A Few Questions about PPL/Scotland

[rossco18_uk]

Hi there,
Just a few questions about flying in Scotland. I have recently gained my PPL in the USA and am awaiting its delivery by the CAA. I am going to take a wander over to Glasgow Flying Club in the next few days, to check it out. Clearly, the RT here is different to that in the states, so was wondering, if anyone else did their PPL in the States, how many hours would you recommend with an instructor before venturing out on my own? In the states, your flying time went on the Hobbs Meter, but I am curious as to how it works in the UK (e.g. brakes on to brakes off) - or is that an individual thing with regards to the flying school itself? As it is approaching winter, would you say the number of VFR flying days reduce here in Scotland or is a crisp winter's day occur more often than thought? And finally, to anyone who does fly around Scotland esp. Glasgow area, where would you recommend a flight to? I have many relatives in Aberdeen and friends in Dundee, but are there any particular areas you would recommend?

I look forward to hearing some of your recommendations.

Happy Flying,

Ross

[carb]

I just had a couple hours check-out, which took that long basically as I wasn't too current and needed some refreshing to get my PFLs and cross-wind landings up to scratch (very windy day!!!), as far as RT goes though, they set me lose out there on my own to pick it up by experience. The hardest thing at first was making out a word that anybody was saying! Mumbling Scottish accents...

Expect "line-up" instead of "taxi into position and hold"... "QNH" or "QFE" instead of "altimeter" (QNH)... and quaint phrases like "report coasting in, coasting out" and "pass your message"...

Brakes-off to brakes-on is nice... saves a few mins off each rental... if you forget to note down a time, Tower seem to keep an accurate log of all your movements!

Oban and Inverness are great flights, mountains look the same as in California only here they're half the height and don't seem so turbulent, and have the addition of lochs in between... if necessary you can fly VFR along the valleys, under the clouds, by following main roads, though I've not had to try that yet, been some superb CAVOK days lately. Dundee is fun to land it on runway 28, you turn final over the downtown area.

ATC (Scottish FIS) don't have low-level radar so you have to keep telling them where you are and when you think you'll get to where you're going!

['India-Mike]

rossco

Congrats on your PPL! Type conversion might be an issue (presumably C150/152 in US, PA38 at Glasgow). Glasgow is Class D with entry/exit lanes/procedures, but the ATCO's at 'PF are excellent about non-standard VFR clearances. so your checkout might take a little longer. Glasgow Flying Club won't let you apply to be self-authorising unless you've got 100 hours or an IMC, so all your flights will be authorised by an instructor (that should keep you out of trouble!) which can be a little bit limiting if one isn't around!

Weather during winter is only really an issue if the aeroplanes are covered in frost/ice. (Takes ages to defrost and the BAA will close area Whisky including the taxiway if they think it's a bit slippery). Also the short days restrict you, but I've had some excellent flights November-March. Having said that in a winter month the PA38's do about 1/3 to 1/2 of their summer monthly utilisation.

Oban is 30 mins (ok, usually 35 mins) away; Islay 45 mins; Prestwick 15 mins; Cumbernauld 15 mins if you're naughty and take a city-centre departure; Campbeltown 35 mins. So you can amass a load of reasonable land-aways relatively cheaply, especially if you buddy with one of the low-time PPL's.

Remember that you've got Prestwick and Cumbernauld to choose from as well. If you're interested in an aerobatics course, go to Prestwick Flying Club and have some great fun in their Bolkow Junior with an excellent instructor.

Hope this helps....

[carb]

re: aerobatics course at Prestwick, I fancy something like that, do you get some sort of certificate or endorsement afterwards, or is just a case of logging a few hours for the sake of the fun (& useful experience, potentially)?

[HelenD]

I would recommend Inverness and all the Firths in the area. Scotland is such a pretty area to fly over mush better than Southern England.

[Deeko01]

Rossco,

Just to add my wee bit, I came back from the US in January with the PPL and promptly joined Cumbernauld Flying School, done a couple of hours with the instructor on the Katana then was checked out. RT wasn't a problem for me as l have worked in aviation a while and l knew what it was all about but if your not sure then the best advice is to get a cheap airband radio and listen to what they are saying it is a great help.

I wanted to fly from Glasgow Airport with the GFC because as l live in Paisley its right on the doorstep, however this 100 hour (due insurance) nonsense that they have going on down there put me right off but you can fly the terrorhawk (no thanks) on your PPL.

Cumbernauld, well its very difficult to get a hold of an aeroplane there without about 3/4 weeks booking in advance, they have 2 katanas of which 1 they own and one they dont so they want to use the they own as much as possible, they also have a warrior which l would say would be more available to self hire peeps. They are ok but are not a company l would recommend if you want to do self hire flying.

I thought about Prestwick and am still undecided, l hear the Northside are getting a brand new Cessna 172 Skyhawk fresh out of the box so that might be worth a look, although l have no idea if and when it arrives or what the membership or rental fees would be.

I am starting at Tayflite in Perth who have one Katana, ok its like 70 miles from paisley but what the hell its a darn site closer to dundee, aberdeen or inverness if you wanted to fly up that way, they have no Membership fees, no Landing fees (unless you land away) and there rate is £64 per hour self fly hire which is very very good and l have heard lots of very positive comments about how friendly it is over there so would give it some consideration if l were you.

At the end of the day we all want the cheapest flying possible.

Best Regards and let us know where you decide to go flying!!

Happy Landings

[rossco18_uk]

Hi there,
Thank you for all the comments. I was surpirsed to read this 100 hour restriction at GFC - never actually knew it existed, even though you are a fully qualified private pilot. Anyway, have done a couple of hours at prestwick flying club a short while ago, however, I do have another question - are there two flying clubs at Prestwick? Just I keep hearing people talking about one on the north side and one on the south side, so are there actually two? A brand New 172, would be very nice to fly, dread to think of the cost though :confused: I had a look at Cumbernauld the other day.... So it really is either Glasgow, Prestwick (north or south???) or Perth. Have to say never knew Perth had no landing fees. I wonder how many VFR days you would get which would allow you to take an a/c from Glasgow all the way to Aberdeen.
What are the rules governing the city centre of Glasgow? I know it's within Class D, but surely that doesn't mean you can't fly over it, just keep within the rules of the ANO. Is that correct? And go where ATC tell you to go?
I have an airband receiver already and funnily enough, was listening to Glasgow yesterday, although I think because I am fairly far away and to be honest mine is not very good, I could not hear the ATC Controllers, but I could hear the pilot's and I did hear the phrase "line up" instead of "Taxi into position and hold!" I don't think the RT will take getting a lot of used to, and nor the flying, I guess it's just getting used to the local area.

Anyway, any other info would be great.

Ross

[flying snapper]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf

You may like to download the current (1st October 2002) version of CAP 413. This is the RT handbook and a few reads will give you all the phraseology that you will need.

You are right to say that there are 2 organisations at Prestwick. I fly from the Prestwick Flight Centre which is located on the Northside next to HMS Gannet (SAR Sea KIngs). We have a couple of Grummans, 2 152's, a 172 etc. The new 172 is due early next year. In a couple of weeks we are relocating to new premises next to the tower. This will give us a hangar, pilots lounge, briefing rooms, office etc etc. we are all looking forward to this move! Time is charged from take-off to landing plus 5 mins taxy time. Landings are about £8.50 each

There is also the Prestwick Flying club which is on the southside, I don't know too much about them but they seem a cheerful lot!.

There is also Ayroplanes.co.uk which operate a spanking new Robin DR 200. They have a website which you could access. They operate from both locations.

Why not drop in to the Flight centre sometime - Suzanne or someone will fill you in with all the details on plane hire check flights etc. We have the advantage of being in open FIR, near enough, so not restricted too much!

The scenery, as everyone has said is superb, and the flight times to the islands is reasonable.

You just need to practice the strange dialect the noo!:D

[rossco18_uk]

flying snapper, do you have contact details for Pretwick Flying Centre or even a website for them? Cannot find anything on the web.

Rossco

[flying snapper]

Certainly do!

The Prestwick flight centre was recently taken over and the new owner, George McFarlane, is currently organising a new web site. The telephone number is 01292 476523 and the ops person is Suzanne, she has all the info.

Hope to see you there!:D

['India-Mike]

rossco

Nothing to stop you flying over the city centre, provided you can comply with Rule 5. However the VFR clearance will usually have an altitude restriction that means you can't. Donkey stops at the Kingston Bridge, you can't glide clear.

People do ask for and take city centre departures - it's just not for me...

[Deeko01]

Rossco

I do it regular at 1,500 ft - if it stops I will deal with it but far to much paranoia is built up about it, they clyde is suitable enough just make sure you can swim!!!

Sorry that sounds a bit amatuer but I really cant get stressed out over wonder whether or not to fly over glasgow city centre at 1,500ft and those who do well.............

catch yae

[rossco18_uk]

Once again thanks for the replies. I have to say Prestwick Flight Centre sounds quite good, especially with the thought of the new 172 coming along. How much they charge for one of the 152's flying snapper? I have quite a likeness with the 152, as it was this aircraft I trained in. I will give them a call anyway. Any idea the best day to head down i.e. does it have to be Mon-Fri or does Suzanne work other days too?

Definately would love to fly over the city centre at some point, obviously keeping to the rules. :D I have been curious though about these landing fees here in the UK? I assume you are charged once you have landed, so if you plan a flight from Prestwick to Glasgow, do a touch and go at Glasgow (not sure if PPR is required for this, but lets just say no), then return to Prestwick, do you have to pay the ridiculous £15 landing fee for Glasgow and if so who do you pay it to, if you have returned to Prestwick. I gather you cannot desguise the reg :rolleyes:

Just curious.

Rossco

[Deeko01]

Rossco

Unless you have a concessionary rate agreed with the Glasgow Flying Club for the £15 quid a go then the fees will be based on a C150 type aeroplane :

£20 plus VAT Departure fee
£10 plus VAT CAA Nav fee
£40 plus VAT Handling fee

and yes PPR is required, mate I trained in the US also and got really used to those free landing fees but unfortunately not like that over here.

Hope that helps
Regards D

[rossco18_uk]

Flying Snapper,
hanks for the advice. I went to see Prestwick Flying Centre today and was pleased at how nice everyone were. Tey told me about their new 172 arriving in March, which will be quite exciting, though I dread to think of the cost :( I will probably be flying the 172 more often than the rest though.

thanks for the info though.

Rossco

P.S. is there a publication i can look at, in order to find the reporting points around Prestwick. Or is this just a case of finding out about the local area.

[I have control]

Have you looked into group ownership? At any given time there are usually shares available in planes based at Perth & Cumbernauld - and it can certainly be an affordable way to fly.

I haven't seen Mull (Glenforsa) on anyone's recommended list, but it's probably the most beautiful place I ever landed.

My experience of flying in Scotland is yes you will get a ton of IFR days, but the joy of flying in that beautiful landscape on the VFR days more than compensates.

Take care if you're planning on landing at Aberdeen, I recall being seriously fleeced up there for landing & tie down. Never went there but Insch didn't look too far away.

[flying snapper]

Rossco,

You can find all the information about Prestwick (or any licenced aerodrome in the UK) from the AIS site. This is at WWW.ais.org.uk. You need to register for the info but this is only to see who is using the site - no charges! (very important to us Scots ha ha!). The Prestwick info is at

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/ad/egpk.htm

It is a pdf file and includes a very useful chart of the aerodrome so that you know where Tango or Romeo 1 is when you are cleared to there. The location of the VRP's is clearly marked on the 1/2 mil charts. You will need a North England one which covers up to Loch Lomond or so. There is a booklet about the local area, the flight centre rules and all the airfield rules at the flight centre. You have to read and sign this before they let you go up.

The weekend before last I had one of the best flights of my training so far. I left Prestwick, flew up over Cumbrae, Bute and eventually to Lochgilphead, then turned south over the entire length of the Mull of Kintyre. Gigha and Islay were clearly visible. Then down to Campbelltown before turning East to the southern tip of Arran and back to Prestwick. Everything went totally to plan and the views were magnificent. 1hr 25mins of solo time logged and a terrific sense of achievement gained!

Hope to see you at the portacabin soon. I also hope they told you that we are moving to our superb new clubhouse on Monday the 28th October. I will post a message to all when the new clubhouse (with hangar!) is officially open.

Happy flying!