PPL Instructors wearing collar and tie

[nonradio]

What do folk really think about the need to wear a tie when PPL instructing. I think it's unecessary pretentious foppery. So there.

[pondlife]

So do I.
Unfortunately though it's a condition of my employment.

[Pilot Pete]

I can't quite see why it should be regarded as pretentious. You will find workers in many industries wearing collar and tie, look at school teachers for one. My 5 year old is taught by a male teacher who wears a tie every day. It sets a tone, weather you like it or not. I view this similarly to a PPL instructor - my 5 year old is not going to get a professional qualification from this man, but he and the system he represents don't see this as a good enough reason for him to turn up to work in jeans. What would you think about a instructor who turned up in heavy metal rock gear with died hair and piercings all over his body? I would be enlightened enough these days to see what he instructed like and how good his handling skills were, but, you may find that the owner of the school/flying club is not willing to take the risk of losing customers due to the somewhat extraordinary appearance of his instructor. Students are paying a lot of money over for this insruction so the school will want to look as professional as possible, it's all about showing a professional image and instilling confidence in this safety critical industry. Perhaps you don't need a tie to achieve that, but psychologically it helps.

PP

[Mister Geezer]

For someone who is intending on getting their FI rating in the next few months, the topic of attire is one that I have thought about and I don't have any problems with wearing a tie. IMHO I think any instructor should be wearing a collar and tie. I would intend to pitch up to meet my student looking smart with a collar and tie and shoes as polished as they would be for a interview or flight test. Your student (don't forget customer!) is far more important than the CAAFU chap who sat beside you on your IRT, because the student is paying for the privilege and is ultimately paying you! So if you made an effort to look tidy for your IRT then you should be making even more of an effort for your PPL student.

First impressions are of vital importance, especially for anyone who is looking to part with cash and large amounts of it too! Smart instructors, tidy clubhouse and a clean fleet of aircraft will create the right impression for the average punter who wanders in on his lunch break to find out about getting a PPL or even just an hours gift voucher for his nearest and dearest. To cut it short I feel that a commercial pilot is regarded as a professional and not many highly skilled professionals turn out in a T-Shirt and Jeans for work.

Call me 'old school' if you want, but I have heard customers who say that the very least they expect is a well turned out instructor - I can't agree with them more! :)

Happy instructing folks

MG

[RobinHood]

My opinion is that a shirt and tie is a must. Its smart, looks professional and as Pilot Pete said it sets a tone, whether you like it or not.

I've seen some really scruffy instructors and to be honest I wouldn't be seen with them sharing a beer, never mind teaching me to fly. One guy I worked with when I was an AFI was so scruffy I quit the job to disassociate myself with him.

Being smart and well presented is an absolute must. I can't imagine turning up to teach in jeans and a tee shirt. How could I expect my students to take me for real???

The day I can't be bothered to don the shirt & tie I will hang my headset up.

Can I ask the guys who think shirts and ties are pretentious what clothing they consider suitable for instructing? Where does the suggestion of it being pretentious come from?

[StrateandLevel]

If you are new to aviation and wish to make a career of it then you have to create the right impression If you are inexperienced and scruffy, you are poorly placed.

If you are old and experienced you can be like Richard Branson and where what you like. Its all down to who needs to impress who.

[nonradio]

Well chaps, who said the Alternative to a collar and tie was a
T shirt and jeans, or automatically scruffy? Surely professional attitudes are not dependent on a tie? An instructor can give all the right impressions in a corporate polo shirt and/or sweat shirt with a logo etc, though I have to admit drawing the line before we get to blue jeans!But that is my personal prejudice. If the tie was so important then make the students wear ties and a uniform to promote his 'professional attitude'. The student pilot learns good airmanship and a responsible attitude from the way his instructor behaves on the ground and in the air, not from his dress sense, and no amount of gold braid is going to hide any deficiences there! Would it be less 'professional' to wear a flying overall?
The suggestion that it's pretentious is simply that it is apeing airline flying uniforms (which I suspect we are all in favour of) when in all probability you are flying a 2 or 4 seat piston single. When I first started flying, the instructors I knew did not wear ties at Flying Clubs, but then most were PPLs themselves and a lot of them did it for fun albeit hours building toward the magic 700 hrs; I would say therefore that I was 'old school' rather than MG! I have worn ties instructing, but when in a position to dictate uniforms I ditched ties, though I have never prevented folk from wearing them if they so desired.I would say that the wearing of ties has become a marketing issue - so be it, but let's not deny there is an Alternative and pedantically say ties=professionalism
Good Luck MG, but don't rely too much on that tie!

[muppet]

I instruct for fun at the weekends as well as fly commercially in the week.

Shirt and tie; a must.:cool:

[Loony_Pilot]

I think its important to look smart and presentable, I dont think its neccessary to wear a tie though.

How about spending all day in the cockpit of a badly ventilated Cessna 150 on a hot summers day dressed like you're going to a wedding... its uncomfortable, fatiguing and doesnt help anyone a great deal. After a whole day of that wearing a tie wont make you look any more presentable!

Looking smart and professional is of course essential, but some degree of practicality is required.

[Pilot Pete]

I would wear rather more than a shirt, tie and trousers to go to a wedding, but if that's what makes you feel uncomfortable and fatigued then perhaps when that happens is the time to hang your headset up for the day? Just a thought.

PP

[SKYYACHT]

I accept the need to present a professional image to both customers and visiting regulators, but I would offer this in an effort to mainatin some balance. :)

At a recent course that I attended at the head office of a certain aircraft manufacturer based in Seattle, ALL of the instructors wore smart, pressed, Chino style trousers, and good quality polo shirts bearing the corporate logo. This presented a professional and unified appearance of staff, and enabled them to instruct in a relaxed, (perhaps informal atmosphere) - which their own feedback had shown was what the Students preferred.

The tie, as far as I am concerned is no more than a strip of coloured cloth designed to hide my shirt buttons, and I would scrap it tomorrow if I could. However, I have flown with instructors who wear them with no problem. If my employer required that I wear one as part of a corporate image, then I would, reluctantly do so. I take the point about hot days too.

From a Health and safety perspective, perhaps we should consider wearing clip on ties, bearing in mind that there are many parts of an aeroplane that can trap a flapping tie?


Blue skies:)

[BEagle]

Smart casual. In other words company polo shirt with logo and tidy slacks or chinos. No braid, no t-shirts, no jeans. And definitely no ties, particulalry 'clip-on' ones (whatever they are).

[pulse1]

Wearing a tie has got nothing to do with tidiness. In fact, most of us look much less tidy when we wear a tie because we can't tie it properly and get it covered with soup stains.

Wearing a tie is a more to do with convention and fashion. Yes, maybe some want our instructors and airline pilots to look safe, reliable and conventional.

Personally I would rather see a clean, pressed shirt with an open neck and I wholeheartedly agree with Beagle.

One of the few modern trends I welcome is that it is becoming more acceptable not to wear a tie, even with a suit, and I welcome this with enthusiasm. Now I'm the boss in the company I work for, I do not wear a tie :cool: ..........unless I have customers visit because it's conventional! Urrggh! :confused:

Along with caravans and dangly things in cars, ties are pretty close to the top of my hate list.

[whisperbrick]

shirt and tie normally,get rid of the tie when it gets hot:

flying suit = k**b

gold braid = total k**b

[Mister Geezer]

I have seen many PPL instructors and know many as well. I have never met one who has not worn a tie when ever he/she turns up to work. Therefore after years of seeing this, it has become the norm for me to see a tie than not see one. This includes people who are wanting to join the airlines and those who do it during the weekends for fun. Even the chaps that I know who fly for the airlines still wear a shirt and tie on their days off to instruct! However personally speaking I would still wear a collar and tie even if I was the only one doing so!

None of us would probably make any fuss if we are required to wear ties in an airline environment and to be very honest with you I don't see how PPL instructing should differ in the slightest!

MG

[Send Clowns]

I must admit I work (as a ground instructor, not yet as FI) at a school that also does a lot of commercial training, but certainly I think it best we wear ties. However the people working for the little PPL-only club could probably get away with a club polo shirt and slacks I think.

Note that many (not all, we do not insist) of our commercial students wear a simple uniform both in groundschool and on the flying side. It does start them in a professional feeling, plus to their own self-esteem it distinguishes them as career pilots from the hobby pilots without seeming too pretentious.

[cessnababe]

Interesting comments guys. But what about women instructors wearing ties? I started my instructing career at quite a casual school where nobody made a fuss whether you wore a short and tie or jeans. i always wore a tidy shirt and dark trousers but in the summer I wore a polo shirt and shorts. Very comfortable.

Now I have to wear the uniform and wear a white airline shirt and black trousers. There is a company tie, but I am in two minds about it and have dispensed with it this summer, as i do not think it adds much to my image. However, I do think it is essential to make that first impression of being tidy, clean and organised. These days when even lawyers' firms dress down on Fridays, I think the tie is less important.

What is important is to be CLEAN and not smell of BO, halitosis or cigarettes. My advice to instructors is not to eat curry, onions or garlic, not to smoke and not to drink too much coffee before flying. If you tend towards overheating ditch the tie and make sure you use plenty of deodorant. The confines of a C152 cockpit do not tolerate any bodily odours or breath problems, so make sure you take the extra strong mints with you!!

[BEagle]

"I started my instructing career at quite a casual school where nobody made a fuss whether you wore a short and tie or jeans."


Short and a tie......that would have got your students' attention, CB!! :D

[juswonnafly]

When I first started instructing I wore a tie, then after a while I realised that the students don't, the club owners don't, so why should I ?!

Now it depends on the season, in summer what is wrong with an open neck pilot shirt and black or dark blue trousers? In winter I wear a tie just to keep my neck warm with a pilot jumper!

Even in the PPL industry we wear a 'uniform' of some sort.

I believe that there is a need to look smart but this does NOT mean that a tie must be worn.

He's not often wrong, but BEagle's right again !! :D

JWF

Hmm. just read CB's comments.........

Nice crisp white blouse, black lacy bra, black short skirt with black seamed stockings and suspenders (with company logo of course!)...............now that WOULD be nice :) :p :) :p :p

But hey, never mind me, what would the female instructors wear?:D :D :D

JWF

[A and C]

I find a tie a flight safty hazard ,if it looks good then it is to tight around the neck to be comfortable when maintaining a good lookout.

If it is lose enough to be comfortable then you look like the shirt is two sizes to big.

The tie is the first thing to come off when I sit in an aircraft.

[essouira]

I don't wear a tie and neither does anyone else where I teach. I used to work somewhere where everyone wore ties but most of the instructors there were only interested in moving into airlines not in being instructors. Where I am now, everyone wants to instruct, there's no gold braid and the students get excellent service from a very professional team who are committed to teaching PPLs.
I asked all the students that I met this week what they thought and several said that they had visited other airfields and chose us because we seemed to have a passion about flying and a practical approach - not one thought that we would be better instructors if we wore ties. I then asked a colleague who works somewhere where they had to wear ties - and all his students said that they didn't care whether their instructors wore ties as long as they cared about their students and were professional in their approach to flying and teaching.
Not scientific research, I know - but maybe all the people who are adamant that ties make them look better should seek their students' opinions.

[Loony_Pilot]

re: the comment about Airline pilots wering ties and PPL instructors doing the same

The cockpit of an airliner is (relatively) comfortable and spacious and has air conditioning and temperature control.

The cockpit of the C150 that I have spent 250 hours in throughout the summer is very cramped, very very hot, badly ventilated.

Now I have no problem whatsoever with anyone choosing to wear a tie, I dont think its prententious in any way, simply that being over dressed or uncomfortable is not helpful towards providing good instruction. My job is to teach people to fly, not to look fabulous doing it. I just think that wearing a tie is irrelevant to anything really.

Lets look smart and professional and wear clothing that is SUITABLE to the aircraft that we're flying.
We want a relaxed, comfortable, safe, professional environment to fly in, lets allow oursleves to dress in that manner too!

[imabell]

it takes more than a tie to be a professional pilot, having said that, appearance is obviously very important to the customer and your employer. if the company wants you to wear a tie then so be it. are phantom or superman ties ok??? (just kidding)

neat and tidy casual clothes do not detract from the image of a company.

our instructors wear company supplied work shirts and trousers. the shirts and jumpers have logos on the pockets, with no tie, and we haven't had any complaints in fifteen years.

i do think it is pretentious of some pilots when you to go into the local town and see instuctors in reflective taped flying suits with badges that say instructor and wings and other paraphernalia hanging off them. some companies in australia have their new instructors wear epaulets. a bit over the top as well.

you don't see many grotty instructors around, all of the blokes i know in instructing are proud of their jobs and if you are the same then it follows that you shoud be proud of your appearance. :) :)

[Say again s l o w l y]

A shirt and tie are a bit pretentious. They tend to alienate students from instructors and ground staff from flying staff.
There is a need to be well turned out, but not stuffy. We are teaching people to enjoy their flying. It's supposed to be fun, lets not get above ourselves here. If both you and they are relaxed.... Makes sense really. Smart casual, as has been put before is in my opinion the best way to look smart and be comfortable.

As for needing to wear a tie to put over a sense of professionalism. If you can't do that by your actions and manner, then you are in the wrong business.

[BEagle]

Quite so. You might look as dolled up as a model from the Transair catalogue in your pretend-airline uniform and gold braid - but unless you can teach in a professional manner, you won't cut the mustard as a Flight Instructor!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am with BEagle - smart casual.

If its not a service flying unit then a flightsuit is totally knobish.

Similarly flying instructors should not wear braid of any kind as there is no ambiguity about their authority onboard their aircraft.

I *do* think flying instructors should pay more attention to clothing/equipment though. We base many assumptions on the fact we are going to crash. In which case I would choose not to wear synthetic fibres next to skin, would like to have my mobile phone on me, would be grateful of a litre or two of water, and as darkness fell I might be considerably happier with my coat on.

I've seen plenty of flying instructors dissappear over quiet isolated terrain with nary a thought of what a chump they would be after executing a daring precision Forced Landing on the only suitable bit of land for miles...

WWW

[Crepello]

Did my PPL at a school with a relaxed & friendly atmosphere. Some instructors wore an open shirt or poloshirt which looked just right. Others wore collar & tie daily, smart but a little OTT. The only rule was that instructors had to wear long trousers - understandable, but I did pity them when the temperature passed 40 degC.

All students are different, but my 2p-worth is that if I'm in vacation mode (t-shirt & shorts), I'd prefer not to fly with someone who looks like an extra from Reservoir Dogs. (Would much rather fly with someone else, in her bikini! :p )

[essouira]

I understand your point of view but find that my students get distracted easily and would certainly find it hard to concentrate on flying if I were to turn up in my bikini. So I compromise with a flying school logo on my polo/tee shirt and smart navy shorts (summer) or slacks/jeans (winter). Personally, I have no problem with teaching in a bikini but would feel duty bound to charge "EXTRA", I'm afraid.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'd like to have seen *my* students faces if I had turned up in a Bikini... ;)

Mind you after a couple of the parties in Jerez I could well have turned up dressed in nothing more than the TV room curtains, but thats another story. :)

WWW

[Up & Away]

Are you all flying with clip on, safety ties??

[BEagle]

If you need to stoop as low as wearing a 'clip on safety tie', then clearly the tie is being worn in an inappropriate environment. Clip on ties, good grief, how appallingly common!

[compressor stall]

Ties?

Good lord, have not worn one in over 3000 hours of commercial ops, pax and freight. Have worn one once in the past 5 years.

Love the tropics!

CS

[flyboy6876]

Well, as one of your customers, may I put my two bobs worth in.

In my working environment, it is becoming less common to see people wearing ties. I am a consultant and most of my customers are moving towards polo shirts / open neck cotton shirts with the company logo and slacks. I tend to dress to match my customers and, even through winter, wear a company polo shirt. I consider myself a professional and do not feel that I am under dressed considering the climate here.

Given this, I would not expect to see my instructor appear with a tie on when it is 40 deg on the tarmac, and the cockpit is going to be a darned sight warmer. This is simply ludicrous. Our instructors all wear open necked cotton shirts and dark blue slacks. This is neat and IMO comfortable. I do not think less of their professionalism because they are not wearing a tie.

[Long Beach CFII]

I work in the States and I can say that it completely depends on the student you are teaching...ok i'm a pragmatist, but if s/he wants to see a shirt and tie I will present myself with one.

It also depends on the dresscode of the company you choose to work for.

[idle stop]

Actually, the flight suit does have its place.
I've recently started instructing again in a small two-place heli. The only stowage is under the seats. (No access when seated!) I have found that my specs/sunspecs/mobile phone get in the way when they are in my pockets and my flight board and maps are serious lose article potential.
Said articles could all be stowed in leg pocket of suit, except flightboard, for which substitute small kneeboard, or use flight suit kneepad.
So I'm seriously considering getting out one of my old suits....worn in both military and civil employ....but minus the regalia if its just instructing work.
And BTW, they are Nomex, so offer added protection.
Agree with many of the other comments. Dress smart:act smart. But smart doesn't need to be formal.

[Michael Whitton]

It really does depend on the company and the style of student you are teaching. Realisticall i like the feel o the tie and ****** bars... makes me feel like i've earn't what i'm wearing but admittily living in australia it can bet pretty hot... general rule of thumb is that if it is hotter then 30 degrees the tie can come off.

I think the professional look instill more confidence from the student in the instructor.. especially at the ab-initio stage, and the professional look as a commercial teacher gives the student something to look up to

[Crossedcontrols]

Speaking as a previous customer, I gained the impression that the uniform was for the benefit of the instructor, to differentiate himself from the 'punters', to let the student know who's boss. Most of the experienced instructors I flew with preferred casual wear. The little Hitlers strutted about with their shiney shoes, shoulder braids, and ties, grasping their clipboards. I'm not saying every uniformed instructor fitted this description, far from it. This was the impression it gave me. I chose not to fly with them. Our school let the instructors wear what they wanted, only one instructor did the stiff shirt and tie routine. I believe in my case the pilot student relationship was not helped by the uniform. I preferred to sit next to someone dressed as I was, rather than one that looked like a policeman. I don't share the belief that the only tidy clean attire is a white/blue shirt with tie, black/dark blue trousers and shiney black shoes. But this is only my point of view.

So I suppose I agree with nonradio, from the customers perspective

CC

[Flyin'Dutch']

Well there is a time and place for everything!

Not wearing a shirt and tie does not equate to being scruffy and cr*p instructing!

There are obviously some folk out there who find the attire a nice comfy blanket - customers and instructors alike!

One thing is for sure: s&t is unlikely to upset anyone but may make for a formal and stale atmosphere.

Whether that is always the most conducive to having a good time and learning a lot is open to debate.

MHO of course.

FD

[charterguy]

Shirt (or NATO jumper) and tie is acceptable for PPL instructors. Gold braid however, looks ridiculous in anyting smaller than a Golden Eagle or Navajo. I think most people are happy to see their instructors wearing a shirt and tie. But I have a feeling that the real issue here is not about that, but about wearing the gold braid as well. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[cinman]

Lets not forget that we're (actually, in my case "hoping to be") all professionals, and as such we deserve a small degree of respect from our students. Uniform is all part of the professional, clean-cut image which I feel all people, no matter what their employ nor walk of life, tend to wear appropriate, professional clothing - its the uniform?

The other aspect is that of perception. Two people, side by side, one wearing baggies, etc. and the other in shirt/tie, etc. You subconciously make a whole host of assumptions re: these people you've never met in a split second or two - and my bet is that I'd rather give my training bucks to the shirt/tie one?

Just my thoughts ...

[essouira]

It's an interesting point you make but when I chose my first instructor I rejected the shirt and tie guys because I thought they were intimidating and just interested in putting me though a sausage machine. I (like most PPL students) was learning for fun - I had no interest in becoming an airline pilot or being taught by someone who wanted to be one or wanted to pretend that he was teaching me to be one. I chose people who seemed to have a passion for aircraft and flying and teaching - and none of those were kitted out with ties ! My views haven't changed much over many years of learning and teaching. I'm not saying that instructors with ties are no good - just that it seems a totally impractical get-up for working with light aircraft.

[martinbakerfanclub]

Sorry WWW, but you mock flight suits in one breath, and then go on about safety and thoughts of post crashing in the next?

Thats a little contradictory is it not, when you consider the fire resistant properties of the flight suit?

I'm with Idlestop on this one; i often wear my old flight suit ( minus the military badges it once accrued ) as its a great place to store odds and sods and my extra pair of prescription glasses.

Dont see where the flightsuit=kn*b argument really gets validity; only perhaps if its worn by some 20 year old ppl with an f-14 tomcat patch on is such berating really necessary i think.

But thats not really what the argument is here now, is it?

[bcpilot]

Not at all necessary...

Who says flying has to be a stuffy, "professional" activity?? Many people fly because they want to go up and have a blast in the sky with their little c 140!!!

I trained at an airport where the instructors wore jeans and t shirt, the students were trained to be excellent pilots (mostly retirees with some extra cash, and some kids looking to go into the bush, as well as some ag spraying interest) I'm sick of the attitude that all aviation must be airline-oriented. The origins of aviation are far from this... that daredevil spirit of the first aviators has been replaced by starched and pressed clones of the perfect airplane "operator".

My instructors wore jeans, and I still developed excellent habits and good flight discipline. I'll wear collar and tie for pasenger confidence when it is required, but otherwise, I'm going to be comfortable.

[Flyin'Dutch']

The longer this thread is in circulation the smaller the divide gets.

May be shortly the casual look may be more 'en vogue'

Hurrah!

FD

[bcpilot]

I was mad when i found out that I had to cut my hair, shave my beard, shower, quit certain alternative passtimes, and move out of my tent if i wanted to be a pilot. Good bye, haight ashbury! :(

On the other hand, I feel pretty damn cool in my shirt and tie, and last night i was in the pub and saw a bunch of f 18 pilots come in. DANG! do i ever want one of those nifty flight suits. My heli friends all get to wear them, but if we have them, we'd look pretty darn silly, and of course the mockings might bring back those junior high memories I've kept repressed for so long.

[koogar]

I enjoy instructing immensely and although it was an aid to my hour building, I would have chosen to do it anyway. I love it and will do it until the day I have to stop. I believe teach people at PPl level is all about instilling the basis of learning and enjoyment. I tell my students, whether they have commercial aspirations or not that at this level flying should be two things and if either is missing perhaps they should reconsider continuing their course of train. I believe their flying should be safe ( as in good airmanship and awareness, procedures and checklists, and forward planning and hopefully recognising situations and dealing with them before real problems arise) and fun. They enjoy the experience and have a positive and relaxed air to the learning environment. I think as PPL instruction goes a relaxed dress code it a good thing. I believe in people being smart and tidy, its important to give credibility, but in dressing casualy we are setting a more relaxed tone in an already stressful and tense situation for many students. How many students turn up in collar and tie. A PPL qualification is a gentle introduction to flying, which should teach and inform, and develop certain skills required to fly, and to find out if a person actually enjoys it and wants to pursue it further. Also the point made early on about about teachers and schools is not really a relavant one. Students and teachers dress the same. At school we are teaching children about a certain level of discipline, respect, and presentation in a working environment. Learning to fly is not and shouldn't be considered a working environment. Now I do agree that at a professional level a collar and tie is much more important, but i firmly believe its something to be avoided at PPL level. Enjoy it and learn. One interesting fact, naming no names and being as honestly objective as I can, the one flight school I have worked for that insists on a collar and tie, were the worst flight school you could wish to attend. From an inside view point I can say that while some instructors were very good, all were inexperienced and the vast majority of my collegues didn't give a stuff about the PPL student and basically used them to suit there own requirements. The training was poor, but at least they wore a collar and tie. The equipment at the establishment, in terms of A/C, whilst plentiful also left a lot to be desired. I got myself out of this place, because although I love instructing and needed to build hours at the time, it wasn't a place I felt happy to be associated with. All show and no substance. I went to a small friendly flying school and everything returned to normal. Part timers did what they could and made efforts for their students and gave encouragement and help. One day a new recruit joined our fraternaty, a collar and tie wearer amongst the midst of polo shirts, and even after being there over a year, he was the worst and most dangerous instructor you could find. Ignorant arrogant and self opinionated. but he did wear a collar and tie. Does that tell us something. Relax and enjoy your PPL flying and make it a safe and orderly, but calming and friendly experience. One last thing, this is something I have experienced and will leave for you to ponder. What would you prefer, clean or collar and tie. I have had many clean tidy casual instructors, but only in the collar and tie brigade have I found ones shall we say less than clean and with a certain odour. Personal cleanliness and being presentable and not exclusive to wearing a collar and tie.

[essouira]

ok - so that was a ridiculously long post from koogar- but I must say it made an awful lot of sense to me !

[koogar]

Your right, I was so bored, half way through a twelve hour night ops duty. Still that post took up half my time. What does it matter.

[TRF4EVR]

seems kind of ridiculous to me. But the customer is king. Wheres my clip-on?

[flyboy2]

Here in Africa ,where the cockpit temperature can soar
to upper 30's ,it's total lunacy to even think of a tie.
In coastal areas the humidity levels are very high too.

You bunch in the colder northern climates can keep your flapping ,gravy-stained dangling tie.
You surely must agree that in & around aircraft they present more danger than "good look" potential.

However a neat white "pilot"shirt with navy or black or even khaki trousers with socks & proper shoes still looks good;
provided all staff at a school/club wear identical kit to bond the staff-group together

A brass name plate is the only other embellishment required in my humble opinion.




:) :) :D

[pholooh]

Judging by the responses here, it is no wonder why the flight training industry, especially small schools, is struggling to attract students. Remember to a new comer aviation is a glamorous industry( the un ifroms are all part of it). I have always wondered why people choose to go to big name schools despite their higher costs and it's due to the falling level of professionalism.
Remember that flying schools are businesses. Most students expect professionalism in a flight school and in today's society a shirt and tie is the first sign of it. The first way to get customers in any business is to be professional and presentable. Flight training is an expensive undertaking just like buying a house. If b4 a potential buyer comes to inspect a house for sale you say " I'm not going to tidy up the house, so it looks ordinary, plus i'm just going to were shorts and no shirt", then you know what the obvious outcome will be.
This is no different in the flight training industry. Remember joe Public's idea of a pilot is a grey-haired with a neat black uniform(TIE INCLUDED) rolling a leather case down the terminal.
I did my intro flight with a PPL instructor who was dressed in a shirt and tie, and that didn't prevent me from getting hooked on flying.
Remember pilot's uniforms, flight suits and bars are the kind of things that wannabees have on their wish list.
And if I may add (on a lighter note), member of the opposite sex seem to find men in uniform kind of sexy (:D :D :D .
Remember that in this society, professionality is judged first by appearance. you might be chuck yeager, but there is a very good chance your next customer thinks chuck yeager is some republican senator!!
food for thought

[HeliGaz]

just had a quick peep into the forum and had to make a post.

i'm an even lower form of life than most being a HELI instructor!

i always wear a tie, always a clip on( you think planes have a lot of spinning bits!) and always dress in natural fibres.

you look a plank in marks and sparks asking for 100% cotton trousers and shirts but it is better than being shrunk wrapped in the a/c!

i also wear nomex gloves when flying, a hangover from learning to fly, does anyone remember quite how sweaty the conrols on the students side get?!

in summer the tie can come off and go to shirt sleeve rule and in long trousers it is not a problem in any of the little perspex bubbles i fly over 700 hours a year in!

[Hanger from Pans]

I support pholooh 100%, well said !


HfP

---------------------------

Life is not Bananas !!

[Irv]

I see there is a posting on the flyer forum which would suggest some prospective student would welcome an instructor in ONLY a collar and tie.... someone there apparently want to learn in the nude! :)

Nude Flying (http://www.flyer.co.uk/forum2/read.php?f=1&i=5773&t=5773)

[stellair]

NUDE! ........... F**K the air taxi off .........anyone offering FI(R)?:) :D :) :O :p

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have always taught in either a grow bag or a collar and tie. However I see nothing wrong in polo shirts of similar AS LONG AS they are uniform. Everyone wearing the same monikered polo shirt, name badge and trousers would be acceptable I imagine.

Let the professionalism atmosphere come from the language, the bearing and the deeds of the instructors.

One week I was being charged out at £75hr for PA28 PPL
instruction wearing my own combination of uniform & CWFJ at a PPL school.

The next I was being charged out at £160hr for PA28 PPL instruction wearing my own combination of uniform and CWFJ at an Integrated school.

In the final analysis the professionalism isn't related to the dress code, nor the price.

WWW

[average bloke]

No wonder instructors find it hard to claim their role as that of a 'professional' if 48% of the voters on this issue (presumeably instructors) vote for jeans and nose rings. In every other job I have had I have worn a suit and tie in order to portray a professional image, so why should instructing be any different?

If you want to be a bohemian, go paint pictures for a living and but a pack of gitannes. (Apologies to all you french instructors.)

[long final]

Did I miss the jeans and nose ring option??

Personally an instructor can look smart and professional or a scruffy runt in anything, it all depends on the person and their attitude.

Myself, I would prefer dark trousers and a well-ironed shirt, opened necked.

[spitfire747]

my ex cfi used to turn up in blue jeans and a t-shirt, i and all the other instructors had shirt and tie on.

overhearing what the cfi's trial lesson said makes me agree with most on this forum.. insstructors are professionals and should dress as such.. shirt and tie for me everyday !

['I' in the sky]

Image and professionalism:

I have worked at three schools so far, the first was shirt, tie and gold bars, at the second, trousers and polo shirt were fine and at the third back to shirt, tie and gold bars.

The first was teaching modular from PPL through I/R, in the US.

Could somebody please tell me what is professional about a schools owner or marketing staff lying to students about the balance of their accounts, the availability of instructors or examiners etc ?

Also what is professional about having an instructor staff of which 90% were not properly qualified to fly commercially or instruct in that country, or about instructors who file IFR flight plans on the strength of UK IMC ratings ?

Or about sending students on illegal solo flights without endorsements from properly authorised instructors ?

Or sending students and renters flying in aircaft which are out of hours, telling them that they can be flown on a 10 hour extension when that is actually illegal in that country ?

Or most of the instructors not even having the legal right to work in that country ? Funnily enough I believe one of them even ended up in jail, no doubt still wearing his gold bars.

I could go on but I won't because it's obviously fine if the instructors all wear shirts and ties ! And believe me flying at a latitude of 35 degrees there has to be a good reason for that. It's called trying to hide something with overkill.

The second school was a fairly typical UK flying club where trousers and polo shirt were fine. Well I assume they were because they supplied the polo shirts. So what is wrong with smart but casual in that type of environment. Despite the future ambitions of some, the majority of people involved in club flying are doing it as a leisure activity and private flying is part of the leisure industry. There also has to be a practical side. What is the point of wearing a white shirt knowing that by the end of the day it will have additional permanent decoration courtesy of dry wipe pens, grass tie downs, dipsticks etc.

My current school is again shirt, tie and gold bars and that is what I would expect at an integrated one. Its what people, particularly those from airlines, want to see when they come visiting, so let them see it.

Have I got something against shirts and ties ? Absolutely not, I love them whenever it's the right thing to wear. But wear them properly. For those who consider a shirt and tie always implies professionalism either when on you or those who you deal with, consider:

If I visit you and am expecting you to be wearing a shirt and tie and you are wearing a polo shirt I might be a little surprised but I will hear you out. Why am I expecting you to wear a shirt and tie anyway, do I know everything that your job involves ?

If you are wearing a tie but the knot is one of those which is vertical down one side and sloping down the other rather than a decent winsor I am not going to do business with you, the image suggests you don't really know the best way of doing things.

If you are wearing a shirt but it is not ironed I am not going to do business with you as the image suggests you can't organise and complete what really needed doing.

Some shirts are designed to be worn with ties and some without. Those designed to be worn with a tie look absolutely soooo NAFF when worn open collared so be careful when you take the tie off in summer. The image suggests you might be a Medallion Man.

If you appear at first sight perfectly presented, albeit possibly in what somebody else has instructed you to wear, but call me 'mate' when you don't even know me...........

[lady in red]

So what about the students who turn up smelling of horses, or whatever they have been doing before flying? What about the ones wearing totally unsuitable clothing for a flying lesson -eg ehite designer jeans, high heeled boots, skimpy top showing rolls of white midriff? Or the guy expecting to fly a C152 wearing a fur lined mock flying jacket and white leather gloves? Why do we not decree a uniform for students too? dark trousers, trainers (not white) and warm pullover or sweatshirt (also dark so it does not show oil etc)?

I am in favour of wearing whatever portrays the correct image for the circumstances so if we are teaching for a professional course then the instructor and the student should look professional. But should women wear ties (I have asked this before) or does it mean they are trying to look like men? If you are doing a tailwheel or seaplane rating then jeans and jersey or flying suit may be more appropriate for the instructor and the student as the practicalities of keeping warm must prevail.

[WestWind1950]

clean and casual, that's my vote!

I have flown with many schools, both commercial and non-commercial, both in the USA and in Germany, and NO WHERE did the instructors wear ties!! Did I think them less professional? no!

Flying is also a "dirty" business... do a proper outside check and get your pretty white shirt all filthy... no thanks.

And as for the students... they should be informed BEFORE their first lesson, that they should wear comfortable shoes, even sneakers if need be, and comfortable clothes!! emphasising COMFORTABLE!

I sometimes visit my school during my free time, dressed in nice shirt or blouse and jeans, then get asked by the school to jump in and take over a training flight or something. No need to drive home to change!

So, that's my opinion and, btw, even our people in our CAA don't run around in shirts and ties :E (but yes, they do wear clothes heehee)

Westy

[Baseturn]

Personally I have no problems wearing collar and tie as I was very much used to it in my previous job. I think it puts you in the right frame of mind and dressing smart makes you feel good and also says to other people that you care about your appearance which says a lot about a person.

Secondly, you are a professional and selling a service to your student, if my instructor turned up for work looking like he just got out of bed I would question the quality of the product and the quality of the delivery! This would no be fare as the instructor has spent a great deal of time and money to get to the position of flight instructor but it's the way we all think.

Thirdly most of us are looking for an airline job and we will all have to wear a uniform then. The flying instructor is as much in the public eye, perhaps more so and it is just as important to present yourself well.

So yes folks I think it is a must, look good, feel good and you'll do good

:ok:

[WestWind1950]

if my instructor turned up for work looking like he just got out of bed I would question the quality of the product

NO ONE is saying that they would look scrubby.... wearing a shirt and tie does not necessarily mean clean and NOT wearing a shirt and tie doesn't mean looking like something the cat dragged in.

Thirdly most of us are looking for an airline job and we will all have to wear a uniform then.

that, too, is not true. There are many instructors out there that do it just for the joy of instructing, often holding down other full-time jobs. I experienced many hour-building instructors and I didn't like their approach (sorry if I generalise here... and THAT would be something for a new thread I think). They didn't care much for the needs of the student, they only wanted to build hours.....

What you wear does NOT show whether you are good or professional or not.

My humble opinion.

Westy

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Does anyone remember Gordon Baxter's(of Flying fame) "mystery shopping" story, in his excellent Bax Seat book? He visited airports were he didn't expect to be recognised and dressed up as Joe Average. The schools that made a good impression and thrived were those whose staff were well turned out, had well-kept premises and clean, well-maintained aircraft. The slobs with the tatty portakabins and the down-at-heel aircraft were, one and all, failures.It provoked pages of letters and debate in "Flying" and made for thoughtful reading. It should be compulsory reading for every CFI, school owner and FI.
regards
TDD

[FullyFlapped]

I'm not an instructor : I've been taught by quite a few of them, though, and I have to say that - just as in business or any other walk of life - if you take a prat and put a collar and tie on him, all you get is a prat in a collar and tie ! It doesn't magically improve his performance.

However, some people feel better about themselves when "dressed up" : and feeling good about yourself is, generally, good for your performance in whatever you're doing.

I personally don't do ties very often (even with a suit), unless I'm going into an environment where it's expected - I'm just lucky, I don't really have to wear one.

However, there are a good many people who - still, even today - see a tie as "professional" business dress. Others, like me, couldn't really care less. I wouldn't turn down an instructor for not wearing one, but there undoubtedly are some people who would. Therefore, the bottom line has to be - in any business - why piss off a percentage of your punters when there's no need ?

FF :ok:

[Vortex Thing]

I have never seen any school in UK or South Africa anywhere where instructors do not wear a white or blue shirt and black or blue trousers be they teaching CPL or PPL. I've instructed at three schools and flown at around 20 regularly either whilst training or since some based at international airports others at small fields.

Every instructor who taught me wore a a flying suit or a shirt and tie and most usually bars too.

I think it embarrasing that people would not want to wear a shirt and tie and call themselves professional pilots.

I feel it essential that the public can differentiate instructors (myself included) not only by bearing, manner etc but also by uniform. If you want to wear a polo shirt then go and be a life guard at the local swimming pool, or play polo.

I expect my doctor, lawyer, dentist, banker, etc to wear a tie and they do. Hey even the guys stacking shelves in Waitrose wear a tie how an earth can any professional feel that it is acceptable to not wear a shirt and tie.

It is this sort of pinko lefty softly softly american rubbish that is leading to the changes in society today that are less than desirable.

Sorry just had to sit on the fence for that one :)

So that'll be the pin pulled.

[FullyFlapped]

Vortex,

Just have to ask - because now I have images in my head which won't go away - what is it about your "bearing" which "differentiates" you ? Is there perhaps some special walk, or secret stance, which is picked up on the FI course ? Could you please describe the relevant physical characteristics, or let us know if any special implements are needed ? (only please be gentle - I'm having trouble typing with these tears in my eyes ...)

FF :ok:

[reynoldsno1]

how an earth can any professional feel that it is acceptable to not wear a shirt and tie.
aaaaahhh ... the triumph of style over substance - my lawyer doesn't, my doctor certainly doesn't AND wears a skirt t'boot - and come to think of it so does my banker ... most of the controllers I meet don't wear ties to work either - rank amateurs,eh?
Brown shirts, black ties and boots - very fetching...:ooh:

[Darren999]

Hi all,

I think I may get slammed for this. I train where the tempreture get's a tad warm! I train in a helicopter which sometimes feels like I'm sitting in a green house. Students need to feel comfortble with there instructors on a one to one basis, I don't really feel people judge me for what I wear. I reguarly save my students lifes when things start to get interesting, shall we say. They then don't care what I'm wearing when they shout "YOU HAVE IT!!" and you show them everythings ok., in your clam, collected manner, where as perhaps inside your screaming, oh my god.. They must feel comfortable with you, I think is the biggest thing.
I train in shorts and a polo shirt, it's comfortable for me. Well that's my 2 penny worth for what it's worth.

Darren

[WestWind1950]

I think I may get slammed for this

not from me... I agree with you.

I guess it also depends on whether you teach at a "fancy" commercial school or "simple" club environment.

Westy

[Vortex Thing]

FullyFlapped: Quote unquote Oxford English Dictionary

bearing = a persons general social conduct, esp in manners, dress and behaviour

So what is it about me that differentiates me well all of the above defintion I would hope. i.e. not turning up unshaved or unshowered, not 'not' turning up, being generally courteous and providing solutions before even being asked to, showing the establishment in a good light whatever other pressures are present, always having time for the customer/client even when you are at the end of a 14 hour day for which you have been paid for 2 hours of it, not calling clients 'mate', 'darling', 'love' etc, saying good afternoon/morning/evening/bye, always thinking and planning ahead, always seeking more knowledge, further experience and never assuming that there isn't something to learn or take away from each and every minute of the working day.

Whilst I am sure that there are things missing, the point I am trying to make is that dress is a part of this because we are by nature visual animals.

If you took a wonderful steak and sauce bernaise not to mention a bottle of Chateau Lafitte and liquify it it still tastes reasonably similar (accepted texture will be different) but it doesn't look anywhere near as appealing.

If we think of our wives, husbands, boyfriends or girlfriends; if we take them and make them live in a pigsty for a week then though they are the same person if we were meeting them for the first time then we would see them differently. The reality is that whilst apperance makes no intrinsic difference to the product perception will override that for the majority of people.

Perception sells products and pilots/instructors anyone with a commercially oriented business is selling a product to a client. The bottom line is always what the client wants and pays for.

Oh and in answer to where did this get learnt. Not on the FI course its a nurture-nature issue that begins at prep school and with parents and finishes up with university, BRNC Dartmouth, RMA Sandhurst, RAFC Cranwell or wherever else life takes you it is not a course that you take it is your whole essence, bearing is what defines you.

If you genuinely cannot tell the difference in how somebody speaks, deports themselves and behaves from observation and interaction over a reasonably short period then that reflects on you rather than on them. I also assume that you drive a 1992 Skoda because it gets you from A to B doesn't it, I also take it that you live in a caravan because it provides warm, secure accomodation without wasting money on all that unnecessary rubbish that estate agents make us feel is important like location, amenities and the like.

ReynoldsNo1: Apologies I forgot to add 'or female equivalent' to my post but as for the triumph of substance over form then that is your subjectivity speaking. You say your lawyer and doctor do not wear ties well not withstanding the female equivalent if they don't and you think that acceptable then that is your look out. Would I describe them as rank amateurs well sorry but yes as I for one would not engage their services and no most of my friends and family have a similar outlook. Then again I wouldnt send my children to one of these modern prep schools which wears polo shirts as a uniform rather than a shirt and tie either it is bad enough that too many schools are mixed these days but that is another debate entirely :)

Your ball....

[scubawasp]

I think if your supposed to be a professional then some sort of uniform is in order, just like any training, continuity is key.

The only thing I'd disagree with is the tie, it has no place in the cockpit.

But what is so badly wrong with shoes like DMs that do not mind oil and petrol, black trousers so your casual wear does not get ruined and a white shirt (or whatever top is appropriate to what climate your in) and during the winter the NATO pullover to help keep you warm.

Clothes may not matter for the quality of teaching, but bring a professional image and help with identifying your instructor(s)

Then again a PPL hired one of our A/C and turned up as mentioned with 4 gold bars draped on each shoulder. As I don't bother to wear them I felt very HUMBLE in his presence:uhoh:

[reynoldsno1]

Vortex Thing
Well, I guess we know who put the pom into pompous....:ok:

[Vortex Thing]

Ha.

If you really believe that someone is pompous for wanting the standards of our society that are clearly in decline to be maintained then hands up, I'm guilty.

IMHO the reason that the balance of power is shifting in Europe politically and commercially is due mostly to the erosion of these standards and the acceptance of mediocrity which starts in our schools and is portrayed by people who feel that dressing down Microsoft style is the way forward.

If we remove all outward signs of professionalism on the pretence that only the substance matters what do the next generation strive for when everyone looks the same, sounds the same, eats the same and has the same entertainment. At a guess mediocrity.

This is why our brightest and best dissapear off to countries where they are rewarded better for excellence rather than just be mediocre in comfortable shoes here.

So when we can't get any high quality British Engineered products, fly abroad for medical treatment and import just about everything just because we did not want to seem stuffy or 'pompous' by having standards and competition in society our economy dives from the point where it was at the turn of the last century to a point where we have little or no influence on the world stage and become puppets to the United States of Europe but at least they won't think were 'pompus'.

Oversimplified.. Maybe
Mountain out of a molehill...Maybe
But it takes many drops of rain to make a river...
:ok: :ok: :ok:

[mad_jock]

I always used to wear a pair of blue PRIMARK chinos and a white cheap shirt. With no tie in one establishment and a tie in another.

Reason:

1. it was cheap, trousers were 4 quid a pair and shirts 5 quid.

2. you didn't need to think in the morning.

3. Trial lessons the punter has an image of what a pilot looks like. If you don't fit that image they get nervous and you have sod all chance of selling a PPL afterwards.

4. Parents of kids spending alot of money like to see the image and like to think that the money is well spent.

5. On a hot day it was by far the most comfy thing to wear.

6. Makes you different from the student so security types seem to treat you different.

7. Your a sales person. You have to fit in with what joe bloggs thinks to extract the money out of them.

Once you have started teaching them it dosn't really make a difference. You are on the next stage of the instructor student relationship.

Personally i would wear the same stuff even if it wasn't required purely because of the sales side of things

MJ

[FullyFlapped]

'Tex old son,

Just a little too much, I'm afraid. You see, truly great wind up merchants know when to pull back from the brink of the absurd, to leave the faithful reader with at least a little seed of doubt as to the legitimacy of the ranter, even when face value says he/she is most certainly a cretin. Never mind, I'm sure you'll develop nicely over time, although your spelling and grammar both require attention.

Anyway, my butler thinks you're a fake, so you must be ....

FF :ok:

[Vortex Thing]

Fully Flapped

Why is it that because someone poses an antithetical view to yours you feel the need to challenge it quite so rudely rather than just state your view and maybe even cause a writer or another reader to change their stance when you show them something in a light they have never seen before.

I will actually admit that if you, or anyone were to think deeply about it, you may see that what I am saying isn't untrue, maybe not politcally correct but hey it's just my opinion.

Now if someone has a well thought out, coherent view or logical argument that they wish to share then isn't that what these forums are here for!

If on the other hand you decide to retort
even when face value says he/she is most certainly a cretin. Never mind, I'm sure you'll develop nicely over time, although your spelling and grammar both require attention. and thus pitch headlong across the line of departure in an attempt to enter a battle of wits would it not be reasonably fair if were both sides were to be suitably equipped?

Pistols or swords, Sir?

[WrongWayCorrigan]

Ties aside, I know at least two male instructors who think it's ok to teach dressed up as women. One in particular wears an ill fitting ladies wig. Apparently he's a good instructor, but who cares?

[cubbuster]

I have always tried to judge people by what they do, not by how they look or say. When learning to fly I had several instructors. The best of the bunch was friendly, always on time, fully prepared and organised (in spite of the flying clubs unique concept of organisation) and meticulous in his teaching. He was also inseparable from his jeans and T-Shirt. The worst worked for a large and well-known training organisation and always wore a uniform. He made no secret of the fact that he was only instructing while waiting for his airline job and frankly it showed.

As my father used to say, "never forget that spivs and con-men always wear suites".

[goaround7]

I'd say whatever fits your market/clients but please, even (or perhaps especially) if you are the CFI, not four stripes, when you don't have an ATPL.... That really does p!ss off people who've put the study and hours in for their fourth stripe.

[Mu Beta]

I think the students feel you're more professional if you wear a "uniform" and it gives them confidence in you. Where I learned some instructors did and some didn't and it was quite obvious that the ones who did got more students asking for them.

[sam white]

I taught completly in the nude once. But then she was my Girlfriend, and come to think of it we weren't in an aeroplane or in fact doing anything to do with flying.

Oh well, think I'll go back to my Vodka now.

[FullyFlapped]

Cubbuster,

As my father used to say, "never forget that spivs and con-men always wear suites".
Somehow I suspect your father was referring to "suits".

I think we'd all spot spivs or conmen sporting a collection of soft furnishings ....

Sorry. I'll be popping off for my lesson at Miss Prim's School for Picky Pedants now ... just hope she's wearing her collar and tie !

FF :ok:

[Lou Scannon]

Many years ago I used to be checked by one of American Airlines retired "originals". He flew for them in WW2 and could even tell stories about flying right seat for Captain Ernie Gann.

Unfortunately, "Franks" experience did not extend to sartorial elegance in any form-indeed, he always looked like an unmade bed.

The policy at the Flight Academy was that instructors wore ties. One day another instructor looked at him and challenged his dress code. His tie was, as usual, covered in food and coffee stains and hanging around his mid-chest.

Frank replied by agreeing that the rules called for a tie but added:
"There ain't nothing in the rules that call for it to be clean ...or done up!"

Since none of us is ever likely to be in a position of strength like Frank, I support the tie (Clean and done up) philosophy.

[foxbat43]

At the school I taught at it was expected of the instructors to wear ties in the winter time but when summer rolled around we wore a summer shirt with open neck for practical reasons in the hot SA sun.

Partly this was to set the standard. As an organisation we are in the business of teaching both private and professional pilots. how will they know what is accepted by the industry both in terms of dress and behaviour if the example is not set by those people who they look up to.

The students do not have a uniform as such but wear flying overalls. They even wear eppaulettes that show were in the course they have progressed to. Not because it's funny or pretentious, but even at that point to get used to, on a small scale, what will be expected of them as profesional pilots and job seekers.

my 2cents worth!

[glider12000]

i`m currently doing my PPL and i`m in shirt and tie as is everyone else on the course

(Leeds University - Aviation Technology With Pilots Studies)

[cavortingcheetah]

:(

I absolutely deplore the sartorial slobbishness of so many pilots who treat their uniform with a greater disregard than they would their gardening blue jeans. It is a disrespect to oneself to dress down and to blob through airports as though the meatballs mean nothing. But as for students; I would have their heads shaved completely and let the length and excellence of their professional experieince be indicated by the magnificent munificence of their locks as they sprouted forth again. Unless, of course, the student were a woman.
I always used to wear white leather gloves, in ZA, in summer because of palm sweat and in winter in the UK because of the cold, cold yoke on The North Sea Route.
This had an added advantage, especially in the UK, but also occasionally with ex Hunter pilots. These fast jet chappies would profess curiosity as to whether I was ex RAF, of whatever country. This allowed me to bashfully admit that I was not, but that possibly I had flown for The Fleet Air Arm, the ones that do carrier landings where the landing length available is about the same as the runway width at Upington or Mildenhall.
A rather lively discussion as to what constituted a slow jet then usually followed.:E

[clear prop!!!]

As a complete aside...but on the subject of what not to wear...

I was in LAX the other week and passed a number of US flight crew wearing Airline issue leather bomber jackets!!

Now is THAT pretentious or not!!..but hey!, that's America for you!

On the subject of shirts and ties, my vote is yes. Instructors may not be paid as a professional, but they should at least look like one. But PLEASE, ...no stripes or wings :rolleyes: unless...the pay is good enough!!:E

[pseudonymf]

"A TIE IS AN UPSIDE DOWN NOOSE" (quote). I would be more impressed with an ability to spell correctly (or any other word) in these forums.

[clear prop!!!]

Here we go again!!!....THE SPELLING POLICE!!!

If the best you can offer is a spell check service then, give us a break and go join some other 'intellectual' forum.

Some of us can't spell for peanuts but... we can fly, teach at a commercial level, hold down a job and make a positive contribution to our industry and ...to PPRune.

We DO spell check our CV's, application letters and business correspondence and.... get it right ...get jobs and write coherent begging letters to our Bank managers.

This is a site where we 'dip in' quickly,... help one another, and have a bit of a laugh without the time to spell check or worry about other members being anal.... so PLEASE get a life and comment on content not punctuiation:yuk:

By the way 'pseudonymf', your grammar stinks and I hope you wear a shirt, tie, gold bars, cap and wings to compensate!!!
:O

[Dynamic Apathy]

For what its worth:

A tie is not essential for a smart appearance, as has already been stated. As mentioned earlier as well, the heat of a 150 cockpit in summer (assuming we get one :-( ) would make the wearing of a tie very uncomfortable and fatiguing. That cannot be a good thing.

How about this argument for the banning of the tie:

They are definitely a loose article hazard.

Scenario: During exagerated 'unusual attitudes' the cussed tie wraps around the control yoke, and then the pilot repositions his hand on the yoke and trapping the tie in position. Potential control restriction during a period when full control is required.

Ok, my example may be a little far fetched but many workplaces ban any loose clothing and trinkets on equally flimsy safety grounds.

BAN THE TIE!!!

[cavortingcheetah]

:= Yes, but, should we not, in the inerest of sartorial elegance, keep the tie and ensure that, as worn by any good CAA examiner, the same is enclosed within a double breasted jacket of a heavy wool mix, with, at the least, gold bars. Perhaps, upon reflection, they should be of platinum hue.
Do not ban the tie. bring back uniforms, full dress, for instructors.
Now, on to caps............:=

[jamestkirk]

Dynamic Apathy. our scenario a little far fetched! I must say i salute your vivid imagination and skillful story telling.

But, agree totally. Ties are for out of style 80's throwbacks with no perception of taste and reality. Althogh, I could be sitting on the fence there.

I have not read all the threads on this subject because so far its R E A L L Y
L O N G.

I vote for crevats. Silky and comfortable any time of the year. (depending on where you attach it)

[Scottishjockey]

Remember the poor guys at Cabair, they've got to wear their bars. How pretentious or sad is that!

[BEagle]

Oooh good. Next time I go to Cabair I shall dress up like some Ruritanian bandmaster with at least 5 gold bars and those dangly gold thread things worn by some cavalwy wedgiments!

[hugh flung_dung]

Ladies and Gentlemen, it's difficult to believe that so much heat can be generated over whether or not to wrap a bit of fabric round your neck. When I started work as a tender 21 year-old professional (ie graduate) electronics engineer it was necessary to wear a suit and tie - but that was in 1976. In 2005 there are VERY few professional organisations in the more progressive areas of industry that still expect a tie (and many are happy with Jeans, or even shorts in the summer) - people are assessed on performance. A monkey in a suit and tie is still a monkey.

There's value in wearing some sort of "uniform" (white shirt and dark trousers) just so that staff can be identified but logo-ed sweatshirts would be as good.

BTW, ref Beags' comment, I'm sure there was a joke of sorts from my pubescent years that ended "but she knew what wedgi meant" - anybody know what it is?

[autosync]

Ha ha,

What an interesting funny thread.
My favorite bit, was when some guy came on said that he quit his job because he didn't like the way one of his colleagues dressed.
What poor pathetic losers their are in this industry.

I am happy to say there are not so many of them in the helicopter industry, however there are a few, who like to wear all the badges and bars as they can, maybe its because they haven’t achieved much else in life, or maybe they are trying to compensate for a lack of ability!

I have no interest in instructing a student who would comment on my dress sense when I am trying to instill knowledge that has no relevance to fashion.
Fortunately I have only ever come across this scenario once or twice.

Where I work now, most of my customers are self made and if I came in with any preconceptions about myself and tried to pretend that I am something that I am not, they would smell it a mile off and just walk!
Some of the fixed wing guys just can’t seem to get their head around that, and often pass comment, but at the end of the day, they are sitting on the ground far more then me!

Your dress sense determines your professionalism?
Get a life!

[BigEndBob]

Looking at the view rate this is a very popular topic...sad really given how useful pprune can be.:bored:

[sidtheesexist]

Have come to this topic late so forgive me if I go over old ground.

I was a full-time instructor for 2 yrs or so and now do the odd bit of ad-hoc instr - mostly TLs. I believe that the instructor should wear a collar and tie and be smarlty attired - it's called looking and being professional for goodness sake!! I personally would not feel right turning up to work in anything other than black and whites - and no, I don't (and never have) worn crunchy bars in my capacity as an instr. As a paying customer I would expect my instructor to be dressed appropriately. Call me old fashioned but to me, the poll results and the existence of this thread are indicative of the times we live in.

Prepare to be shot down by the PC brigade!!!!:rolleyes:

[v1rotate]

Looney_Pilot
spending all day in the cockpit of a badly ventilated Cessna 150

Yes, but the 737 cockpit is well ventilated and I didn't see you wearing a tie ;) . What gives. :ok:

[MadamBreakneck]

What an amusing thread :D

Horses for courses, surely. If my student were a big businessman who was prepared to pay me a decent rate for the job, like the rate I pay my solicitor and accountant for instance, then it would only be courteous to were the sort of get up he expects.

On the other hand, would you expect your golf professional or you local youth footie coach to wear a shirt & tie to work? Of course not (or am I mistaken?).

Remember guys, the world is bigger than your favourite job.

cheers
MadamB

(Thinks, now where did I leave those white stilletos?)

[unfazed]

This is a funny thread so couldn't resist putting in my penny's worth

Depending on where I have flown I have adopted the "local culture" as far as uniform (or no uniform), that is to say I have been a team player and fitted in.

When working for a more formal employer I have resisted full Dinner Jacket and Top Hat but quite honestly I don't care if I have to dress up as Mickey Mouse or fly in the nude as long as it is a good place to work and I get some decent flying experience.

I have noticed that tie and bars are normally found where people are very focused on preparing for an airline career, I have also seen the results that these company's get (very successful). Why do they get these good results ? I think because they are instilling professional attitudes, pride and discipline from day 1 with an attitude that you may as well start as you mean to go on and "dress for success"

In the US there is a different more relaxed culture with smart slacks and polo shirts which is very "relaxed executive" but achieves equally good results.

Moral - If you don't like the local garb then leave and find a tribe that you do like - next time you are at the airport lookout for the Mohican with the tie dyed tshirt and face piercings who is captain of your long haul flight !!!!

[BroomstickPilot]

Guys,

There is a thread on Private Flying about flying suits for GA pilots that has a bearing on the subject of this thread. I suggest you take a look at it.

Best regards,

Broomstick.

[Vortex Thing]

I take it that we are trying to see if this thread will have a birthday !!!

[Dynamic Apathy]

So.......on it goes. The never ending debate. I notice one contributor who implies that this thread is unimportant and Pprune should cover much more useful subjects.

I would say that this thread is what Pprune is all about.....Flying Trivia!

Ok, maybe not, but obviously ties have struck a chord, and if a chord can be struck, well bloody well loosen it!!!

As I mentioned before, I would say BAN the TIE. In winter it is invariably hidden under the jumper, and in Summer it is way to hot, or humid. Both conditions produce uncomfortable symptoms such as face bloat, Red Pigment embarrassed face look and sweat. It is hard to look cool (as instructors should) when your face resembles an award winning red turnip.

For those about to mention the more equitable conditions of Spring and Autumn, then ok, maybe. BUT WHY. They are uncomfortable garments from a bygone age which will only be missed by those of a similar vintage.

I look forward to offering birthday wishes to this thread....:}

[Lasiorhinus]

Its beyond me as to why so many people have an allergic reaction to someone mentioning the concept of wearing a tie.

If ties are causing your face to turn red and your body to overheat, the tie is too tight! Possibly your shirt collar is too tight too.

Clip on ties are indeed safer - which is why the police wear clip ons- you cant be strangled by another human or a helicopter by a clip on tie.

[BEagle]

But they are appallingly working class....

[Blackshift]

Hmmm....difficult choice.....

Clip on : appallingly working-class

Real Tie : appallingly trying-not-to-be-working-class

Here's an idea - turn up in a 15 year old Volvo estate in crumpled brown cords, scuffed brown shoes and a slightly frayed sports jacket over a cardigan almost worn through at the elbows. Then you can look appallingly actually-I-don't-give-a-f*ck-what-u-think upper-class.

Personally, I like the open-necked shirt or top button undone and tie pulled loose approach which goes with a practical its-easier-to-move-my-head-to-maintain-a-good-lookout attitude. If you have to wear a tie, you can always pull it tight and straighten it up a bit to welcome the punters through the door.

Don't trust stuffed shirt dandies.

Despite the British cinema's postwar propaganda campaign to the contrary, statistically it was "appallingly working-class" NCO's in Hurricanes, not Officers in Spitfires with MG's and girlfreinds called Daphne, wot won the Battle of Britain.

You probably couldn't take them anywhere though!

[Flik Roll]

Would a normal day to day tie wearer of the instructor kind wear a tie with a parachute?!

:E

[Lister Noble]

A few years ago I was at an organic farming meeting and I was talking to this chap in yellow cords,brown leather brogues,smart jacket,check shirt and tie.
He was the epitome of the gentleman farmer and in conversation acted as such, telling me it was a very large farm etc,until I asked him how long the farm had been in the family.
He then said "Oh,I'm the manager,there's the owner."
A long haired bloke in a scruffy pullover full of holes and ancient creased trousers got out of this really old battered rusty Cavalier.
Ever so well spoken but not in an affected way and obviously old money as they say up here in Norfolk,and he did not have a tie wrapped around his neck.
You can never judge 'em by the clothes.
Lister:D
Edited to add I'm not an instructor but fascinated by the topic!

[unfazed]

Reminds me of a funny episode

I was in the bar at a flying club at an old WW2 airport when in walked a rather distinguished looking gent sporting a very elaborate handle bar moustache and dressed head to toe in fur lined flying boots and flying suit adorned with patches.


I said to my friend "he looks like he could tell us a thing or two about flying"

My friend replied

"Oh ! he's not actually a pilot, just one of the volunteer marshalls"

Appearances can be deceptive !

[DFC]

Of course wearing a tie can help hide the frayed collar that the poorly paid FI has to wear! :)

Regards,

DFC

[tabspleasewithjeta1]

my humble view is that a tie is just as important as polished shoes

[LocoDriver]

I am a Chief flying instructor for a small aero club in New Zealand, and have been watching this thread with interest!

Our colonial ways here may shock genteel personages from your Northern hemisphere, but our climate is hotter, the outdoors culture figures hughly!

Quite often I will wear a white shirt and tie in winter, minus the tie in summer, but sometimes jeans and a tidy tee shirt,(surf shorts- Dec to March- our summer) in summer.

For evening and after hours flying, it is shorts with tee shirt and sandals or bare feet in hot conditions or when at a smaller grass airfield, that is a carry over from the meat bombing and glider towing days.

I dont feel that standard of dress has any relevence on the way I teach, either PPL or commercial training(We do dress up for flight test day!)
HOWEVER, when doing a commercial operation(Charter) always collar and tie, shoes shined to perfection, etc etc.

Just a couple of days ago, I had two teenage students ( 16 and 19) both wore shorts, barefeet, and one had a tee shirt on , the other a tanktop.
It was very hot in the Cessna152, and pilots dressed COMFORTABLY fly better and safer than than ones dressed like a tailors dummy!
( I might add I was dressed the same, it was beautiful evening!)

I have had a student here collapse with heat exhaustion in the 1990's.

I am sure that will spark some comments from 'overseas', I can just hear the comments now,
'oh well. another silly colonial' !!

Cheers!

[B200Drvr]

I to have followed this with interest and think there are reasons for everything.
Thne flightsuit issue is not without merit, firstly for students it can save you a fortune in clothes if you are flying on a regular basis, I dont know how many shirts I chucked because of oil stains, secondly as a safety issue, a cotton flightsuit or Nomex, will go along way to saving your life in a fire.
However, 2 things to bare in mind, you will look like a prat if you are flying a 150 in a flight suit covered in "topgun" badges and generally you should wear along the lines of what the school requires. You do have to look into the practical issues to and temp. is a big thing. You will perform better in a comfortable enviroment, and what you are wearing will go along way to providing that. As for the bars and things, well I will leave that up to the individual or institution, when I instructed in the US, the school required that we wore 2 bars, since leaving there and working as a corporate pilot I wear epulettes for work, but not to instruct.
I think the most important aspect is that you look smart, feel comfortable and project the right image, what you wear and the frills that you attach for that first impression are not as important as the impression your student leaves with

[Craggenmore]

I've got the irritating stubble rash around my neck form wearing a collar and tie all day.

So, does anyone know of any soothing creams that work?

:} ;) :)

[unfazed]

Craggenmore

Are you sure the cream is for your neck ?:D

[fenfly01]

Wear your tie as a safety back up!
When in IMC and the gyros fail, if your tie is touching the canopy you know that all is not good.:ok:

[pilgrim flyer]

I was told of an advanced variation on the above technique when I started flying gliders- namely when in cloud, if the s!!!s running out of your collar then you know which way up you are...

Obviously not many glider pilots wear ties these days, so the tie technique is not really appropriate.

Now as power FI, I would if I had to but would prefer not.

PF

[Bucket]

:cool:

Sartorial elegance being what it is (increasingly subjective) means that often there can be two right answers to this vexing situation. Should appearance take priority over practicality and comfort. The average light training aircraft is probably the smallest classroom in the world.

I have collegues who teach south of the equator and they have a summer policy (open neck shirt) and a winter policy (closed neck shirt with tie) so how do you explain that one. And they often suffer in winter from what they call a berg wind; a very hot (35-40 degrees) wind that rips through the land. Sweaty FI's and students pour out of the badly ventilated aircraft after a flight neither party having enjoyed the flight much.

Image IS important however a professional atmosphere can be conveyed just as sucessfully with a open neck shirt, a good haircut, clean shoes, pressed trousers,a pleasant and not too pungent cologne and fresh breath.

Thoughts?;)

[Johe02]

How's this for an angle. . ?

I feel uncomfortable when I am wearing a collar and tie, so I feel grumpy and I am sure this degrades my instruction. Conversely, I am happier wearing casual clothes but I know I am under scrutiny from new students. I therefore feel my standard of instruction must rise to prove that although I may not look like a . . err. .747 captain (in an R22) I am an experienced professional. .:ok:

[rmcdonal]

I don't even wear a Tie on Charter let alone to instruct, and thats to a CPL level to. However my shirt does have a collar.
Yep on a 35-40c day the last thing you want is a tie.
:ok: