Is it worth me applying to NATS?

[foghorn]

I have a couple of questions, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to answer honestly.

I want to work in aviation. Full stop. Over the last four years I've been chasing the goal of being a pilot, got the licence a year ago, not a sniff of a job since. I'm becoming very daunted by the length of the queue for jobs from here at the back, and I becoming really doubtful as to whether I'll ever get a job, especially with the threat of war in the gulf - you just don't hear of those people who fall by the wayside, yet there's a big gap between the number of UK professional licence holders and the number of UK airline jobs.

After I started training as a pilot it opened my eyes in a way: I actually became more and more interested in ATC (partially thanks to a Heathrow Tower visit: with thanks to ATCO Two).

Now I'm wondering if it's worth applying to NATS.

I expect that there would be some pretty big questions asked at interview regarding my CPL/IR and commitment to career as an ATCO - my question to you is, has it happened before, and do you think it's worth it for me?

I have to act fast as I am 29 3/4 years old. I'm of the mind that there's only one way to find out how my licence will be received and that's to apply - I'm possibly answering my own question here!

Finally, what's the salary for an ATCO at college. I've heard £22,000 mentioned, but I think that might be after qualification.

Thanks for your help - and e-mail me personally if you want to say things privately.

cheers!
foggy.

[goatgruff]

Go for it Foggy!
As you've already intimated, they will ask you what you'll do if things pick up and the "once in a lifetime" flying opportunity is offered to you the day after you've validated at your first unit.
Only you know the true answer to that, but a good answer would be that now you've applied, you're committed to ATC, but would like to make use of your flying qualifications when not at work.
In fact, several atco's are CPLs, (and a few ATPLs), who do work on the side.
If you do decide to take the ATC route you'll probably find that more flying opportunities do actually come your way, it seems that freelance employers like their pilots to have a stable grounding in aviation, which they apparently seem to think atc is!:D :p
Despite all the moans and groans you'll hear from us whinging atco's, we do get a decent amount of time off, which allows all sorts of money making schemes to take place - freelance flying and witchcraft being the better paid.:)

I'm not sure about NATS starting salaries these days, but I think you're about right, no doubt one of my hallowed bretheren will put you right on that one.

Anyway, good luck.

[BobAgg]

Foghorn,

Just recently been accepted for a cadetship starting next April. I work as an ATSA with the company, and hopefully I might get to go earlier for good behaviour!
I digress, the starting salary at the college is 17.5k, excluding £100 p/w accom allowance and various other bits and bobs. It goes up steadily once various exams have been passed!
In saying that, the 17.5 could change with the acceptance?? of the new pay deal, in the region of a 10 % increase methinks!

Hope that helps!

Good Luck!

[Lost_luggage34]

Go for it. I'm too old in my early 30s to apply - wish I'd thought about it earlier.

Shame, since I have such an enormous interest in the industry but NATS make their rules and blank anyone like me because of that.

You would think, and yes I know how long it takes to train etc etc., that with the current AND predictated shortages, NATS would be a tad more flexible.

NATS and flexible in the same sentence .... hmmmmmm

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Get in there and give it a whirl. I would warn you that ATC is totally different from flying and there are plenty of failed ATCOs who are now very good airline captains and plenty of failed pilots who are excellent ATCOs. As has already been said, there are several guys who combine both careers, although God knows what their family lives must be like.

I've enjoyed every minute of my career.. There are bound to be whingers in any job but when you consider what we get for what we do we don't do too badly and a lot of the whingers simply have no idea which side their bread is buttered on.

[foghorn]

Thanks for the encouragement.

I'm going to go for it: the form is now completely filled in except for the 'why do you want to be an ATCO section', which I'll fill in once my creative juices are flowing!

Cheers!
foggy.

[foghorn]

Well the application has just been sealed for posting tomorrow - I'll keep you up to date with the progress.

Cheers!
foggy.

[BobAgg]

Foggy,

Glad to hear it!

I'll warn you though, the process takes quite some time. It took me about 4 months from start to getting accepted, and I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones!
I know a candidate who waited 19 weeks before even getting a reply to his application inviting him for some aptitude tests!

If you need a hand at any point in your application, give us a shout!

Again, Good Luck!

Bob Agg

[eyeinthesky]

From posting the application to starting at the College: 18 months!!:rolleyes:

[Undercover]

Just in case it's still relevant and/or required...

Trainee ATCO starting salary will be £17,652 once the pay deal goes through... moving on to just over £18,000 with the next rise in October.. which is eh... now!

You get a £100 p/w allowance to cover rent and NATS pays for you to take your washing home to mum once every month.

So... there aren't many NATS employees having to worry about student loans!!! Except me of course... :(

[Dances with Boffins]

The process is taking even longer now, and there may be further delays shortly. Don't expect to be starting at the college before the end of 2003 at the very earliest. Good luck.
Incidentally, I was 29 when I applied, with a full set of flying licences under my belt too. I had no problems, and in fact wasn't the eldest on my course. Just be prepared to accept that ATCOs see the world of aviation from a slightly different angle, and that some ideas you currently hold as sacred may have to be altered a little. A small amount of humility goes a long way, especially at the interviews. rolleyes:
I'll keep my eyes open for some old shag pitching up on some future course in Bournemouth. :D :D :

[Mr_Grubby]

Foggy.

Glad you have taken the plunge.
Be careful though, not all is so rosey as previous posts have suggested.

I have just retired after 32 years as an ATCO. My manager refused to shake my hand on my last day and would not come to my leaving drink up. He said it would be 'inappropriate' for him to attend.

So I sent him a bottle of Teachers to show that I at least had no hard feelings. He has not even acknowledged receipt.

These are the sort of people you will be working for.

Good Luck anyway, and remember, always watch your six o' clock.

Mr G.:( :( :(

[niknak]

Bloody hell Mr G!!!
That's really sad.:rolleyes: :(
It would be nice if there was some way of indentifying that sad git of a manager you used to work for, they sound like a prime candidate for tosser of the month, or even MD of NATS!
In my 23 years I've met several like that, and I've never understood where they get their motivation to live from.

Anyway Foggy, don't let that put you off, you never know - in 20 years time you could also be one!! :D :p :D

[mainecoon]

mr g

would have sent bells it's cr@p
shove the empty teachers up where the sun don't shine
true some managers do have a personality bypass on promotion but in my opinion with the ones iv'e met it's about 60/40 with 60 being good people

anyway enjoy retirement and don't look out of the windows when going on holiday

[Mr_Grubby]

Mainecoon & Niknak


Thanks guys for your reply.

I have the last laugh though. When I get angry I just look at the lump sum & pension I have got for sitting at home watching cricket on Sky. They are all working their butts off.

Very satisfying.

Regards,

Mr G
:) :) :)

[foghorn]

Well, the first update is that there is no news. I've had the standard 'we are processing your application' postcard, but nothing more.

cheers!
foggy.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Mr Grubby wrote: "I have just retired after 32 years as an ATCO. My manager refused to shake my hand on my last day and would not come to my leaving drink up. He said it would be 'inappropriate' for him to attend.

So I sent him a bottle of Teachers to show that I at least had no hard feelings. He has not even acknowledged receipt.

These are the sort of people you will be working for."

Foggy: I don't know where Mr G worked, but don't be put off. In my 31 years at Heathrow/LTCC I have NEVER experienced a manager, or any other work colleague, like that. You'll will usually find that people are what YOU make them... Be friendly; treat everyone as equal in status and you shouldn't go far wrong.

Thinks: Why does he call himself "Mr Grubby"? Could this be the answer?

[Mr_Grubby]

HD
I have just sent you a private mail identifing myself and the manager.

All should be clear now.

Mr. G

[niknak]

HD Teachers! No wonder he didnt bother to acknowledge reciept!:p

[WX Man]

On my course there is one ex Sabena captain (32 y.o.) and one Sabena F/O (29 y.o.), plus 3 who were training for ATPLs and a few who used to have ambitions of flying. So it would appear, from our lot at least, that there is a fairly positive perspective on that kind of experience (can't speak for NATS, but just thought I'd give you the view from the other side of The English Channel).

[Barnaby the Bear]

YAY FOGHORN!!!!!!

:D

Sorry forgot where I was then..............Good luck, you'll love it.....most of the time :p

[foghorn]

Well, I owe you another update - and its that there is no news. I've had two seperate dates for the first round appraisals, and neither of them has been convenient for me. They must think I'm not interested but I'm just a busy chap...

I'm keeping the second half of March clear in case they hold one then (which seems to be the pattern).

cheers!
foggy.

[foghorn]

I thought I'd dredge up this old thread to announce that, this morning an A4 envelope dropped through my letterbox saying that I had been successful at interview and will be going to the College some time in 2005 (actual date to be confirmed).

So a big thank you to all who gave encouragement. It's taken a while to jump through all the hoops, but it was all worth it.

cheers!
foggy.

[vintage ATCO]

Congratulations foghorn.

You applied in 2002, did the tests in 2003 and was interviewed in 2004 for a start date in 2005.

My second grandson is about to be born, maybe I should put his name down now. Bit like Eton really. :confused:

All the best

VA

[side-saddled]

Congratulations Foghorn.

You should enjoy yourself at the college, but beware the 5%.

95% of the people you'll come across in the college are genuine and honest people who are there to help you.

If you get chance, I'd push to do aerodrome or approach, because it would give you more oportunity to to leave if the grapes become sower.
If you're starting in 2005 you'll be doing single rating courses due to the new european licencing, depending on where you're going to be posted, so tower would probably be more useful. (You'll get the same money as ACS as well if you go to EGLL. Don't listen to the sausage factory comment, it's rubbish!)

Once you get to the college, you'll find out about the rumour mill which, although is based on complete rumour, tends to be rather accurate.
At the moment, the rumour mill is saying student salaries are going to be cut to around 14K, because the college doesn't want to reward failure, but the good news is that the time it'll take to get your student licence is shorter, so the money will go up quicker.
Don't know if this has been confirmed yet though.

Good luck with the training
side-saddled

[AlphaSierra]

Congrats Fog,

My test dates are 22nd April in Bournemouth. I only submitted the application three days ago, so it's all good so far. Here's hoping they've sorted out the rest of the process too!

I have to admit that reading about all these long winded application processes is getting me down a bit, but as many have said, I'm sure it'll be worth it :)

More time to prepare at any rate!

Good luck to you at college.

Andy

[Jerricho]

Well done Foggy!!!! :ok:

I would echo the wise words of Side-S and see if you can get yourself onto an Approach course (personal opinion of course ;) ).

(BTW, how you been Mr. Grubby? Long time no see? Still providing constructive input?)

[alfie1999]

side-saddled/jerricho,
I'd be interested to know why you suggest Approach. I'm assuming you guys are on that side of the fence. Generally, how do the area/approach specializations stack up against each other?

shift systems?
career prospects?
relative training timescales/difficulty?
employment opportunities outside of NATS (overseas)?
manning?
movment within the UK (voluntary or otherwise)?
ovetime opportunities?
morale?
pay scales for the average area/app atco over their first few years?

I appreciate most, if not all, of the above evolve and change as you progress and are by nature subjective. I also realise the manning requirements of NATS come first. However, as a future student i'll take advice wherever I can get it so if the opportunity to influence proceedings presents itself I can act with some knowledge.

thanks

[Jerricho]

Alfie.......check your Pm's :ok:

[foghorn]

Thanks for the well dones and tips.

Jerricho - I'd also be interested on your thoughts about approach by pm. I was thinking about Area only because I need as much stability in location as possible (remembering the infamous 'we can post you to the moon if we want to' NATS location caveat). This is for the missus' career - two moves in quick succession would cause her big problems.

[alfie1999]

Jerricho,
Thanks for the pointers; certainly food for thought. With your agreement i'll forward your advice to foghorn unless you've done it already.

Cheers

[rozi]

Congrats Foggy! I find myself at the start of this particular obstacle course, having sent off my application last month. With any luck I'll see you in Bournemouth next year :D

[weselfluren]

Rozi - nice to see a good enthusiastic post. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but a year from initial application is being a tad too optimistic - NATS don't seem to be able to recruit like most Multinationals/Civil Service/Armed Forces and it's going to be a bit more of a long haul.

Don't make any plans to move to Bournemouth before 2006 - most courses are full beyond 2005, you will get next to no information and will have probably forgotten that you applied in the 1st place by the time it comes round to do the testing, let alone any interview.....

Hopefully it has changed a bit, but 12 months is extremely optimistic. I reckon that an accurate (not being pessimistic here) estimate would be closer to 28-34 months to complete the process and go to Hurn, and that's if you're lucky.

Best to apply at the age of 12 to start at the age of 21.....:oh: :ouch:

Best of luck - don't let the process put you off as it should all be worth it......:{

[AlphaSierra]

I just gave NATS recruitment a call. The nice lady told me that they're currently recruiting for courses commencing between April-July 2005.

Good new to some I hope!

Andy

[weselfluren]

Andysawicki,

Not a lie, but not a truthful answer to your question - best get used to that attitude, the truth seems to scare HR somewhat:mad:

If you are applying from scratch now, then you've got a long wait. The "nice lady" was kindly referring to the interviews that are currently going on. These people have been in the "system" for 2 years or more now :mad: . Draw your own conclusions on the time scale, don't bank on it and don't drop any of your other plans as it might well be next year, or the next, or the one after that, before you actually get to go to the College.:uhoh:

There are a few threads you should take a peek at - if you look back 6-18 months on this subject you'll find a lot of peeved applicants. I myself applied back in Spring of 2002 and still haven't finished with the process.:oh:

Ask the "kind lady" to speak to the person who makes decisions on the recruitment timetable - I doubt they'd give you Summer 2005 as an answer if you asked "how long will it actually take from ab initio recruitment until I could possibly start at the college?". I can't imagine them lying outright to any of the candidates - bet you still think you'll be paid £18.5k plus living costs too..........(interesting thread on that too!)

Best of luck and lots of patience I'm afraid, unless things have changed radically (like they're sending students to be taught at Eurocontrol, DFS etc....... it's a big backlog and you're joining the back of the Q):sad:

Damn, I hate being negative about this - let's hope it gets sorted out soon and improved for all the future applicants/students.:ok:

[foghorn]

Andy,

I agree with Weselfluren, the lady in question will be telling the truth only for people who have just completed the interview stage.

Nats HR seem to be interviewing a lot of people at the moment, partially clearing the huge backlog they built up, and partially seeing new people so those places will be filling up fast. If I had just sent in my form, I'd plan on going to the college in 2006 at the earliest.

I sent my form in September 2002 and I am probably on an April 2005 course!

cheers!
foggy.

[garthy]

I'm so sorry to write this, but Wes, please take the chip of your shoulder when giving people advice on the recruitment process.
Looking back, you failed to get in and unfortunately you waited a long time for this rejection, which appears to have happened on more than one occasion. You also still seem to be pursuing this as you feel that it’s unbelievable that the one person on the interview could have been qualified to reject you. Maybe those successful were better, and I hope it was not the attitude that "all the world is against me" that you purvey that lost you the chance.
Life is full of events like this, if it wasn't, my numbers would come up every Saturday night.
I'm sorry for you, you appear to have dedicated your life to this role, and maybe you are potentially the best there is, but s**t happens. Before it becomes all consuming, and damages your professional and social life, find something to fill your time with and move on.
Sorry to be harsh, but it gets a bit depressing reading your posts.
To all others, it takes some time, remember there are a lot more people that are applying than places, so HR can do what they want, they have the jobs, and you just want one.
Before anyone shouts, I too was waiting to get through, but I got offered another job that would take many years (if I was successful in application, testing, interview, CATC and validation) to match in salary, so I moved on. I have a wife and family (soon) to think of.
Now I can afford to finish my PPL and maybe look to buying a second hand Cessna soon, so I'm happy, I guess now I'll be taking the instruction rather than giving it.
Good luck to you all, and remember, good things come to those who wait.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Anybody else reading the negative, just go for it. You won't know the real time scale until you apply.
Its a fantastic career, and one i believe worth waiting for.
:}

[weselfluren]

Garthy - only being honest about what's gone on in the past. I sincerely hope it is not going to happen for others in the future...

As for my "chip on the shoulder", well, let's just say it is well formed for reasons I can't divulge on this site for obvious reasons. I too have an excellent current career, but I WANTED to become an ATCO above anything else. They rejected me for non ATC reasons, citing "apparent lack of commitment" as one of them - that is pretty damn hard to accept.
Garthy, if you are happy to drop out of the process, then let's face it, ATC was probably not for you in the 1st place.:oh:

It's a long and tough struggle (or so it seems!), but I am trying to give a bit of honesty and realism here. NATS don't seem to be able to do that for the applicants......


Good luck to all who try.:ok: (a rather common positive theme to most of my posts, I'd have thought)

(and yes, if only I'd known about pprune in 2001 and seen similar posts - then I wouldn't have put off career moves, buying a house when it was 80k cheaper etc.)

[foghorn]

An update for all those who kindly told me to 'go for it'!

I have been confirmed to start at the College in March 2005. I've just given work advance notice of leaving, have started putting plans together to move down to Bournemouth and I must say I'm looking forward to it massively.

If anyone could pm me approximate salaries while validating and when validated that'd be grand. I've found some old stuff through search, but I know that the salary structure has changed quite radically over the last year or so.

cheers!
foggy.

[Fidgell]

Congrats to all who are succesfull and good luck in Bournemouth, its very hard work, but very rewarding to those who get through.

Its a pity some unsuccessfull applicants want a slanging match, but thats one of the traits not listed on the desirable form in becoming an ATCO.....;) Nuff Said!

Area or Approach? A very personal thing, can I suggest you try to visit both types of units but we always prefer our own specialty!

As for the future, console yourself in that after validation its only a couple of years and you can apply to NAV Canada......:oh:

[Jerricho]

its only a couple of years and you can apply to NAV Canada......

Or not, if you believe the rumours.

[Fidgell]

I meant in terms of experience..... but lets hope the Spring rumours are true, and Im still hearing this - let the next exodus commence!

Dont let this put anyone off here, NATS is an excellent employer.

:} Do I smell something???:yuk:

[baconmaker]

i applied in feb 2003, had 1st tests june 2004 and got interview tomorrow, 19th oct. it is a long winded process and i'm cacking my pants. got a wife and 2 kids to think of coz it will be a drop in cash to start off with, just hope the salary soon hits the 32k mark before the house gets repossesed!!!!
can any body give me some good vibes on how good it gets? i'm 32 in december so this is sure to be my last chance, got no aero experience and don't know how i've got as far as i have.
just read some threads on what i'm expected to know and don't think i will have to worry about moving to the south, hope the lucky underpants can weave their magic one more time!!!!!!