Crabs In Brno

[cobaltfrog]

HMMM! lets try and be rational about this one!

Spend two weeks working your butt off with the elite then get to go home knackered to find VC10 delayed by two hours and when it does turn up the crew spend an hour faffing around buying their duty free!!

Is this standard RAF practice when you are 2 hours late and to do it in front of your passengers!

Come on boys get a grip!

INCOMING!!

[BEagle]

Sometimes it takes quite a while to unload/reload freight various, get the manifest correct, get the refuelling completed and the pax numbers agreed before the ac can crank up.

But every effort should be made to depart on time - swanning off to buy the odd bottle would NOT be acceptable if the ac was otherwise ready to depart on time.

Then there's the odd CTOT/ flight plan cock-up to sort out, of course....

These are reasons, not excuses. The fact is that you, like I once used to be, were probably held in some grotty holding pen by the movers and all you saw was the crew nipping off to buy some DF and you weren't told the real reason for your delay or the anticipated ETD - hence you probably jumped to ill-informed conclusions. Sorry (and no, it wasn't me - I'm on leave!) - but there it is. Hope you enjoyed the 34" seat pitch though. A damn sight more than you get on DTMA chartered ac, incidentally!

[Specaircrew]

It usually takes the engineers a minimum of 1.5 hours to refuel and service the jet and as the crew normally start their pre flights about an hour before there's no reason why they shouldn't stretch their legs and nip off to the duty free shop. Besides it takes a finite time for the movers to give your bags a good kicking before putting most of them on the wrong aircraft!

If it's any consolation the crew that flew the jet out will sometimes have to pax back with you, often spending over 20 hours in the aircraft, so I wouldn't begrudge them a few minutes in the fresh air!

[Charlie Croker]

Did they make a lunch? ;)

[teeteringhead]

This is probably a silly question ........

Having had the odd jump-seat trip (pre 9/11) with an old mate doing bucket and spade runs in a 757, they consistently turned it round (or a bunch of Manuels or Stavros' did) in < 45 mins.

So why does a VC10 take 1.5-2hrs? Nothing to do with the (excellent) seat pitch surely BEags??;)

[BEagle]

Several reasons:

1. Most bucKet-and-spade airlines have proper flight dispatch facilities at the airports they use - the load sheet will be ready pretty well straight away. Plus they don't have to rely on the negative synergy of loadmasters versus movers.

2. The constipating bureaucracy of the engineering branch and its approach to aircraft servicing-to-death.

3. Who else operates such ancient aeroplanes? More modern aeroplanes are designed for rapid turn rounds; shut down, punters out, fuel in, cleaners in, cleaners out, punters in crank up and away is the name of the game.

[USasBRIEFED]

I am informed that 2 hr delay was a engineering delay nothing to do with crew, by all accounts bl**dy lucky to get a jet at all!
As for turn around times ask a mover or 2 or 3.

[canberra]

if you have a complaint about your vc10 crew i would suggest you write to oc 10 sqn, this forum shouldnt be used for inter service bickering. im not going to complain on here about pongos and matelots who try and smuggle contraband in their luggage, i just tell the movers!

[Specaircrew]

You're a bit out of date Canberra, 10 Sqn isn't the only VC10 AT/AAR Sqn these days. Anyway it's far more fun to slag off Pongos in public;)

[Tiger Tim]

Canberra, when you discourage 'inter-service bickering' on PPrune, do you mean the same bickering that you used in the Falkland's thread? See quote below. Doh!

'what do you mean by winging crab? do you mean whinging crab? by crab do you mean the royal air force that unlike the royal navy and most of the army wasnt on leave at the time of the falklands invasion!! yes we could beat the argies if they decided to invade again, and just like last time we would have to use merchant ships and use the american base on ascension island. and yet again we would be subjected to a navy lead pr campaign that denigrates the raf contribution'.

Just let the guys get on with it.....it normally brings out a few unknown facts for all sides and makes us feel better too!

[cobaltfrog]

I am glad I have envoked such response!

Beags thanks for the enlightenment on VC 10 ops
Canberra Get a life!
And all others maybe the movers should get it. However, we were called backwards and forwards to the aircraft like yo-yo's so maybe a mover would like to comment!
As for lucky to get an aircraft at all! Ummmm They look well well past their sell by date! But It got me from A to B eventually!

Fly Royal/Navy

[Specaircrew]

Unfortunately some movers give the AT fleet a bad name and AT crews have to suffer their incompetance as well. For example when returning by Tristar from the US the hold baggage had to be checked in 6 hours before the aircraft was due to arrive at the airport. Many hours at later in the UK where were 30% of those bags...............still on the pan 3000 miles away! They'd forgotten to load a whole pallet!!!!

In the old days you could spot the numptys on the pan because they wore council workmans jackets but unfortunately everybody wears them now(except me) so they're difficult to spot. Top tip, if you hear somebody mumbling 'bags on, pax on, pax off bags off' to themselves that'll be a mover!

[Reichman]

Mover. The sort of person you could punch in the face all day long and still feel no remorse at the end of it. Glad my current type is well out of their reach, even if I have to put my own bag on board.

[sf mov]

spec aircrew : what about the ascoteers who swan around down route and give the AT fleet a bad name ??

beagle : bucket and spade airlines do not have the negative synergy of loadmasters v movers for one good reason, they only employ handling agents and not loadmasters !!

reichmann : considering you are one of HM' s finest and a born leader, your ramblings about movers are something i would expect to be scrawled on a toilet wall not here on a sensible forum!

cobalt frog : the yo-yo syndrome of pax on/ pax off was probably due to the crew changing their minds not the movers.

we all have difficult jobs to do in bad conditions, so lets try to improve things not slag each other off, which only enlarges the gap between the sharp and blunty ends.

thank you.

[Reichman]

Dear SF Mov

It is merely my considered opinion based on the fact that I've had to suffer the complete jobsworth attitude of the said "bag smashers" for 3 tours.

And I thought pprune was the place to vent my feelings.

And you don't do anything to dispell my feelings with that rather noncy monicker. SF Mov? Ranks along with Tactical Admin Wing. Or are you able to lose luggage whilst wearing NVGs.

And I'll carry my own bags thanks.

[Specaircrew]

One has to feel sorry for a mover who feels the need to visit an aircrew website and browse a forum specifically for military aircrew. What's the matter is the Samsonite website a bit boring then?

[BEagle]

Actually, my 'negative synergy' comment wasn't intended to provoke a rash of anti-Air Movs rhetoric. What I was getting at is the fact that one's Vickers Funbus will often arrive somewhere with its own movers on board. They will then have the thankless task of unloading it, which might well include having to manhandle loaded freight pallets in very hot climates (whilst wearing those stupid yellow road-diggers' coats), break down and rebuild the damn things, log all the sundry items which our grunt chums wish to include on the pallet and then reload them back into the aeroplane. Then they have to sort out the passenger manifest and prepare the paperwork. This is then given to the ALM who will check it all, check the pallets, query the contents thereof and finally announce that its OK. Bear in mind that they will scrutinise the movers' paperwork with a fine tooth comb and consult The Book at regular intervals to make sure that some obscure regulation hasn't been breached. Once they're happy, the ac load distribution is then calculated and the trim sheet finalised before the aircrew can confirm that the fuel load is OK and that the pax can leave the air conditioned luxury of their executive airport lounge and be herded onboard for their complimentary Moet and canapes....... Or yummy cardboard box.

Having watched the mobile movs mob struggling in the heat at places like Freetown (or even Hannover in high summer) to turn round the load quickly, I can certainly say that theirs isn't always a particularly easy job!

But, of course, communication is everthing and it wouldn't take very much for someone to say "Sorry, the aircraft is being reloaded and refuelled so we'll be keeping you in the lounge until it's ready - but we'll be as quick as we can" rather than lounge around in a yellow coat listening to walkie-talkie squeaks and gargles from the aeroplane, whilst the pax wonder what the heck is really going on! I recall after our APC Det in 1982 looking out of the waiting area at Akrotiri after wondering why we'd been kept hanging around - and there was a step ladder up underneath the wing of 'our' VC10 with some head shaking and chin scratching from the engineers much in evidence. So I rang Air Ops - "Hello, could you confirm that Ascot **** is due to leave at ****Z please?" "No, there's a tech snag which should be fixed in the next hour, so it'll be about 60 minutes late off chocks", came the reply. Then I asked the mover when we'd be boarding "Soon, I think", he said. Told him about the delay but he said that I was wrong. Pointed to the jet outside the window and suggested that he might like to check. He did - then came the Tannoy announcing a 'slight delay'.....

Bucket-and-spade operators have someone to prepare the trim sheet, very simple loads and established routines. So herding the lager louts off and on is indeed pretty simple for them to do in 30 minutes or less.....

[sf mov]

Beagle, thank you for a considered reply which has partly restored my faith in the Ascoteers.

Spec aircrew/Reichmann, think you should read the pprune home page, where it quite catagorically states " Air traffic controllers, engineers, cabin crew, operations, crewing and rostering staff ARE ALSO WELCOME, as well as ANYBODY else with a connection or interest in professional aviation "

I actually enjoy reading stereotypes like you ranting and raving against anybody and everything, it makes the forum very colourful.

p.s. don't always believe the profile ?
:p

[Reichman]

SF Mov,

Oh come on, I don't rant against everything - just movers. ;)
You should be proud to be in a profession at the top of my list of Professions We Can Do Without:

1. Movers
2. Brize Air Traffic
3. RAF Police
4. Ops Support

And how do you know I'm a stereotype? I like all forms of High Fidelity music systems.

Luv

Reichman

[Specaircrew]

Ah, but to be fair to Brize ATC they do sometimes provide girlies at Happy Hour that you can ply with drink then do snogging and stuff:)

[Not Imprest]

Happy Hour? At Brize? Are you SURE? I didn't realize it existed...:p

[sf mov]

REICHMANN

nice to be at top of your hit list, however, dissapointed that we are above RAF policemen, even I hate them, although that is probably the result of a mispent youth.
thanks for the banter, have missed it over the past 4 years, heavylift only had direct entry hating the ex AT types.

ps. spec aircrew. is caz one of those girlies that brize atc provide ?

pps. are you still on the run in south america.??:p

[BEagle]

No - the delightful Caz left HMFC a few years ago now.

But SpecA continues to uphold the tradition of maintaining sound aircrew/ATC liaison with the tower ladies......

[RoboAlbert]

SFM - Heavylift hate ex AT types - why's that then?

[keiysersaucy]

Dear SF Mov I see you display the same attitude as most movers, as "it was probably the aircrew changing their mind not the movers" shows how you seem to be able to give a briefing about a situation you you knew nothing about shifting blame on to everyone else. If cobalt frog is part of the "elite" I picked up, and was complaining, then perhaps him and the other part time weekend warriors could get a herc next time, as there weren't that many of you, and stop wasting our weekends being your taxi service. Nice to know you are being appreciated.

[Bolt-On]

I'm not sure who SF Mover is refering to when refering to "Ascoteers swaning around the route" could it be those idle crews who have invariably just worked 16 hrs looking forward to 12.5 hours rest having crossed several time zones. Swaning my arse!

[Archimedes]

SpecA, how could you possibly call this:

http://www.samsonite.com/


'boring'?

It looks very....er...... informative.
:p

[Specaircrew]

Yes but look at the 'Travel Centre' link; the average mover thinks that the 'Fabulous destinations for you and your Samsonite' are supposed to be two different places .

[timex]

Kiersaucy not all were TA and even if we were does that make it OK? The cab was late. OK no prob but it would have been polite if someone had just turned round and said why. 12 of the guys there were also mil. pilots and not one of us would turn up late and not explain why. Thanks for the lift, I do believe it's your job?

[JohnB]

"as there weren't that many of you, and stop wasting our weekends being your taxi service"

Thats what I thought the transport fleet was for - either as a taxi service taking pax to their detination or as flying trucks taking frieght to where it needs to go. Apart from being used as fuel tankers that is.

Reminds of the Hercules captain who flew a Caribean trainer to Belize in 1989. He was asked by my Flt Sgt if he had had a good trip the answer was 'No!'

'Oh' said the FS 'whys that then?'

. . . .Lyneham had utilised the aicraft by putting a load on for Belize and Belize had the audacity to put a back load on HIS aircraft!

[Grimweasel]

SF MOV.. I do hope that the SF in your name refers to something other than the obvious?
After all which members of that 'fraternty' go shouting about what they do for a job? This can only lead me to the conclusion that you must be in Red Troop under 'Henno' (aka Ross Kemp)
as that too is a bunch of ar*e!!

Or maybe it stands for Silly Fat, Stupid F**ker, Samsonite Fouler or just plain Sandwich Fleecer?

Movers are the bain of everyones life. Ditch the green gear and guns as its not yer trade. Stick to being Travel Agents... Which coach did you want me to get on????

[cobaltfrog]

Kaisersaucy,

I am not nor claim to be part of the elite. I am however a military pilot who prides himself on being in the right place at the right time. I realise that technical hitches happen but as Timex (a vastly experienced operator) will back up that all it requires is someone to say what is going on.
If you were vaguely military you would understand concurrent activity.... something we could have got on with if we were informed.
As for being a taxi service....well...YOU ARE!
Work harder next time and you could fly jets!!
Don't bring down the rest of your fraternity who are exceptional blokes with a comment like that!

[keiysersaucy]

Dear cobalt frog,
According to the schedual we we given, I thought we were on time. Apologies if the movers hadn't told you of any change/ delay we knew nothing about. Yes we are a taxi service, no arguement there. It would be nice if this overstretched resource was overstretched on something else, a bit more specialised than taking t.a. on their boy scout weekends. I think my annoyance is directed to our "superiors" who fiddle whist Rome burns, not at the boys and girls using the taxi service. I have no problem with the t.a. as long as the regulars have enough kit and people to do their job, (not forgetting the reservists that presently are full timers plugging some of the gaps)
As for not being good enough for fast jets, you are probably right. Thank you for pointing that out, a true military aviator if ever there was one, but I still feel that I would be even more disalusioned with that , than I am now. If the sight of the crew buying d.f.'s whilst the a/c is turned round makes you want to complain on a forum like this, perhaps you have issues yourself. I hope you don't reply as this forum really does bring out the very worst in me.

:D

[JohnB]

So lets get this straight....

The passengers say the aircraft was 2 hours late.
The crew say the aircraft was on time.

Just a thought, (apart from it was all the movers fault) the
Czech Republic is 2 hours ahead of GMT.

If the pax were expecting the aircraft at, for example, 12:00 local, the GMT time would have been 10:00. Perhaps that could explain an apparent 2 hour delay.

No reason to tell the passengers the aircraft was delayed because ... it wasn't!!!

Apologises to the movers???.......Doubt that will be forthcomming

[tone-uncage-fire]

Doesnt everyone in the RAF put SF into there job description.... even the pilots?
There was a time (when NVGs were newish) that every crab who could fly at night introduced themselves as SF something something something......
Of course the venerable RN 'junglies', Booties and AAC are all "SF" crews...... but of course they never use such titles to glamourise our own worth.

And while Im at it, why on earth do you wear 'wings' on a woolly pully, and on your combats, whats all that about? All a bit posy isnt it lads?

Cobaltfrog: At the risk of supporting the crabs, pilots, loadies, movers et al........ there was almost certainly a good reason; the crabs only real crime is that they are so full of their own importance (as highlighted by the answers above) that you the pax, the customer, are never ever told what the delay is, or why. (Its a customer relations problem). Then again, as they are all SF, I guess its a secret.

1997, Exercise Ocean Wave:

After 5 months away from Blighty we launched on the venerable VC10 from Singapore. Unfortunately after take-off the flaps took 45mins to retract...obviously a snag somewhere.

Landed in Sri Lanka and pressed again.... great seats on the -10, but again over half an hour to get the flaps up.

Landed in Oman and surprise surprise were told they had discovered a flap problem out of Colombo!

3 nights at the Muscat Intercontinental while they flew the aircraft back to the UK (no pax allowed apparently) and then returned to pick us up.

Chatting to a loadie (by the pool) I enquired about the double standard..Happy to carry pax out of Sri Lanka...not happy out of Oman?
Ans: "Allowances old boy..... far better in Oman."

Credit where credit is due though: Hotel, phone calls, food and wine - it was the most organised part of the experience...... and nothing better than watching 40+ matelots tuck into Lobster Bisque on someone elses expense account.

Now Im in the trash hauling business myself - I kind of understand. (But Colombo is a good run-ashore!)

[BlueEagle]

In 1997 the sudden and unannounced arrival of a large contingent of UK servicemen in Sri Lanka for a few days might well have attracted the unwelcome attention of the Tamil Tigers, (Colombo branch)!

[pickpickard]

According to Southwest, Easyjet, et al, the only way they generate revenue is flying someone somewhere, not waiting on the ground for someone to unload/load/service/clear up administrivia. While it may be an additional cost(paychecks), a good dispatcher/ramp team is essential to a revenue-generating, profitability-seeking business enterprise. Revenue, profitability, profits. Find these words in GASOs or QRs? Think about that the next time time you are waiting in ar$efcuk for no apparent reason or stuck on actuals in the Mandaly Bay in Vegas. Delta Air Lines requires their front-enders to make a pax announcement every 15 minutes they are delayed with a description/update. They have realized that happy and informed folks are more willing to part with their hard-earned dosh the next time they have travel plans. Find out what profit or revenue targets the RAF/MoD has set and you'll understand why your delay/lack of service receives the attention it does.

sf mov - Bobby Flash and Scouser were the best chaps to work with at their respective bases, but then they weren't too bothered by the rest of the RAF - muppets or aircrew.

[adrian mole]

Reichmann

Have just read your burblings of the 24th Sep - you need help! I have spoken to some of your enemy (movers) and they say that their SNCOs are having an annual Top Table at a base 'somewhere in Wiltshire' on Nov 29th and wonder if you'd be the guest speaker? You will not be paid but they promise a whip round to go towards some phsyciatric help.... I wish I was perfect.

[Reichman]

Dear Mr Mole

What took you so long to reply to my 24th Sep "burblings"? Did the Movers lose your PC? Still nice to get a bite though.

On the subject of the Top Table on 29th Nov: I would love to attend; however, I'm on detachment :( . Don't despair though, I will be in a hotel, on rates and there aren't any bag smashers... er ... movers involved at all :D .

Breakfast in Brize, lunch in Washington, bags in Akrotiri.

Luv

Reichman