what would you buy for 30 grand? [Archive]

jerseymilkman

24th Sep 2002, 16:16

Would this not be better in the private flying forum???

It depends on too many things - what you want to use it for - experience - is £30K your total budget (as you have to allow so much for running costs that if it is you would be better getting an agreed rate for multiple hire hours) - etc ad infinitum...

Personally - when hours building - bought an AA5A - great fun - but still expensive to run......

JM

STANDTO

24th Sep 2002, 16:52

quite right. How do you move it?

Oscar Duece

25th Sep 2002, 09:27

The best aircraft I have flown in that range would be the lovely AA5A or B. Although a B might stretch the pocket.

A model (150 Hp) is faster and more responsive than a PA28 flying barge or a C172. Trust Lycoming engine (no ad's or special oil due to excesive wear. with a 172 30k would get you).

Robust load carriers with good range. Just don't believe all those geleous PA28 and C172 owners you will warn about the castoring nose wheel or very slightly higher stall speed. It's just flak to cover up a better craft.

If your going int touring. I would try and stretch for a B model 180 Hp Tiger). Had great fun with two mates and baggage down in S France and into spain a few years back. They were the days. (G-BIPV & PORK). Sadly the club changed to barges, so I changed clubs....

LowNSlow

25th Sep 2002, 13:47

30k would get you a very nice AA-5A or an OK AA-5B (wasn't G-BIPV lovely).

Or,

How about a replica WW1 SE-5a for the wind in the hair and bugs in the teeth experience and a Jodel D-120 (not sure of the model)to do some serious touring but only 2 of you though. You could get both for 30k total if you look around

Or

An OK-ish Tiger Moth (well maybe 35k)

Or

A reasonable Chipmunk

Or

An RV6, 8 or 9 but you would have to build it.

Or

1/2 of a nice Rockwell Commander

I've run out of Or's now, must nip off and check Pilot/Flyer :D :D

Cat.S

25th Sep 2002, 15:04

I'd like a nice Rallye Minerva- 4 seats, wider than a PA28 inside, sliding canopy, forgiving undercarriage and great short field capability. It would have to be one without rot though!

Whipping Boy's SATCO

25th Sep 2002, 16:25

A box of chocolates (maybe 2) for the wife and then an RV9.

QDMQDMQDM

25th Sep 2002, 17:45

Nice Super Cub. Are there any other aircraft?
;)

QDM

chrisN

25th Sep 2002, 18:02

QDM: Supercub? I know of one for sale if you are interested!

Tiger_ Moth

25th Sep 2002, 18:38

I'd get a dangerously cheap Tiger Moth.

LowNslow, where can you get a replica Se5a and how cheap is it? Are you sure it's not a currie wot because those don't look too good. Is it a proper, convincing looking replica because I'd love one of those and I'm surprised to hear it could be bought for £30 K + a jodel (unless it is infact a currie wot).

By the way, what kind of price would a decent conditioned chipmunk be?

QDMQDMQDM

25th Sep 2002, 19:13

QDM: Supercub? I know of one for sale if you are interested!

Got one already, I'm afraid!

QDM

TheKentishFledgling

25th Sep 2002, 19:56

A Pitts :)

(eh, Stik?)

tKF

paulo

25th Sep 2002, 23:55

Pitts.

If only I had already got my 'Pitts Feet'. :-(

LowNSlow

26th Sep 2002, 04:48

Tiger_Moth join the PFA and/or visit their website (pfa.org.uk). There are a few Se5a replicas around, they are 7/10ths scale (?) and look very convincing. They come up for sale occasionally and are around the 15k mark. There are always a few of the 2 seat Jodels in there for the same kind of cash.

PS A dangerously cheap Tiger Moth is exactly that! I know a chap who bought what appeared to be a good servicable Moth. It had been apparently maintained well. For his Annual this year he thought there would be no major problems. Wrong. Both upper wing main spars had been crushed at their strut mounting points by overtightened clamps. Expensive job to cut open fabric and let in new wood.........(using approved repair procedures I hasten to add).

STANDTO

26th Sep 2002, 06:53

PPRuNe - the worlds greatest search engine!

To narrow the parameters a bit, four seater capable of UK/Euro touring.

Thanks for your suggestions

QDMQDMQDM

26th Sep 2002, 07:18

In this class, the most aircraft for your money is probably a 180HP Maule. But some like them and some don't.

QDM

Julian

26th Sep 2002, 07:39

I'd go over to the US and get myself a C310 on a N Reg, there are a few floating about over there at very reasonable prices - if you afford a few quid more you can get one with some nice onboard avionics.

Julian.

fullyestablished

28th Sep 2002, 21:37

I thjink that the Maule 180 is a good suggestion, also there are some Piper Dakotas going for very little money (PA28-235) and that will certainly haul all four of you and your duty free at 135k. Always bear in mind that the maintenance costs are proportional to the original purchase price, not the price that you pay!

AerBabe

28th Sep 2002, 21:51

Chipmunk!!! :) :o What else? ;)

EI_Sparks

29th Sep 2002, 00:08

Hmmm - a PA18 or a J3 ... though I'd much rather blow some more money and get a Stearman Kadet :)

LowNSlow

29th Sep 2002, 03:42

STANDTO if it's 4 seats and touring for 30k than an AA5-A or B is the way to go. Much nicer than a PA-28 to fly and faster than a C172.

However if you actually want to FILL the 4 seats AND go touring then a Piper Dakota / Cherokee Six is the only options I can think of for 30k and you'll have to search for one at that price. If you want to spend a bit more, there are a few Reims Rockets (C172 with 210hp engine) around which have great short field capabilities.

criticalmass

29th Sep 2002, 09:13

Jabiru J-200 with 4-cyl 2200cc Jabiru engine. Terrific little aircraft, tough as nails, sleek as a gazelle, cheap as chips to operate. A gem in composite.:D

Grob Driver

8th Nov 2002, 20:23

I'd be looking for a Yak 18T or a chipmunk.... But preferable the Yak!

slim_slag

8th Nov 2002, 21:55

£30k would buy you a RV-7 standard kit, mid time engine and enough avionics to get you from A->B. A better bargain in aviation cannot be had.

bluskis

8th Nov 2002, 22:51

Afraid I remember the time when 30G would buy you 27 assorted Tigers and Chipmunks. Was going to buy a Tiger but they wouldn't drop the last £100, so didn't. Big bad decision.

What you buy depends on your current experience, and probably better spent if you can get one to three reliable partners to share as the costs of ownership are somewhat hours flown per year dependent.

Start new as possible, and as simple as possible, you will soon be trading up in accordance with Parkinsons law of aeroplane ownership.

Shaggy Sheep Driver

8th Nov 2002, 23:01

Chipmunk!!! What else?

Much though I love DH's classic, for 30K there's no contest - Yak 52.

The Chippy isn't half as much of an aeroplane as the '52, and costs far more in maintenance.

The Yak costs in fuel - but as a sole owner, that would be still a lot cheaper per hour than the Chippy.

Bangs per buck - nothing comes close to a Yak!

SSD

Lowtimer

9th Nov 2002, 06:26

Agree with SSD, but then you'd expect me to. However, I think I'd prefer to spend 40K on a really nice one than 30 on one with more rough edges. For a genuinely sub £30K aeroplane I'd be tempted by the fresh-off-full-restoration AOP9 in one of the magazines this month at £22K. For a 4-seat tourer, at that money, a Rallye Commodore and a very careful corrosion inspection.

Flyin'Dutch'

9th Nov 2002, 07:18

Just goes to show that when you ask 20 pilots what they think is the ideal mount you end up with 40 answers!

The correct answer obviously can only given by the person asking the question.

After all you are the one that has to live with the choice.

Final decision will depend on a great number of variables, you mention touring in Europe for 4.

Other points to take into consideration:

VFR/IFR
Country of registration
Hangar or outside
Where do you keep it tarmac/grass/strip
Thickness of wallet to cope with annual/recurring costs
Taste

If 30K is the limit and your budget for ongoing issues is not unlimited you could not far go wrong by buying something 'standard' like a C172 or PA28. May be not the most exciting of mounts but certainly up to the job and fairly well chartered terrain when it comes to maintenance, AD's etc.

Bit more sprightly would be an AA5.

If you have hangarage available you could consider a 4 seat Maule (although I think you need more than 30K for that) or a smaller Robin (as in with the smaller engine) but you really need to fly out of a tarmac runway if you want to go 4 up with reasonable fuel. Once they get going there are few 4 seaters that will beat them in fuel economy and speed. They can be perfectly well operated out of grass but near AUW use a bit of runway on grass.

If you fancy something more esoteric you could consider something as fancy as a Bellanca Viking as currently for sale in one of the mags; retract; 250hp etc. But you are then operating a serious class of aeroplane with the associated ongoing costs.

As always: Horses for courses.

Enjoy the looking around.

FD

Whirlybird

9th Nov 2002, 09:32

You can't buy a helicopter for 30 grand. :( :( :( :( :(

So I'd have to find two other people with the same amount of dosh so that we could buy an R22, or maybe a Hughes 300. Or maybe I'd consider a Brantly B2B - not sure you can get one for that amount, but I think you could - if you could find it.

englishal

9th Nov 2002, 10:09

You can't RUN a helicopter for 30 grand :D

Genghis the Engineer

9th Nov 2002, 17:41

Depends of-course on what you've already got to fly.

Adding to my current 1 + 1/2 + 1/17 I think at the moment I'd rather fancy the new Quik 912S (http://www.pegasusaviation.co.uk/Pegasus/Flexwing_Quik/Technical_Data.htm) having had a chat with Billy Brooks (the designer and test pilot) last week and been very impressed - particularly the bit about passing a PA28 (I'm assuming a heavy 140, but impressive nonetheless) in level flight and spend the rest on running it for 5 years or so.

Sadly, the reality is probably that if I did suddenly find £30k Mrs Genghis would tell me I've quite enough aeroplanes already and make me pay off the mortgage. Sadly, with the honorable exception of Whirly, many women tend that that sort of view on life.

G

bottieburp

10th Nov 2002, 07:28

I think if I was looking now for a fun aircraft that could also carry 4 people at a good speed and in comfort, the secret is now out!

Take a look at the Bolkow 207.

A large, impressive 4-seat taildragger, good looks, beautifully made out of wood and composite, docile handling etc. but...why so cheap?

You can buy one for 'low 20's'. Incredible value.

If you can't affford a Robin it is a most worthy alternative at (comparitively) less than half.

THere is one at Turweston - the owner raves about it - I have had a go too.

Maintenance costs seem reasonable. In fact, that one is maintained in Germany - the owner looks forward to the Annual pilgrimage. THere is no 3-year 'CofA' (Star Annual) involved, just perpetual Annuals - costs seem very reasonable by UK standards and more than compensates for the (therefore free!) trip.

One of the easier taildraggers with good crosswind capabilities, good visibility over the nose, very strong undercarriage and powerful differential brakes.

Snap one up quick - I think there are one or two on the market - before the prices become more realistic.

I saw a feature recently - can't think where at the moment.

BB

Whirlybird

10th Nov 2002, 10:08

Genghis,

I appreciate the honourable mention...but shame on you for that generalisation. :( Forget mortgages, I think Aerbabe wouldn't even object to being homeless if she could fly her very own chippie! And I know of a fair number of other women, including some on this forum whose names don't immediately spring to my mind on a Sunday morning after a late Saturday night, who would get airborne first and make peace with the building society later.

Anyway, we were fantasising. Don't go bringing cold reality into it.;)

But please, whoever started this thread, can we have a more realistic sum for a helicopter pilot? How about £300,000. Ahhh, for that amount....

STANDTO

10th Nov 2002, 10:41

Whirlybird

Choppers are my first love, but, the 300 grand says it all. Too expensive so I've binned that idea until the Lotto finally matches up their numbers with mine.

If I was going rotary, I still think the sexiest thing ever built was the Hughes (MD) 500. Magnum PI, Capricorn One, all essential viewing for appreciators of the marque.

18greens

10th Nov 2002, 11:10

Since as the saying goes if it flies floats or f*** its cheaper to rent it so for 30 grand I would buy:

300 ish hours in a Grumman Tiger

150 hours in a Pitts or a Yak 52

20 hours in a Hunter (Surely the best bang per buck you can buy, faster and cheaper than a spitfire)

Or any combination of the above and the option to chop and change as you please.

By all means if you really want the romance of ownership do so but it will cost you.

Good luck.

STANDTO

10th Nov 2002, 11:15

Just had a look around at the Bolkow - what a fine looking craft. When were the last ones built? the ones I've come across on the web seem to be 61-64. Also, how much life is left in a 40 year old a/c before it expires or needs taking tobits and rebuilding? Is that why they are soooooo cheap?

TheKentishFledgling

10th Nov 2002, 11:42

20 hours in a Hunter (Surely the best bang per buck you can buy, faster and cheaper than a spitfire)

Is that really true, that a Spitfire is more expensive to fly than a Hunter?

tKF

Whirlybird

10th Nov 2002, 17:54

STANDTO,

I definitely agree about the Hughes 500. Supposed to be as nice to fly as it is to look at too - I haven't even been able to afford to try it yet. :( If I win the lottery I'll buy one and take you flying in it. ;)

STANDTO

10th Nov 2002, 20:37

Whirly bird

You are well within striking distance in N wales. Sometimes feel a bit isolated out here on Frag Rock.

Believe the SAR record from Valley was around 18 mins with a tail wind, a couple of years ago when a trawler went down.

I didn' win again this week end. Beginning to think it is rigged. Mind you, with the number of ex cons winning, a copper has to be due a biggie!

bottieburp

10th Nov 2002, 22:08

Hi Standto!

I can tell that you are hooked on the 207 already!

Why are they so cheap?

Only because they have a little wheel at the back - thats all. As an old git I actually learned on them (Aaaaah Condors!).

However, a conversion to the 207 will present an average 'spamcan' PPL with few problems. Its a different mindset thats all.

If you were taught right you will have learned stick and rudder skills anyway. Its just a matter of revisiting/ refreshing/ honing those skills under the guidance of an instructor. 2 or 3 hours at most and then stick to 'into wind' operation until you'r feeling cocky.

You'll enjoy it too! And you thought that pedalling was only what you needed to do to get the lard of your belly!

No problem with old wooden planes - I flew a 1936 wooden plane to Sweden in June(see Pilot Nov. 02) - pretty much still stuck together with the same stuff they slapped on it a Woodley, Reading all those years ago.

Wood is natures composite - a remarkable material.

My fairly new Robin is made of Oregon Pine and plywood.

THere are 30 year old/ 25000+ hour Robins in France that are doing just great.

In fact, I bumped into one recently that I instructed on 23 years ago. With 12500 hours on the airframe it still looks as good now as it did then!

Check out the Bolkow and snap one up before the word gets round.

If you are serious, Email me and I will put you in touch with an owner.

BB

Potter1

11th Nov 2002, 07:50

I’ve just bought a Bolkow 207. It’s one of the nicest aircraft I’ve flow, 7gph and 125+Kts cruise. 500kg load carrier, that’s 4 people, lots of fuel and baggage, the aircraft is has 1500hrs on the airframe and 400 hrs on the engine. All for £21000. Many people compare them to the large Jodel D 140 Mousquetaire. They have similar specs, but for half the price.

Insurance is quite reasonable, we paid £1200 for 1M cover and hull with German & MOD cover.

There are 10 207’s flying in the UK at the moment, mostly on the German register.

The last production aircraft was 1964 (I think) and less than 100 ever built, I think there are about 50 still flying in the world, most in Germany.

Having never flow a tail dragger before I did a 5 hr conversion in a cub and then went straight onto the Bolkow, one nice Saturday and 3 hours later with the owner I was perfectly happy to go off by myself.

P…