SVFR through the London CTR

[FlyingForFun]

Evo started an excellent thread on the ATC forum (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68430) about flying through the London CTR with a SVFR clearance. I was wondering how many people actually use this facility regularly.

Cheers,

FFF
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[sennadog]

Dunno, but Evo aint trying it on Saturday! :p I know what it is and how to obtain one but I'd need to brush up having only mentally rehearsed one for my RT Exam.

I'd certainly like to try one going from Redhill - Biggin and over the top of London making sure I had sufficient glide in case the donk goes (again).

[Whirlybird]

I did it to fly the London heli-routes, if that makes any difference.

[Evo]

making sure I had sufficient glide in case the donk goes (again).


You really know how to inspire confidence in that aeroplane of yours.... :p :)

[sennadog]

Don't worry. We're using G-PD. He's a bloke aircraft.:p

[paulo]

FFF - Is this a single engine question?

How high do we have to go to glide clear? (Sorry, calculator/brain isn't to hand).

Instinct says this is a daft (SEP) idea, but I'd be curious to know.

Oohhhh.. now I get it. Read the other thread Paulo, like the man said...

So, this is a "how do we sneak round just outside Ealing at about 8 foot (e.g. is it best to turn the lights off and press pause on the CD multichanger)"

Rather than "I'm at a million feet to safely do my SEP SVFR. Due to engine failure I've identified a target field in Birmingham, and am therefore planning on making a base turn around Edinburgh."

"If I get enough flap in of course. Otherwise the Orkneys."

:D

[Keef]

Ah! So it was YOU, paulo!

Lat Saturday at Rochester. Microlight ahead landed, stopped, then drove sedately the whole length of the runway without turning off. When I were a lad, the tradition was "after landing, as soon as saely possible, turn right and vacate the runway." Not this bloke!

Keef went round, and was "asked " (FISO) to "follow the 172 ahead".

20 minutes later, the 172 completed his circuit. I still think he should have been talking to London SVFR and Farnborough on the way round.

And I, like a twit, followed him. I could have turned in, landed, dropped my passenger, and taken off again before he got round.

No, can't have been paulo, can it.

[Wycombe]

Have done the SVFR route Fairoaks - Ascot Racecourse - Burnham a couple of times. If I remember correct, you will be cleared by the folks at Heathrow "not above 1500" if they are on Westerlies and "not above 1000" (QNH :eek: ) if they are on Easterlies.

Have done that once and 900' on the QNH does feel low!

It is a spectacular ride though as the "heavies" trundle down the ILS about 1000' above.

[distaff_beancounter]

As far as I am aware, you are only allowed to take S/Es through the Heathrow zone, to the west of London. I understood that neither S/E fixed-wing & helis are allowed over the central & eastern parts of the Heathrow zone.

Even taking the western route, you are rarely allowed above 1500' & sometimes not above 1000' so there is not much scope in a S/E to have sufficient height to glide clear, over the build up areas.

[Fuji Abound]

There are a couple of common routes through the "London Zone". There is Burnham "corridor" to the west of Heathrow and the "corridor" over London City and up the valley. The Burnham corridor as others have said is always not above 1500 feet or 1000 feet, London City is usually not above 2500 feet I seem to remember.

I think this is a very interesting topic because of the land clear implications and a recent comment in Gasil this edition which caught my eye. Gasil made the point that the Courts do not consider the London City route provides adequate land clear opportunity for a SE.

I would be interested in people’s views on this aspect from a number of viewpoints. Firstly, I gather single engine approval for commercial operation including in IMC is about to be granted, albeit I guess for turbo props. Should they suffer an engine failure and "breaking through" the overcast at say 1000 feet perhaps over a city how well will they cope or will their commanders be sufficiently situationally aware to vector themselves to a non built up area? Secondly, using for example the Burnham corridor at 1000 feet or following many departures from "City airports" realistically would we guarantee to land clear? (And I appreciate the rule exemption on arrivals and departures).

In summary is the comment in Gasil yet another attempt to curtail the airspace in which we are free to operate or should we be avoiding these low level routes through built up zones because of the risks to ourselves and others which the Courts are rightly enforcing?

[pulse1]

When I was following this thread on the ATC forum yesterday, I was surprised that everyone seemed happy to accept a SVFR clearance in SE aircraft with a 1000' amsl ceiling anywhere, let alone close to major airports and built up areas. Apart from problems of a PFL, the chances of being prosecuted for getting either too high or too low must be quite high.

I know I tend to be ultra cautious (read too many accident reports) but I would not dream of committing myself to a 50 mile VFR XC with a 1000' cloud base which is the same thing as far as I can see. I might press on to get home under those conditions, as I was trained to do, but I would certainly not set out with such a low altitude restriction. Am I too cautious?

I blew my flying budget last weekend so, sadly, will not be going to Sywel. If I was, as the old Irish joke goes, I wouldn't start from Redhill:D

[Grim Reaper 14]

If it's of any use (and nothing I've posted so far has been...) I live under the City route and have never seen any SEP's overhead. Having that annoying habit of looking up every time I even think I can hear an engine, I see most things, but have occasionally caught myself looking for aircraft when a barge is droning down Regents Canal. :rolleyes:

Please ignore this post, it was written by an idiot.

[Trislander]

Hi there,

Could someone remind me what the procedure is in order to transit through Class A on SVFR please? Say for example I am flying from Popham to Denham. Must I file an ICAO flight plan?? What else do I need to do?

Thanks for your help,
Regards, Tri

[distaff_beancounter]

Trislander
No need to file a flight plan. Just call Heathrow Radar on 119.90 (check frequency?) & ask nicely, before you get to the zone boundary :)

[rustle]

Trislander,

Popham/Denham:

Route just north of EGLK as if you were going around the outside.

Talk to 119.9, 5 mins before the zone (mininum)

Ask for SVFR, routing Bracknell - Burnham (as in a "pass your details" message)

Chances are you'll get a clearance not above 1000 or 1500 on London QNH (depending on rwy in use at EGLL).

There are plenty of FL areas as anyone who's actually flown the route will know ;)

For comparison purposes: going from Blackbushe to Elstree, using that routing through class A, saves about 5 mins compared to going around outside Booker in an AA5A/B.

Don't forget your minimums (viz)

Valid IMC = 3 kms to accept SVFR
No IMC = 10 kms to accept SVFR (I think)

[Whirlybird]

distaff beancounter,

The London heli-routes include crossing Heathrow, at below 800 ft if I'm remembering correctly. Which gives you a wonderful birds eye view, and is great fun - if a little nerve wracking when doing it for the first time.

[Evo]

Discovered from our trip yesterday that I'm definitely too much of a coward to try this yet - Class D I can cope with, Class A's too scary :)

[ATCO Two]

Hi Evo,

Why, what's the problem? Explain yourself - why should there be a difference between Class A and Class D from your point of view?

[Trislander]

Thanks for your help guys. It doesn't sound as complicated to transit Class A as I thought!

Thanks again,
Tri

[distaff_beancounter]

Hi Whirly
Yes I had forgotten that route. The only time I have been that way was in a AS355 Twin Squirrel (with an ATPL(H) at the controls). I was most amazed that we were told to hold over the fuel farm, before crossing the active. It seems a very vulnerable spot to hover, with all the heavy metal taking off & landing.

Yes it did seem nerve racking & I was just the front seat passenger! :D

So are S/E helis allowed across Heathrow?

[The Nr Fairy]

distaff :

As for hovering over the fuel farm, it's probably the best place to be. In the event of an engine failure you'd make an effort to get some speed on, so you're moving away from the problem.

And the published heli-lanes are available to S/E helicopters, which includes the one over Heathrow.

[Evo]

ATCO Two

I know the rules, I know how to ask and I know that the worst that can happen is being told negative, remain clear of controlled airspace. Shouldn't be a big deal, and the problem is really a psychological one about going somewhere that I've always been taught to avoid.

Flying from Goodwood means that you're always on the lookout for the London TMA and from day one you are told how important it is to avoiding wandering into Class-A (quite rightly, too). However it means that when things are busy, as they normally are when passing Farnborough way, I revert to what I know (a MATZ crossing from Farnborough Radar, something I've done many times) rather than something new. One quiet day when I've got a few more hours I'll give it a go, certainly, but even though I can see the logic when I'm looking at a half-mil chart on the ground it is hard to actually think about doing it when I'm up in the air.

In constrast Class-D is a known quantity - been there, done that (and been told to remain clear too). The worst that can happen is the same - remain clear - but I've never been taught that it's a place to avoid. That's the difference, I think.

Maybe we need psychological tests in the class-2 as well... :)

[martinbakerfanclub]

I guess i'm lucky in that i've never been refused clearance through class a...but having done it in a s.e.p. a few times, and at rather silly heights, you do start to wonder what the consequences are if the donkey has a bad day.
Maybe old (er) age age is making me value having an engine on each wing...just in case!!:rolleyes:

[distaff_beancounter]

martinbakerfanclub
I'am with you on this one. Yes, it must be old(er) age, or mature wisdom, creeping up.

With 2 donkeys, I ask for SVFR across the Heathrow zone, either the usual western routes, or the short cut to/from Elstree to SE, if the City Airport is not too busy.

In SEPs, I go ROUND the zone. :)

[FlyingForFun]

Excellent comments from everyone (even you, Grim Reaper! :) )

Since I started the thread, I suppose I should really answer myself! I've never requested SVFR. But, having seen ATCO 2's comments on the original thread, I'll definitely give it a go the next time I'm going in that direction. Assuming the viz is good enough, of course - something which no one else has mentioned is that you need 10km viz for SVFR if you don't hold an IMC/IR.

I have to admit that I'm quite surprised by the results of the poll - there is a far higher percentage of people who have done the transition than would appear to be the case from talking to people around the club-house.

As for forced landings, from looking at the chart there seem to be plenty of options to the west of Heathrow, I can't say I'm worried about that at all. I would be far more worried going through the City Class D zone, which is almost entirely yellow on my half-mil chart, except for the blue bit across the middle.

Keep the replies coming!

FFF
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[rustle]

FFF,

something which no one else has mentioned is that you need 10km viz for SVFR if you don't hold an IMC/IR
Not true, your Honour.

I posted exactly that ages ago :)
Valid IMC = 3 kms to accept SVFR
No IMC = 10 kms to accept SVFR

So there :p

[FlyingForFun]

Rustle, you're correct, my humble apoligies.

FFF
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[Fred]

I have used SVFR several times to clip the NW & SW corners of the LHR zone. IMveryHO in terms of SEP land clear it is definitely feasible from 1000' anywhere except directly over Slough, which in any case is too easterly to be given approval. Again IMHO no other SVFR routes in a single through the LHR or LCY zones are legal. To be perfectly honest you don't need to be Pythagorus to realize that it doesn't save you a hell of a lot but what I do like about it is the radar service and separation I get from the very congested, not to say on a sunny weekend afternoon downright dangerous areas west of the zone and between LHR & LGW/LTN, when Farnborough/Brize can only give FIS due to workload. The very nice people at Heathrow have on more than one occasion continued to pass me traffic information even after leaving their zone along those busy corridors to the N & S.:)

[rustle]

FFF :)