facts for now.

refer to: surat al nisa 4.36 War is sanctioned, 4.74 allah promises a vast reward to the slain ones. For this reason islam is called the "Religion of the Sword". See also surat al nisa 4.84 - "Fight O muhammad in the way of allah,he is mighty and strong to deliver punishment.........Those who wage war against allah and his messengers will be killed and have their feet and hands cut off".

In the 62 years that muhammad was alive,he waged 66 battles and was a person dedicated to war.

When you consider that islam was founded by muhammad and that muslims believe him to be the last and greatest of all prophets you should be concerned.

Yes, there is a difference between the 'everyday muslims' and 'bin ladens' of this World (however, essentially still the same beliefs). Fortunately for Dunnunda most of these 'everyday day muslims' that live here are considered as 'Backsliders' to their religion. However, the radicals are becoming known and islam is continuing to gain strength in Dunnunda, once these people have the courage of their conviction's we should be concerned.

Food for thought.

Regards Hoss.

ps. with regard to muslims and Jews, standby for the actual reference, but the koran says "do not be friends with the Christian or the Jew". Depending on the version of the koran and translation this can be regarded as "hate".

pps. rather than the muslim vs Jew debate. Reality is we are not far from a islam vs Australia situation.

Gnadenburg
16th Oct 2002, 00:25
Bubba

Israel, as I'm sure you are aware , was created with the help of terrorism.

The blowing up of the King David hotel, summary execution of British peacekeepers and on and on. Terrorism under the guise of Zionism- the movement to found and support a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Look no further than former Israeli Prime Minister Menachen Begin, and his ruthless Jewish terrorist cell Irgun. Or the Stern Gang.

What some Arabs are doing, under the guise of Islam, not dissimilar to the radical Zionists in the forties.

Whose side am I on?

Neither. This religious garbage is on our doorstep and am trying to understand it.

Do I understand it ?

No. To me a dog chasing it`s tail. Through a rock at it, it looks at you with startled realisation, then procedes to chase it's tail again.

Unfortunately, all of the above has become relevant to Aviation in this country.

Desert Dingo
16th Oct 2002, 02:02
Mustard: You can't find references to "kill all infidels" ?
How about.. (just a small selection - there are many more.)

• "...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).

• "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)

• "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).

You write "Traditionally Muslims and Jews got along......"
• The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29)

Just a comment based on facts, not emotion.

mustard
16th Oct 2002, 02:25
Muslims have certainly participated in their share of violence, but so have christians. In the third crusade good King Richard the Lionheart defeated Saladin, and it took several days to torture and execute a few thousand muslim prisoners.
I am sure Saladin would have down the same had he the chance.
Christians conquered Spain and expelled/killed/converted Muslims
It was also Christians who instituted the inquisition, invented the rack and stake as instruments of religion. I certainly dont have any answers, but I am making an effort to look at both sides of the story before declaring my own war on Islam. So far the only conclusion I can draw is all religions have a fairly equal record when it comes to dodgy violence.
regards Mustard

CoodaShooda
16th Oct 2002, 03:09
Will those quoting extracts from the Quran please indicate their sources...or do we really have a plethora of islamic scholars here?

Google appears to link to a large number of sites claiming knowledge of these passages but most appear to be non-islamic in nature....and so should be treated with caution.

In any event, the issue is surely weeding out and removing from the gene pool a mob of anti-social psycopaths, regardless of their claimed religious affinities.

Making religion part of the equation gives the [email protected] what they want, turns a police action into WW3 and ultimately leaves China the winner.

OhBehave
16th Oct 2002, 03:56
Ask someone from Sudan, Hondura's, Nicuragua, Panama, Chile, El Salvador or Haiti who the real terrorists are and they answer with names like Ronald, George I, Bill and George II. These people all had God on thier side, but they were not Muslims.

And all this from a country that has used nuclear weapons, funded WMD for countries such as Israel, Iran and Iraq and been the only country tried and convicted of war crimes since WWII. As I said, they had god on thier side.

gaunty
16th Oct 2002, 04:03
CoodaShooda

Wise counsel indeed and as usual.:cool:

qfcabin
16th Oct 2002, 04:30
I know it is traditional and ,indeed, almost normal for threads in D and G to get off track...but this is ridiculous!

bitter balance
16th Oct 2002, 04:44
OhBehave - I know you don't like him but what has George II done to "Sudan, Hondura's, Nicuragua, Panama, Chile, El Salvador or Haiti"?

Am I missing something here? When were the US tried and convicted as war criminals? I presume you are referring to My Lai? The whole country was certainly not tried for this crime. If you are referring to My Lai then I note you have conveniently forgotten the Nth Viet massacres at Hue and the Serbian massacres at Srebreniza and in Kossovo. Also the massacres in Rwanda and countless other atrcotices since WW2.

Islander Jock
16th Oct 2002, 04:51
Just watched part of a very sombre address by the PM to parliament relaying in some detail the problems faced in identifying those killed. Very sad indeed.

I must be mellowing with age. A few years back my immediate gut reaction would have been to simply target the religion or culture associated with those guilty and seek retribution there. We are dealing with people though who want us to do just that.

So what is the answer? Make a lot of noise, demand action and when nothing is done what then?

I do not hold my breath expecting the corrupt military regime in Indonesia to raise too much of a sweat investigating the matter. They are more than likely implicated as much as whoever delivered and detonated the device.

For the time being I shall direct my energy in helping those affected, that I come in contact with, in whatever way possible.

For the sake of our lost sons and daughters, lets not allow ourselves to be drawn into racial and religeous hatred and become no better than the murderers themselves. I am available however to offer my services to apply some summary justice to those found guilty of this attack.

hoss
16th Oct 2002, 05:03
CoodaShooda, it's very simple. The source of these extracts from myself and Desert Dingo are straight from the koran.

muslims believe the koran (quran) is the divine word of God. To the muslims, the koran is God's last word to the World.

sura 33:40 "the Quran is the final authority" :eek:

Without worrying you too much, until we convert to islam we are considered to be the 'Infidels'.

Going off where Desert Dingo is from, I would say he can 'speak from authority' on what this religion is like, and I'm not suggesting he lives at Lakemba and flies out of Bankstown. ;)

Regards Hoss.

Cypher
16th Oct 2002, 05:05
I think the threads on track.. something like this might lead to WW III and that'll definenly affect Aviation!

Mustard...
Not to start a pi$$ing competition here over what religion is better..

In the bible, I can't think of any passages commanding the murder of unbelievers in the Christian religion. The only reason why those extremist Christians did what they did was probably because they saw what they wanted to see. They twisted the bible to suit their own needs. In fact I believe it says to 'Love thy neighbour', regardless who they may be.

However if what Hoss and DD say is true, that killing unbelievers is commanded in the Koran, and translated correctly, thats gotta be a different story, and a very dangerous belief indeed...

I hold no anomisity against Muslims, except the ones that start shooting at me or attempt to blow me up.... :rolleyes:

Captain Muff Diver
16th Oct 2002, 05:28
It took two days before President Bush to even comment about this outrage against Australia.

When his adviser told him about it for a moment then posed some questions on the lines of:

i) Where in hell is Bali?

ii) Do they have oil?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

God Bless all the beautifull people who are suffering over this.

Swingwing
16th Oct 2002, 05:32
It is indeed very difficult to separate fact from emotionalism at a time like this. One part of me says that I'd love to jump into the jet today, load up for bear, and then roar up over Indonesia looking for someone to exact vengeance upon.

However, even if we could identify a specific target (such as the terrorist training camp, or rock from under which these people crawled), it's hard to see what me bombing it would achieve.

It seems pretty clear that at least part of the rationale for this attack was to destabilise Megawati Sukarno and the Indonesian government. They are now stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. The western world will no longer allow Indonesia to turn a blind eye to terrorist groups, so some action will have to be taken. However, there are a number of fundamentalist organisations in that country who have as their avowed objective the creation of an Islamic state. If any government action is perceived as too extreme, or Megawati is seen as being beholden to Western demands, then that will just be grist to the fundamentalist's mill. They would love to see this action lead to the downfall of Indonesia's fragile democracy - an outcome which would very definitely be contrary to Australia's interests.

So, long story short, attempting to go in boots and all risks igniting an already inflammatory situation, and using up lots of our very limited political capital in the process. This is the reason for the very sensible and diplomatic approach (IMHO) being taken by the PM and foreign minister Downer. We have to seek for just the right balance of outraged demands and understanding support. Clearly, some things cannot be negotiated - the perpetrators of this terrible act must be found and punished, and their support networks disrupted. However, we must attempt whenever possible to let the Indonesian government initiate and foster this action.

It's also worth remembering that the perpetrators of this outrage hate us and our lifestyle. Most of them are so blinded by this hatred that nothing we do will change their view. However, we need to remember where we are in the world, and continue (start?) a concerted effort to win the hearts and minds of the average Indonesian Muslim citizen. Remember that the USSR lost the Cold War because of Levi jeans and big screen TV's, not nuclear weapons and bombing campaigns...

Thoughts are with the families of the victims.

SW

hoss
16th Oct 2002, 05:40
A nice post Swingwing :cool:

Regards Hoss.

Wiley
16th Oct 2002, 07:35
Thanks for getting the thread back more or less on track, Swingwing.

If I may go back two pages to answer one of Chimbu C’s comments on my last post there: you misunderstood me in my poor attempt at irony, CC. I wasn’t referring to some rogue Indon fighter jock getting airborne in a random search for a passing Skippy jumbo. I was saying that the Indonesian Government would quite rightly close Indonesian airspace, at least to all Australian-registered civil aircraft and quite possibly to ALL traffic to and from Australia, if the Australian military were to commit an act of war on their soil. (I was also attempting to thicken the irony by illustrating just how difficult any such ‘surgical’ air attack would be by alluding to the fact that there would be much collateral damage and many collateral casualties in any such attack.)

I don’t think QF (or any other airline for that matter) would blithely send their aircraft on scheduled services into any sovereign country’s airspace without a current diplomatic clearance – and any such withdrawal of overflight clearance on the part of the Indonesians would have serious repercussions on Australian Aviation and the Australian economy. (And this is an Aviation forum, isn’t it?)

I have to agree, however, with some of the comments others have made here regarding the smiling faux co-operation and inertia we can expect from the Indonesian military over this. They – or many of them – hate our collective guts over the part Australia played in the recent unwilling Indonesian withdrawal from East Timor. There’ll be more than a few in the Indon miliary quite enjoying our discomfort over this.

And as someone has mentioned already, Bali is largely Hindu, and even many usually very tolerant Australians come away thoroughly embarrassed by the behaviour of many young Australians on their ‘pilgrimages’ to Bali. God only knows what some 'pious' fundamentalist Muslim must make of it. That old pop song of the Seventies said it all of the Oz yobbo culture that has been attached to the ‘big trip’ to Bali for many young Australians – ‘been there, done that, I’ve been to Bali too…’

PS: And before someone gets offended by my comments, (as I'm sure someone will), I don’t care if every one of the Oz victims was the worst kind of yobbo in the world (which I’m sure they weren’t) – no one deserved what those poor people got. No one. Except maybe the mongrels who did it.

CoodaShooda
16th Oct 2002, 08:27
Hoss
I have no doubt about your and DD's sincerity. My only question was whether your comments resulted from personal study of the Quran or you were passing on information gleaned from a third or fourth party.

I have a number of Moslem friends who embody those tracts of the Quran that call for tolerance of others religions.

And before you jump to any conclusions, I am very much WASP and the son of a minister to boot. I also have Christian friends who range across the spectrum from 'turning the other cheek' types to far right intolerant red necks - but that's the nature of our reasonably tolerant Territory.

I am also a spin doctor and what I am seeing in the mass media at the moment is terrifying me. The number of conflicting agendas being spun around the world stage has become so large and unstable that it gives the impression of being about to spin out of control.

This is the time for both strong leadership and compassion.
Leadership to keep our heads clear , identify the real targets and stamp them out of existence. And compassion to allow us to see past the labels of race and religion and accept the innocent peoples of the world for what they are, regardless of the differences.

Sadly, we're unlikely to have either in sufficient quantities to prevent a blood bath.

hoss
16th Oct 2002, 09:50
CoodaShooda,

My references are first hand accompanied by considerable research on/against islam.

You say:

"I have many muslim friends who embody those tracts of the quran that call for tolerance of others religions."

Now its your turn. Find me a reference from the koran to support this.

Ask any muslim if a Christian would be allowed to set up a Church in his society? Of course not - let those in the dark remain there, seems to be the attitude.

Happy hunting,

Hoss.

ps. what is WASP?

OZBUSDRIVER
16th Oct 2002, 11:18
White Anglo Saxon Protestant:rolleyes:

OhBehave
16th Oct 2002, 11:25
Bitter Balance,

You are right. Like the majority of voting Americans, I dont like GII.

He has done very little to the countries mentioned. Sorry, I apologize. I had intended to list Afghanistan as well. Over 4000 confirmed dead in a country where not one hijacker came from. Do you thing the US will start bombing Egypt and Saudi as well.

The US was tried and convicted of war crimes in the early eighties for mining the harbour in Honduras.

Rwanda would be that place where over 1 million civilians were killed in the space of a couple of weeks while the US packed up and left knowing the attrocities being committed (as admitted by Bill Clinton after retirement on 60 minutes US).

And please remind me who the terrorist is.

ferris
16th Oct 2002, 12:03
I live in a very Muslim society, and there are plenty of churches of different Christian denominations here. Would you like me to go out and take some photos and post them here?

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good witch-hunt. In your obviously near-religious zeal, you might want to have a look at the Old Testament bible. That might raise a few eye-brows. And that is effectively what the Quoran is. It hasn't had a 'revision'.

Ignorance, such as yours, is the exact breeding ground where barbarism, such as the Sari Club, is born.

Northern Chique
16th Oct 2002, 12:13
One of the last people to be left in Darwin was wheeled onto a Qantas flight today. Many thanks to the cabin crew and ground staff. Medical stretcher patients are time consuming at best and tempers have been tried when there are schedules to maintain.

Today they couldnt do enough to help the patient, the family and us. (ambulance crew doing transfers :} ) and also thanks once again to the airport firies who are ever so willing to give us a hand (or muscle or two :D ) when we need them.

For some reason I still have to be restrained from one or two factions in the media though... go figure! :))

On the note of religion, I am very open minded... I am an agnostic... but what I expect from life is a simple ethic, "do to one another as you would have done to yourselves."

A free life is not without responsibilties. I see this every day.. the something for nothing crowd get what they put in.. eventually nothing and what goes round comes round. I have a faint recollection from sundi skool (sic) that to live by the sword is to die by it...

To lead is not intended to mean to bash the sense into some poor sod who did not understand: to lead is by example, education and direction.

There are many cover ups associated with this and many other events. We have access to a filtered and distorted truth. Anger is a natural reaction. But such anger based on the filtered view can be more destructive than the event itself.

From what I over heard from some of the media standing behind the fence was a quiet bemusment that an American navy vessel was stationed just off Bali. From what I read here, many people were aware of the volotile situation about to occur except us Aussies. Our PM was heard to declare he knew nothing of it...

I heard a captain tell his crew and passengers once "sit tight, belt up and hang on, this could be a rough ride." He was right, but we all got home safe thanks to Boeing, the teamwork of the crew, and his courage to speak up. Maybe scare a few folks but no one got hurt. Maybe a few pollies could have done the same for us.

divingduck
16th Oct 2002, 13:48
Hoss,

I can only echo what ferris has already said here.

I live just down the road from him, in a 99% Muslim country and they are to a man, outraged at what has happened.
They are disgusted that anyone would firstly perpetrate such an act and then even more outraged that they are attempting to give their cause justification by invoking Islam.

Unfortunately your considerable reasearch on/against Islam... says it all really. on/against.

Islamic teaching forbids the harming of non combatants, forbids force except as a last resort (after making every attempt at conciliation), forbids suicide in any guise, preaches tolerance of other religions, especially "the people of the book"..to those uninformed out there, that's Christians and Jews.

Someone else also said that there are nutters in every religion, I used to work with a born again loony in Rocky...he believed all unbelievers should be killed too...and that included Catholics, Anglicans Muslims, jews etc etc, ie everyone that didn't agree with their twisted teachings. He even went to great lengths to give me quotes from the bible supporting this stance.

Basically this was an outrage, there is not a religion on the planet that would condone such behaviour.

Deep breaths everybody, stop beating up the Muslim angle, that is EXACTLY what these a$$holes want, to stir up strife between the two of the major religions of the world.

If it turns out that the perp was a muslim, he should be treated as a terrorist that just so hapens to be a muslim, not the other way around.

OhBehave
16th Oct 2002, 14:03
Diving Duck.

Your last line says it all my friend.

steamchicken
16th Oct 2002, 14:09
I may only be a pig-ignorant Pom, but something tells me that blowing up the Indonesian army HQ, or any other military action unless actually invited in by the Indonesian government to look for the swine, would be a very good way to create a failed state or worse still, a still-unified enemy state. The elected government would be completely discredited, the population understandably furious, and the situation ripe for a military takeover of power or popular revolution - either ultra-Islamist or ultra-nationalist.

Failing either of those, you could expect either an Islamist attempt to drive out or wipe out the Christians, Hindus etc, or a violent reaction on their part against the Muslims. With such a situation threatening, a new military boss or other sort of tyrant would be tempted to attempt unity through confrontation: i.e. use a showdown with foreigners to divert the internal trouble, like Austria in 1914, Argentina in 1982, Sukarno's Indonesia in the early 60s and lots more.

Even if the government was to permit Australian or other forces into the country to help chase their rebels, this could still lead to a burst of nationalist rage and either burning barricades or tanks on the street. I say again, the government could not survive an uninvited foreign military presence - it would either be swept away by revolution, toppled by the army or forced to join the enemy. Even if we were to be called in to help beat the Islamist rebels, Sukarnoputri's government would be associated completely with "foreign invaders" and would likely fall. The terrorists' agenda is the creation of chaos, in which to pursue their goal of a religious-fascist state.

The chaos could be created through a new economic crisis, through an outbreak of nationalist fury at a foreign intervention, through a military takeover, or through an escalation of ethnic conflict to full scale civil war (which could be brought about by a foreign intervention). In any of these situations the terrorists would have the opportunity to hack an Islamist state out of the wrecked Indonesian state, probably by expelling or killing the Christian and Muslim minorities in their bits of the country. The Bali bombs would fit unpleasantly well into a strategy of economic mayhem, aiming to knock out tourism as a source of economic revival and trigger a new crisis, worse than that of 1997. At the same time they open the possibility of foreign powers intervening and making it possible to brand the government as puppets. The right answer is surely to build up the elected civilian government to maintain its control over the country - not to undermine it or make an enemy of it.

Buster Hyman
16th Oct 2002, 14:26
Well, I think Woomera deserves our appreciation for letting this thread continue, especially since it became somewhat volatile for a while there. I guess this is one of those topics where people need to blow off steam and the latitude given should be acknowledged.

It amazes me that incidents from the middle ages are being brought up in argument here. Apart from illustrating differences between Islam & Christianity, why bring it up? You cannot apply modern day thinking to the actions of those in the past.

I know one Muslim, and he would have to be the nicest bloke I've ever met. Apart from him, I know next to nothing about Islam, however I do know a bit about Christianity.

Turn the other cheek.

Bubbette
16th Oct 2002, 14:42
If Christians, or whoever, turn the other cheek against this militant Islam, they won't have any cheeks left to turn. Why aren't you calling a spade a spade? Militant Muslims have been massacring Christians in Indonesia, in Pakistan, and in the Philippines. It's about militant Islam. It must be stopped. What Christians, or others, did in the past doesn't make that right or the Muslim murderers right at this time, does it?

Woomera
16th Oct 2002, 15:21
Well here we are at post 100 people and only just.

I have had my finger on the padlock button a couple of times on this most difficult of issues.

I am going to close this thread now, as I believe that all that can be said for the moment has been said and it is time to reflect on this terrible tragedy and let the dust settle a little.

Feel free to open a new thread but please remember that BOTH Governments have a very difficult task ahead of them at the moment.

It goes without saying that we all send our condolences to the families of ALL countries who have lost a loved one and a wish for a speedy recovery to those who were fortunate to survive.

Spare a thought for the Balinese, not just the ones who were killed or injured, but the rest of the Island who are now facing a life very much less certain and are victims equally.

It is a measure of Australians tolerance and goodwill, that the local charities and the good old Salvos who are coordinating it, have been overwhelmed with medical and other desperately needed supplies and help for the Balinese.