easyJet Morale Rock Bottom

[maxfactor]

Morale rock bottom at easy due derisory pay and conditions changes soon to be announced.

Fat cat management laughing all the way to the bank with pilots and cabin crew working to maximum FTL.

Effective cut in overall package being kept under wraps by senior management until they can decide how to sell it to the pilot workforce.

Potential industrial action by up to 49% of pilots looming.

Many size 9s thinking of walking.

M

[Sir Kitt Braker]

Glad to see someone's happy..

[A300Man]

I think its ****ty of the EZY management to behave in this way right now. They know that the industry is facing possible downturn again thanks to Saddam, George W, Tony, et al.......and that very, very few carriers are at present recruiting in significant numbers.

Accordingly, although it would be nice to be able to do so, I don't think that as many size 9's will be walking as one would like to think. The package may be terrible, but under current economic situation, it is probably the case that most will stay put in the meantime.....until the storm is ridden out.

Industrial action - why not? A few sporadic days of decimated schedules will surely make the fat ones sit up and take a bit of notice.............or a mass viral infection to sweep through the Company rendering all of the pilots unfit to fly............hmmmmm

[Nightrider]

very doubtful that in times of challenging employment situations with extensive leisure effects people step out of any kind of job unless they have something else secured...and the beancounters work on this fact.

[Tom the Tenor]

Employers screw workers all the time to keep the profits healthy - whether you are flying shiney, new Boeings or selling newspapers at the corner on the high street it is just the same means to an end.

[rupetime]

And a strike increases losses, or decreases profits thus hitting the beancounters bottom line - the same bottom line used to calculate staff (including pilots) salary increases.

Think on boys (and girls)

rt

[HARRY GREYHOUND]

Morale pretty low on the dole queue too:(

[Seriph]

Ah you poor wee things you. Morale low heh, ah what a shame, awful people expecting you to work to the limit eh. So what do you expect? Join the real world laddie.

[batty_boy]

Well said seriph. not so long ago any criticism of easy or its pilots was met with a smug arrogance and accusation about sour grapes. no sympathy here.
and no i wasnt refused, i havent even applied. too much like the "prisoner" tv series, all roses until you question the hip orange culture , then a visit from a big orange bouncy balloon.

you pays yer money you take yer chances.

[Few Cloudy]

Seems to me that Max Factor`s morale is always at rockbottom. A real profi whinger - must be fun to fly with him. Oh yes - and a bit of a one track lobbier too...

[YAK PILOT]

I have a few comments after reading the above,

1. Morale does not have to be low when working for an LCA! The excellent roster practices employed at GO are testament to the fact that stable, acceptable rosters are possible and yet still work to the FTL.

2. GO had very healthy profits without screwing the workforce.

3. Why should it be an automatic conclusion that to improve ones working enviroment that to "walk" is the only option.

4. Industrial action should not be discounted just because of the present aviation climate. No one would wish to go on strike but for management to take notice then this threat must be employed and that the majority of pilots are prepared to back action should it be necessary. Easyjet nor Ryanair can suddenly conjure up several hundred 737 pilots. We have the power NOT management!

5. If the employers wish to screw the workers then they will not have a profitable company as a result.


The morale at GO was very high before the takeover. Many are worried that we are slipping towards a Ryanair attitude to staff. This fear is not allayed by Mr Websters' remarks made in a recent Telegraph interview denegrating Cassani. She was respected by all at GO. Remarks against her are more likely to alienate his new workforce. Not a clever move by a CEO.
Indeed if we could swap Cassani for Webster we would all have a brighter future!!!

And now I have just read the last two replies and wonder why I bother posting anything on this forum. Oh well.......

[411A]

Simple unadulterated fact(s)...
In the present economic climate, management calls the shots, like it or not...and many won't.

Wait for better times if you want to move employers or take industrial action...simple as that.

Have often wondered why so-called professional pilots cannot understand these very basic principles.
Put on your oxy masks guys and wake up.
It ain't gonna change ANYTIME soon.

PS: Even the HKAOA guys are starting to wake up...and about time too.:rolleyes:

[Hap Hazard]

:( You think its bad at Easy, believe me you guys are on a hell of a lot better wickit than we are, but I do understand where you are comming from.
Look on the bright side, you could be worse off, chin up...;)

[lardy]

Am I the only person to have read this thread with an easyjet recruitment banner at the top of the page? :rolleyes:

[fireflybob]

Firstly, I'd much rather be with Easy than out of work at the moment!

That said I do have every sympathy with low morale in a Company having been there myself. The commonest reason for staff to leave an organisation is "lack of recognition" - pay and conditions rarely are the main reason.

I was recently talking to a friend who is not in the airline business who was complaining bitterly about his job etc. After a while I asked him what he liked about his job. His initial reply was "Nothing". I then asked them if they paid him - "Yes" he replied so I said well there's one good thing about your job. I then asked him about the people he was working with. "A great team - I really like working with them". Do you like the job itself "Yes - I actually love it". So, I said, there are at least three good things about your job: a) they pay you, b)you are working with a good team of people and c) you like the job!!

I am not one of those people that believes positive thinking enables you to turn everything around but it certainly will enable you to do everything better than employing negative thinking!

I know that some of the managment styles out there are pretty appalling but think not what your Company can do for you but what you can do for your Company! With the "lack and limitation programming " that exists in the "datasphere" it is so easy to get caught up in the mindset that there is no way anyone can help to improve things. Step up to a higher standard - don't lose your cool - make sure than you keep communicating with the Company and let them know how you feel but at all times maintain your posture - act professionally even if the Company doesn't.

[LTNman]

Reading an accident report for an easyjet flight at http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/sep02/gezyb.htm it stated that the captain had flown 91 hours in the last 90 days of which 34 hours had been flown in the last 30 days. Good job if you can get one.

[NorthernSky]

I think the truly offensive thing about this is the 'spin' put on by the managers at easyJet. Their 'head-in-the-sand' attitude displays either incredible ignorance of what's going on in their airline, or utter stupidity in their approach to 'managing' it.

With the inspirational Stelios gone, those calling the shots lack credibility, respect, ability, and even basic management skills.

The remarks about Barbara (above) are spot on. She used her vision, drive, and principles to build a fine airline. So did Stelios. He stepped out, she stood for what she believed in and had to let go.

My only question is, whether the airline's founder will grasp the nettle and set about re-building the business? He built the brand in a magnificent manner, and should keep a close watch on a potential failure.

Meanwhile, those 'at the sharp end' and 'down the back' slave on. I believe they'd be a lot happier if the bosses came out with the truth and said 'we don't value you, we're going to work you into the ground, and we'll pay you as little as we can get away with'. At least, there would be some honesty then... (and honesty is a good first step on the road to respect).

[thegypsy]

Seriph What an unpleasant individual you are. I assume you are not a Pilot as otherwise you would have some sympathy with anyone expected to work to limits of CAP 371,in whatever company they work for. CAP 371 has been hijacked by the Airlines as a limit to work to which was never the intention but the CAA which is paid for by the Airlines has never had the bottle to take on the Airlines who cry poverty at every opportunity.

[Flap 5]

NorthernSky has got it about right. Unfortunately most managers have come to the airline from other management postions and have little experience in running an airline, and even less in flying aircraft. How often have you had a manager on the jump seat who has no idea of what is going on in the cockpit?

It is unlikely that Stelios will be able to do as much for the company in the future. Go fly to Italy and easy have not been doing so up till now because of the legal problems Stelios has in Italy. Therefore with the Go takeover he has to back off from the running of the company now, or the Italians may impound some of easy/Go's aircraft.

[Land ASAP]

How things change eh?

This thread proves the theory that being an airline pilot is as paradoxical as it can get. To have so much responsibility yet treated with such little respect. Show me another job that has so many lives to safeguard and such little respect from those that entrust you with them. Ask yourself why a pilot, who proves his ability on a 6 monthly basis, feels it necessary to speak of industrial action? Could it be that he feels that without respect he has no other response to use?

For the 'seriphs' out there, the reason we whinge so much is because individuals like you prod us with tactless comments like yours, thus lowering our opinion of you (a manager I presume?) even more. Get back to your 'powerpoint' presentations and shove them next to the Major Incident File to gather dust....

[Buster the Bear]

As the integration of Go into easy progresses slowly, non flying 'orange' staff are being re-interviewed for their own jobs. Some loyal staff are finding themselves now out of work.

Such are the wide differences between terms and conditions of staff at Go and easy, the Go brand may well live on for some good while! Assimilation could prove rather costly! Allegedly!

[Goforfun]

Morale is now rock bottom at Go.

We are coming to terms with going orange- but it all seems to be going back 4 years at Go. Every thing Go perfected is out the door- not to mention easyJets old fashioned SOPs!

What we need is Babs to start a new airline up- and we are all off! Then hopefully turn around and **** on Ray Websters grave....

Not to sure why easyJet bought Go? For Pilots and Crew? Well they want to walk.......... ;)

[Alt Intervene]

Perhaps morale isn't helped by people whingeing, carping, complaining and trying to discredit the company and its management. If you really feel that strongly, why not do everyone a favour and do what you're thinking of - walk! Otherwise, why not behave like a professional pilot, get on with the job and try to get things changed in a proper way. Fireflybob seems to have the right attitude, so take a leaf out of his book, especially the last paragraph of his post - it's very good advice.

[Goforfun]

Alt Intervene,

you are right.... we are lucky to still be in jobs- and in the best place. If the gulf war kicks off- then it's good bye BA and all the major jobs- I think easyJet/Go have a fantastic future over them.

Lets hope the dust settles over the takeover soon ;)

[noflare]

:rolleyes: Goforfun how can you call the Easy SOPs dated after operating to the stoneage BA SOPs ?

[the boy John]

Noflare, hardly stoneage, just different, and arguably somewhat better than Std Boeing. Most who joined Go from other companies now say they far prefer the Go style of operating. I have not heard one person say they prefer Boeing. What does that tell you?

[Seriph]

How dare you say I'm a horrible individual, my children think I'm great, as does the wife most of the time. That is when I can get out of the tailored shirt with lots of gold on it, black pants with BIG silver buckle, drag the huge watch of my arm and tone down on the old Chuck Yeager drawl.

[no sig]

BustertheBear

Interviews for duplicate jobs is an inevitable part of joining any two organisations together. There has been a reasonable balance, I would argure, between easy and Go staff getting key positions in the Company. There will of course be some who chose not to move to LTN, regretable but again inevitable I'm afraid. The merger is in fact moving ahead well and the targets for combined AOC etc are on schedule. The paint scheme for the Go aircraft begins in a month or so, so I am afraid, and with due respect to the Go brand, it will start to fade from sight over this next 4 to 5 months.

Morale low?, if you believe what you read in these pages perhaps, however, I notice that the Go staff working on the transformation seem very positive and keen to move ahead. I'm not suggesting that there isn't regret at the loss of the Go brand, however, I do think most now accept the merger and are looking to the future.

GoforFun

Not so! much of Go will move into the combined airline, think about it. A goodnumber of the Directors and senior managers are appointed from Go, they are not going to change their spots over night. In fact, from the begining, it was always said that we are combining the best of both.

[buzid]

I also look positively to the future of the business potential of the new easyjet.
But, I don't however think it's the GO brand that our GO colleagues are really lamenting the departure of - it's the GO culture, or more poignantly, the culture easyjet had 3 years ago but have systematically diluted since with beancouting precision.

As for the transformation team, well I'd be pretty euphoric about it all as well if I was on the fat end of a 10 miilion windfall.

But it has to be said, at the end of it the city will smile - and who really gives a damn about anything else (except the rest of us)

[no sig]

buzid

Might you well rue the loss of the Go culture, you certainly had an fine leader in Babs, but stay in this business long enough as I'm sure you know and something is bound to change. My reference to the transformation team was not with regard to senior managers and directors but to everyone who's working on this merger, they are not all at the end of the incentive scheme.

[autobrake3]

Yak pilot is quite correct, we had a very happy company with highly motivated staff increasingly rewarded and acknowledged for a job well done. Cassani knew how to run a successful company. May I humbly suggest that Webster et al at easyjet eat some humble pie and take many leaves out of Cassanis book. The best of both we keep getting told. Starting with rostering and staff travel perhaps easy could actually begin to do what they say they are going to do. Old fashioned them and us management will fail the combined company and a large number of people will suffer. Easy management.....wakey,wakey.

[flappyfeet]

I quite agree,

One thing has certainly been surprisingly good about GO is that when being at work there has never been a glimmer of whingeing about the company - until the merger. Even then, any concern expressed has been about the attitude of easy management to their flying staff and equally importantly the rostering situation within easy. This has come from former easy people(not long since they left the orangery) and from the rest of us since the highly publicised rostering debacle.

May I suggest that, should any people of influence be reading this thread, they seriously look at the causes of discontent and concern amongst a significant portion of their revenue earners and try to address them with the view of long term staff contentment and profitability, not next years squeezing a few extra quid out of the poor b****rds.

I'd like to offer a very good idea- Operationally driven rosters and their inherant stability. It has worked like a dream with GO this summer and I think it has been fantastic! I've never had the roster stability like it before, I've got a social life again, I (and my family) are very happy with it and that's with working 85+ hrs per 28 days on average as well- so it can't be inneficient or unprofitable either.

As the stated aim of the merger is to take best practice, I wonder whether easy will take on the GO rostering system or not. If it comes down to the bean counters, I'd love to hear their take on the merits of disaffecting a large proportion of their staff versus some dogmatic adherance to a system. Why nail your colours to a mast without a really good reason?

Oh and in reply to those who may say that the easy rostering system is more cost effective - I've yet to be told this by any one from within the organisation, please communicate this through the proper channels to let us know and how!

I am an optomist and would like to remain so after the dust has settled. It would be nice if easy lead a willing staff into the future.

p.s I'm writing this at a very unsociable hour due to my young baby keepng me awake- oh well you can't have it all!

[swashnob]

Easyjet have a very strange manner for a company that is going to need to recruit more pilots and C/C in the not too distant future to stay in line with expansion.

I appreciate that there will always be the new pilots who are deperate for a job (as we all were once) and will join this company, but who in their right minds would want to join this shambles.

I have four good mates that work for EJ, both C's and F/O's who absoulutely hate it and will leave as soon as the time is right. What happens then? There is only a certain amount of money you can then throw at the problem (golden hello's) to get out of the mess.

I work for a company who have tried this line to a point and have realised very quickly that being at odds with flight crew is not the way to go.

Who the hell would EVER want to join this company out of choice, i.e. two job offers on the table?? I mean no offence to existing EJ pilots as I appreciate that you can't always help the way your management decide to go.

[khasabman]

For the first time ever when a long term colleague telephoned me the other day to ask if he should join easyJet I found myself dissuading him.
In the past I have always been able with good conscience to recommend my present Company. In this case however even though he was Boeing qualified and a line trainer with his present company, I could not.
Much later I reflected on the conversation and was saddened.

[YAK PILOT]

So why do the easyjet guys accept the current situation?
Do they think that because they are working in the low cost sector that it is not possible to enjoy the job?
I hope the more contact easy pilots have with those from Go will bring a realisation that it is possible to enjoy the work, have a home life and a good salary!
It can be achieved but only if we ensure that it is achieved.

Personally I do not wish to work anywhere else. Long haul is not my thing nor charter operations. I have spent so many nights in airport hotels over the years that I would loath anything that takes me back to that kind of lifestyle. It has been so long since I did a nightstop that I cannot remember where my last one was. So, I am here to stay but guys please do not sit back and let easy remain a company where you too would find it difficult to recommend it to a colleague!

[Colonel Klink]

I have been at easyJet for five years through lots of changes, and the really annoying thing about it is that it could be a really good airline. The pilots are excellent, the routes interesting and the aircraft reliable (particularly the -700's) Unbeknownst to the manangement, they have a lot of staff who still care about the place.
We are let down so badly by our own management, who unfortunately do not do as they say.
When we lost loads of drivers about three years ago due to poor rostering and low pay, it was decided to keep the pay similar to Ryannair to stop people leaving and avoid expensive retraining. The pay has been slipping backwards ever since, the rostering has had momenets of madness and we are sent video's telling us how important we are, but are overlooked when it comes time to hand out a bonus for the Go deal, the value of the company being what we made it. The April pay deal has not yet been agreed and threatens to linger on to Christmas or beyond, then the rumours are sent out by the FOM that we will not be backpaid the full amount as they cannot afford it; wait till the record profit announcement in November!!!!
Pilots will continue to vote with their feet, and I believe many will do so, as trust has been lost forever. You may get treated like cr@p elsewhere, but at least you expect it!!!!!

[Stelios]

I told you so!!!

[Tinytim]

It is very depressing reading this thread as it shows history repeating itself...

We, formerly of Brymon, once worked for a profitable, reasonably content and generally decent company.

Then came the MBAs, Harvard Business school graduates and beancounters and married us to BRAL...a company where employees were used to being treated like Sh*t by managers for whom there was no respect.

So was born CitiExpress.

And, surprise, surprise, whose culture prevailed and which mangers got the top jobs in the airline?

Answer BRAL's.

As a result.....you talk about low morale.....!!! Come and visit us sometime and we'll teach you a thing or two about low morale!

The industry seems to be in the grip of people who do not understand that a company can have both a happy well motivated workforce AND be profitable.

Just what business schools do all these idiots come from which says" Work your staff to the bone, intimidate and bully them into total subservience and as a result wonderful things will flow for you and your shareholders"?

Read any Autobiography of any industrial giant and you will learn that generally they were respected and liked by their workforce and thereby the best was brought out in them.

Clearly Barbara was within that league and the idiots who lost her will doubtless have plenty of time to regret it at their leisure......

And, yes, my application is still in with EJ and I will happily accept any job offered!!

[Nigel Nearly]

Would be sorry to see you go Timbo, but sadly, most of what you say is absolutely correct. I like regional operations and swap lifestyle for a few more bucks - but maybe not for much longer.
If TDLF tells me once more things are getting better, or goes on about the light at the end of the tunnel - I shall have a sick day off due to stress caused by hysteria!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[tailscrape]

theGypsy,

I am sorry to hear you are working so hard.

I think you may recall having a "ding dong" with me on hear last year, after I had been abused by an arrogant easyJet captain in interview. You seemed to think that easyJet was ACE then!! I told anyone who would listen that I was unimpressed with them, and that I would rather face redundancy with jmc than than move to eJ. You called me horrid nasty names then too. Just like you do now with Seriph!

I wasn't made redundant by jmc and have moved to a better paid job since then. I am happy I never joined eJ is all I can say. More haste, less speed chaps. It can pay well.

I genuinely hope that things improve for you all there, however there has been a HUGE amount of smugness and "holier than thou" from eJ pilots on these pages in the past.......

Lets hope you learn from that.

However, theGypsy you should look at yourself and what you call people. It seems that you can be a touch blinkered.

[ojay]

Can I just say as an easyJet training captain that the pilots here are exactly the same as pilots everywhere.The vast majority are very good guys/girls doing a very good job in trust me,the most trying of circumstances.To the Go pilots I can assure you we will be very happy to work with you on a professional and personal basis.Any trepidation about our coming together should be directed at our (soon to be) collective management.There is a lot of accuracy in the saner comments already stated here.If any interviewee was treated in an arrogant and smug manner,then I am personally embarassed to be associated with that attitude.I am sure the external perception of easy is that we are an orange cult,running around like moonies.If any of the pilots have bought into the fatuous concept of 'orangeness', then I have yet to meet them.I refer again to my first sentence.We are in dire need right now of some sensible guidance from our union.Let's wait and see.

[brakedwell]

Colonel Clink
I seem to remember Harry Goodman announcing record profits of £47 million at the 1990 Christmas Bash. Air Europe went bust the following March!

[Colonel Klink]

Brakedwell!! Don't get me started on Air Europe! Yes, you are quite right about it's going bust following record profits, something I don't believe will happen to easyJet. The Low cost model has proven to be very robust and even survived 9/11 very well. The ONE thing easjet does do well is put bums on seats.
By contrast however, Air Europe had a loyal pilot workforce most of whom (including myself) would still be there today if it were still going, such was the degree of respect that the management were held in, and we in turn felt respected and a necessary part of the operation and futiure of the company.
It was a quality operation in every respect, one that all pilots felt proud to be a part of. Salaries were excellent, without the "Bargain basement" feeling that current negotiations are producing. Uniforms were supplied, medicals paid for, meals were too (without threatening to have them removed) and most importantly (read this Ray) the company had a huge spirit that far surpasses anything "orange" being shoved down one's throat!! Nothing was too much trouble at AE, contast this with leaving a message at easyland, anyone who has knows what I mean as your calls will never be returned.The bottom line is: it was a happy airline and no one (very few, anyway) ever left.:eek:

[brakedwell]

Simmer down Colonel Klink, take your pills. I too was with Air Europe. In fact I joined on day one and was left high and dry in Bangor at the end. I agree it was a good outfit to work for the first ten years, however towards the end the rapid expansion got out of hand and management lost the plot. A bit like EZ I suppose.

[northern boy]

Things were generally ok until around April of this year, when the new rosters were introduced. At that point everything went to hell in a hurry eventually making a guest appearance in both the newspapers and news at 10. At the same time recruitment was frozen, new aircraft and routes appeared on what seemed to be a weekly basis and those at the top awarded themselves a huge cash bonus whilst simultaneously denying there were any problems. ( Crisis, what crisis?).
The "admission " that the new rosters were "rubbish" was nothing more than words, nothing has changed and crewing still work on a day to day firefighting basis. Any objections are met with "its legal". Blowing ones head off with a 12 bore is legal as well but hardly sensible.
Those fortunate enough to have found alternative employment are told that there is no way back into the company, ever.Despite this, people are now starting to drift away, many willing to take the risk that Dubya and Blair will blow the world up before Xmas and would rather do something outside aviation than work under such conditions again.

Its all a great shame, and I cant help thinking that it will blow up in the faces of the orange godfathers before too long.

[dontdoit]

<<however towards the end the rapid expansion got out of hand and management lost the plot>>....bums on seats doesn't matter a toss, it's all YIELD - low cost, high cost, short haul, long haul - it doesn't matter. I'm gonna say it one more time, this is Air Europe all over again, don't come crying to me when it all goes t**s up.

(Yes I was there and the story about HG at the Xmas "Do" is true)

[thegypsy]

TaILSCRAPE It was not me but someone else who uses just 'gypsy' as his name. He joined after me and I took it up with them in PPrune whose reply was if I did not like it I could always change my callsign!!!!

I have nothing to do with Easyjet and am an expat

[thedude]

In my humble opinion, the current state of the industry was clearly written on the wall, with the arrival of the so-called "low cost airline" model. This was allways going to have repercussions throughout the UK industry and those that refused to change their structure, caught a cold. Some as we know recognising this far too late.
However, allthough no one can argue, that the downward pressure on ticket price currently benefits joe public, we can hardly appear suprised at the terms and conditions that are beginning to evolve within the industry.

Companies are run generally by the accountant, and he has no concept of staff good will. How much saving will the company make with generally happy staff? This cannot be quantified and therefore is not a factor for consideration. If we can squeeze a few more flight hours out of that crew, or reduce the number of breaks that despatcher has, then the accountant can factor that in to his calculations, all is therefore well with the world.

The company line is that they must compete in the market place.

What the more competitive market place does do however, is highlight those, in management postions, who are clearly not up to the job. Anyone can plug numbers into a calculator, it takes real management to factor in the unseen costs.

Both Flight Crew and joe public have bought into the perceived "low cost" ethos and as a result we should not be suprised by it's eventual effect on the whole industry.:cool:

[HalesAndPace]

Must be the bean counters behind the proposed pay deal then! Something like less company pension contributions, cancel the annual bonus, and it all balances out at about a 1% pay decrease!! Same bean counters rostering earlies into lates, and planned monthly flying of 99:45 - legal, but kn@ckering!

[kenoco]

"thedude"yep you are so right hit the nail on the head,so far here we use only uk based low-cost airlines,but will it keep on going in France.

[Notso Fantastic]

The questions about the arrival of the 'low cost airline model' are interesting. From having watched the arrival of the low cost long haul airlines (Braniff & People Express) in the days when the long haul market was far more restrictive, I can't say I ever understood why they failed. Seemingly excellent staff relations, happy and very flexible staff, good customer reputation, it seemed the future was in their hands, and they sadly failed. Maybe their time wasn't ready. Can we say for sure that it is the low cost short haul time now? They've had an excellent FEW years- will it last? I hope so- aviation is healthier with them here.

[Whippersnapper]

LTN MAN

Such low flight hours are not the norm and you know it, besides which the problem is duty hours. The idiot in charge of that dept (xxxxxxx) has the incredible belief that crew productivity is gauged by duty time and not flight time, hence loads of positioning, unusable/unneccessary stand bys etc.

NO SIG

Exactly our point! The integration team are managers, and are hence very happy people because they never have to bear any responsibility for the mess they create, rarely have to work nights, weekends or holidays, don't have to put up with the bullying tactics and are the only ones to believe the spin and propaganda from the Clockwork Orange.


Use of personal names not allowed

[no sig]

Whippersnapper

Your use of a member of our staff name on a public forum is out of order. Unless you are prepared to post your actual name I suggest you edit your post immediately, you're out of line.

[vicarofdibley]

I went to the Easy roadshow at EGNX. What suprised me most was that I couldnt hear a word sitting at the back because the speakers didnt feel the need for a microphone.

Remembering my previous "business" life, I thought how much of a kicking I would have received if I had made such an elementary mistake in a presentation to people I wished to impress...

[NorthernSky]

Vicar,

Maybe they're used to everyone nodding whether they can be heard or not!



Like it or not, there are two sides to easyJet. The commercial planning/revenue/brand-building is superb. The operational management is a joke, and not a funny one.

Some time ago, this airline decided to brand itself an 'industry leader in terms of pay and conditions'. This went, of course, down the proverbial flushing mechanism.

The potential for easyJet to be a great airline is there. The management is not. The company's identification of this as fact, will be the turning point in their fortunes.

As to whether they will go bust or not, it doesn't matter to me (though our pilot recruitment will be no bother for a while!!!), but it does matter to them.

Time for some hard decisions, acknowldegement that some positions (one for definite) are untenable, and a good clear out of the board. Replace the dross with people who make sound decisions, progress them, and aren't afraid of standing up for their views. Then, a competent, inspirational figure-head to get the people pushing forward instead of pulling back, and the world may be (quite liderally) their oyster!

[ZAZOO]

This is not good news at all, how can people do this to an airline like yours, boy...EASYJET AND GO Pilots talking like this...

Morale rock bottom at easy due derisory pay and conditions changes soon to be announced.

Fat cat management laughing all the way to the bank with pilots and cabin crew working to maximum FTL.

Effective cut in overall package being kept under wraps by senior management until they can decide how to sell it to the pilot workforce.

Potential industrial action by up to 49% of pilots looming.

Many size 9s thinking of walking.



AND THEN


I think the truly offensive thing about this is the 'spin' put on by the managers at easyJet. Their 'head-in-the-sand' attitude displays either incredible ignorance of what's going on in their airline, or utter stupidity in their approach to 'managing' it.

With the inspirational Stelios gone, those calling the shots lack credibility, respect, ability, and even basic management skills.

The remarks about Barbara (above) are spot on. She used her vision, drive, and principles to build a fine airline. So did Stelios. He stepped out, she stood for what she believed in and had to let go.

My only question is, whether the airline's founder will grasp the nettle and set about re-building the business? He built the brand in a magnificent manner, and should keep a close watch on a potential failure.


AGAIN

Can I just say as an easyJet training captain that the pilots here are exactly the same as pilots everywhere.The vast majority are very good guys/girls doing a very good job in trust me,the most trying of circumstances.To the Go pilots I can assure you we will be very happy to work with you on a professional and personal basis.Any trepidation about our coming together should be directed at our (soon to be) collective management.There is a lot of accuracy in the saner comments already stated here.If any interviewee was treated in an arrogant and smug manner,then I am personally embarassed to be associated with that attitude.I am sure the external perception of easy is that we are an orange cult,running around like moonies.If any of the pilots have bought into the fatuous concept of 'orangeness', then I have yet to meet them.I refer again to my first sentence.We are in dire need right now of some sensible guidance from our union.Let's wait and see.

OKAY !

So if you all go with the idea of popular opinion, what is the solution to this whole saga, because by the looks of things here something drastic has to take place for things to change for the better. Please let no one bring these two airlines to an end.

Just concerned :(

Zazoo

[DamienB]

thedude wrote:
Companies are run generally by the accountant, and he has no concept of staff good will. How much saving will the company make with generally happy staff? This cannot be quantified and therefore is not a factor for consideration.

Having flown with each of Ryanair, Easy and Go in the past, myself and my other half both came to the conclusion we'd try and stick with Go wherever possible in the future, even if that meant paying higher fares. The Go crews were friendlier, couldn't do enough for you and the whole operation seemed more efficient. Easy were so-so on all occasions - and we had two bloody scary landings at Luton that rather coloured our views! Ryanair... wow. Surly staff do not a good impression make.

So happy people certainly can make a difference to your bottom line - hopefully *somebody* cursed with the job of accountancy will realise this.

[khasabman]

No matter what 'spin' is attached to the proposed but secret pay decrease, the management are in for a very big surprise when it is unveiled.
Without doubt, for eJ to have a future the present management AND management style will have to go. Maybe this derisory pay deal will be the beginning of the end for them.

[MerseyView]

I'm sad to see morale is so low at easyJet but while there are pilots willing to join, the management have the upper hand. A lot of pilots at my company, KLMuk, are so gloomy about their future that they are looking elsewhere, me included. I know of one guy already who is joining easy in the new year and I fear a lot of others may follow. I'm mainly monitoring PPrune just to get some idea of what's happening at any possible future employers, and as I don't particularly fancy charter or long haul, my options are limited.

[tailscrape]

theGypsy,

Oops.

Please accept my apologies.

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

Just last night there was a very interesting program on the Beebs about LCAs. Southwest took the trouble to provide a senior marketing exec for interview and the contrast between his comments on the success of the SW business model focussed on how much they rely on the sharp end employees and why they are so highly valued and considered. In 31 years of operations they have never laid anyone off and have had 29 consecutive years of profit which is a record, and attained only by being completely faithful to the proven business model). He stressed how important that the high morale of all employees is to profitability and success and that it comes only through leadership.

'Ray' on the other hand was colourless, unenthusiastic and boring, intimating that the problems at eJ had nothing to do with management. He just denied them and maintained a head in the sand attitude. Fortunately he wasn't given much air time anyway, but then the BBC aren't altogether fools either.

Listening to the difference between these two leads one to believe that any integrity of our business model vanished with the personality to drive it, Stelios. He was motivated and people oriented, knowing that his and the Companys future lay squarely with the proven SW business model, that is the goodwill of the other members of the company and a proactive people centred approach. The current bunch of 'suits' at easyJet are in it for only themselves, they have made that abundantly clear.

How very sad to see it going to the dogs, such great potential squandered by unappreciative fools. Keep my shares Ray, they won't be worth diddly soon. The price hasn't halved simply because of the market downturn, but I guess you won't admit that either.:mad:

[flappless]

I did not see the programme to which you refer. The principle that it refers to, i.e keeping your staff on side is surely one which applies across many professions. The trouble is that many senior management see employees as nothing more than numbers on a balance sheet - which is what I guess they are at the end of the day. Trouble is that this approach will always fail to get the best from them and lead to industrial strife. There is another UK airline out there that probably has the worst pilot morale / welfare problems in the industry. Nearly all of this has been driven by management incompetence and failure to lead.

[noflare]

N T E I agree with you 100%, the man needs to be replaced before any further damage is done.
I vote we get Babs !!!:D

[Earthmover]

The management and direction of British airlines has changed deeply since I first started in the business in the 70s. My CEO in this period would stop you in the corridoor at head office, remember your name and ask you how you thought a particular route was going - or whatever. You were valued and respected. Today - well, it is no wonder that there are so many threads on this forum dealing with morale issues. CEOs are almost always transitory, have no real long-term passion for their company and are often plain bullies. Ask any Cabin Crew what they think of the British businessman - unjustified intellectual snobbery - sneering discourtesy and boorish behaviour. God knows how they must treat their wives. This mind-set is taken into the work-place and they appoint middle-managers who have the same stance - hence the tranche of arrogant second-raters who run, with a truly stunning lack of integrity, some airline fleets and training departments today. The one bright spark in this lamentable decline has been Barbara from 'GO' - who saw as plain as day that if you adopt the Southwest model, then people skills come with it too - she believed it and she acted it.

The current direction in the British airline arena is pretty dire - more or less across the board. CEOs must come to realise that the airline business is truly different to selling houses/soap/used cars et al, and that the people who work for them start out not as ciphers, but as motivated, valuable, technically trained professionals. It is, of course easier to be destructive from below than constructive at the top; nevertheless, if some integrity is not pumped back in soon, then I fear for the safety statistics.

[DCS99]

Couldn't agree more Earthmover - with comments as eloquently put as yours you should write a book. Spot on.

[no sig]

Nil Tarus, sorry mate but you are wrong in your assessment of easyJet and RDW. He has brought the airline to Europes No.1 LCA, has he not delivered an IPO and profit, not to mention the purchase of one of our main rivals? What you fail to appreciate is that RDW has been running the airline for a long time and where, the persona of Stelios has been an important in the past, the brand and product speak for themselves as will the solid financial targets being achieved.

The business model is sound and developing with the integration of Go into an even stronger footing with all the best of Go, which , if you recall, was one of the reasons they were so attractive to buy, we are delivering on that promise I believe.

The comparision of Southwest and easyJet doesn't really hold water either considering their respective stages of development, you're comparing an airline that has had over 30 years to perfect the model in a very different operating environment then ours. Go back in SWA history and they will admit to having had growning pains in the past as well, as their own staff have told us.

We're in the middle of the integration of two excellent airlines, we've had our moments of course, but there is a clear understanding with the Directors and Management groups of the need to focus on our people as much as the business, this is happening but getting the two airlines together will not happen overnight. I refute your allegation that the mangers in this airline are in it for themselves, the carpets of easyLand are stained with the blood, sweat and tears of those 'managers' who have got the airline where it is today. They are as committed to making this business a success as they were 5 years ago.

You seem also to ignore the fact that easyJet has offered hundreds of pilots and airline staff opportunitys which were not there before, what's the average Command upgrade time period in easy versus the traditional airlines? Come on, this business is very successful and going from strenth to strength.

[Orangewing]

I think no sig's post just goes to prove that our "management" really do have their heads well and truly buried in the sand, and are still believing that self congratulatory orange c**p that continually spews from the orange tin hut.
Might I suggest a visit to the crew room, no sig? You might find a slightly different point of view from the guys on the line. Oh, and don't bother asking any of your fellow "managers" where it is because none of them have dared go over there either!
If there is any blood, sweat and tears to be found then its on the front line, NOT in your cosy little cafeteria in lala land.
This is not meant to be personal, no sig, but I, along with many others have just about had enough.
:(

[Mr Ree]

That's great to hear. Pay rise for everyone then.

[wobblyprop]

if you're only interested in someone floating your company then you get Andersons (RIP) to do it.

[springbok449]

Well said orangewing and I dare say that is the feeling within 99.9% of the crews within the airline at the moment.
Wakey wakey managers, patience is running thin, as Orangewing mentioned nothing personal but we all have had well and truely enough now!

[JAFCon]

Once again Well said Orangewing !!!!!, Totally agree with what you've said, I only hope that the management start paying attention and start speaking to their staff, instead of at them and more importantly start listening to them, not just at easyjet but at all the other Airlines, LCAs, Charter and Scheduled start listening to your staff, support them make them feel worth their weight in Gold and they will give 200% and that's cheaper than when they dont care and work to rule ect.

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

no sig,

I like many others who have put easyJet where it is today have held my tongue too long but before we start getting examining the nitty gritty of what is really wrong with eJ let's just see where you are coming from and where your loyalties lie. The question for you is one of integrity and is quite simple:

Are you one of the direct beneficiaries of the 10M payout ie. one of the 'Top 40'

A simple yes or no is the only answer that will suffice.

Your credibilty in this forum rests on your honesty.

[buzid]

No Sig

No one is is denying your assessment of the ej business model and the success of the company, as well as who's been running the engine roon throughout - erudite as usual.

You fail to see the point completely though - this debate is about people and culture, two things that are terribly hard to quantify but a great sight glass to the shape of the business.

You see, I feel it very hard stomaching this 'people matter' and 'you make a difference' b@ll@cks coming from the top of such a successful company when those same managers look like they're about to try and slash 2% off their contributions to my pension and scrap our annual profit bonus, just as a way of saying thanks for helping them through this 'difficult period' and lets share in the success. Do I feel like I matter in the long term? NO.

Maybe you will already have a feel for it on the ramp at LTN, if you don't I think you're about to get a taste, but it works this way; when people feel valued, rewarded and trusted and respected, things go well and the company prospers. When they don't, they either put their size 9's on and go elsewhere or just plain old don't give a sh!t anymore.
You can figure the next line out yourself, you're a smart person.

[Lapsus linguae]

no sig, do you spread the holy gospel on this site in your own time or whilst clocked in at citric acid HQ. Maybe it is during your lunch break.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

I have to agree with Nils Taurus Excretus on this one.

My previous posts, both this forum and the easyJet forum, reflect this attitude.

easyJet have not been faithful to the Southwest business model - in fact one wonders just how flexible a business model can be before it disappears up its own posterior.

In so far as Stelios is concerned he did indeed put people first and realised the importance of this policy (someone please tell me that he is alive and well - he seems to have vanished since stepping down as Chairman). I remember him stating publically that his pilots would be amongst the best trained and highest paid in the industry - for the very reasons set out by SouthWest. Now we are all starting to wake up and discover this was only a dream.

For the first time (as far as I am aware) pilots are leaving the company through dissatisfaction. easyJet was a great airline when Stelios was in command. It is only a good airline, like many others, in my view now. What it will be like in 12 months when the new pay deal has been ratified is anyone's guess. If crew food is discontinued (for example) and our terms and conditions eroded maybe we should all turn around (with BALPA's backing) and simply refuse to accept the new terms and conditions. It is our right - a contract is a contract and if one party (easyJet) modify those terms and conditions then no employee is under any obligation to accept them. The men in grey suits might suddenly become aware that pilots are not simply numbers on paper but pretty important in the operation of an airline! - in fact b****y indispensable! Lack of suitably qualified and motivated pilots in the right numbers will be the one constraining factor in the future expansion of easyJet. Management can not afford to disaffect the pilot workforce - and particularly not at this important time in the airline's development. They will rue the day if they do!

Stelios had the vision and determination to rise above the mêlee and strike out on his own. Ray Webster may be the business brains behind the venture but he lacks the flair and imagination so crucially brought to the airline by Stelios - as with so many partnerships it is the synergy of both individuals which ensure success - take one facet away?!. It may be a gross error in judgement for the company and the city to have agreed to him stepping down before the easyJet/GO merger. He was a steadying influence and would have been seen to be leading the company at a critical stage. (I appreciate that other factors are involved here)

I dislike the term 'bean counter' but the company does appear to have been taken over by that breed of dull, unimaginative, men in grey suits who, it seems to me, probably think the 'missionary position' is a clerical job vacancy in Africa!

[no sig]

My response was with regard to Nil T's post , I disagree with his views with respect to easyJet sinking fast, thats simply not the case.
No where have I said everything is rosey with respect to culture and people, but my point is, there is a lot to be proud of at easyJet and yes of course we have all been involved.

I would answer your question Nil Taurus regarding my personal situation had you not linked it to my credibility, thats like me linking your views with the current pilot pay negotiations.

[LGW Vulture]

It won't take long before EJ's customers start voting with their feet. The expressions and manner of some cabin staff also make this inevitable, along with the smell of the toilets!!! Ex-ZRH last night!!

....And, when your operating a very very sorry looking -300, then they won't stand it for long!

Yes it is cheap travel, but there are limits.

Let's hope it doesn't all go to the dogs!

[dontdoit]

Doesn't this all sound rather familiar...as recently as five years ago, Virgin was the fashionable airline to try and get a job with, then the management slowly lost the plot and now they nearly can't give the jobs away.

And so it will come, all you suckers who have been taken in by this "orange culture" malarkey will - best case - see it, sooner or later, for what it is.

And the alternative - worst case - go figure; the worm is more than halfway round its turn, I fear.

[springbok449]

Well it is quite interesting to see that NO SIG is semi-admiting that life is not "rosey" at eJ, I hope that the rest of the management that are reading Prune are taking note or at least that it is being reported to them.
Many people are walking and don't deny it. Many more will gol if we don't start to being rewarded for our hard work and heavy disruption, letters that tell us that how valued we are not enough.
Recruitment has been easy for eJ in the last year because of other carriers misfortune but things change rapidly in the airline industry so stop having your heads buried in the sand and show us that you value people as much as you like people to think in your "orange" hype.
I have remained silent for a long time especially on public forum but enough is enough so please don't spoil what EVERYONE has built over the last few years.

[opsbod]

A Captain once said to me.

"The two best jobs in aviation are your last one, and your next one".

Things are not all rosey here at easyJet, but, neither were they at any other carrier at which I have worked. One of those is now bust, the other probably will be in the next 6 months, given its rebranded itself 3 times in the last 18 months in the hope of attracting customers back.

Given the choice, I would choose to continue to work for easy, and I will continue to recommend it to others, both as an airline to work for and to travel with. The work is hard, but at the end of the day the rewards are worth it.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

It will be interesting how Mr Webster will tell share holders .
Why EASYJET needed to use contract pilots at 10000dollars a month ,and subcontracting titan and the like at 7000pounds per hour .
Reason being is that he didnt listen to the pilots that he had in the first place.:cool:

[Jack The Lad]

Woe upon woe

Judging from the posts here, seems like both airlines lost their respective 'leaders of distinction'; Babs and Stellios. Maybe the investors should recognise this fact and do some damn quick rectification before the whole lot goes down the swanny.

Just an observation from the views posted here

Jack

[Shagtastic]

Modern fleet modern thinking.

Is easyJet's Chief Pilot going to reconsider his 'modern thinking' no second chance policy??

[easydoesntit]

Apparently there has been heavy recruitment over the last few months for a large base NW of the Isle of Man, rumour is that some of our new colleagues are in for a nice surprise on day 1 when they find out their base is a little bit closer to London than they'd been led to believe...something to do with a few of the brothers from Go having first dibs at the B*****t base. Woops.

[Gypsy]

No Sig - your efforts at defending the indefensible are noble but frankly you are too nice and honest a guy for this so my advice would be to give it a rest.

In the past I have also been a strong supporter of what we all dreamt we were doing here but the vision is lost - sadly I have found myself telling friends not to join

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Nearly choked on my corn flakes reading the LOG.
Balpa slapping themselves on the back over the GO pilots.
When are they going to get their fingers out and sort out the EASYJET pilots situation.
Double standards I am affriad so far ,looking after Barbie Dolls soldiers.
Not impressed.:cool:

[Amazon man]

What exactly are the problems at Easyjet.

You are paid one of the highest salaries in a UK airline with good and quick prospects of promotion in a secure airline job especially regarding the aftermath of 9/ 11.

Sure you have to work quite hard but do you honestly expect management to pay you for sitting around at home doing nothing.

You have had a few problems with rostering but these are problems some of us have had to live with for years, your airline is growing rapidly to become one of the biggest low cost outfits in Europe.

Sorry, I dont work for Easy and therefore are not in the know regarding all the detail and I could be completely misguided but I dont see too many problems compared to some airlines out there.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Amazon.
If you dont work for us .
Please p*ss off .
We often work 7 in row with 2 days off {you dont do that}.
I dont expect a free ride laddie only a resonable return when the company is making a profit of 60 million.
Plus the airline has just awarded 10 million between 40 managers without giving a full explaination to share holders.
If an airline isnt profitable then fair enough NO PAY RISE.
But when it is there should be a fair slice of the cake for everyone within that company.:cool:

[the boy John]

Blackdog, a more careful reading of that piece would tell you that it was Go's (named) Company Council members that achieved the result, not a mythical swat team from New Road with a grudge against EJ. If you aren't getting results then it may be down to several factors, but a lack of help from BALPA is unlikely to be one of them. Remember, YOU are BALPA, and your reps are YOUR mouthpiece. If you don't like 'em, change 'em, but don't blame BALPA.


And to the poster a page or so back who wondered if there is any airline left that is pleasant and fun to work for you don't have far to look. It's now part of EasyJet. Wouldn't it be tragic if the incorporation of "best practices" somehow allowed that unique atmosphere and attitudes to work to be lost. It's so close to you, you could (rather we all could) have it. Now!

[mjenkinsblackdog]

boy Johnny,
I DISAGREE at this stage in EASYJET.
The senior negiotiator should be involved head to head with Mr Webster.
According to the LOG article you were assisted by Balpa{you didnt achieve it on your own}.
Plus remember you are now part of EASYJET so you can forget all your golden past with Barbie Doll thats all history.
It will be interesting to see how long you last.:cool:
About two or three months I would imagine.
By the way Go was a poor imitation of EASYJET .
Who owns who now.:cool:
In regards to BALPA the senior negiotator has not been present at any meetings. Communication has been none existant and they appear to be lackluster so far.
Therefore criticism is due .
Lets see some action and prove that you are not only interested in a bunch of NIGELS.:cool:
ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

[Little Friend]

Mark,
easyMate-take a chill pill.

Don't did out the GO guys.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Little friend,
I nicely chilled thanks.
Just annoyed with our present proceedings.Its getting so late in the year we better start 2003 negiotiations into the equation.:cool:
Company says , People are its greatest asset.
We havent seen much proof of that over recent talks.:cool:

[Amazon man]

Boy Blackdog am I glad I dont fly with you, there is an answer if you feel that unhappy with Easyjet vote with your feet otherwise you are only going to make yourself a very unhappy person, you seem to be a few steps down that road already. If you dont want anybody other than Easyjet crews replying, then post your comments on your own company forum, otherwise its a free country last time I looked and resorting to rude language only shows your inability to express yourself in any other way.

Regarding your comments about GO I totally disagree, GO as a low cost outfit were totally superior to everything else on offer right from ease of website use to ticket purchase, clean aircraft ,smart cabin crew uniforms pleasant people etc etc. I chose to fly with them on several occasions always on time and at a good price.

Biggest mistake BA made was selling GO.

[Little Friend]

Mark,
I know how you feel and Amzon man's gross over simplification of our position (clumsy attempt to p!$$ eJ crews off) is no help what so ever.

Question is what to do given the issues around TPC and the CC etc?

Perhaps we should confine ourselves to the coy. forum.

Good Luck

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Latest rumour.
I heard the food was to stay due to caa intervention!
Please can Captain pegram verify this.:cool:
Amazon enjoy go its shortly to be easyjet.
You also said we are paid the highest salaries in the uk.
Rubbish! A senior B747/b777 Captain with Ba would earn alot more than an easyjet Captain.:cool:

[Colonel Klink]

MJBD!!
Apparently that is no the case, heard the same rumour yesterday myself from an apparently good source so checked anyway and one of the Base Captains knows nothing about it.
However, the potential loss of crew food is certainly not helping the low morale at easyJet, and it reaalluy is a Flight Safety Issue. Go have been able to do without it, because they work shorter days than we do, and food is available from the bar at discounted prices. Naturally, one would expect their bars to be topped up more often than ours, which run out at about mid morning every day thus infuriating the passengers that get told they can buy something on board, only to find it has been sold out!
Anyway, it will be interesting to see what alternatives are suggested by the management, considering that so many of our days start with a 3.30 or 4.00 am out of bed, when the last thing that you want to be doing is rattle around the kitchen organising breakfast.
A couple of suggestions however;
Open the easyJet canteen at easyland on a 24 hours a day basis, so that the crews can stroll in when ever they like to get well fed, like the office workers do. Or perhaps they can send catering out to the aircraft at Madrid, Malaga and Palma, like the Duty Free vans. Or, even better, when we get hungry on a turn around, we stop, get off and disappear for an hour to find a cafe somewhere and get back to the aircraft within the hour (or two) once we have had our nutritious lunch!
A reminder to the management, so well versed in these matters:
Loss of concentration, fatigue, short term memory loss, impaired judgement, sloppy flying and decreased visual perception, increased reaction time, and being able to be easily distracted are only some of the symptoms of fatigued pilots; is that what you want to fly your new A319's??:D

[Brakes to Park]

Let's remind ourselves that crew food will only be withdrawn if we , the pilots , vote in its favour. This goes for the whole of the "new" easyJet terms and conditions. We now have BALPA recognition and matters like this have to be negotiated and not unilaterally imposed by management. Any package proposed will go to ballot and if you don't like it just say "no".

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Thanks Colonel.:cool:

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

Brakes to Park has it in one!
You all have control over your own lives. You decide where you will be and when. You owe 'these people' nothing except to perform pilotage for an agreed wage. Perhaps you should think hard about just who 'these people' are and ask yourself what you owe them. If they want to change or do something you disagree with then refuse to cooperate. If they want to make unreasonable changes to your roster exercise your basic rights of self determination, say NO! If they want you to fly without providing food and water or an adequate opportunity to obtain and consume it then, say NO! You willget no argument from them once they realise you can't be cowed or frightened.

So stand up for yourselves and stop acting like cowardly sheep. Why are you afraid of people who have absolutely no power over you. They can no more place demands on you than a tradesman or shopkeeper with whom you transact any other business. They are a bunch of faceless strangers to you and your families. Remember that and to whom your loyalty and goodwill should be directed; yourself, your family and friends.. easyJet comes a very long way last.

Until you all realise this they will have you in their grasp to twist and manipulate as they see fit. The answer to this dilemma is the same as if you are faced by similar behaviour from any other stranger in society. Retain control over your life.

[Little Friend]

No BS,

The theory is fantastic and you are right of course.

How do you suppose we implement your fantastic plan.On the assumption that forces must balance; what opinion have the top 40 of us?

In a way if I idealise a theory (as you have) I have no right to insist on a change at easy, than they of me given I volunteered.

As in all western developed states-cash is king-loss of liberty is secondary to money. This delicate balance is why eJ can produce a crap roster and we (with huff and puff) accept it.

Our ONLY power is to not be there-but elsewhere.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

little friend,
May be the rostering issue should be incorporated in the new discussions going on at the moment.
Plus obviously further share options within the company following the model of SOUTHWEST.:cool:

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

It is as simple as getting off your fat butts and doing something about the problems YOU have.
No one else will solve them for you so if you want them fixed the first step is to realistically define your relationship with your employer. When you finally realize that they are just suits with money and that they will trade it for your skills then and only then will you start to get a better deal for your work, and not just money but a whole raft of issues that define your working lives as pilots. Crew Food, Basings, Career Progression, ROSTERING, Loss of Licence Isnsurance, Medical care and costs etc etc etc. So bloody well ask for and be prepared to haggle for it!

Now is your chance and it won't come again.. eJ is at a crux, a merger is a delicate time and after it is completed you will be treated worse than ever so NOW is the time to act! Miss this chance and it won't come again I assure you.

Join your Union and be guided by their advice, support your reps by joining BALPA and give them the strength of position they need to act on your behalf. Also tell them what you want!

Again I stress to you all
Take control over your own lives! Stop letting faceless managers ruin your lives, just refuse to accept the crap they are feeding you!

Huff and Puff as Little Friend puts it is why you are where you are.
It is time for something a little more substantial. eJ is realizing that prosective new employees are not accepting offered positions and they are wondering why.. tell them and take advantage of it!

Little Friend I am afraid I disagree with you on your last statement
The answer is not to go somewhere else because it won'tbe any better there, the answer my friend is that these jobs are OUR jobs and we have a right to them and a fair go. Putting your tail between your legs and sloping off to Ryan Air or somewhere else only empowers those who will screw you and you family for the sake of an extra ppenny in their pockets.

Note for RDW, WHP, JP, no sig and the rest of the 'Top40 with their 10 Million' et al:
If you think it is cheap to **** your employees off by being a miserly corporate tightwad that sucks people dry and burns them out then just see how much it costs to have pissed off employees that hang around and will fight you toe to toe for a fair deal.

To all shareholders and the Board of eJ, read this and take note. You may also ask yourself why am I posting this at some unGodly hour when you are all snug in your beds at home? Because I have just finished 6 long hard days/nights work for a company with absolutely no regard whatsoever for my circadian rythym, my time with my family, mental wellbeing, stress level or anything else that goes hand in hand with making even a minor effort to consider your people as humans instead of just another tool or machine to be abused until it breaks.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

nils,
I know how you feel,but the ballot will decide.
Lets hope its not a split decision similar to the ground handling staff.:cool:

[workerant]

Hi Fish,

I have just received email to go on SBY for interview with EK. I have survived three and half years with EJ but am running out of steam. I can't see anything changing at EJ re lifestyle so am giving the possible move to Dubai serious consideration. I'll be giving up eight years of command but I'm starting to think that is a small price to pay. Could you email me or post here with your thoughts on making the move. Would welcome the opportunity to ask a few questions. Regards workerant.

NTE,

Great post and I couldn't agree more but deep down you and I know that EJ management will never let the crews prosper unless there is a change at the very top. A sad fact.

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

Workerant you still miss the point so I will repost it.

REPOST:
Little Friend I am afraid I disagree with you on your last statement
The answer is not to go somewhere else because it won'tbe any better there, the answer my friend is that these jobs are OUR jobs and we have a right to them and a fair go. Putting your tail between your legs and sloping off to Ryan Air or somewhere else only empowers those who will screw you and you family for the sake of an extra ppenny in their pockets.
END REPOST

What this is saying is that it doesn't matter where you go it will be the same. The managers at Ryan Air won't be any different, nor are they any different anywhere in the world bar SW. Our pay packets and T&C are the result of much hard work and angst by and for pilots in years before. We have squandered those benefits through complacency and under the 'benevolent hand' of the 'faceless suits' who regard you as an expense item the cost of which is to be absolutely minimised, with their 'gotta get leaner' crap while they stuff their snouts in the trough. Do you really undertsand that easyJet managment have given themselves the equivalent of a BRAND NEW HOUSE ABSOLUTEY FREE. So if you want to ever improve your position then YOU are the only one who will do it, they are well ahead of you. You put easyJet where it is today, you have a right to a fair share of the spoils yet you are struggling to get a payrise that meets inflation!

So stop the whinging and get onto BALPA and the PC. Tell them what you want in no uncertain terms.. or is it that you don't really know what you want? Is that the problem? Then have a jolly good think about it, discuss it with your colleagues, write it down and then say clearly to your reps what your demands are. They will pass this to BALPA and then THEY provide the means both legal and representational to achieve our goals under the direction of the PC. The PC gives direction to BALPA but it is BALPAs job to get what we want. They have highly trained people and negotiators and should be dealing at an executive level with easyJet, not mere go betweens without any authority.

Make no bones about it, BALPA is a servcie we all pay for and we are not getting it. An eJ Captain is paying BALPA in the region of 600quid a year so at the moment we are being ripped off by both easyJet and BALPA. Question is what are you going to do about it? Leave BALPA and then just get screwed by easyJet or perhaps leave both and get screwed by Ryan Air or BMI or someone else? Not much improvement in that is there.. or do you do what you know you should, stay put and demand some value for your money and your skills from both of them!

As so called professionals you know we are laughed at by Doctors, Lawyers, Judges and the like. They are all solid members of their professional associations. They pay them considerable amounts of money to negotiate and improve their T&C. They don't hesitate to scream blue murder and place companies and the public at great inconvenience to get what they want, yet they are well paid and respected professions.. why aren't we amongst them?

BALPAs role is nevertheless the same, to protect striking workers, provide assistance and representation in case of accident or unfortunate happening, negotiate pay deals and other important issues such as ROSTERING, rest and relaxtion times, cooperate with other Pilot Bodies having input to legislation and the future of our industry etc etc etc. These are all the things we pay for, ask yourself are we getting them and if not why not.


While we are contemplating our navels in this inward looking moment also ask yourself why drivers of HGVs cannot drive longer than 8 hours without an hour away from the controls for a meal and a break and yet as pilots of large flying bombs we regularly work longer than 12 hour duty periods with no coffee/cigarette, rest or meal breaks. Hell you can't even get out of your seat to go for a walk outside in the fresh air to wake up a bit! Add that to 60hr a week rosters that take you in out and out wild variations of sleep cycle and regular rest periods and you understand why we are sleeping at the controls. Hopefully in turns.

We are called short haul pilots yet an ATH at about 7.5 hours stick time and an ELEVEN HOUR DUTY DAY is about the same as most 2 pilot long haul operators. On a 12 or 14 hour 'heavy crewed' flight (all in a single sector) most crew get 5-6 hours sleep! And yet we at easyJet do this day in day out.. a 'long haul' crew will do a single sector and then have 24hrs off. We will do a 4 sector day or night, get minimum rest and then get up to do it again! I don't give a tinkers cuss if it is legal or not and nor should you. Look at what is safe and whats more what is reasonable!

Do you really think your arousal level, attention span and flying skill is up to the level expected, nay demanded, of us by the time we get to the end of a killer day? Try 2 or 3 consecutive Luton-Athens-Luton starting work at 2200 local and not finishing work until after 0900 local next day. Or how about an Luton-Aberdeen-Luton-Nice-Luton after 3 early starts getting up around 0400 or earlier and then followed by night Palma or Malaga for a couple of days! We regularly do 4 sectors in a day, more than most long haul pilots do in a week or two!

What do the public think of this? Doctors tell us that after 8 hours fo duty our levels are about the same as if you have just had a pint. Does the public know this, both those in the aeroplane and those under where we fly? Would they be happy that the pair at the front about to land in crap weather and having made fuel and other critical decisions are so tired all the want to do is get into bed and sleep for a week?


So I say to you again, it is up to you. Each and every one of you. Take a good hard look at yourself, your life at home and at work as it is and what it should be as respected professionals and members of society.

Stand up for what is right, you don't need to lead the charge over the top, just start asserting your right to a fair and reasonable working life. Join BALPA and support your PC, watch them like a hawk, speak up and give them direction when needed. Be reasonable in your demands but don't accept less than what is reasonable and don't accept the tosh that you will be fed my eayJet management with a barrow to push, it is their own and it is hard to push because it is FULL OF MONEY! .

[SpannerInTheWerks]

That was the month that was:

Flew 94 hours in the last 28 days (SERIOUSLY knackered)

Marriage on the rocks since joining easyJet due to lifestyle and roster (shame after so many years)

Crewing cancelled a days flying because I was out of hours (then contacted me later just after a duty to ask me to fly on the day in question - said I didn't have to if I didn't want to (eh?) - I said NO THANKS (because I had just done yet another 11+ hour day and was rather tired!!! - which is why I was taken off flying in the first place)

Went 'sick' one day (first and only time ever). Just TOO TIRED to operate the aircraft safely in my opinion.

The future's bright: Either easyJet terms and conditions improve (how likely is that?!) or I leave - either way things will improve immeasurably!!!

In summary my time at easyjet can be summed up by smilies:


:) :confused: :eek: :(

[workerant]

Fish,
Have sent you a message.
NTE,
I couldn't agree with you more, the message is loud and clear. If I pass the EK interview I can at least increase my salary by £600! However, up until the time that I do leave, I will most certainly give BALPA my support and have done so already. As Spanner has pointed out the 6/7 on 2 off is clearly too much and is a safety issue that should be the first EJ rostering practice to be rectified by our new rostering guru from GO. I just hope my health hasn't gone down the pan to such an extent that I fail the EK medical:rolleyes:

[Stan Woolley]

No Bull

Few if any of the Balpa Council even read this forum, so what percentage of the line pilots do so? We somehow need to communicate with a lot more people to get any messages/ideas across. Let's see if we really can walk the walk.

I'm up for a fight because I agree and totally sympathise with spanner above, we have nothing to lose!

[cheer up]

Nils Taurus Excretus - you forgot to mention the new six sector day that's rostered to within 25 mins of max fdp. Add a slot delay at either BFS, LTN, LPL or AMS plus 20 min. turnarounds at three of those airports and then min. rest followed by the same the next day.:mad:

[Billy Whizz]

I agree with all preceeding comments. I am currently doing my third duty period of 7 on 2 off, over a 4 week duty period.

That means when I finish this duty week I will have had 2 days off out of a total of 16 days, or 5 days off out of a total of 25.
Since this "6 on 3 off" pattern started in April I have worked 10 lots of 7 on 2 off. That is 3 months out of the last 6 months.

This is not a moan. I am stating the facts for all to see including the CAA and the fare paying passengers. Easyjet are doing this because they can, and no doubt other companies do the same though hopefully on a smaller scale.

P.S I lied this is a moan!

[Ulyxes]

23 sectors for October, 12 removed in last week.Going to be lucky if I crack 25hrs.Time for another round of golf at Stockwood Park.Winds playing havoc with my shank!

[Fly_Right]

10 sectors in October 7 stand-bys (no-one called).
It would be great if THEY could even things out a bit.
Hope November will be a bit better (her indoors keeps finding things for me to do!)

[workerant]

Ulyxes,
See you're a 747-200 skipper which is probably why you're not getting many sectors in EJ.
Good to hear from you Fish, long live the RBA mafia!

[The Grim Reaper]

N T E has the point exactly. Now is not the time to be running elsewhere but standin up for ourselves. For too long airline managements have had us pitted against each other scrambling for jobs, promotions etc whilst they have been eroding our T&C's and pay during the tough times and then just making the minimum effort to keep up in the good.

They can easily replace us as we leave in a trickle (and let's face it - a mass resignation is hardly likely!). However staying put and taking action is the one thing that they can't cope with. They can't replace everyone on a temporary basis (how?) and long term action would be terminal for the business.

Now some might say that this is doing ourselves out of a job - but let's just remember who's snouts are the deepest in the trough here. They would rather share a portion with us than lose it altogether.

It is time to make a stand :o

[SpannerInTheWerks]

I read the post from The Grim Reaper and could have sworn at that precise moment a pig flew past my window!

The only realistic option available is that a vote is taken on the 'pay deal' whenever it is put forward and we instruct the BALPA reps to pass the result of any such ballot on to management. Management will then say that the ballot is of interest and thank the PC for their efforts. Unfortunately the pilots' council will be informed that after long deliberation no further funds are available for an enhanced pay settlement. Morale will remain low and pilots will leave in dribs and drabs - I think the term for this situation is 'Status Quo'. Why will this occur - because at the end of the day people will accept their lot and moan rather than take action and risk discrimination, by being branded as an 'awkward' employee (with the attendant problems with promotion etc - it has happened to people already who, for various reasons, have not toed the company line). easyJet, as a corporation, is no different to any other in this respect. We have to accept that the 'glory' days when easyJet was first brought into being have passed into history.

What is my position? My position is as it has always been with employers - I either like the job or I leave. No point moaning and no point relying on colleagues who spend their time trying to rally the troops because at the end of the day the 'troops' have families to feed and are not brave enough or committed enough for a bloody battle with management. This is the reason that management will always succeed - they are the brave ones who will take risks and the employees are the 'cannon fodder' who sit back and moan in the pub over a pint.

I suggest you let the pilots' council 'negotiate' a deal that is probably already struck, sit back and take the consequences.

... alternatively we could all refuse to accept the revised terms and conditions of contract and resign en masse. Not a strike of course, just non acceptance of our revised contract of employment. A contract of employment is like most other contracts - an agreement between two or more parties. If one party does not agree to an amendment to the contract, then the contract will be determined. Imagine the possibility of ALL easyJet operations ceasing over night until management negotiated acceptable terms and conditions for their employees.

Yes, I was right, another pig has just flown past my window!

PS Oh, I forgot to ask - what action does The Grim Reaper propose we take, do we line the management up against the wall in the "Orangerie" and throw custard pies at them until they give in to our demands. Wake up boys this is the real world.

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

This is a crtical time for easyJet and particularly the employees of eJ.
Do not be hoodwinked by eJ management negotiating techniques.. there is very little if any negotiation involved.
They want to push their offer and just haggle a little on a few points. That offer fails to address MANY critical points of T&C.
So I shout to the Pilot Council
"REJECT THE OFFER OUTRIGHT!
Discredit it to the Pilots and stop this 'secrecy' crap! It is a device of the companies to destabilize you and erode your support. It is a well known and highly successful strategy if you allow it to continue, so next meeting when JP or some other robot of RDW says "this is confidential and not be released to anyone" tell him to take a walk.. you WILL do your duty and report all meetings prompty and accurately to the FULL PILOT BODY!" Stop being suckered and taken for fools. You are brave individuals to take postions of thh PC so be brave and face these manipulators down, it will get a lot uglier yet before it gets better and if you/we are weak now we have no hope of success. Your strength stands in being backed by all the Pilots, have faith that you will get that backing from the vast majority.
When you call for a strike you will get more than enough Pilots to walk to stop easyJet in its tracks!

It is our right to make demands and the company will have no option but to consider the offer WE make. So get oragnised PC.
Address the issues of:
Sector Pay
Payment for discretion instead of overnighting away (what's it worth Ray? 400 per crew member?)
Overtime at 150% of usual hourly rate
Guaranteed Flying hours per month
Payments for call ins on RD (start bidding at 400 Sterling for each person)
Payments for extra sectors (lets say 100 Sterling cash for both Capt and F/O and a further 75 each for Cabin Staff)
ROSTERING AGREEMENT no more CCPs, variations and so on handed down from on high!
Leave Allocation
Crew Food
STBY days
SENIORITY
Preferential Basings
A cash bonus similar to that which the GO pilots we given
SHARE OPTIONS to be honoured to those promised in 4SEPTEMBER fiasco
{bear in mind that these payments for Overtime, RDO Call in, Discretion and so on work both ways: they discourage teh company from asking for extra duties and when they do so they are desperate and you have an incentive to accept}

These are the kind of benefits you should recieve but they have been burnt away on the altar of the Orange Haze. Ask some of the guys from Cathay, BA and other real airlines what benefits they had and use them as a guide to what we can reasonably demand for doing exactly the same job those well looked after folks do, except we do a lot more of it and under much worse conditions.

Bring back the "Cheese platter Captain?" days and perhaps a little more respect for we pilots and our hard earned and professionally exercised skills will be forthcoming. If we don't demand respect we won't get it, we already earn it in buckets.
This sounds like a broken record but "Only by demanding equality of treatment will we regain some of the respect and professional standing we have lost to the RDWs et al of this world."

There are many more issues that need addressing as well so please reply here with the issues you want solved because if you don't tell the PC what you want then they can't say to BALPA "This is what you are to get for us as a minimum and see what else you can manage for all the thousands of pounds you are being paid by a pilot body numbering in the hundreds and before long in the thousands!
Remember a typical eJ Captain is paying BALPA subs of 600 pounds a year!

It looks like someone in New Road just might be listening as I see we now have more communication facilities at our disposal so speak up! From what I can see the following are our current 'lines of communication':

1. To contact all members of the Pilots Council and John Moore simultaneously email [email protected]

2.Go to the BALPA Website www.balpa.org (there is a specific easyJet area where recent developments and notices will be available to read and download.

3. Join the new easyJet BALPA pilots forum at www.ezboard.com, it seems it uses real names only so that might make a few company sycophants and general naysayers pull their bloody heads in.

4. Get yourself added to the easyJetBALPA Electronic Mailing List so that the PC can send you information instantly it is available.

Remember! If you fail to help yoursleves then no one else can or will

There are issues we need to urgently address and then worry about a few percent as well, actually for a company reporting record profits a number of 10% for all employees springs handily to mind.

The bottom line is that we MUST REJECT the current 'insult' as I refuse to acknowledge it as an offer of any real depth, scope or meaning.

That is all we have to do.. just say NO when it comes to talking to your reps, BALPA and finally easyJet!

Tell them you want a COMPLETE PACKAGE, easyJet wants to be a big airline paying 'suits' exorbitant amounts of gratuities {TEN MILLION POUNDS BETWEEN FORTY MANAGERS IS A LOT OF CASH}
then let them also off their employees the salaries and benefits afforded other Big Airline employees!

I just so wish Herb Kelleher would accept a role in eJ and finally sort these miserable penny pinching tightwads out and explain to them in childishly simple terms what he learnt a long time ago. By looking after your greatest asset (and I mean ALL employees) you will improve the companies profitability and expand it so much faster. RDW you might be good at business planning and penny pinchhing but when it comes to People Skills you have a lot to learn so pull your head in, get humble and if you have any questions, just ask Herb!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

N T E

Payment for discretion. I appreciate it seems common for EZY Pilots to use discretion but getting paid for it suggests your living on another planet. Complete and utter no-no from the Belgrano Boys.
Seems as though some experience required in certain area's, the Go Rostering Guru will help, good reputation. He needs to be supported by the Company though, ie he might suggest more crews needed if some of these nightmare trips are split up.
Rumour on the street is EZY are trying to Headhunt more Staff, but they need to look for more Guru's as clearly the Company is too big

:mad: :mad:

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

Just answer me the question.
Why can't you be paid for discretion?
Really, why not?

[alpha charlie]

Why not? NTE, I think if you take a minute to chill and not let your anger get in the way of what I hope would be your better judgement, I think you can answer that one on your own.

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

Anger? Hah! If I was angry I would be elsewhere as I would have no place in the cockpit, emotions are not well suited to our environment.

No Sir, I am scornful. Scornful of those who bring a once proud profession, of which I am still proud to be a reasonably competent practitioner, into such disrepute that we find ourselves in our current straits, which will not be remedied without much effort and sweat.

Be in no doubt I know exactly what you mean.. what I want is people to debate why we should or shouldn't be paid for discretion.. after all it is 'overtime' isn't it?

The concealment of the ridiculous rostering practices of easyJet management and their consequent effect on the arousal/wakefulness/attentiveness levels of operating crews need to be pierced.
Therefore here lies an opportunity:
The concept of a 'legal' duty equalling a safe duty is false, patently so in light of the abuses of the 'guidelines' of CAP 371 by easyJet and other unscrupulous operators who flaunt the spirit in which these texts are written in the pursuit of profit.

Perhaps these issues need a far more public airing. If you look just a little deeper at easyJet, the problems are not one of pay but of professional conduct (notof teh crews I am happy to say)which is of direct concern to the paying and travelling public. Corporate liabilty is very real and will without doubt soon be tested.

May I also take this opportunity to humbly suggest that remembering the caveat of PPRuNe is timely and at all times well counselled ;)

[FlapsOne]

NTE

Discretion, by it's very nature, is the exception rather than the rule. You cannot 'plan' to work into discretion and you must justify in writing each time you do.

If payment were to be offered as an incentive the whole system would be a mess.

How long do you think it would be before some people 'arranged' to extend a day into discretion to earn an extra bob or 2?

How long do you think it would be before an individual (or indeed crew) chose to work on into discretion, despite being genuinely too fatigued to safely continue, simply because there was a financial 'carrot' being offered?

Let's be absolutely clear, you should only work discretion if:

a. Unforseen circumstances have caused a delay
AND
b. The whole crew are fit and willing to complete the duty
AND
c. The duty can be carried out safely


..........NOT because there is particularly heavy telephone bill that needs paying!

[Airbrake]

Whilst we as pilots & cabin crew cannot plan to go into discretion, rostering and Ops rely on us doing it to get the schedule flown.
There are several notorious lines of flying with 4 or 5 short and 'long' sectors that are planned to go within 30 mins of max duty. We are all aware of easyjets on time performance problems particularly in the second half of the day, yet crews still go into discretion and so these lines of flying still get given.
If we stop doing discretion (even when it suits us) the company would have to address the issue eventually.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

FlapsOne

Hear, hear!

Absolutely ridiculous to expect to be paid for discretion and as you point out would send completely the wrong message to crews. Can't see the CAA being particularly enamoured by that idea either.

If some of the foregoing arguments and suggestions are expected to be taken seriously by management, then God help us!

We must remember that, fundamentally, we are seeking to improve our terms and conditions based on our EXISTING contracts of employment. This round of pay negotiations cannot be an exercise, as some people seem to promote, where we re-write the rule book in an attempt to improve our lot as professional pilots on the back of easyJet's commercial success.

Commercial pilots have suffered over the past few decades, in common with a number of professions, in that their overall wealth has been eroded over time. This is a fact of life - not easyJet's fault nor their responsibility to remedy in isolation. That said, there is a long way to go it seems before management come anywhere near satisfying the improvements to the existing contracts of employment of their pilot workforce.

I may act as Devil's Advocate from time to time but I will support wholeheartedly any fair and reasonable effort to provide an equitable improvement to our working conditions within the tenets of the terms and conditions of employment to which we are all bound. Unfortunately with a management team in place who seem to be colour-blind to the 'orange' principle, I see a long and winding road ahead.

I also think that in view of the confidential nature of the impeding pay negotiations that this thread be moved to the easyJet private forum - or a new thread be continued there out of public gaze.

;)

[sky9]

Discretion should not be used on a regular basis. There is a Notice to AOC holders somewhere that suggests that if a particular roster goes into discretion more than 30% of the time (I think) it is deemed unreasonable. CAP371 also states that published rosters should have reasonable block and turnround times.
At the end of the day if you are working hard and asked to go into discretion just refuse; but give crewing a reasonable time to find someone else.
At the end of the day contact your FOI ( he might even be reading this thread);)

[no sig]

AirBrake

No ops or crewing department should 'rely' on crews going into discretion and they most certainly do not at easyJet. The schedule is not constructed with discretion as part of the program and there is buffer provided to protect against this.

There is a very clear understanding that it is ONLY the Commader who has the discretion to extend an FDP. If a rostered duty exceeds the FDP then Ops/Crewing have a problem to solve if the Commander is not able to exercise discretion. Contrary, to what I have read here, easyJet's the use of discretion, in terms of minutes per month versus duties flown is in fact very low.

In September as an example, easyJet flew 8142 sectors and we had a total of 24.9hrs of discretion on 48 occasions = average 0.5 per extended FDP. Or, of 2700 crew duties, a Commander exercised discretion on 48 occasions or 1.77% of duties resulted in discretion.

Hardly, excessive use of discretion considering the scale of the operation

[Rocket Ron]

No sig, interesting statistics......do you have figures on how many times Commanders refused to exercise discretion?

I understand that Ops cannot "rely" on Commanders to exercise discretion, but they do tend to "expect" them to do so, in my experience!

[FlapsOne]

Let's just clarifiy 1 important fact please:

The commander will only agree to exercise discretion if ALL CREW MEMBERS are fit and willing to carry out the duty.

It may be small point, but it's darned important.

[The Grim Reaper]

Why move it Spanner?? Have you got something to hide?

Perhaps if easyJet moved to an hourly rate (per DUTY hour, rising in 5 hour blocks for example) rather than sector pay it might be an incentive to the company not to plan such long duties and perhaps cut out some of the uneccessary positioning, particularly after a FDP has finished.

[no sig]

Rocket Ron

Actually, for the most part our crews are supportive and OK contrary to what might be presented here, there are a few who might not be quite ready to exercise their discretion, but they are in the minority. Of course, Ops and Crewing hope that Discretion will be used when things are going wrong, but they are perfectly clear that it can never be assumed, nor asked for.

[workerant]

No Sig,

Interesting stats. Could you give us the figures for June, July and August? I gather last month and this month we are overcrewed by some 30 skippers. Is this true?

The Grim Reaper has it. We should certainly fight for an hourly rate. e.g. last week I did over 13 hours for GLA-LTN-GLA.

[The Grim Reaper]

NTE (NBS!) - I like your style :)

Spanner - The reason that pigs are flying past your window is because people like you are quite happy to cower behind the parapet. If you have a backbone then use it to stand up and be counted!

And yes, I realise that in the real world that people have suffered from detriment as a result of disagreeing with the management. This is just another good reason to stand up to them.

Bring on the custard pies :D


nosig - what planet are you on? :confused: just remember we are on the same side. Crews don't choose to refuse discretion in order to **** off crewing and ops, but because we feel that it would not be safe to continue. These points being raised are not directed at those departments, but the reprehensible and incompetent management who are responsible for this mess.

[omoko joe]

Heard a nasty one today about up to 15 guys destined for BFS and most already on notice now being told they have to be based elsewhere. Can they do this if contracts have already been issued with BFS on them? Great way to welcome new staff.:rolleyes:

[Colonel Klink]

I'm a bit surprised about this, because most of the people who are currently in Belfast (especially the new Captains) were drafted there on pain of death and would rather be at almost any other base! Given that most can't wait to be on their way elsewhere around the network, there should be lots of room for the newcomers at Belfast.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing is all too common at easyJet(Don't mention "Amsterdam" here!!!). If you are interviewed for a base, and /or it says it on your contract, then that is where you should be. Otherwise, what is the point of a contract at all, if it is so easily changed, and without prior knowledge?? This really gets people's nose out of joint, and makes it hard to concentrate on a forthcoming technical course, as you then have to spend weeks getting it sorted when you have far better things to do.:mad:

[keepitlit]

:mad: Have a few friends just about to move and have been told LPL or Bust.

Good Luck

Rgds K.I.L.

[Ulyxes]

So sorry WORK&RANT, maybe with all this time available,another dossy month for November, I will update my profile!

[stormin norman]

Easy come easy Go. Bring back Harry at least he was Fun!

[BTB]

Discretion:

On no occasion at easy have I have ever been put under pressure to go into discretion. When I have I have been treated like a god! This summer I vowed never to do it as a result of rostering/carmen/poor decisions above my pay scale, but did anyway when you have the option of a)going home at 11pm on a saturday night rather than flying the night ATH and ruining the holidays or business plans of 149 pax or: b) going into a few minutes of discretion waiting for a cc to be air taxied from another base.

Because? On the day these problems were unforseen, although strategically avoidable. As a result, I got professional pride, probably at the expense of my pay negotiating position, and recieved a great deal of reciprocal support from our ops teams as a result.

As for recieving financial reward for discretion, that of course is unthinkable; it is a get the job done option only and should never be encouraged by financial gain.

A soon announced, fair, and appropriate pay and conditions deal would more than do the trick!

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

BTB et al,
The purpose of my provocative post was twofold, albeit somewhat tongue in cheek but highlighting a very serious problem.

First to demonstrate that no issue is sacrosanct in easyJet. All things are just a matter of money. If it is 'Legal' you are expected to be compliant with the companies demands, REGARDLESS of common sense or what an individual thinks is safe.

Second and most importantly, and BTB highlighted it very well, was that ANY incentive to exercise discretion is WRONG!

The length of days we work here at easyJet are ridiculous and I am sure that soon to be released research on microsleeps and 'sleep inertia' will bear this out (Australia leads the push on this and you wonder why it is the safest country in the world to fly on RPT). But back to the main point; we already are too tired at the end of any rostered duty (read here long multisector, short turnaround duties, broken sleep patterns, irregular hours, constantly changing rosters, management attitude induced stress and so on) that gets near to discretion being required to complete it, regardless of cause.

Yet you deny my request to be paid for exercising discretion simply because it is a financial incentive to extend beyond an already marginal safe fatigue level yet you are willing to go into discretion to get home at 11PM on a Saturday night or to save inconveniencing passengers! How loud must I say that these are both oft quoted causes of fatigue induced errors. I don't care if you ARE superman BTB ( I have seen you do strange things although I have yet to see you wear your undies on the outside :D) neither I nor you are fit to extend duty periods AFTER 11 or 12 hours of continuous duty, without a break of any real kind, to continue flight let alone depart an outstation KNOWING that you can't make it inside currently permitted maximum duty periods let alone use of discretion, otherwise the maximum legal duty periods would include those discretionary hours as standard.
Another thought, if legally permitted discretion is safe then why is it a 'hanging offence' to quote an eJ management pilot, to use discretion more than 2 hours when the legal limit is 3? Has the CAA seen a trend in easyJet rostering practises they don't like and put a flea in an ear somewhere?

The issue here is one of SAFETY nothing else!

On another note BTB has never been pressured to exercise discretion by Crewing, there areand were pilots in easyJet who were denied/refused Command ooportunities because they complained about rostering and so on.. imagine the personal cost if they said no to the Captain who wanted to get home on Saturday night! I am not saying the Captain will give the crew a hard time but when management find out that it was another crew member who said NO then the may as well start looking for another career! If people were not afraid of punitive action here at easyJet I am sure there would be louder complaints about individuals in Crewing pressuring crews quite strongly to exercise discretion "you are the only ones we have" "you WILL go into discretion" "if you don't then we have to cancel several flights" "are you refusing a duty" etc etc. This has ALL got to stop. Crewing should never even mention or refer to discretion .. if the Crew and Captain don't volunteer then that is the end of it!

It is high time the rostering and other people management issues at easyJet were given a good hard safety based assessment by qualified people other than those within the eJ system.

There's a challenge 'Ray'. Get some fatigue researchers in to have a good look at us during or towards the end of summer!
Then publish the results openly.

All of the issues I have highlighted in my posts bear directly on the topic of this thread:
'easyJet morale at rockbottom'
I have got to say that it wasn't there at the time of the original post..and we still aren't there.. but I am sure I can see it through the murk just below our toes.

[AndyL]

NTE - I'm afraid you are mis-quoting me, and whilst the debate is interesting, distortion adds nothing to it.

The Notice you refer to discussed the use of discretion and highlighted some existing CAA rules, and made it categorically clear that any decision to use or not use discretion was entirely the commanders. A commander is required to justify any decision to use discretion but does NOT have to justify a decision not to use discretion. Can I make it any clearer?

Secondly, I reminded everyone that you must NEVER exceed 3 hrs discretion, and suggested that if you did the CAA would have the CP's whatsits in a vice very quickly, and he would then probably want to share the pain with you.

The comment about the use of 2 hrs or 3, was highlighting existing CAA rules which only permit a commander to plan the use of a 3rd hour of discretion for the last sector of the day.

Kind Regards,

Andy

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

Sorry for misqutoing you and thank you for taking the time to clarify the point in a civil manner. I am glad you find the debate 'interesting' and I hope you see more in it than that!

Perhaps you would like to comment on the percieved pressure placed on personnel generally not to 'complain' about errors and poor practises here at easyJet? Do you deny there have been people refused Command opportunities for arguing with Crewing and other incidents, or called into a 'well-being' meeting because they are off sick? Since when is easyJet a qualified medical authority to issue advice and guidance on health matters? And please don't trot out the 'people oriented company' line, it is patently false. If you want people to supply a Doctors Certifcate of Absence that is reasonable, but it is NOT reasonable to pressure them into working when sick for fear of being called into the office! Besides all they do is make the rest of us sick too... false economy and poor practise in one!

Perhaps you will volunteer your honest opinion of the current rostering practises here at easyJet. I wonder if anyone is game to make you really aware of the current problems and feeling amongst the troops. We are not lazy and are not complaining about a minor issue here Andy. Here's hoping that just because winter has arrived it isn't all swept under the carpet. Didn't this all happen just 3 years ago? Read the old memos.

Do you personally feel that we are sufficiently well rested given the factors outlined in previous posts?

I also put it to you that it is not only the Captain who can decide on discretion.. it is not Commanders Discretion but an individuals decision regardless of the slant easyJet or any other company may put on it. Only one person can responsibly decide if they are fit to continue outside maximum legally rosterable duties. To state otherwise places undue pressure on junior crew members and cabin staff to comply with your get-home-itis Captain. In the event of an unfortunate happening where the individual makes a fatigue induced error THEY not the Captain will be held legally liable for their actions.

[no sig]

NTE, you write..

'It is high time the rostering and other people management issues at easyJet were given a good hard safety based assessment by qualified people other than those within the eJ system.'

We are, they are called the CAA! They conduct regular audits of all UK airlines and it includes an evaluation of rostering practice and FTL records.

Further, you make the allegation that crewing are insisting crews go into discretion, do you honestly believe we have Captain's who are so weak willed as to bend over on this subject at the whim of a crewing officer? You may be fooling yourself but I doubt you're fooling anyone else who reads these pages. I don't believe you do have any evidence to this fact, but if you do, report it to your base manager, and we'll pull the tapes in the investigation.

[Lapsus linguae]

Crewing may not be insisting, but to have " If you can't do this duty then the flight will be cancelled" is far from satisfactory! Have crewing been instructed to stop this.
Oh then there is the perpetual problem of having your rest disrupted by incoming calls on you Day Off. Roster changes..........

[AndyL]

NTE - I'll get back to you on the easyJet forum soon but not right now because I haven't the time.

[Yarpy]

I don't work for easyJet but have seen this issue of 'perceived pressure' raise its ugly head in other airlines. It is insidious and usually stems from board level via the media of 'compliant' senior middle management.

Good examples are, refusing (or delaying) command opportunities, getting rostering to give you a hard line, enquiries about the cause of sick leave and issues of basing . Other tactics are sarcastic remarks in the simulator or the odd little comment from a line manager.

These tactics are quite effective at keeping pilots in line. We are, lets face it, a relatively easy group to control!

The nub of this problem is that it can lead to muddled thinking on safety issues. If you are thinking of going into discretion (or perhaps not putting something in the tech log on the last sector home . . .) then the only issue is safety. No one would support you with the argument that 'I was trying to keep things going for the company'

'no sig' makes mention of the CAA and FTL issues. I have only known the CAA intervene in extremis. They too seem interested more in legalities than sorting out working practices. Being even handed with rival airlines might be an issue when addressing a particular FTL for example.

Of course, a well run airline gets the job done with the use of good practice and management. If only there were more of them.

So what can you do to effect change for the better in these airlines?

Well. leave of course.

Joining BALPA and supporting the CC - providing they too are not trying to feather their nests.

For your own interest never, never break a safety rule or do anything to compromise the validity of your licence.

[BTB]

I suggest a lot of these issues would be better discussed on the GoEasy forum.

[Mad Max]

Hear Hear BTB,

It is surprising that this thread still exists on the "front page" - perhaps if it was any other company the moderators would have seen fit to move it?

Ah well that's what censorship's all about I s'pose.

:(

[karaoke]

Surely this is not about censorship.

It's all about 'Free Speech' !!

[Mad Max]

You missed the point Karaoke, censorship comes in many forms.

At times it is more significant as to what is not censored, than what is. There is no doubt that this particular whinge thread has been left on the front page for a specific reason - IMHO.

The thread is neither newsworthy, nor is it the grist of the rumourmill - it is simply a succession of complainants whinging about what is wrong with their particular employer - in their own opinion.

Ipso Facto it is not likely to be reliable reporting (in so far as there is balance represented in the viewpoints) and would be more appropriately placed on the company forum.

Again it's only my opinion and I agree entirely with the freedom of speech principle, however you have to consider that this is a Global forum. As such, you have to ask yourself the question does the average pilot on the other side of the world, really want to read about the alleged poor rostering during the summer season of a shorthaul Low Cost operator in Europe?

[The Southend King]

Mad Max,

Utter B*ll*x mate. Most of the people posting on this thread appear to be EASYJET EMPLOYEES

If you want this thread to die, stop posting on it. You (for one) have now ensured it remains right there at the top for at LEAST another couple of days.

If easyjet guys want to wash their dirty laundry in public so be it.

Personally I have found it very informative as an indicator of the current status of the Low Cost sector, and current management policies during the takeover of GO.

I notice you havn't been defending your employer with your usual enthusiasm.

[unwiseowl]

MAD MAX

As a pilot with a different airline, I'd like to say that this thread is interesting, usefull and informative. Don't you like to keep up with what's going on in the rest of the industry?

[Mad Max]

Thanks for the abuse your majesty – I will try not to take it personally :)

The point is that this thread is not news and it is in the wrong place. The administrators of this forum are obviously aware of that and therefore we are left to our own conclusions as to why they do not wish to move it. As it says in big letters on the way in here – everybody has their own agenda. (Or words to that effect).

As far as my defending my employer is concerned, I do not feel that I have to do that. Let the facts speak for themselves. Look at the company growth rate (including IPO) over the last few years and tell me it’s not a success story.

No company is perfect of course and I for one have witnessed many imperfections in this company, as I have in others I have worked for before. Although I have moved companies several times in the past, I, like many of my colleagues who have been employed from the early days, am still here. On balance I can say that there have been (and still are) plenty of worse places to work.

As usual the vocal minority with strongly felt opinions may appear to be speaking for us all. However, you’ve got to say, that if it was really SO bad as they (NTE & others) make out, then the airline would be unable to operate its aircraft as the majority of the drivers would have voted with their feet!

How many of EZY’s pilots have left in the last 12 months? The answer is very few. The reason cannot be entirely attributable to the effects of 9/11. Note that the company does not seem to feel the need currently to accept DECs, instead they are planning to promote all of their 2003 Commanders from within. With perhaps another 12 or so airframes on the way this coming year, that is another 150 pilot jobs created – all the new Commands from pilots already employed in the right-hand seat!

As far as news of what’s happening in the Low Cost Sector, maybe you’re right – this thread’s just the place to find out how the LCAs are eating into territory held by the “Trads”. There is only one way to do short-haul and make a profit and that is the way we are doing it – the writing’s on the wall.

So as far I am concerned, in respect of adverse comment from a minority, it’s not so much a case of Nil Taurus Excretus, more like Nil Carborundum Illegitimae! :D

Cheers, Max :) :) :)

[The Southend King]

Max

I don't disagree with most of the stuff you say, except the paranoid notion that the moderators of this site have some "agenda" against easyjet (bearing in mind at least two of the moderators work for easyjet)

Looking down the current list of topics on page one of this forum, I see similar discussions involving Virgin , KLMUK, BA/Sabena, Delsey, and MyTravel.

I suspect this thread will shortly be binned anyway as it appears to have wandered into a discussion on PPRuNe Editorial policy.

I'll try not to mention the fact that I've read (or even contributed to) this thread when I go for my interview in the next few weeks. :)

[Mad Max]

Good luck with your interview your majesty!

Max. :) :) :)

[SpannerInTheWerks]

How many easyJet employees have left in the last twelve months? - not many we are informed.

How many easyJet employees will leave within the next twelve months? Who knows - although I hear Channel Express are awash with applications from easyJet flight crews. Manchester and Leeds/Bradford bases for their new low-cost start-up "Fly To", or so the rumour goes! (Philip Meeson speaking on local radio apparently).

;)

[Flap 5]

I have to say Mad Max's protestations are a bit much! easyJet love publicity, good or bad! You only have to see the TV programme 'Airline' to see that! A naff TV programme, telephone numbers all over the side of their aircraft and their (previous) Chairman always seen protesting outside banks, protesting about Luton Airport, about the governments airport tax, etc..

Mad Max I think you aren't in line with your management. They love publicity and would love this thread!