SVFR through London CTR

[Evo]

Hi chaps - hope you don't mind a PPL sticking his head in here :)

Currently planning a flight from Redhill to Sywell for the Private Flying fly-in on Saturday, and one option that has been suggested was to ask for SVFR clearance through London's class-A on a route along the lines of OCK-BUR-HEN. As a student I was taught that the London CTR boundary was akin to the gates of Hell (all hope abandon, ye who enter here) but it looks a much easier and less crowded route than trying to squeeze around the corner by Farnborough and Blackbushe.

I was wondering what our chances were like, and if there were any suggestions as to how to make ourselves less of a pain in the backside - and therefore more likely to get allowed in? Any thoughts..?

Thanks :)

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Try ASCOT - BURNHAM at 1000ft. Heathrow Radar 119.9.

[ATCO Two]

Hi Evo,

WBS is correct. OCK - BUR is impossible. Far too close to the climbout when Heathrow is on Westerlies, and right in the way of the ILS traffic for 09L/09R on Easterlies. Take a look at a map. Plan to route OCK - West of Fairoaks LFA - Ascot Racecourse - BUR NDB (or town). Anticipate a clearance not above 1000ft ASC- BUR SVFR. Elevation of Ascot is 220ft. After BUR you may get climb to 2000ft. BUR - HEN is fine. A transponder would be useful and be sure you listen out carefully on 119.9. Be prepared to contact Northolt (WBS's mob) on 126.45 if so instructed. There is the possibility of a refusal, since we are required to provide standard separation in Class A airspace, and if somebody is already in the Western part of the Zone this is difficult to achieve. Talk to Heathrow Radar anyway and they will advise.

[eyeinthesky]

Just a note of caution: the above posts suggest 'planning' OCK-ASCOT-BUR-HEN and 'listening out' on 119.9. Just be aware that you will need a CLEARANCE to enter the LL CTR!! Consider also that you are only 800 ft AGL, so it's a good idea to keep spotting fields which would make likely landing sites should it all go quiet.

An alternative route would be BIG- Isle of Dogs - Lea Valley- BPK with the permission of Thames Radar (132.7) and this has the benefit of usually being 'not above 2400ft' with the better glide clear options that this allows.

[ATCO Two]

Sorry, I thought I said, "Anticipate a CLEARANCE not above 1000ft..." in my post, implying that an ATC CLEARANCE is required, and maybe triggering the idea in the pilot's mind that he must obtain a CLEARANCE to enter the London CTR! Must be mistaken!

Two further points : although only 800ftish AGL, there are plenty of clear areas on the BUR - ASC route for emergency/precautionary landings, as was evidenced by one of our Thames/SVFR Controllers who developed a rough running engine recently! Also, White Waltham is an option, Windsor Great Park etc.

I would suggest that on balance you are more likely to get ASC - BUR, than the Lee Valley routeing, especially if City Airport is open. Although at 2400ft you have greater decision time, the options for a forced landing are much more limited as the area is much more congested. This topic has been discussed recently on here; also see last month's GASIL.

[FlyingForFun]

Good thread. I think most private pilots, myself include, are very wary of asking for SVFR - I know very few pilots who have done it, and none who do so regularly.

A few more questions, though, most (but not all) specifically regarding White Waltham, where I fly from:

First of all, is there anything published anywhere about what routes we can expect? Is there, for example, any way of knowing that ASC-BUR is likely to be ok whereas OCK-BUR isn't, apart from local knowledge and/or speaking to people who have done it before? I had a quick look through the AIP a while ago and couldn't find anything, and I'm sure there's nothing in Pooleys.

Now, as for White Waltham, if I wanted to fly EGLM-ASC (en route to Redhill, for example), what should I do? Should I call you guys before I depart? Can I expect a squawk and QNH before I depart? Would I then be able to change to 122.6 for departure, and back to 119.9 after take-off? How about a clearance, should I not expect that until I'm airbourne and I've been identified? In which case, would it be acceptible to fly direct to Burnham (giving about 90 seconds from take-off to entering your airspace if EGLM are on one of their easterly runways), or would you rather I fly south first, and only turn east once I've been identified and cleared? Any other hints?

And how about the return journey? Once I've been given SVFR clearance, I assume it would be something like direct to Burnham, then direct to EGLM? In that case, I'd like to switch to 122.6 at Burnham, would this be ok? And I'd normally be squawking either 7000 or standby once I'm about 5 miles from the airfield, I presume this wouldn't be acceptible if I'm in your airspace?

I guess similar issues would probably arise flying to or from other airfields such as Denham or Fairoaks, so hopefully your answers will help a whole load of people shorten their journey times through west London!

Thanks!

FFF
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[ATCO Two]

Hi FFF,

No fixed wing SVFR routes are published for the London CTR. There are sound reasons for this which I won't mention here. There are several routes which are commonly used by SVFR aircraft, and these have developed over the years by custom and practice. The BUR - ASC route is one of these. It can be used when Heathrow are landing on 09L/R as it passes under the final approach track at 7nm. Aircraft descending on the ILS will be at 2000ft, SVFR traffic not above 1000ft - standard separation. On Westerlies at Heathrow, departing traffic has to cross the noise monitoring point at 1000ft or above and maintain a minimum 4% climb profile which equates to 243ft per nm. By 7 nm West therefore, departures should be at 2000ft or above and therefore separated from SVFR traffic at 1000ft. The SIDs cross BUR (or its vicinity) at 3000ft or above, thereby allowing climb to 2000ft (if appropriate), for Northbound SVFR traffic.

As I mentioned above OCK - BUR comes too close to Heathrow for comfort, and also too close to the Fairoaks LFA. As I said, take a look at a map. The other issue is that traffic on SVFR clearances is supposed to be navigating by visual reference to the surface - not beacon bashing.

OK, your flight from EGLM - EGKR. Call us in the White Waltham circuit for a clearance, not en route to BUR or ASC. There may well be other traffic already established on the routes and we have to provide standard separation between you and it, which can be difficult to achieve in confined airspace. Not much point in calling before you depart - the traffic situation can change rapidly. Stay in the circuit until you have received a clearance which will include a squawk, a routeing, a "not above altitude", and the London QNH.

The return trip. No point in routeing back to BUR - that is out of your way. OCK - WOD is a common initial clearance with a direct track to EGLM when South abeam ASC. (Or even OCK-ASC- EGLM). Always ensure you avoid the EGTF LFA or call them to warn them of your presence, and always be prepared to route around the Zone if a SVFR clearance cannot be given for any reason. We will transfer you to EGLM when you are clear of conflicting traffic - you will usually be asked to retain the squawk until the circuit.

Lastly, I am surprised about the lack of knowledge and reticence about SVFR clearances, especially at airfields within the LCTR. There must be instructors available who will explain the procedures and the requirements for SVFR flight to PPLs?

[FlyingForFun]

ATCO 2,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll definitely give this a go next time I'm heading in this direction. I'm not too worried about having clearance refused, because I'm quite familiar with the alternative routes, but I'll feel a lot more confident that I'm doing it "correctly" now you've pointed me in the right direction.

As for the lack of knowledge, I think this is self-perpetuating - students aren't shown how to ask for SVFR, and when they become instructors they're still unfamiliar with the procedures so they don't show their students, and so on. I had to request a SVFR clearance through some Class A on my R/T practical test, but we all know that those tests may or may not accurately represent the way things work in real life - and even if it was accurate, it wouldn't have helped answer the specific questions which you've just answered for me.

I may be speaking to you on 119.9 soon!

FFF
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[positionand hold]

As another PPL who has not "dared" ask for an SVFR across London, this is a very enlightening post. Having flown the LAX "Special Flight Rules Corridor" and the PHX transition routes many times (yes, even recently), I remain surprised by how opposed UK ATC are to accommodating similar arrangements. After all, PHX is pretty busy and LAX is jolly busy...

ATCO 2's response is very much more helpful.

I am not aware of anybody at my club (located at Elstree) who has knowledge or expereince of crossing London under SVFR. It was certainly not a part of my training (which always headed firmly north-west).

A look at the LAX terminal chart will show that the various zones there are at least as complex as those around London, then factor in Santa Monica, Long Beach, Orange County, Hawthorne, etc.

The controllers there appear able to cope, indeed they do not want to speak to you in the LAX corridor, you simply squawk 1201 instead of 1200 and free-call on a dedicated freq. At both LAX and PHX, the route is directly overhead the active runway numbers and I am sure there are similar arrangements at other busy US airfields.

Why is it that our ATC is so much more negative?

Mind you, I reckon I would rather make this request to Heathrow than to Essex Radar.....

[The Nr Fairy]

I'm resisting a temptation to be smug and shout "Helilanes".

[ATCO Two]

Hi pandh,

Ah, but are the LAX and PHX Zones Class A? No, thought not! And there are vast differences between UK and US ATC philosophy - ask any UK Commercial pilot which methodology he prefers.

Looks like you guys had better have words with your flight instructors as there seems to be a big hole in your/their knowledge and experience of SVFR in the London Control Zone. If I had the time and sponsorship I would arrange roadshows to educate you all.

I also happen to know that Flyer magazine organises visits to Heathrow on odd occasions..... enough said?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

... and if a visit to Heathrow is a non-starter, you're welcome at Northolt where you can see the same radar picture and discuss similar issues.

[Aussie Andy]

Would love to visit Northolt - what chance we could fly-in ina Warrior? Would l/fees be prohibitive? (I consider anything over about £20 prohibitive :))

[Hippy]

I'd just like to comment on ATCO Two's comments regarding the lack of knowlege on behalf of PLLs operating from airfields adjacent to the zone. I am just speculating, but I should imagine that QFIs and the like at those airfields will offer advice such as "Follow this path, where lies open FIR & the pilot is King, avoid the East route where ATC own the skies and dragons wait to devour the foolish who may stray from their cleared path". Would you as a CFI say, "Sure, you've got your PPL know, give Heathrow a call and ask for a SVFR clnc, or would you advise to stick to what you know & go round it? The airspace classifications in UK are diverse enough, I would suggest that unless your destination lies within class A, you should, as a VMC PPL avoid it all costs. The zone aint that big after all?
If you must, remain outside the zone, place your request & expect anything & be prepared to comply. No offence to the Heathrow chaps, but I've heard the way they treat Police aircraft who deviate slightly from their clearance & quite rightly too! This is not the place to be mucking around or, if the truth be told, taking a a short cut. The zone is there for a reason, if you don't need to be in it, stay out.

That said, take maximum advantage of the airspace that you may freely float around in, it may be diminishing shortly!

Rgds,
Hippy.

Hippy.

[Scott Voigt]

ATCO 2;

It is true that we don't use class A around our airports nor do we feel the need to. Class B is good enough for us to move the traffic about... The using of Class A is the UK's choice and not a good reason to restrict GA...

regards

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

AA, sorry but Northolt in a Warrior is not possible. The airfield doesn't accept singles because of the built-up area. I speculate that the landing fees would also bring a tear to your eye. Send me an e-mail if you want to tee-up a "land-borne" visit.

[ATCO Two]

Hi Scott,

I should state that Heathrow is the exception with Class A. Most, if not all the other major airports in the UK have Class D airspace. A good case could be made for establishing Class C airspace around Heathrow, but for reasons I won't go into, this looks unlikely.

Another issue here in the UK is that GA traffic generally is looked upon in some quarters as an irritation or a distraction. It doesn't generate any major revenue to ATS providers, but resources such as equipment and manpower must still be made available to provide GA with a service. This is but one consequence of the privatisation of ATC, and this attitude is likely to become more prevalent in years to come, unless the GA fraternity are made to pay realistic fees for the services they currently receive free of charge.

[120.4]

I think weather might also have something to do with this. As we all know, the wx in the UK is too unreliable to allow visual traffic; too great a risk of deviation to remain VMC and with our already overburdened runways we cannot go wasting capacity to accomodate littluns. (Ask Nick Faldo). Anyway, as ATCO 2 says, providing the ATC staff for that when we haven't got enough for the "payers" just isn't on.

I would guess that at LAX the average wx is reliable enough?

[Scott Voigt]

120.4

Yup, LAX has pretty good weather most of the time, however in the summer the ocean fog comes in and things get a bit dicey on the beach. Not to mention that even though the vis reports say 3 miles I quite often couldn't see forward more than a mile due to haze while flying there. Now in SFO the weather quite often was of the UK variety <G>, cloudy or foggy. The rest of the bay area was nice, but not around the peninsula.

As for the not enough resources. I can feel for you. Sometimes we don't have what we need to do everything either and in those cases, we do restrict VFR. However, we have pretty much been raised with the idea that GA has as much in the way of rights to the airspace as anyone else. Now, around the MAJOR places, there are indeed times and places where we don't let the VFR folks tread, just because you can only do so much. But when we can, we let the little folks in too. It's their airspace too... But also, the little guys are quite often going to be the big guys in a not to distant future. Shoot, we seem to be the worlds training ground for commercial pilots over here...

regards

[Aussie Andy]

WBS - thanks, we're working on some dates with our other halves, and will get back to you soon!

[120.4]

Thanks Scott.

Well perhaps we are a little restrictive then. We do let GA into the zone but tightly controlled and I suppose that is the reason we are Class A - it gives us tight control. Gatwick is Class D and still does okay but here too the limitation is often staff.

I would be interested to know how big your's is compared to our's! Our zone is barely large enough to protect the IFR. GA can legally pass 600' underneath our ILS traffic and still be outside the zone and outside our control.

Point 4
:)