security UK please read!!

[wwIIace]

it is now a joke and i am getting really pissed!!!! everyday going through security at LHR in full uniform with crew, being treated as suspects by foreigners (no offence meant, dont know how else to bet the message accross) and then to get things like toe clippers taken off me or a pair of tweesers!!
these idiots are meant to be protecting me, i dont know why this is such a risk, here i am in full uniform about to operate the aircraft, they take my tweesers off me and i have an axe in the cockpit??
then engineers walk past (probably contracters) with stanley knives, plyers etc etc.
then doing meet and greeting at the door, to come across umbrellas, big bags and artifacts and then the best the other day, a 3 ft sumarai sword!!!! yes, tagged to be put in the hold by ground agents when boarding, got through 2 security points and then it was the honesty of the person to give it to us to put in the hold. what if they then concealed it on boarding, i dont even have my clippers anymore to defend myself!!
please, i wish the security would ease up on us a little and be more realistic, why there is 6 staff to check us (operating crew) and only 4 at the public entrance of security is beyond me.

[finalschecks]

I know man!

Enough is enough. Try basel airport. What a bunch of incompetent f***s. They half-strip us every day, take our nail-clippers for the sake of security, speak only french (on a so-called 3-country "european" airport), etc, etc , etc...

At the same time, mechanics(with sharp tools), ground staff (and cleaners(sorry again, with mostly arabian background) gain access through the back of the airport......... unchecked.

I am not saying arabs should be banned from airports, or mechanics should be prohibited from carrying sharp tools, BUT STOP HARRASSING ME ABOUT MY GO*D*MN TWEEZERS.:mad:

I am a pilot! I already know how to fly my plane (more or less) and don't need nailclippers in order to perform a horrendous act with my airplane! Leave me alone!

[QAR ASR]

One simple point to make, there is no point in confiscating any sharp objects from passengers while glass bottles are sold in duty free.

Ask any casualty Doctor or Nurse if a broken bottle can be used as an offensive weapon.

I forgot BAA regulates security, BAA makes a massive profit from duty free. The alcohol and perfume suppliers will have said they can only redistribute their product in plastic if they increase the price at which they sell it to BAA, thus reducing the profit margin.

Nothing, but nothing, must get in the way of profit.

[cargosales]

Groan. Sympathies here. Perhaps they think you might manicure someone to death? :rolleyes:

Completely daft as long as drinks onboard are served in glasses! Or I can carry on my 5" long stainless steel pen. Etc etc.

With so many potentially lethal objects around, can anyone explain the rationale behind banning nail clippers and tweezers?

CS

[DamienB]

Perhaps they'd rather you were flying the plane than plucking out nose hairs while trimming your toe nails. Just a thought.

[wwIIace]

items such as tweezers etc are normally in your overnight bag for when you get down route!! Singapore still has razor blades in the toilets for passengers on incoming flights to the UK, seems to be rules for one.....

[brockenspectre]

I did write this in reply to the Swiss security thread but it holds even more valid here:

I don't think it ever hurts to bring to "the system's" attention any matter which you, as a sensible, precautionary, adult considers a potential security risk. It is then for "the system" to take this info, consider it appropriately and act or not act. We have to accept that "the system" (be it of an airline, a City/Wall Street bank, an airport, a high-rise building in a capital city, nuclear power-plant, toxic waste disposal unit, pharmaceutical company) has the knowledge and expertise to assess risk in its environment and the willingness to take positive action to minimise/eliminate harm to the general public.

The problem highlighted by the rash and in some cases ludicrous reactions to 9/11 at airports and with airlines is that the majority of the travelling public and flight/cabin crew do not see the majority of new measures as enhancing or in any way improving security on board.

Before anyone works at an airport/airline they should be stringently scrutinised by the host country's security/police service and given a clearance which should include fingerprinting. Security cards, with photos no older than 6m and fingerprints, then issued. Random comparison of the prints on the cards and the person carrying the card to be undertaken at all airports/airlines by an external agency. A mismatch means immediate arrest for the carrier of the card and the person to whom it was issued and their suspension for all time from work with any airport/airline.

For the travelling public, in the UK at least there seemed to be little problem with the one small bag (preferably see-through) to carry on - in fact in various queues I found myself in people were almost vying to have the most effective bag for security folks to check! Dutyfree alcohol and other glassware purchases are the next problem - in the right hands the smallest item (or no item at all) can be deadly. So why not a specific lockable overhead bin for duty-free only? pax to be relieved of purchases while waiting in lounge? then the chance of a drunk angry person waving their own giant bottle around is lessened...

Nothing will prevent a determined criminal/terrorist from attempting to pursue their aims, but like all good crime prevention, all measures introduced should be to make it so tedious that airports and airlines and other likely targets are just too difficult. Downside? non key targets might be selected but when the aim of the current situation appears to be global terror this is less likely.

As with everything, there is one truth. Security measures that should be in place may not be in all sorts of industries and it is vital that the whistle-blower in those industries has a means by which his/her genuine concerns can be raised to appropriate authorities - often the larger the organisation the less possible it is for someone down the "food chain" to air concerns!

JMHO

[Justin Abeaver]

It's all nonsese for crew. I had my nail scissors taken off me at East Midlands and was made to pay for the postage to get them back (I was on a "W" pattern to somewhere hot but ending up in Manchester).

The Israelites have got the right idea and use profilers for the pax. The profilers are not often wrong, and with the history of the 4 by 2's and conflict they know a thing or two about security.

Yes, let's have tight security, but please D for T, MAKE IT USEFUL AND DON'T PAY LIP-SERVICE TO IT.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[P.Pilcher]

I don't know whether screwdrivers are still banned for flight crew or not as I have not carried one for ages. However it amused me that coincidentally with this particular ban coming into effect, my company, keen to do their bit for enhanced security, required us to open and inspect the interior of all openable hatches on the exterior of our aircraft on turnaround. Just in case an engineer or some other person authorised to carry a screwdriver on the apron had used one of these small hatches to locate a bomb in the aircraft. To ensure that this check was carried out, a form was supplied which had to be signed by the captain in numerous places, and handed to the dispatcher before departure. we always departed, usually on schedule.................!

[IcePack]

Yep!
Around that time with the same form. I did not have my screwdriver to open the said hatches as it had been taken off me at security. So I didn't sign the form. Oh what fun that caused in the respect that all parties just didn't see the problem.
I guess security type people think pilots have telekinesis ability.
Hoh! Hum!

Yes security is very very very important. But why do we as pilots put up with this nonsense. It would seem from previous threads that if you mention the crash axe in the flt deck(to Security) you could find oneself under arrest. So we seem to be letting it ride.
More sense is required so security themselves can concentrate more on the real threat.

[max_cont]

What intrigues me is will they confiscate the toenail clippers etc from the US pilots who’re packing a 357 magnum?

You can just hear the conversation. “Sorry sir; you can’t take your clippers or tweezers on board the aircraft, it’s a security risk”:confused: :confused:

[batty]

The other day we had a passenger get on the aircraft at Stn and hand the No 1 an envelope with some sharp scissors in it.

The scissors had been confiscated by security placed in the envelope and give back to the pax with the instruction to hand them in to the crew when she boarded!!!

Mmmmm makes perfect sence to me!!!!:confused:

[atlast]

Courier was fully authorized and approved to carry a handgun. Passing through airport security with the crew a set of nail clippers were found in his carry-on. He was made to break off the nail file portion of the clippers! This just goes to prove that Nail clippers are far more dangerous than a loaded automatic pistol.:D

[jar66]

ok here is one for you,as an engineer with my box of sharp tools [I hear engineers will have to have plastic tools soon] I taxi my cargo aircraft from the hanger do runs and then park on stand I have not been checked at all [hanger is land side not airside] now in the backI can have BIN Larden and 60+ tons of sentex or 60+ tons of metal tea spoons and the BAA Know NOTHING!!!!!!

[Avman]

jar66 , well I would have spotted that you're not an engineer long before you got on stand! If you were, you would know that it's a hangar. Only spotters call them hangers!

[Celtic Emerald]

finalscheck!

They half strip you every day?????

Can I have a job in airport security someone pretty please?????? :D

Emerald

[canberra]

as general melchett said security isnt a dirty word! after 23 years in the raf andhaving been involved in security from time to time it never ceases to amaze me how petty and small minded some so called security people can be. i'm guessing that the people who are taking tweezers off you are probably paid peanuts and get about one hours training. why not treble the security guys pay and allow them to use their judgement, or am i being too logical for the civil aviation industry?

[jar66]

Dear AVMAN, thank you for saying that I am in fact an Engineer as I did call it a HANGER. However what do you call a hanger when there is two or more?
I would love for you to work for us as we could not doubt have a right set too over what Pilot's [if thats what you are] put in tech logs.
One of my favourite pen off's is "pilot changed found satisfactory"
Tat tar for now.:)

[PAXboy]

Canberraor am I being too logical for the civil aviation industry?
No - too logical for policiticians that have their nose firmly placed up Bush's B@ck$ide. :mad:

One other implement that we may carry on board - Nay encouraged to carry on board is the famous lap top computer. Airlines are so keen that they even supply power in the armrest for it.

I wonder if 'Security' have considered the damage that a 2Kg slab of metal and hard plastic does, when swung with force at a human being's head?

[harpy]

Does anyone know the latest count of illegal immigrants found working airside at Heathrow and Gatwick? And should we be worried that they were able to get security passes?

[IcePack]

harpy, yes we should be very worried. The checks if done correctly should not allow illegals to work anywhere!

[kowloon]

Funny you mention magnums (firearms not ice creams) in the cockpit. A few days ago leaving PHX I was receiving a good going over because my stapler looked like a nail clipper on the scanner. So I'm politely taken aside, the bag is sniffed for PX examined and rescanned. I dare mention that I'm not going to clip the captain nor staple on his wig (can't spell 2pay). It seemed a little out of proportion since I had access on the flight deck to a crow bar, steel pen, glass, china and congress approval for a firearm. The guy had no idea. But then they don't pay these guys to think too much do they, just be a good chap and follow procedure I could have passed on the suspect clippers to another flight under duress but thats about the worst I could come with and the bloke agreed. Hopefully another man on our side now. I've ditched the stapler, let the company pick up the paper work.:)

[norodnik]

Flying regulalry, I am getting mighty peed off at the ludicrous delays caused by so called enhanced security.

By way of example:

1) At lhr, small sizzors get by if they are not sharp, needles from sowing kits allowed as is the razor in my wash kit. Also, apparently I am only allowed to take matches on baord if they are in my pocket and not in my brief case ??

2) On board there are glasses, amazingly sharp plastic knifes, bottles, hot water from the galley etc etc

3) Lufthansa have now put back metal knifes and forks. They are much less deadly that the plastic type (except if you throw them I suppose)

4) In Rome, after flight from Cairo, you get your bags X-rayed again coming off the plane ???? Another stupid queue manned by 5 security staff.

The whole thing is a farce and its about time someone did something or people like me will find other ways of doing business.

I want flying to be safe but its no good pretending, either do it properly or not at all

[Bally Heck]

Just to play Devil's advocate.....

1: "Full uniform" is available from most theatrical suppliers or 2nd hand shops or tailors who are paid enough. Airport IDs vary from airport to airport and country to country.

2: If you were a poorly paid, demotivated, untrained security operative, with no discretion about what objects you confiscate, and you were faced with an arrogant "how dare you search me you cretin, don't you know who I am?" individual, What would you do? Personally, I would be donning the latex gloves.

[Tinstaafl]

Norodnik,

Matches & lighters aren't in your pocket instead of your carry on baggage for a security reason. They're there in case one of them ignites.

A flame starting up in your pocket will certainly get noticed - and presumably doused :D - before it becomes a severe fire. A fire tucked away in an overhead locker can become established & spread long before it is noticed, let alone found & extinguished.

[goatgruff]

:rolleyes: Its amazing that so many of you get upset about small items delaying your passage through the security checks, when you know perfectly well that if you put them in the hold baggage you wouldn't have a problem.:rolleyes: :mad:

After all, your employers make it perfectly clear to YOUR customers what can be taken on as cabin baggage and what cannot, so why don't you comply? or perhaps you think you're above aviation security regulations.

It seems that Canberra is the only one who recognises that you critizing the security screeners is totally pointless, they have a crap job, made even worse by your collective arrogance, and are paid peanuts.
If you have a real gripe, which on the face of your postings you don't, put it through your line management to pass on to the regulatory authorities.
:rolleyes: :mad: :rolleyes:

[Fokker-Jock]

Ahh Christ!!!

Are you dumb ?!

You really got the point here did you ?!!

It's not about anyone being above the law.
It's not about not complying with security regs.

It's about the argument for anyone involved in security, to logically reason why flight-crew, who is ultimately in charge of pax-security, to remove petty objects and personal property because some low ranked Iq-dweeb deems it necessary to preserve passenger-safety.

We do our job every-day to fly pax safely from A-B. Can you imagine the irritation it creates being bossed around by some guy claiming you are a security risk ??

How can you make an argument to justify such behaviour ?
That the potential threat is a disguised pilot crashing the aircraft somewhere ??!!
That would mean the same thing as if someone impersonated a security-officer and gave a pax free journey to the A/C with 10 Kg of C4.

My point is this: There is no argument what so ever to justify security-check of any air-crew!?

If so, let's hear them, and I'll give you better arguments against it!!:mad:

[MOR]

There IS an argument for searching flight crews- namely, that they could carry stuff airside and pass it to an accomplice for use on another flight.

Of course, this pales into insignificance next to the monumental folly (in the UK) of allowing Sikhs to carry Holy Kirpans airside(that's a dagger to you and me). The justification for this piece of nonsense is that Sikhs are harmless (apart from the well-known and vicious Sikh extremists, of course).

So now, due to this PC idiocy, Sikhs (and only Sikhs) can carry a deadly weapon about airside. Oh, how safe I feel! Maybe I can get permission to carry an AK47, as my religion demands it...

Getting back to the original point, I can kill everbody on the aircraft (and hundreds on the ground) with one hand. First I use it hit the other guy over the head with, then I push the thrust levers forward, than I push the control column all the way forward. Don't need nail clippers or anything.

The current security measures are nothing more than a joke (a bad joke if you happen to be flight crew).

[Johnny 7]

Are screeners paid peanuts ? I'm not sure BAA pay that poorly .

[luddite]

The whole 'system' is barking.
Not long ago I needed to do a daily on my flying device. Not possible without a screwdriver. (No I haven't mastered the art of undoing screws with the fire axe.) Luckily I managed to borow one via Servisair but that only half helped because some bright spark had replaced the screws around one panel with Phillips and the borrowed screwdriver was the flat variety.
Another day down route the handling agent gave me a plastic bag chockful of Swiss army knives/Leathermans/kitchen knives for safekeeping, to be returned to pax back home. Just what I desperately needed days before. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Earthmover]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't an L-1011 blown in half at (I think) Colombo by a guy dressed in the uniform of a Captain? (Admittedly some years ago, at a time when a pilot, to prove a point, got away for over a year with a picture of a lowland gorilla on his ID)

After the events of last year it is inevitable that Western Democracies will react with what they're best at - nitpicking bureaucracy. But as for the Security person, well there ain't no point in shooting the messenger - he/she can do no more to change things than we can. And I can't quite remember the last time I had time for a manicure on a short haul European sector, so my nail clippers get used at home.

[Dyna Soar]

goatgruff....


As an ATCO, you can be forgiven for not realizing that the majority of us are not able to check in our bags. We are normally required to carry all of our kit through the security process, as (certainly in the case of short-haul pilots) our companies do not make provision for us to check luggage in. With the nature of multi-sector days and aircraft swaps, it would be impractical to do so.

This result is that we will often find ourselves away from home, for perhaps up to five nights, without certain items related to basic personal hygiene.

We are also no longer able to carry the multitools / swiss army knives that we previously used to perform minor repairs. You might consider this to be irrelevant, but I suspect that I’m not the only one who has had to delay the dispatch of my aircraft, while attempting to find an engineer to fix a minor problem down route (which I would previously have dealt with myself), because I have not had the most basic of tools available.

My guess is that most of us would readily accept this state of affairs, if it had any positive impact on security. However, the reality is that it does not. Since any pilot has the ability to do much more harm to/with their aircraft by using their bare hands, rather than a weapon, the only justification for restrictions is the slim possibility that they might pass something on. Any group who is intent on smuggling weapons on to an aircraft, will exploit one of the many ‘holes’ in the cosmetic security net. This would allow them to smuggle significant weapons with a much smaller risk of detection. I consider it unlikely that a terrorist group would attempt to seize an aircraft using pocketknives when the public is now fully aware of the September 11th scenarios. We should all remember that the really dangerous people have no need to carry weapons on to an aircraft.

Also, remember that customs and police officers are allowed to pass through security points completely unchecked. There is no reason to believe that they present any less risk to security than pilots and yet they are able to carry just about anything airside without challenge.

Dyna

:cool:

[MOR]

Divergent Phugoid!

You silly boy (or girl)

Flight crew often go on extended trips, sometimes for a few days and sometimes for weeks. It is therefore fairly obvious why they would want to carry personal grooming accessories, isn't it...???

One Ppruner called some one an IQ dweeb, and then proceeded to type complete and utter rubbish.

More accurately stated as:

One Ppruner called pilots stupid and arrogant, and then proceeded to type complete and utter (stupid and arrogant) rubbish.

Pot calling the kettle black, methinks...

[MOR]

Own goal? Hardly.

I can not beleive that the obvious has been missed here,
DONT BRING CLIPPERS OR TWEEZERS ON BOARD!


Funny old thing, but on the aircraft I fly, "on board" includes the holds.

Now if you meant "on the flight deck", you should have said so...

More to the point, you completely misunderstand the problem. It isn't about authority, or a response to it, but about the complete futility of the measures being employed. Not to mention the stupidity shown by some security staff, such as the one that confiscated a three inch model rifle from a GI Joe toy on the basis that it was a "replica weapon"...

There was absolutely no chance that security could have detected the Sept 11 hijackers. What possible clue could there have been? Even now, NONE of the security measures now in force could stop a repeat attempt- not until the reinforced doors are mandatory next year- and in any case, with a key available in the cabin, the efficacy of a strengthened door is moot.

In fact the more I read your post, the more convinced I get that you aren't a pilot at all- you clearly have no appreciation of the situation.

[Divergent Phugoid!]

MOR..

You are not even worth spending any more time that it takes to type this....

Stupid Arrogant and I forgot Pedantic too!!

The term used to describe some aircrew..


If the Hat fits....


:D :D

[wwIIace]

MOR is right,
i have to carry my bag with me, and THEN when i get to the aircraft i then put it in the hold myself, so with that case, i cant even get it to put in the hold!! the main point you are also missing is that i am already in the cockpit, so a weapon to gain access is futile, i am already in command! secondly, the 'weapons' i am talking about are not dangerous in any sense of the manor, there are far more dangerous things on the aircraft.

[btmtdi]

If Al-Qeada's aim was to get the handbags flying on Pprune they have certainly had more success than they could have dreamed of. Please can some one close this thread NOW !