View Full Version : Swis to get rid of 32 pilots?

I want to be free
21st Sep 2002, 16:21
I have recently heard that Swiss is getting rid of 32 pilots. Rumor has it that the company wants to release all of its foreign pilots.

Is there any truth to this rumor?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

21st Sep 2002, 21:22
Its not a rumour. As far as I know, they're getting rid of all of the non-EU passport holders. That amounts to about 32 pilots. With the latest bilateral agreements signed with the EU, they are forced to keep the EU citizens.

23rd Sep 2002, 04:44
Foreign pilots, working for Swiss and holding B Permits, (the Swiss residency permit) are to be given the boot. This, as a direct result of the typical xenophobic, knee-jerk-reaction, we have come to expect from the Swiss as a nation, whom somehow have always failed to fit into the European concept! Perhaps it is time, that Europe as a Union, forced them to decide: either in, or out? I mean after all, one can barely get airborne from Switzerland without crossing the border.

Robert Vesco
23rd Sep 2002, 14:10
Switzerland is not the only protected employment market in the world.

That´s correct Studi, however, the tactics and methods seen in Switzerland today are usually only seen in 3rd world totalitairian banana republics. :(

23rd Sep 2002, 21:34
i think the uk has been the only soft target and still is. how many foreign pilots in Alitalia, Air France (ha ha), lufty etc, it seems if you dont get into your own airline come to BA or Virgin, loads of europeans etc, which i think is ok as long as brits can go to the above national carriers which does not happen full stop. bit like immigration laws etc.

Robert Vesco
23rd Sep 2002, 22:55
Well, I think that once you meet the requirements and get into an airline like BA, AF, LH, KL or any other European airline, you get a permanent contract an an unlimited work permit. Please note that I am NOT talking about contract pilots here !

So there you are, new in a country hoping to integrate into society and willing to start a new life, perhaps financing a house or a car, etcetera. All those things require a long term planning and a stable job/income.

Do you think any of those airlines mentioned above will kick you out (just because you´re a foreigner) when the economy goes south ? Think again ! Most civilized countries Western have laws that are against discrimination and it will be extremely hard, if not impossible to kick out foreign pilots with a permanent contract.

Remember, geographicaly speaking Switzerland is in Western Europe. Practicaly speaking it´s more like Mugabe´s Zimbabwe.

SWISS, "welcome to civilized aviation." :rolleyes:

24th Sep 2002, 06:12
126.9 et-al, a B Permit is not the Swiss residency permit, it is not a green card, all it does is to allow the holder to stay in Switzerland for one year, one year only. Should the holder during that one year want to work he also needs to obtain a work permit. After one year the holder may extend another year if he so wishes. All that, the system I mean, seems to be concurrent with just about every other European country.
Regardless from where to where, you just have to go through the paperwork, like it or not. Within Europe, this is a pure formality thing, if however you’re coming from a non-member state (CH is by all means) then it may become a bit more difficult to obtain those permits.

Haven’t we been through this before????

24th Sep 2002, 17:25
B-permit and all, when you are issued with a permanent contract to WORK and GIVE production to a company who lured you into their believe of a permanent future....when you then are kicked out, in ONE year`s time, mister, you ask other questions....!!!???
But the Swiss government and cantons will support refugees, supply them with a monthly ADDEQUATE amount of money, at the cost of your Swiss tax....
So mr Studi, think clearly when you open your BIG mouth!!!!

24th Sep 2002, 17:34
For the benefit of Mr N380Somethingortheother; just looked at my old B-Permit: it says clearly Aufenthaltserlaubnis. Go check out your dictionary; an apology won't be necessary! :p

24th Sep 2002, 21:45
Yes 32 or 33 foreign (non EU/EFTA) B Permit Holders will have to leave end of July 2003. These foreign captains came in during the expansion period 1999 to 2000 and commenced on a 2 year limited contract. Others who came in after eof 2000 are OK for the time being. All the “33” signed over to the unlimited or permanent contract start of 2001 which was the only contract available with the then new Collective Labour Agreement. It is now this change of contractual status which does not reflect the original B Permit application (to work and live) with the Swiss government, which has conveniently allowed this pending deportation to occur.

Post Sep 11 and SR collapse, and stated opposition to foreign pilots in LX by ex-SR pilots association Aeropers, LX (now SWISS) management and Swiss government agreed to deport these so-called “limited B Permit” holders. Some TRE and TRI may be able to stay another 2 years depending on replacements being found. The case of the “33” was and is supported by the ex-LX pilot association CCP (now SPA), but they were dumped by SWISS management and Aeropers.

Current options:

1. SWISS, SPA and the “33” negotiate an exit package which may include compensation, type-rating, removal costs, job placement assistance etc. recognizing LX and SWISS responsibility.

2. The “33” who are based at Basel (Euro Airport) successfully apply to live (but not work) in France or Germany and continue to work in Switzerland at Basel. As they are non EU/EFTA it will be interesting to see if this will be allowed as recent Bilateral agreements don’t seem to cover this area.

3. Marry a Swiss or EU National!

With another 9 months to go, these “33” may not be the only SWISS pilots (Swiss, EU or foreign) to go or be released, especially in the event of any re-dimensioning or right-sizing of the SWISS fleet and operations. However, the treatment these “33” have received is pure racism and ethnic cleansing dressed up as an economic and national argument to allow the re-employment of Swiss ex-SR co-pilots. The simple fact is, as has been stated previously, if LX or SWISS had wanted to keep these “33” then their B Permits would have been renewed normally and routinely like the 40 or so other B Permit holders.


“Studi” has mentioned “qualification as an example” as a way to reduce pilots at SWISS. The “Swiss checking pilot files” thread has been closed on this forum. The new qualification process with its screening of ex LX pilots by external consultants who also just happen to be ex SR pilots occurred without any consultation with the pilots association, the pilot body or the individual pilots. Given the previous safety records of both SR and LX, it’s akin to the blind leading the blind or maybe the pot calling the kettle black. Very serious data protection, privacy and confidentiality issues and potential abuses have been raised. SWISS behaviour in this situation is probably unprecedented in any modern, civilised international airline. This screening process also conflicts with, and is detrimental to, the newly announced SWISS Safety Management System and Safety Culture. As far as I’m aware, the SPA is not arguing against the end result of qualification and the welcomed improvements to qualification, standards, training and safety. The objection is against the process and method and particularly the way in which it was not communicated. It is disappointing that Aeropers, Swissalpa, ECA and IFALPA have all been silent on this issue.

“Welcome to civilised aviation”

25th Sep 2002, 05:56
That's got to be the most accurate interperetation I've heard on the subject yet. Well written pecs!

I personally am a foreign national, employed in a European country, holding a JAR-FCL and am a member of my local ALPA branch: I dread to think that this could ever happen to me! Somehow I believe that inside of the EU, the mechanism is in place to protect me from this type of ethnic cleansing! :mad:

The deeper tragedy is that a large percentage of those affected have families with young children, and the SWISS tyrannical bureaucrats couldn't care less! :mad:

25th Sep 2002, 05:59

Check out your dictionary and look up the difference between Aufenthaltserlaubnis (as it said on your permit) and Aufenthaltsbewilligung as it would say on a permit which explicitly states that it is your right to be and work in CH.
Anybody issued a B-Permit is being made aware and so instructed to renew the permit every year. Period. Unless there had been a deal between SR, LX and the Swiss government I’m not aware of.
So what’s the surprise? We all knew that the government may terminate any permission by not extending it; applies to any country that lets foreigners in on a time limited basis.

Cup B
25th Sep 2002, 07:24
Absolutely correct:

You have to renew your B-permit whereas a C-permit allows you to stay and work unrestrictively. (I should know, I lived for almost 20 years between the mountains)

25th Sep 2002, 08:40
You've got the bull by the wrong end mate. Before you came in and started shooting at me, I stated that a B-Permit was "the Swiss residence permit." Go back and check on that. Stop grabbing at straws and telling me what you would like the permit to say. I know what it actually says. Aside from actually having held a Swiss B-Permit, I presently also hold an "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" for Germany, where I am a permenent resident. I know my residency status because I have just come up for Nationality, and one of the requirements is that one be a "permanent resident!"

A few facts here:
a B-Permit is a Swiss Residence Permit!
a C-Permit is a Swiss Permanent Residence permit!
the difference between a C & B permit is the "permanency" isue, and not the residency issue.
Aufenthaltserlaubnis = Residence Permit!

Enough said.

The point in discussion here has to do with the injustice done to a few people at SWISS. I point out that 18% of the Swiss population live and work abroad. They however feel it pertinent to expel 32 pilots in order to reserve those jobs for locals. Regardless of all else, and being accutely familiar with this issue; I find this despicable.

25th Sep 2002, 11:42
Oh boy,
Seems to me, you have one serious weed up your arse. I don’t know where you’re from buddy, but a foreigner is a foreigner because he is from a foreign country. So what lets you think that you have any right on demanding to remain in any country you are guest in???? Why should any country favour you over its own folks?

The point in discussion here has to do with the injustice done to a few people at SWISS.

Injustice? See point above!

I presently also hold an "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" for Germany, where I am a permenent resident. I know my residency status because I have just come up for Nationality

…and I thought we were talking about SWISS.

Und im Übrigen schiesse ich auf niemanden, sondern erlaube mir darauf hinzuweisen dass eine B-Erlaubnis für ein Jahr Gültigkeit hat.

25th Sep 2002, 12:20

Yeap 32 pilots will be gone by mid-2003. They won't be the last to be kicked out soon. In fact due to the nice propositions in the new CLA, it looks like that some swiss pilots will leave before the end of the year. Well before any foreigner actually!:eek: And here we're talking about 300-400 and I'll probably be in!
So you see what happen when new pilots(SWR) join an existing company(CRX) and by-passing the seniority list. In my case the whole ex-SWR pilots are now in front of me:eek: :eek: . Yes, even the youngest ex-SWR F/O is now position #1205 of a total of 1840 pilots:mad:
This means if the long haul segment needs to be reduced, I will have to give my seat of a so-called short-haul jet to one of those arrogant guy.
BTW, according the first quarter report the short-haul is doing quite good:D... Unfortunately we can't say the same for the long-haul segment:( .

But the good point is, it looks like we're keeping our old contract as 79,6% of the ex-CRX are in favor to reject the "offer" from the management. So we keep our seniority list and they(ex-SWR) keep their! And we'll see when the company cut jobs how they will handle that.
Of course if they need to reduce the short-haul we'll have to go, but if the problem is in the long-haul, they will have to go first, thus saving my ass and most probably the one of my colleagues who have even worst seniority than mine! In that way the company will save some bucks in the re-training process which will happen if they go by seniority only...
One more question is what will happen if one ex-SWR oh, sorry, one of the long-haul pilot has to fly then on a small regional airplane about his salary? He won't, for sure, keep his old one. That's why I seriously doubt that it will work that way...

If you look at any company not based on seniority, if you have to reduce the Human ressources dept, you don't cut jobs in the marketing dept, do you :rolleyes: ???

So I have to go flying while I can...

See ya