Balpa & Klm-uk

[quickturnaround]

Are the KLM-UK drivers happy with the way BALPA is representing them in their talks about the future in KLM, KLC-UK, or BUZZ?
I wonder if any UK-driver likes to comment on this, since VNV /DALPA tells us that the deal presented has widespread backing by UK-drivers and BALPA.

I wonder if that is really the case or not.

Greetz, QTA.:confused:

[MerseyView]

There are certainly a lot of worried pilots at my base. Big changes are due to occur on 1 NOV & there are huge concerns by the pilots on no end of topics, not least job security, pensions, bases, equal pay & terms & conditions. Our union (BALPA) called for this date to be put back due to Company stalling tactics during meetings but to no avail. This led me to believe there would be a ballot for industrial action to make the company treat our concerns with some respect, but with only weeks to go nothing has happened. Consequently a lot of us are very worried and are wondering what is going on, as there has been no news of any breakthroughs yet in any of the issues that are unacceptable to us! There is no wide-spread support for anything but industrial action from all the pilots I'm flying with & a lot are thinking of moving companies as they don't see a decent future for themselves in the new company!

Could you please show this misinformed info from the VNV/DALPA as I'm sure a lot of my colleagues would be interested in it?

[timzsta]

Is this an example of what happens when a small company gets taken over by a big one - ie Air Uk/KLM. Those that worked for the small company can sometimes end up getting a raw deal.

[Otterman]

I am a colleague at KLM. The discussions on this topic date back to April of this year on pprune. I realize that my perception is tainted by my position. But could you please explain how KLM uk pilot are getting a raw deal? If I understand the proposed deal, there are three options for the current KLM uk pilot workforce. I don’t know all the ins and outs, but from communications from our union VNV these are the options as I read them:

1) The KLM uk pilot, goes through the procedure to join KLM mainline. He/She joins bottom of the list as of 01-01-2003. He/She retains their present position, but work under the KLM pilot collective bargaining agreement. No later than 01-01-2005 they will have to occupy a position at KLM mainline in line with their seniority position. It is the assertion of the VNV that only a relatively small number of pilots from KLM uk will take this route.
2) They join a new company called KLC uk. Same pay and conditions as before. The operation will be integrated into KLC, so mixed flying of crews. As of a certain date, no new pilots will be taken on by this new company. This new company will operate Fokker 50/70/100 from its base in England throughout all of Europe through Amsterdam. At any time these colleagues will be able to transfer to BUZZ. Of all pilot positions at KLC 1/3 will be set aside for KLC uk pilots. This is commensurate to the present fleet numbers. Also part of the deal is that the present relative percentage of Captains Fokker 70/100 at KLC uk will be retained. The VNV expects most of these pilot to eventually transfer to BUZZ.
3) The colleague at KLM uk transfers to BUZZ.

I am sure that a lot of the KLM uk pilots are very disappointed to say the least at their company’s change in name and strategy. Not many of us want this kind of upheaval in our lives. But I believe that the new path also offers some good prospects. From what I hear KLM has a solid growth plan for BUZZ. I don’t know what the pay and conditions are at BUZZ in relation to KLM uk, but growth means a lot of new positions. I would assume the old guard will be able to finish their careers at KLC uk in the way they had planned. For the people in the middle to lower end of seniority at KLM uk, BUZZ could offer good career prospects. And for the adventurous ones a change to KLM might be of interest. You are more than welcome. And who knows where that could take you. Finally I assume that KLM uk looses a number of its pilots each year to the scheduled and charter airlines in the UK, and that will continue to happen at all the new entities. So all in all I think the package is balanced. Breaking open the seniority list at KLM would have meant the end of the VNV in my opinion. This is the first international merger of operations that I know of at a major. This is the deal on the table. This what the VNV has communicated to us. What has BALPA told you guys?

And as a frame of reference how is the integration of the regional operation into BA going. Are the regional pilots getting a better deal over there?

Regards, O.

[timzsta]

A most informative reply Otterman. I was asking if Uk guys were getting a raw deal - not saying they were, as I dont know. Should be interesting to see what the Fokker 50/100 drivers have to say.

There is still much work to be done before Buzz can grow and be seen a success anything like easyjet, Go or Ryanair, but signs seem to be reasonably encouraging based on this summers passenger figures.

[MerseyView]

Otterman, I will try to answer your queries as best I can. Firstly KLM mainline. Nothing personal but I and most of my colleagues don't want anything to do with mainline, your bases are in Holland and we all live in Britain because we're British. I would no more consider working in Holland as you would Germany or France or Russia. I joined a British company called Air UK many years ago & never once did I ever plan on moving abroad. Secondly, integration into KLC, 1/3 positions in KLC is not a fair representation of the size of KLM uk, we are bigger than that, it just makes time to command for our FO's that much longer. There has been no guarantees to us over what happens to us at our base if our aircraft is pulled out, are we then expected to move to AMS. We have a final salary pension, we have not had that guaranteed yet either. As for moving to Buzz, we have to indicate our desire to move in the next few weeks or the option is withdrawn, all this without any Buzz business plan released to us. Are they expanding? are there any new bases( a lot of us live hundreds of miles from the only current Buzz base at STN)? what are the new terms & conditions going to be ( currently we all share the same T & C's but they are not deemed suitable for a low cost operator)? Why can't we stay one pilot force & just be seconded to KLC or Buzz? Also we are told there will no longer be any UK recruitment, as we can't join the VNV that means ex KLMuk pilots under BALPA just become a smaller & smaller group until the management can just dictate any changes to our T & C's or pension etc & we are not big enough to do anything about it. How would you like to be shown a plan for your own extinction?
Believe me Otterman, we are very worried!

[S76Heavy]

Otterman, that position in mainline KLM you are referring to as "in line with their seniority position". Is that after they've thrown away their seniority by joining KLM at the bottom of the list? Or will their KLM UK seniority be taken into account?

Just curious, there's a topic on Seniority lists in the terms and endearment section.

[Otterman]

Short answer is yes. A KLM UK pilot transferring to KLM would go bottom of the list as of 01-01-2003. They would have to take up a position that matches their seniority by 01-01-2005.

As Merseyview already mentioned not many KLM UK pilots are expected to take this route. Most probable for the junior or younger pilot. Within KLC UK things stay the same, in that you keep what you have. Just no new pilots will be hired into this company, and 1/3 of the positions within KLC remain reserved for KLC UK pilots. New pilots will be hired by KLM mainline, and automatically be on the KLM list and would be assigned to fly for KLC. KLC UK would over time become an empty shell, with all its former pilots at BUZZ, KLM, retired, or they will have left for another airline.

As MerseyView mentions KLM has not presented its plans for its low-cost subsidiaries. We were just told that on October 2, 2002, our CEO would brief the unions on what is in store. Looks like BUZZ is going to be a sizable airline, and the thinking is that most of the KLM UK pilots will take that option. I hope all my colleagues at KLM UK find a good spot.

And no MerseyView I would not be pleased if I found myself in the situation you find yourself in. I hope for those who wish things remain the same as far as T & C's go. KLM UK has been static for a number years now, and the plans as they are presented at least show a way forward for the company as a whole.

I don't know what KLM's future will be. Are we to become BA mainland, Air France North, is the Sabena demise our future, or can we join a global grouping on our own strength? I can't control these things. I just keep paying my union dues and hope for the best. What kind of impact this deal has on what is to come will make itself known in due time.
Regards, O.

[driver1]

Otterman; as far as i am concerned it is one rule for one and one for another! when KLC was integrated into KLM they got at least 1/2 seniority some got full seniority which i understand caused subsequent problems, you CANNOT therefore expect KLMuk pilots to accept anything less than their Dutch counterparts.

I find it unbelievable and typically arrogant that the VNV and KLM can negotiate a deal to integrate KLMuk pilots WITHOUT consulting OR involving the very people it effects most i.e KLMuk pilots!! the deal that you you have quoted is the one worked out by KLM and the VNV, we the KLMuk pilots have accepted NOTHING and will negotiate our own deal thank you very much and if that involves industrial action then so be it!

A 1/3 ratio??? where the hell did that come from!!! KLMuk is roughly the same size as KLC therefore a 1 to 1 command ratio should be the only option.

We are being royally shafted in all ways, believe me i think KLM has stirred up a hornets nest and our sting is going to hurt!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Stop Stop Stop]

A good discussion with some informed replies. As a KLM uk driver, I agree with all comments posted by my colleagues. Morale is low....really low at present over the perceived shafting that we are all expecting. Otterman has given a thorough grounding on what has been offered as a career path, but as yet, nothing has been accepted or agreed- at least by the KLM uk pilots. I am aware that the VNV and KLM have made their own agreements on how WE are to be integrated. If only the management were as forthcoming to OUR union (BALPA) as they clearly have with the VNV, we might now be in a position where we could vote on a deal. Instead, the Management have stalled and provaricated so that we are being pushed closer and closer to the deadline of Nov 1st. In my opinion, we have exhausted all routes of negotiations and industrial action is the only option left to us.

Mention is made of most pilots expected to transfer to Buzz. This was possibly the expected intention, but recent developments communicated to me have imposed conditions which more or less make a transfer from KLCuk to buzz impossible. It has been proposed that the pilots can transfer to buzz at a rate sustainable by training of up to 48 per year. However, if a pilot transfers to buzz, they will do so keeping their seniority number (useful for getting leave etc.) but will go onto the LOWEST pay increment for their rank. This would mean that a captain with ten years seniority would by over £15K worse off per annum. Hardly a good offer. Also they would have to be considered as new starters for terms and conditions such as whatever pension is negotiated. Clearly, this will need to be seriously discussed by BALPA but in my opinion, if this is to remain then it will be unworkable. The only option for many will be a court case for constructive dismissal.

The potential of transfer to KLM is a good one and previously unheard of. However, it is really only of benefit to those who are (a) young enough or (b) junior enough as it will be an extremely long time to reach even a left seat of a 737. Consequently, the take up rate will be low. Present captains can expect to be demoted at some point until they accrue anough seniority in Mainline to regain their command.

Remember, we have pilots with 25 years seniority in our company which was taken over by KLM (something no-one wanted). They will now be more junior than the most recently qualified 20 year old Co-Co! Something to look forward to.

[SOPS]

So the VNV has "worked out" a deal for the KLM UK pilots, and not even discussed it with them? No!!!??? Not the VNV!!!!

[Otterman]

Driver1. In previous posts on this subject you have been one of the more moderating voices. So it makes me appreciate the emotion that much more. I reread most of what you have written on pprune.

In previous topics I have explained the situation (and major differences) between the KLC/KLM integration and what is happening now. KLC pilots already had a fixed right to transfer. Some crucial alterations were done to this original clause and it has left an open sore that has festered for six long years now. KLM and the VNV have no deal in place that allows other pilots from other subsidiaries to take seniority with them when they transfer to KLM mainline. KLM UK is not the only airline that KLM owns or controls. A pilot from Transavia or Martinair takes with them no seniority when he joins KLM. So this is not a situation of the “arrogant” Dutch mistreating the “foreign” KLM UK pilot group.

As far as KLM and the VNV negotiating a deal that involves KLM UK without involving its pilots. From my understanding BALPA was involved and consulted every step of the way. We as KLM pilots were also not involved, our union did the negotiating. BALPA’s involvement means the same thing to me. If they would see showstoppers they would probably have told the VNV. Or maybe there is a hidden agenda at BALPA, but that is between you and your union. Wouldn’t harm the majority of BALPA members if there were industrial unrest or worse at KLM UK?

That is where I think KLM UK pilots will have to look. BALPA is your representative. They are there to negotiate all the ins and outs that are involved in whatever choice is made. I think it more than reasonable that you at least keep what you have, but BALPA is the one that can make that clear to KLM. We were told that BALPA was not unhappy with the deal.

The deal between KLM and the VNV encompasses many more parts than the KLM UK situation. I realize for its pilots it is by far the most important section. But it is but a tiny part of a whole range of issues.

For the 25-year veteran at KLM UK I don’t think much changes. He can just stay at KLC UK and fly out his career. On top of that his options widen. For the senior First Officers a transfer to BUZZ could see quick advancement. And for the junior person the same applies or a transfer to KLM mainline might be more interesting. I can’t imagine a 25-year veteran switching to KLM, he could have moved to a UK airline a long time ago. So the analogy of that veteran being junior to a 21 year old in theory is right, but in practice not realistic.

One of my original questions still stands. How is the integration of the BA regional pilots going into the BA mainlist? Are the BA regional pilots getting full or partial recognition for years of service?

Sorry for the length once again, but I can’t seem to get my point across with less words. Maybe not even with this many.

Regards, O.

[Wet Power]

How would a KLM mainline pilot feel if, for example, you were taken over by Lufthansa at some stage in the future and placed on the bottom of the Lufthansa seniority list?

How would a KLM mainline pilot feel if he was then told he would be transferred, in the next two years, to a position within Lufthansa appropriate to his 'new' seniority?

Oh, and by the way, you have to relocate to Frankfurt.

Otterman, I am sure you are a smashing bloke, but their is just a hint of arrogance in your posts in what is a very sensitive subject.

So much for a united Europe!

[Ignition Override]

Let's hope you all don't go through what most TWA pilots are at this time, in the US. American Airlines/ Merger Committee (the AA union is APA), put most of the TWA pilots (ALPA union) below almost every pilot with American. Soon, about half of all TWA pilots will be on furlough-going back to hire dates around '93 or '94. AA's Merger Committee seems to rationalize this by pointing out the very bad financial conditions at old TWA, and the slim chances given TWA's survival by market analysts-as if it were the pilots' fault (they had given up around 40% of salaries to help it survive Carl Icahn's assaults upon corporate funds and his "rights" to all profits from 20% of airline's ticket stock-he owned this amount...). Certain TWA aircraft removed from flying, suggested by certain APA east coast LEC members, might have allowed even more American pilots to move to the captain's seat.

Nice way to treat your buddies. Much ignorance and arrogance were displayed by some of our people in a merger years ago.

Seniority is their mantra, when one former airline is allowed to exploit the other group. With a merger, under US law the resulting corporate entity is actually a very different entity. This means nothing to those trying to steal your captain (or FO) seat.

[Carruthers]

Indeed it is, along with whatever other working practices and privileges they have established, regardless of how archaic or discriminatory they may be. If retaining them means sacrificing others they will do it.

[Otterman]

Wetpower, your analogy is a bit wide of the mark. A transfer to KLM is not the only choice open to the KLM UK pilots. For the most senior people this is not the way they are going to go. In my previous posts I have explained the three choices open to a KLM UK pilot. Your seniority position with KLM UK has a huge impact on your choice.

No one is set to lose their jobs. The way I understand it switching from KLM UK to KLC UK would not involve all that much change, please tell me if I am wrong. In the least BALPA is responsible for making sure that there are no changes in T & C’s at KLC UK compared to KLM UK. This takes care of the senior people. It is true that there will be no growth at KLC UK, but like KLM that hasn’t been the case at KLM UK for a long time.

The other two choices offer another way forward. If a person switches to BUZZ it could mean fast advancement, and a switch to KLM is another option.

And as Ignition Override mentions things can be done a lot differently as well. KLM pilots are not taking away any seats from KLM UK pilots. No Captains going to KLC UK will be put back in the right seat.

I am acutely aware of the sensitivity on this subject. I realize that whatever I say is weighed down by my position at KLM, and the term arrogant is within easy reach. I wish my colleagues at KLM UK nothing but the best.

[Capt. D. Prest]

To answer Otterman:

I think he is asking a rhetorical question!!

The Regional integration into BA is not happening at all! In spite of negotiation about scope, there is NO move either from BALPA, or any set of management to bring the Regional side of things onto BA Ts and Cs and seniority list. For some reason, we do not get treated like the last acquisition of BA, that of CityFlyer Express. Instead, the management are imposing a new set of Ts and Cs, which they describe as being the best of the old Brymon and BRAL combined - except it isn't! There are a large number of sweetheart deals around, great outcry from the trainers, and the turboprop boys, as ever, are being royally shafted. The Final Salary scheme has now been closed to new entrants, and management refuse to give any assurances about its future for existing members. We have just been given new contracts to consider, except that there is a strange clause in the contract which gives the Company the ability to change any of it at any time, yes, I jerk you around not! Movement onto the BA master seniority list with its attendant Ts and Cs can currently only be done by normal application and interview. That is beside the point that we currently have 50, yes 50 ex-BA cadets working for us. These guys were told they no longer had a contract with BA after 9/11, due to hiring freeze. Our BA commandant, a Mr de la Foss, told us they were joining us as normal guys, bottom of OUR seniority list, on OUR Ts and Cs. We were saving them from the dole, he said, they had no further connection with BA, he said! Surprise, surprise now it turns out by a 'mistake' they were never issued Regional contracts. It seems that now, a year down the line, BA has decided to call them back (though they remain working for US) , and awarded them mainline Ts and Cs, and, to add insult to injury, they have been drawn into the BA final salary scheme, a benefit denied to many colleagues who were in the Regional Operation before and after them!!!!

Funnily enough, the Scope issue, described and discussed at length in another thread, seems to actually start BELOW the levels of some jets we already operate, and it seems from proposals 'leaked' out of the BALPA guys that we may actually not be able to progress to our own aeroplanes in the future. There is/was an attempt to put JUST our 146/RJ guys on BA Ts and Cs, but this has gone quiet at the moment. The actual operational integration is a complete shambles, making one ashamed to work for this airline at the moment.

The conclusion or message to the KLM uk guys is to fight every last friggin clause, don't believe a single word that management tell you, but when it comes down to it, and you prepare to grip your ankles and grit your teeth - have a jar of vaseline ready!

[quickturnaround]

Well well, I am happy with the way this lead is developing. I was afraid that the simple statement in the VNV that the KLM-UK pilots were relativly happy with this deal, was not really correct.
That is why I wonder what BALPA is going to do for all those pilots, who see their way of living being disrupted.

Offcourse VNV does not represent the KLM-pilots ( yet?). But the way KLM and VNV arrange this merge, can have a lot of future implications.

I am also very much worried about what will happen next. I hope BALPA will be strong enough to get the best possible deal for you guys.

Good Flying! QTA.

[xyz_pilot]

Otterman a question


When one of Europe’s big three buys KLM (and in the consolidating world of airlines that is less than five years away) are you happy to go to the bottom of their list?

[Otterman]

xyz_pilot. Again the short answer of course is no, I would not be happy to go bottom of any list. But that is but one of the choices we are talking about in this case.

This is not a new thought for us at KLM. It has been part of our landscape for a long time. Consolidation is something that will probably happen. Don’t know if your time frame of five years is as hard as you state. A lot is involved before we can get to that point. For some reason aviation is still not treated as a “normal” business. Otherwise consolidation would have occurred many years ago. National sentiments, bi-laterals, and a host of other complicated issues hold this consolidation back. Even the bastion of free enterprise is helping out its airlines with unheard of amounts of dollars.
In my fifteen years at KLM I can’t remember a government cash infusion into KLM, of course we have not yet found ourselves in such dire straits. The American carriers need this cash to survive, but it shows that aviation is somehow different.

At KLM we are acutely aware of our vulnerability. We are too small on our own. At the moment the scene is in motion with our North American partner Northwest Airlines (and codeshare partner Continental Airlines) making overtures with Delta Airlines, and Skyteam. I am far from certain whether the DOJ or DOT or whatever DO will allow this cooperation to go forward as planned. Let along the pilot unions involved (they have veto rights I believe). IF it does go through, it has implications for Europe beyond KLM. Will Air France/Alitalia and KLM find common ground? All good airlines, but management culture is quite different.

If they did, it would put BA in an awkward position. KLM is the only mid-size airline still in play. SWISS is closest to KLM in size but has got more problems than you can shake a stick at right now. It does not represent the same added value as KLM does. KLM brings with it a hugely attractive asset in the form of Schiphol Airport (lots of room to grow). Open skies with the US (antitrust with Northwest Airlines), we are fully part of the EU. It is a “rich” airline (if there is such a thing) in the form of large cash reserves. And at worst we are in a break even year (barring unforeseen circumstances). We can’t be bought out without the consent of our government. They own less than 25% of KLM, but hold a golden share which allows veto rights over certain decisions (like a take-over). Can BA afford to let Air France and Lufthansa walk away with mainland Europe? It would make BA’s future pretty limiting I would think, an open skies deal between Britain and the States is only a matter of time. Sorry for going off topic here.

It will certainly be possible that under the right circumstances KLM will be bought out by someone. The position of us employees at KLM will be part of that negotiation. And yes it is possible that we would have to join the bottom of a new list. It would be messy whatever the solution. I would not like it if I was told to begin anew at the bottom of a large BA list or Air France list.

But I have been trying to say that in the case of KLM UK pilots this is not the only option. If my choice was bottom of the list at BA or Air France or remain with a new KLM in which over time all pilots would retire of leave some other way or join a new company with different T & C’s but set up to grow, I don’t know how I would feel. We all have enough change in our lives without the company throwing a monkey wrench into it. But at least there is a choice here, let BALPA fight over the details that is what they are there for.

From the emails being sent to me, and from Capt. Prest post, I understand that BA is handling the situation a little different with their regional pilots. Certainly not any better to say the least.

Regards, O.

[driver1]

Otterman; lets just put the record straight shall we?

KLM and the VNV negotiated a deal where the KLC pilots get mainline t and c, part of that was the integration of the KLMuk pilots who , have no right to KLM but can apply, IF accepted they go to the bottom of the KLM master list, KLC uk is set up, the KLMuk pilots are FORCED to split from Buzz and placed in this "shell company", by your own admision klc uk will shrink and die as there will be no future in it, our pension is under threat, we are paid far less that you, there is no guarantee that should an aircraft be replaced on a route (MAN F100 to B737 for example) that the pilots based at MAN will get a change of aircraft type at base, therefore could and I suspect will be force base moved to AMS, KLC expanded post sept 11, we were forced to make pilots and ground staff redundant, there is NO guarantee of a transfer to BUZZ, even so many pilots are regionally based and have no desire to move to STN, BUZZ pilots have NO right to move to KLC uk, we are changing to KLM SOPs as it will be required that we mix crews with KLC, do you find it acceptable that a KLCuk Captain could be flying with a KLC First Officer who will ALWAYS have better T and Cs and ALWAYS be senior to the captain as far as KLM is concerned?

In all Otterman as I said before we are being royally SHAFTED, the deal that the VNV and KLM has put foward is TOTALLY unacceptable if not bordering on the down right racist!!! We deserve nothing less than the integration terms offered to NLM now KLC.

As you mentioned before BA is making an equal mess of its integration of pilots, i so hope that BA takes over KLM and BALPA screw KLM pilots into the ground, not only to the bottom of the list, but with crap T and Cs. You guys have laid down the ground rules, i hope you are prepared for the concequences.

There is a solution to this, you STOP being so damn right selfish and give the KLMuk guys the rights they deserve.

[Herod]

Otterman, you talk of the tremendous opportunities for pilots staying/transferring to buzz. As of the present moment no-one in the KLMuk workforce, and that includes the BALPA committee, has been given an inkling as to what the business plan is. What we are being given is "trust me..., I'm a Dutchman !". With all due respect, not a lot to base one's career on.

[Wet Power]

Otterman

First of all thankyou for taking the time to contribute to this discussion - it would be easy to walk away.

In respect of seniority I must disagree with you completely.

I was a junior(ish) Captain on the F100 when I resigned three years ago. I was also in the top third of the Air UK seniority list.

When I was making my decision to resign and join another company I thought long and hard about it. I listened to what the KLM management were telling us and did not see a very bright future for myself (despite my seniority). I moved in order to maintain my quality of life and give my marriage a chance of surviving.
If I had stayed I would be in the same position now and with minimal/non existant chance of transferring to Buzz (my preferred option).

Since I have moved companies 99% of what I guessed would happen has actually happened and I certainly do not regret moving.

In the time I was with Air UK it was never going to win 'Airline of the Year' awards but it certainly wasn't the worst by a long, long way. It was also generally profitable and had an expanding route network (albeit not involving Amsterdam).
KLM uk is but a shell of the former AirUK.

The VNV are only protecting their own jobs and I wish BALPA had even a fraction of their power but a bit of compassion and a degree of respect is not too much to ask for your future co-workers.

All the best.

Tot ziens.

[Otterman]

I hope that my colleagues at KLM UK will shortly get a lot more clarity on what the future holds. Don’t overestimate the amount of information we are getting at KLM. Through our union Internet site I found out that KLM will be holding this meeting with the KLM and Transavia unions about BUZZ (October second). At Transavia there is also a lot of unrest because of the situation around BUZZ.

I try to appreciate the amount of emotion involved for all concerned. I certainly don’t agree with all that is said, but everyone is entitled to airing his opinion and emotion. It is one of the great things about pprune; it can be done with anonymity.

I am sorry, but I don’t feel a KLM UK pilot is entitled to taking seniority with him to KLM. Breaking open our list is a no-go. I feel the same for my colleagues at Martinair or Transavia. I can make the mental leap that a KLM UK pilot would find it more than fair that he gets the same conditions as a KLC pilot as far as seniority goes. But the difference is like night and day, and extensively discussed in previous versions of this topic. Does this make me a borderline racist? Would take a pretty liberal definition of the word, and from a KLM UK pilot’s perspective, maybe. It certainly isn’t with malice.

As far as what KLM UK pilots deserve. I guess I miss the point. You want the same thing as the KLC pilots got? I infer that this would mean that KLM UK (and KLC UK) would stop, period. There would be one big list, with some ex-KLM UK pilots getting a quite senior position. My fifteen years place me around 600 out of 2000 pilots as a frame of reference. All pilots will be based out of Holland like they are right now. This is exactly what you don’t want. You don’t want anything to do with us borderline racist arrogant low-life’s. Let alone living in this horrible place.

What the VNV has negotiated, in my opinion, tried to take into account a little of everything.

There are huge holes in my knowledge, but I don’t quite understand why a KLM UK pilot cannot transfer to BUZZ (is this because of limited training capacity). From what was communicated to us, KLM anticipates the majority of the KLM UK pilots going to BUZZ. Once again the senior guys probably will join KLC UK, and the junior ones make the decision to either try KLM or go with BUZZ. I am more than interested in knowing how the details work out, please keep posting.

This integration is now beyond the stage that a discussion here will have any impact. I know that KLM UK pilots knew something was coming down the pike for at least 6 months. What if anything was done to prepare for it? BALPA was involved, I know the VNV initiated contact, and they were able to give input on behalf of our colleagues at KLM UK during the entire negotiation.

It is up to BALPA now to make sure that the upheaval in the lives of a KLM UK pilot will be kept to the absolute minimum. Make sure the T & C’s stay the same. And details like base, or aircraft changes are covered.

This situation is pretty unique. I don’t know of other situations that quite compare. We are talking about a cross-border merger here. The VNV has negotiated a deal with the input of BALPA that gives the pilots from one country more options, including joining mainline, than BALPA is shoving down British throats at BA CityExpress.

I hold my colleagues at KLM UK in high esteem. It is true that over the last few years KLM UK has become a shadow of its former self. I hope that BUZZ’s plans turn out to be as extensive as the rumour mill makes it out to be. It will widen options and at least offer a way forward.

Maybe you will get your sweet revenge in a few years when BALPA stick us bottom of the list (if there is ever a merger between BA and KLM). I certainly don’t derive any pleasure from the situation surrounding KLM UK and KLM/KLC.

I am not sure what I have left to contribute, I wish you all well.
Regards, O.

[mrshubigbus]

I left "Air UK" nearly 4 years ago. It was a huge decision to go having served with them for many years! During the early 90s this company had a very bright future. A growing network from Stansted which was several years ahead of the low cost carriers,
routes from Gatwick, a "goldmine" in the making at London City and many other good routes. Where are they today? All gone!
The management were just not stong or bold enough to "make it work"! They caved in to KLM and created Buzz which hasn't added a single aircraft since its launch a couple of years ago. Ryanair and easyjet have more than doubled in size during the same period and have a "very clear" strategy. Some things don't change in so much as you just don't know what the next day will bring. It is exactly the same now as it was four years ago!!!!!
I wish I was still with Air UK operating 20 B737s with Sterling service out of Stansted, 10 BAe 146s operating very high yield routes out of London City etc etc. Oh and the occasional visit to Amsterdam!!! What a shame!

[driver1]

Otterman; please understand there is nothing personal to you in my posts, you do seem to have reaped the worst of my frustration!! It is appreciated that you do post here to give us a window to the other side.

I should point out that BALPA did not have an input to the terms agreed between KLM and the VNV, they were contacted by the VNV yes....... to be presented with the deal!! BALPA tried to initiate discussions before then but were told they could not talk until the KLC seniority and T and C issue had been resolved.

This week FVP has made it even harder to move to BUZZ, he has stated that any pilots transfering post nov 1st will lose their increments and have to have new T and Cs!!!!!! a Euro 25,000 loss to some people!

Believe me, we are having a rough time of it at the moment, last year when KLC expanded and we were forced to make pilots and ground staff redundant with the reduction of fleet size by 3 aircraft, this year KLC get the bonus of KLM T and Cs and salaries, we get our lives turned upside down and screwed!! It does feel like we are financing KLCs good fortune, that is the reason for my "racist" comment, the dutch are being protected and we are being forced to pay.

I am sure there are many fine and good people in KLM and KLC, and i truly wish them no harm, by the same i hope that my colleagues in KLM and KLC will wake up to the injustice being done here and support us in our fight.

[quickturnaround]

Right, a lot of things are clearer now, but what is BALPA doing now for the ex Air-uk pilots?
That is still not made clear. Are they still negotiating or is there now a fixed deal?

I Wonder and keep on wondering what will happen next?!:confused:

[MerseyView]

Both sides are still negotiating(?), still no acceptable deal, still no ballot for industrial action, another meeting today!

[Otterman]

Hello everyone,
Not sure if you guys know a little more. On our end, things at my level are still the same. The KLM CEO did have his meeting with the unions at KLM and Transavia on October second. This in regards to the re-positioning of the low-cost sector within the company. Something that will directly affect my colleagues at KLM UK. Not unexpectedly the unions had to agree to an absolute news blackout. So that is where we are at. Our union’s only communication with us on the subject said that no immediate action on their part was required, based on what they were told.
Regards, O.

[hvpilot]

Well,

For me as a Transavia-pilot, things are not so clear.
I have joined this company a few years ago, but now i am worried.

Driver1 stated that FVP puts pressure on the KLM-UK pilots by more or less forcing them to choose before november 1st. Otherwise they would have to accept a new labour agreement.
Could driver1 or any KLM-UK pilot explain some more about this?
Is this just a rumour, or did FVP dare to write this on paper???
(I sincerely hope that BALPA will fight for you!)

I worry that FVP might do the same with Transavia..that is split us up between BUZZ and a Transavia-charter-only company.
And that we may have to choose before we know anything about KLM's plans.
As Otteman said, there is a newsblackout.
I hope the VNV is not left in the dark.
Any news on the KLM-UK side?

hvpilot

[Flap40]

According to the companies offer, buzz pilots have until Oct 31st to decide to stay put, or move to KLM or KLCuk despite still not having any idea of the future plans/contracts of any of the companies. KLMuk pilots have until the end of December to decide but FVP has insisted that anyone transfering to buzz (but not the other way round) goes back to the bottom of the pay scale.
I think that Otterman and the VNV are going to be disappointed if they still expect to see F100 commands for KLM f/o's as KLMuk Capts are not going to be taking a pay cut of up to 36% to go yellow.

[ICURA?]

TO All Whom it may concerned.

Not all is well with in KLC either. There is a large group there that are very disadvantaged as well. The VNV has run one to many deals that are to the advantage of KLM mainline pilots at the expense of KLC pilots. The outcome .......both the chief pilot and chief instructor on the Fokker 70 have resigned their management positions to become line pilots.

[76-er]

Did they say why?

[seat 0A]

Oh, come on, Icura, knowing the ex- chief f70 personally, I can assure you that he hasn`t resigned because of any problems he would have have this deal.

Go stir in another pot, please.

[Long Haul]

The VNV assured it's members that KLMuk pilots choosing the KLCuk option will keep the same terms and conditions as they now have for the rest of their careers. It worries me to read here that Buzz is trying to give them pay cuts when they crossover and that KLCuk is trying to worm out of their pension responsibilities, especially because I have heard that from KLMuk line pilots as well. I don't think that they will be able to get away with either of those plans.

[hvpilot]

Flap40,

Does FVP mean this for everyone, and regardless if transfer takes place before or after nov 1st?

Long haul,

That's what i've heard too.
Strange that the VNV expects most pilots to transfer to BUZZ while at the same time FVP discourages this.

It seems that with FVP we now have 'a wolf in sheepsclothes'; because if thats what he is planning with KLM-UK/BUZZ, what might he do with Transavia?

hvpilot

[Colt44]

An unofficial internet poll on the KLM uk (Balpa) Forum is at present showing 91% (31 votes submitted) against the loss of Transfer Rights when moving from Blue to Yellow.

If this ratio continues and is repeated in the official ballot then it will be an overwhelming vote against the agreement.

[Flap40]

hvpilot,

That's it! If you want to go to buzz then you keep your seniority only for rank/holidays/redundancy etc. You go back to the bottom of the pay scale and god only knows what sort of pension!. FVP basically wants us all to join as new-hires on new contracts but does not want the expense of interviewing us! What he has probably not realised is that this deal makes easy/go a much more atractive proposition especially since the F100 is similar to the airbus in operation.

Remember that in the three years that he was at KLMuk we never got any communication from FVP that was not bad news. We never even got a "hi, I'm your new boss" memo. Respect has to be earned and he has run up a serious "overdraft".

The future's bright, but it's not blue or yellow ;)

[Stop Stop Stop]

Following the presentation by the Company to the pilots and the subsequent BALPA member meetings this week, it was decided to hold a consultative ballot conducted electronically (via SMS text) to allow the CC to gauge the members feelings whether the offer on the table is to be rejected or accepted.

Whilst this is obviously not a formal ballot for industrial action, it does provide both the company and the CC as a snapshot of the wishes of the membership. If the result is for a rejection of the offer then the BALPA CC Chairman will take the results to the company today and will start the ball rolling for further action as required by industrial law. Apparently, any action started prior to the TUPE split on November 1st CAN be continued after the new company has been formed with no jeopardy.

Voting ends in about 4 hours so time will tell.

[Nightstop]

Flap40
The future's bright, but it's not blue or yellowDon't let Herod see that comment, he won't like it ;) .
Good luck guys, look forward to seeing some of you on the A319 soon :).

The future's bright, in an orange sort of way :).

[Flap40]

Result of the (unofficial) SMS Ballot shows 95.4% voted to reject the companies offer.

BALPA meeting with the company this afternoon.

[MerseyView]

Otterman, if you, any of your mainline colleagues or any pilots from KLC, see the above results, please spread the word that, despite what disinformation someone at the top is telling you, KLMuk pilots are NOT happy with the current terms of the merger!

[Herod]

No Nightstop, the future's still yellow, imagine all those hi-vis jackets gathered around the brazier outside Endeavour House ! BTW, got the new car yet ?

[Fofioo]

Just in case anyone is misled by Flap 40's post. This was an official polling by BALPA of its members of the acceptability of the companys proposal.

86% of the BALPA members polled responded.

95.4% voted NO.

Never before on any issue has BALPA had such unanimous backing from the membership.

We await the companys reconsideration of its position, and failing that our offical ballot forms for industrial action.

The gloves are coming off, and beyond the transfer rights issue there are many other old scores to be settled.

[Flap40]

Yes, sorry if it was not clear. It was a poll/ballot (call it what you will) that was conducted by BALPA but is "unofficial" in the sense that another "official" postal ballot will be required before any industrial action can take place.

Hopefully this afternoons meeting between the Company and BALPA will give a positive result.

[bohpilot]

Otterman


There are huge holes in my knowledge, but I don’t quite understand why a KLM UK pilot cannot transfer to BUZZ (is this because of limited training capacity).

You are based in Amsterdam, and presume have a nice house and family nearby.

KLMuk has pilots spread all over the the UK, not only are we based at Stansted but at Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Humberside, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen.
Buzz is only based at Stansted ,so you can see that for the pilots at the other bases to transfer to Buzz they would have to up root their families and move.......

Hopefully you can now see why most of the pilots will not be transferring to Buzz....

[Otterman]

One thing that is not clear to me is what deal this sms ballot was against. What is it that gives the most resistance? Are we talking about the internal difficulties that KLM UK has in filling in its strategy for the future? Buzz, KLC UK etc. Or are the transfer rights to KLM (and the lack of seniority) the problem? Base re-locations? Operational integration with KLC? T & C’s within KLM UK or BUZZ? How detailed are the things that you have been offered?

I wholeheartedly agree that KLM management is going about this in a very ham handed way. They should be working out exactly what they want to do with the different market segments, and than sell it to the employees. At the moment it looks like they are trying to run before learning to walk properly.

The BUZZ plan is still too vague to plan your future on. As far as the integration of KLM UK/KLC that makes sense to me, but should not be rushed, as it seems to be right now. To be clear; the deal worked out between the VNV and KLM has my support, although the semantics within the “new” KLC is something that in my opinion can be talked about, it is also outside my field of view. If indeed the 1/3 share of reserved seats for “old” KLM UK pilots is not fair, it should be looked at. I have no power whatsoever to make is so.

Bohpilot, I do indeed live near Amsterdam, in a lovely row house with a lovely family. I grew up in Canada, and moved to Holland when I joined KLM; the rest of the family lives back in Canada. You are right those were my choices, but things are rarely as black and white as they appear to be. The pilot group at KLM is quite diverse. I wish that for you and the rest of our colleague’s at KLM UK things could stay the same, but I think that is about the only option that is not on the table. It is a company’s prerogative to close a base at anytime and retrench their business somewhere else. Air UK was a company that did a lot more diverse flying than KLM UK does. Basically the whole raison d’être for both KLM UK and KLC is to feed Schiphol. Change is coming, not much you and I can do about that. Would I like it if I had to uproot again? No. Would I? Hell yes. A job is something precious especially in these times.

I wish you at KLM UK luck. I believe the fight is where it should be. Let BALPA do their thing with KLM, it will lead to the best result. For myself, I have no preconceived wishes on what is to happen, I am just following developments with great interest. As I believe it will have repercussions for the future.

Just for your information the VNV has started up its industrial action committee at Transavia. BUZZ, although not the major issue, definitely plays a role here as well. So things are not quiet on the labour front within KLM group.

[Ringo]

Balpa to commence ballot for industrial action 29th Oct.

The latest chapter in a long story of gross mis-management by FVP!:confused:

[hvpilot]

Just read the following news in our newspaper De Telegraaf today(short version):

Travel organisations angry about reorganisation Transavia.

They think that our scheduled services will be split between KLM and BUZZ. The low cost Basic Air service will be given to a new company, together with BUZZ too. The new name will probably stay BUZZ.
Then Transavia will stick to charters only.

The Travel organisations think FVP will anounce this next week.
They are angry because they can no longer receive any commision pay.

Any news about this from BUZZ-side or KLM-UK-side?
How about the ballot from BALPA?

hvpilot

[ooizcalling]

What about the 'age issue' ? In the intergrated final product, whatever they end up calling it, will all ex BUZZ and ex KLM UK pilots aged 56 and older be forced to retire immediately to be compatable with the KLC (VNV forced) early retirement age ?

[Barney Stubble]

A minor aside - but relevant for a few! - from the very intriguing main thrust of this topic:

Should appropriate terms and conditions be thrashed out to everyone's (dis)satisfaction and the merger of KLMuk and KLC goes ahead in the near future - what will happen to the 15 or so KLMuk/Cabair sponsored cadets currently in the system, awaiting the KLMuk call up from early next year? Of which I happen to be one of course!

Will these guys and gals join KLC with an option to transfer to Buzz, KLC with no option to join Buzz, or will they join Buzz direct, or what?

I realise that current KLMuk pilots know little more about their future at the moment, but it would be nice to know that we are considered in the scheme of things.

This is a very specialised question that only senior KLMuk type persons could address, but I would much appreciate an answer on this forum because there is no other channel of communication between we sponsored and our sponsoring company (KLMuk).

Yours, Barney

[driver1]

Barney;

KLMuk is the AOC holder for BUZZ and as such will continue to exist in the near future, what is happening is the "blue" pilots are being transfered to KLC.

As a KLMuk sponsored cadet I presume you will be employed by KLMuk (BUZZ) when you have finished your training. however if you start with the company after the 1st Nov 2002 you will have no transfer rights to KLC, you will prob go direct onto the 146 or 737 instead of the F50.

I do not have any concrete information regarding cadets, the above is a best guess senario!! good luck...........

[Pies]

As a hopefull employee of Buzz in the near future, I have been reading this forum with great interest. Can anyone offer anything positive as to the outcome of this KLMuk KLC Buzz situation?

[MerseyView]

The ballot papers for industrial action should by appearing through our letterboxes in the next few days! BALPA members only with membership (I believe) about 80% and rising.

[hvpilot]

Regarding the article in the telegraaf and the question from Pies:

FVP stated in a memo yesterday that, as stated before, plans were shown to the unions under embargo. The unions had a positive feeling regarding this meeting.(VNV said there was no immediate concern).
Wednesday 30 october FVP will anounce the plans for Transavia (and probably BUZZ).

hvpilot

[quickturnaround]

The dutch Telegraaf (newspaper) announces that FVP will leave Transavia in order to concentrate on the expansion of BUZZ, now is this a rumor or a fact???????????:confused:

[SOPS]

Would be really nice if someone told ALL of us what the hell was going on. All these people just making descions that effect all of us, but telling us nothing:( :(

[Otterman]

Hello everyone,
I am sure most pilots from KLM UK are searching the internet at breakneck speed trying to find out what is up. As mentioned Transavia is holding two informational sessions today telling the folks who work there what they can expect. In another thread the KLM press release of today is mentioned. I hope in the meantime KLM UK management also found the time to tell my colleagues something. I know that most of you at KLM UK are coming up on a very important decision in the next day or so. Found this on a news site in regards to what FVP sees happening for BUZZ in the next few years. Substantial growth. Certainly the most of any segment within the KLM group of airlines. Now if BALPA can get a good deal for all the present group of pilots at KLM UK, I believe that there is scope for something positive coming out of all this upheaval. Hope I am not being to optimistic. Anymore news on the ballot for industrial action, and what it is that BALPA wants to achieve?
Regards, O.


This is off a news site
KLM sees Buzz fleet expanding to 30-40 aircraft in 3-4 yrs from 10 currently
KLM Royal Dutch Airlines spokesman Bart Koster said Buzz expects to expand its fleet of aircraft to 30-40 in the coming 3-4 years from 10 now.
He said that Buzz will start renewing and expanding its fleet by replacing its eight BAe 146 aircraft and two Boeing 737-300s with six new Boeing 737-300 aircraft.
Negotiations are also in place with lessors and manufacturers for further fleet renewal, he said, noting that new additions could be either 737-300's or Airbus aircraft.
Buzz is currently in talks with several UK airports on establishing a new UK base and an airport in France or Germany would also be a possibility due to Buzz strong market position, he said, not ruling out other locations to establish a base.
The spokesman said that KLM maintains its forecast for Buzz to break even by the end of the year.

[Aviation Trainer too]

Here straight from the Buzz site:

30 October 2002

BUZZ SET FOR MASSIVE EXPANSION IN THE UK AND EUROPE

New bases and fleet for UK’s third largest low cost airline

buzz, the UK’s third largest low-cost airline, has announced aggressive expansion plans that include rolling out three new bases in the UK and Europe. The first new UK base will be Bournemouth Airport and flights will commence from March 2003 with seats on sale this Autumn. A second new UK base and a mainland Europe base will follow by the end of 2003. In addition, the airline’s seat capacity will increase by over 50% by the end of 2003 as the carrier replaces its current BAe 146 aircraft with larger 737-300 aircraft.

Speaking at KLM’s Investors Day in Amsterdam this morning, Floris J van Pallandt, CEO, buzz, said, "We have an unswerving commitment to developing the low cost market through implementing an ambitious growth strategy thus capitalising on the dramatic upsurge in consumer demand for low cost travel which has seen the dynamic of the industry change dramatically in the last six months. Coupled with an evolving business model, consistent year on year growth and 30% increase in passenger volume this year, we are well poised to continue our position as one of the leading low cost carriers in Europe."

Today’s announcement also sees buzz de-merge from KLM uk from 1 November 2002. buzz will then operate as its own fully fledged limited company within the KLM Group.

The deal with buzz is Bournemouth Airport's largest ever and will see over 200 jobs created as a direct result of the carrier’s intention to base two of its aircraft at the airport initially. buzz estimates that it will put 750,000 seats into the market from Bournemouth in its first year, through a selection of European routes.

Tony Camacho, Chief Commercial Officer of buzz, said "We have been courted by a number of UK airports but ultimately we felt that Bournemouth had the strongest offering. We believe that it’s a superb regional base for us to grow the South Coast market and offer flyers a welcome alternative to London Gatwick. Bournemouth is already the UK’s fastest growing airport and is therefore ideally suited to become another low-cost, stress-free gateway to Europe."

buzz is the UK’s third largest low cost operator and is the second largest low cost carrier in France and Germany. buzz currently flies 24 routes in Europe in France, Germany and Spain. Last year the airline carried 1.4 million passengers. By the end of 2002 buzz predicts it will carry 1.8 million flyers with 86% of bookings coming via the internet.



Be among the first to be notified of our new destinations from Bournemouth Airport by joining our Bournemouth buzz mail group.

Just enter your email address here

For full details on Bournemouth Airport see www.flybournemouth.com.

[Herod]

Otterman, a little update for you. The ballot papers arrived at members homes today. Yes, it could be a good move for all concerned, the expansion of buzz. What the pilots are asking for is to be able to keep the right of transfer between the two halves of what was once the one company, to allow everyone to end up with the career they want. As of now, transfer yellow to blue is blocked, and transfer blue to yellow looks like requiring the sacrifice of all pay and pension increments. They have (had) a very loyal and hard-working pilot force, a little common sense and compromise and they could still have, to enable the expansion to go ahead, to everyone's benefit. Incidentally, the information given to the staff does not feature the 30-40 aircraft you found on your news site, we only have the information Aviation Trainer Two posted.

[moleslayer]

The fleet uprating came straight from the horses mouth.......well, Elfrieke's actually :D in the crewroom this morning, Doug was there too. She said that although the news hadn't been made public yet it was OK to spread the news around.

[Stop Stop Stop]

So, that is it now. The TUPE transfer has taken place in the wee hours of this morning and KLC uk is now born.

All the time the pilots are still fighting for better terms and conditions post transfer and the strike ballot continues (for about another two weeks).

The company say 'little change' at present, but time will tell.

[quickturnaround]

Well,well FVP is going to manage Buzz after all and will leave Transavia.
So what is up next???

Greetz, QTA:confused: