Caught the boss at it- What to do?

[CH6]

I'm a fairly new-to-the game instructor who needs some advice- the details below will explain why I cannot be too specific about the circumstances.

Purely by chance picked up the wrong tech log to sign for a machine and noticed that the last flight which I had seen being made- a social jolly for the company owner and some mates had not been recorded.

Checking the machines flight time recorders it was fairly obvious that they had been disabled for the flight thereby saving the boss a whole heap of money. That machine is leased from another owner and most of the parts are not "on condition" items so it's far more than just a financial fiddle.

In the grand scheme of things the odd extra hour in the life of a component might not seem much but it's got me thinking.

I could do with a few hints on how to handle this - any thoughts?

Is this sort of thing common? Can't be the first time it's happened -what did you do?

I assume you want to remain anonymous and, for that reason, have removed two words which were likely to identify the school.
Heliport

[Grainger]

"... the odd extra hour ..."

Problem is, CH - is it just the odd extra hour or an accumulated extra 10% or 20% hours? Very unlikely IMHO that you happened to catch the one isolated incident.

Do you want to be the one flying the machine when some over-lifed component gives up the ghost ?

[misterbonkers]

Well, its rather a tricky one, I think u'd best suggest that maybe the Datcon is faulty and the engineer should have a look.

Or suggest that you think 'someone' is ripping off the company because the fuel levels are not consistent with the hours flown.

Machines are lifed for a reason!

[IHL]

CH6: First thing you should do is determine if the Boss is actually doing something illegal and unethical.
- Flight time recorders are not an airworthy item and therefore not required ; the company could be recording time by the old clock method.
- Maybe the boss honestly forgot to make an entry.

You could try pointing out ( in your best diplomatic form) to the boss that he forgot to put in an entry and see where that leads.

If the times are not entered then you are probably flying an aircraft that is not airworthy according to the law and you could possibly be held accountable if you knowingly continued to fly the aircraft.

No easy answer.

[SASless]

Being as how the young man is new....and rightly confronted with a valid concern.....my advice is to use guerrilla warfare. For one occurrrence....my counsel would be to zip thine lip....if you find over time that it is becoming a real problem.....go the backdoor route and note the discreapancies as suggested by a previous post. Confronting the Boss and even rightly suggesting he is diddling the pooch isn't a way to enhance one's career. Play the innocent until forced to form squares....then...fix bayonets...load double charges....aim squarely for the heart! Also...please to rememberl your Boss Wallah just might be a reader of PPRune.....this sure isn't the place to ask such questions....unless you like travelling to strange places and meeting new and different people. Helicopter management types are not the most forgiving nor enlightened of the species.

[BlenderPilot]

will be the boss and will want to do this everyonce in a while.

To able to take a helicopter, fly around with friends and family, show them what is like every now and then is one of the great things about being a helicopter pilot, don't spoil it. If done very sporadically or in different helicopters, I really don't see much harm if its only a small time fraction.

There's not a single member of my close family or friends who hasn't flown w/me, and to all it has been something really memorable.

[3top]

Hi again,

BLender is right, partly..., it is nice to take a ride for fun sometimes, however if you are the boss and own the choppers, do you really NEED to unhook the hobbs or is it just greed?

THIS IS NOT TO SUGGEST, that just poor pilot-employes should do that!!!!

As mentioned, it is not legal, so if you accept (what I would do, if you want to keep your job....:D) the fact, do it quiet, make your "notes" in your memorybank and decide how much you will accept before "enough is enough". Then simple say, that you will not fly the helicopter any more, because matter of fact it is out of time.
Your boss will not fire you, as he would have to count on some legal problems if you talk. If other pilots in the company (find out veeeeeery carefully....) agree, your boss will stop this practise, as he will have to fly everything himself from there on.......if he is not in the office, most likely business will suffer........................but that´s all longterm.

Be sure, non of the helicopter-companies built any machine with exact time frames, they will always give TBO´s with the worst possible operation in mind. Depending how YOUR operation runs, I guess (!!!!AND THIS IS IT: MY UNEDUCATED GUESS!!!!!!!) most helicopters should have a safety margine on their various times of at least 30% - PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS NOT SO - ANYONE IN THE INDUSTRY? SOMEONE WHO KNOW´S BETTER!!!

PLEASE!! - NO ANSWER TO THIS, SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS AN "AGREED" TO MY OPINION!!!!

So, a little extra flying shouldn´t be an automatic death warrant (on the technical part - ....it is still illegal).

Personally I don´t agree with this practise, but I am afraid it is rather widespread practise - though I have no proof of this, either.

So, CH6, I say, don´t get caught doing it yourself, note the occasions and times if others do it, get the total summed up and decide when "enough is enough".


:D :D :D
3top



.......Then it could still be: the boss forgot, the hobbs connection got loose, the hobbs switch got stuck (if it is on the collective....), they take the time by "wrist worn timepiece....",............don´t yell before you know, what you think you know!!!
;)

to CH6:

Furthermore, I suggest that you kill "CH6" as soon as you are done with this thread. Get a different pprune-id.

I am not afraid that people find out about me, as I have a rather lose mouth anyway, and I say pretty much what I think about a certain "thread", and I stand up to it anyway (as on ocasion people do not on this forum.......anonymity is still a great thing to hide behind - you can sling mud a whole lot easier!!....no reference to you,CH6 - I believe THIS is a very serious issue and you are to be commended to bring it up! But those who surf "Rotorheads" regularly know what I mean....). However, you never know if someone identifies you.............

If you have more "sensitive" issues, change the name for each...and keep ´em coming!!

:D :D :D
3top

[CH6]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone- a variety of strategies to consider.

Sure, I can understand that the machine won't fall from the sky the instant it flies past the due inspection. As others point out, however, it's unlikely to be a one off.

The other, more worrying, aspect is the effect on the whole flying operation. Up to now I've always thought that I'd be honest and report a hot start or heavy landing. Now I might think twice.

I wouldn't be surprised if others had also noted the occasional "anomaly". Given this, will the engineers let someone know that they dropped a component or will they just hide it beneath a panel? Will my colleagues 'fess up to their overtorques?

I'll continue to ponder- and don't worry, CH6, is just a nom-de-keyboard for this post (and thanks moderator but those words you removed were included to throw the scent!)

Keep the thoughts coming

[Jed A1]

It’s wrong. There’s no two ways about it.

It’s fraud, it’s theft, it’s endangering lives, the list goes on.

I own and lease helicopters and although it is very tempting I will never do it. I have my integrity and I have to sleep at night.

What happens if the tail rotor gearbox is overtly getting towards the end of it’s life and it quits on a low time pilot, he stuffs it in and ends up hurting somebody. Is it now the time to blow the whistle and say, “well I knew he was at it!”

10%, 20% extra hours on a machine, no it’s not acceptable. To anyone, the pilot, passengers, students flying it, the present owner or the future owner. Aside from it being illegal.

Granted there may be a safety margin in component times but we don’t know what that is for. Harsh environments or demanding operations may reduce these safety margins dramatically. Manufacturers will never say, “oh sure go and fly an extra 200 hours, no harm will be done”

My suggestion to the owner is, that if he is that strapped for cash, go and break in to the helicopter owners house and steal a few hundred quid or dollars. At least he won’t be endangering peoples’ lives.

The negative effect on the whole operation (as mentioned above is) is one of the worst by products, “if the boss is at it, then I can do it too”. As professionals we should be striving to eradicate this nonsense from our business. We can and should make good honest livings without being thieves and liars.

Sure you have your job to think about but you also have your and others safety to think about. That is far more important in my opinion. If you can’t sort this situation out diplomatically as illustrated above, you have to think, do you want to fly in an operation like this. Do you want to be associated with people like this. If it ever gets public, your reputation (by association) in the industry could be tarnished too. I know several people who will not be hired in decent jobs because they were “suspected” of going along with scams like this.

I can’t for the life of me understand why people see the benefit in doing this. The risks far out weight the rewards.

[Randy_g]

You give someone a 10 minute ride, and don't log it. Yes it's technically illegal, but what if that time still gets recorded ??

There are ways to fly for "free", but still log it. If you are using the old watch system, simply round up on the next couple of flights. Usually it means a minute or so to round it up to the next decimal. There are times when I've taken the customer heli-fishing (who here in Canada hasn't), and told him it was no charge. I picked a spot fairly close to the camp or town and kept a record of the starts, flights, and flight time. Over the next few days I've added a point 1 to each flight until everything in the logbook is square. All amounts are exactly as flown. However if we are talking hours, well then that is a different story.

Oh by the way, the Hobbs meter isn't that accurate. I recently found out (from a company AME) that there is enough voltage remaining in the wiring for the Hobbs meter to continue to run even with the battery turned off. On a recent cross-Canada flight the hobbs (which runs off the collective) was .2 hrs higher than what my watch read recording skids up to down. I use 2 timepieces when I fly, my own personal watch, and a stopwatch. Both timepieces were in agreement as to the time flown to a few seconds. When I shut off the master switch, I could still hear the Hobbs meter ticking over slowly.

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/man_grilling_hamburgers_sm_wht.gif

[3top]

TO Jed A1:

I am with you, it is wrong and definitely a shabby way to safe money on the expense of other peoples safety!

BUT ,if I where CH6, I would do what I posted, EXCEPT YOU are willing to give me a job. I don´t know how you got into the business, but for regular folk it is not a walk in the park, but still has a lot to do with luck (to find a place to start......).

As mentioned in my post, my personal opinions do not make this practise right, and I am against it.

Randy-g:
The way you go about has nothing to do with "Hobbs-fraude". As you said, at the end of the helos life the times match up.
Your hobbs may have a bad connection, ours work fine, they have V-range but do not run faster or slower with changing voltage, also the switch activating the hobbs might get stuck, ...

I guess on some cases it is fair practise. We are getting engaged in work sometimes where you have to stay overnight and/or have to brake out ground support. Some clients pay this seperate, others can not account for this special expenses, so they even tell us - just put on an hour more......
But that is not the point, - time on the machine that is not accounted for is!

CH-6: ALWAYS report ANY misshape you have, even if no one else does, if the company decides not to do anything about it is one thing, but it is off your back - you reported it. If you get fired for reporting a mishape, well, your next employer will appreciate your honesty. Normaly the worst that happens is a chew out by the boss if you could have avoided it.
If I ever should get in a position where I have to decide, I would fire a pilot who I find out hid a misshape!!!
I know what I am talking about - I got hit by covered up overlimits - blown engine on approach. Then I should have imagined that something will come sometime, as I flew with the owner of the Ranger once and he ignored redlines! I was aboard as a safetypilot so we just got to the redlines not past. But I have an idea how he "worked" without me.

With mechanics it is the same, some have the etics to ´fess up if the destroy something, others put people in danger and cover up.
You will have to live with that, as it is impossible to hunt everyone down. Although if you can help eliminating the bad apples, do it! Doesn´t always have to be head on!!


:) 3top

[Randy_g]

Your hobbs may have a bad connection, ours work fine, they have V-range but do not run faster or slower with changing voltage, also the switch activating the hobbs might get stuck, ...

3top just to clarfy, I wasn't referring to the hobbs running faster or slower due to voltage fluctuations. What I found out was that since the hobbs requires so little voltage to operate, it can continue to run with the residual voltage remaining in the wiring after the master battery switch is turned off. Since I was told this, I checked on a couple of our a/c and it seems to be true. I'm not talking a lot here, but in 20 hrs there was .2 difference. By the way, the higher time from the hobbs was what was entered in the logbook.

CH-6 I agree with 3top, you must report any over-temp, over-torque, or exceedance of any kind. Even if it is within the transient limits, you should still tell the AME. The transients are there for when we make a small error and need that little extra for landing. Transients are not regular working limits !!

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/man_grilling_hamburgers_sm_wht.gif

[3top]

Hey Randy-g:

I will check on that rest voltage on our hobbs meters.......
.2 in 20hrs is quite a lot over the life time of the machine - 1% of ours makes 22 hrs or about 9500.-$US !!

3top

:)

[Albatros6]

Hi everyone out there,

overtiming is one thing, overstressing the other. When some years ago two Bell Choppers separated the main rotor mast from the rest of the machine, following conclusion was made: as Bell intended the whole airframe to get once in half an hour stressed with full t/o power, sling operation counted 5 to 6 times (even within authorized load) for that, ageing the helicopter a little bit faster...

So much for the "worst load considered..."

g'day

[Randy_g]

3top, yeah it can have quite the impact on the old bottom line. Our hobbs are in our Bell mediums, so you can imagine the cost differences involved there. Ours are run off the 24V system, so I would think that the difference will be less if run off a 12V system like in the Robinson machinery. The amount of wiring will be significantly less as well, so there will be less wire to hold the voltage.


Albatros6 not quite sure what your post means. as Bell intended the whole airframe to get once in half an hour stressed with full t/o power, sling operation counted 5 to 6 times (even within authorized load) for that, ageing the helicopter a little bit faster...

Are you saying that whoever investigated that accident figures that a Bell helicopter was not meant for repetitive lifts to max gross weight ?? There are significant numbers of helicopters all over this world that perform operations that put the a/c at max gross weight constantly, and those a/c don't have mast separations. I am not talking just internal, one time only loads. I am speaking of repetitive external loads (as many as 30-80+ per hour).

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/man_grilling_hamburgers_sm_wht.gif

[capt waffoo]

It's wrong, it's illegal and it's dangerous.

Call CHIRP. That way the problem gets addressed by someone else and you're not associated with the ensuing stink.

Failing that, get another job, which is wery simple to say but harder to do.

Ultimately, do you ant to work for someone who is so dishonestly unprofessional? Will you trust him to report a heavy landing or an exceedence of limitations if this is his attitude? Me, I wouldn't want to fly anything involved with such a crook, my neck's too valuable for that.

CHIRP the bastard and get a proper job.

[BlenderPilot]

So there you go, here we have a perfect example of how pilots
minds work completely different ways between each other.

The ones that say ¨don´t do it¨are usually the ones who are not in a position to do this things and they are just pissed they can´t so they say neither should you.

I say if you must do this, simply make up the time on future flights and thats it, in the real world it is done often.

[S76Heavy]

Blenderpilot, your version of "the real world" has nothing to do with mine. So don't pretend like you know that world.

In our company we don't exeed limits and keep quiet. Not only because exceedences are monitored, but also because we have a sense of responsibility to our fellow pilots.
If you decide to do things your way, fine. Let the rest of us do our jobs according to the rules.

[3top]

Hi S76,

maybe you are not (luckily...) in a position where you have to deal with such issues - Congratulations!!
Maybe you never had to fly or start out with a cheap outfit - Congratulations!!

Unfortunately in the "Real World" we have all kinds of operations and if you never had to deal with one, that had lower standards then the one you work for (what is it anyway? If it is like you say it would be an honor to be mentioned here...), lucky you, because I am afraid the majority is not at that level (.....though they should be, no question....)!
What BlenderP. mentioned sounds a lot like companies I know and worked for before........ I hear the same from other pilots in other companies too. Unfortunately not everyone has the fortune to be engaged by a clean outfit!!

You are right: Don´t risk your neck if you do not have to - but some of us will have to if we ever want to get somewhere near what you do!! If we hit it lucky!

Personal question: Where did you get your flight training? Military or private?

3top

[JAFCon]

Totally agree with Capt Waffoo, Chirp the Bastard, its illegal and it might cost someones life Report it and STOP IT NOW!!!!! because if it does cost someone's life can you live with yourself?

[3top]

To the "immediate CHIRP" - Gang:

HOw did you get your jobs in those "clean" companies?

Ex-military with a million+ training received, flying big iron immediately after leaving service?

Or did you make it up the ladder the hard way:

Paying yourself for the licence - being happy to get your first job at all, trying to make a living and still spend money on progressing to maybe the IFR, trying to get a job where you can collect some requirements for the big iron jobs.......


I do not look down on the military-start in any way, by all means lucky sons to have been able to make in there - but then, do not look down on the guys who had to make it the "other" way,either!

That´s why I am asking you which way you got to your "clean" jobs - I am pretty confident to know the result already, as most big iron drivers have been flying previously in the Army, getting at least a 1000 hrs before discharge, most of it in medium size. When they leave, they just match requirements perfect - for experience and insurence.
Companies with medium-heavy equipment mostly are corporate owned and there is no boss to mess with the times.

How many small helo companies are there compared to the above mentioned?

Where do most pilots fly?

Lucky elite, that you don´t have to bother with crocked bosses!

:( 3top

(to set things in perspective - at my present job things run clean, but income sucks......)

[S76Heavy]

3Top, I paid for my own training, then started flying offshore work on the North Sea. Yes, I consider myself lucky to be working in an environment with high safety standards. But safety is also a personal issue. If a pilot observes unsafe practices, he/she has obviously several options. But to observe them and do nothing seems like criminal negligence to me (but I am not a lawyer).

Having said that, I don't encourage anybody to go out and get themselves fired, but they should try and do something constructive to remedy a potentally dangerous practice. The guy asked for advice, several people have given what they believe to be their best advice, and I find blenderpilots remark about "the real world "offensive. So I reacted.

We can agree to differ, that's what this forum is all about. But we don't have to be disrespectful when disagreeing.

[BlenderPilot]

I really don't know what you are talking about I haven't even mentioned the word "exceedances", but in any case sounds to me like you need to relax. (think beer)

I was only talking about making up for time you previously flew and didn't log for whatever reason.

[captk]

To report or not to report. In the end it is up to you.
But brings to mind the hours on R22 blades. They have a habit of failing when their hours are exceeded. But when do they fail? Is it only a few hours or a lot of hours after their life has been exceeded? One thing is for sure, if they fail it is catastrophic. This is but an example, and not a theoretical example, it has happened to helicopters that have overflown their hours by pilots who failed to record the hours properly!!
Even though it is easy for me to say as I am one of the lucky ones working for a reputable company that would sack you for not properly recording hours, I would suggest you move on and find something else. Particularly if after tackling your boss about it you don't get a reasonable explanation! Your life, or the life of one of your mates, might depend on it!!

[S76Heavy]

Blenderpilot,

you're probably right about the beer. But after losing fellow pilots due to mechanical failure (even WITH all the required checks performed) this is a touchy subject for me. The idea of willfuly committing fraud when recording flying time just to save a few pennies (especially when compared to lives risked) is something I feel very strongly about.

Pilots should always log everything on a flight. How else are we ever supposed to be able to trust a machine, if we cannot trust the people that operate and maintain it?

But I don't want to rant on, I think my way of seeing things is clear.

I'll get the beer out later..;)

[3top]

S76,

you must be one of the lucky few ones the NorthSea companies "adopted" right after flightschool - when there was a shortage of pilots over there!!! Envy...!!

I am certainly with everyone on this subject.
BUT it is not always that simple: one thing is what you want, the other what can you get and/or how much time do you have to get their.

If you can afford to look for a better place for a couple of month, go ahead - I for one can not. I have a family to maintain, and at the very moment I can´t afford to lose a single paycheck.......so if all you know is this job and/or all your resources are in it, it is a tough decision to quit. Certainly I woud say (to CH-6), go and change as soon as you find a better (in this case - safer) place.

3top




I would like to join the beer sometime,:D !!

By the way anyone any lead on a solid company, international where a FAA- commercial is okay?
The internet is not a real help there......

[imabell]

residual voltage in the system??? are you kidding??

hobbs or vdo's or the electric kitchen clock have springs in them, yes they do, and the spring clicks the numbers over, the residual kinetic energy is in the spring not in the wiring, that is why they can continue to run for a moment when the power is switched off.

i'll have some of that wiring for my house please.

what you gain at one end you lose on the other, ask an electical engineer.

i am glad that the ame you asked is not licenced or i would get my maintenance done elsewhere.

anyone here want to buy a bridge?? ;) ;)

[Whirlybird]

Interesting thread; only just got around to reading it.

Can everyone afford to do the right thing and accept the consequences? It would be nice to say yes, but not always; sometimes to do so would cause greater harm. That, unfortunately, is the Real World.

But you don't just leave it; you look for another way - like reporting anonymously to CHIRP, as has already been said.

The one thing you shouldn't do is say that others are dishonest, so that makes it OK. They may be, but you can't decide what is right by what others do.

And before anyone says I don't know anything about commercial helicopter flying, this is a universal dilemma, not confined to this industry.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Sorry 3top, it's nothing to do with how we "got jobs with those clean companies", ex mil or "coming up the hard way".

It is a fact that in certain parts of the world helicopters just aren't operated that way. They just aren't. And the vast majority of N European helo pilots have never had to make it the "other" way, indeed the "other way" as you describe it simply does not exist here, as far as I know.

The helo buisiness in Europe is so thoroughly monitored that such shenanigans are simply not possible.

I would hate to think that any colleague of mine was so unprofessional, nay irresponsible, as to not report an exceedance in teh tech log. If he did not it could be my life at stake, just as I would cough up to my exceedance lest I risk his life. Is that hard to understand?

Sorry pal, things up here are almost always done by the book, and profitably. You see we have little choice, even if we wanted it which we don't.

I would not suggest that we in Europe are whiter than white, but the opportunities for the sort of scams you seem to suggest are virtually impossible here, and concequently tales such as yours are likely to be regarded with great suspicion by law-abiding pilots in Europe.


And we all thank Christ for that.

[[email protected]]

3Top, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Military pilots or those who trained with large companies just because they don't pay for their training themselves. Well who would you want in charge of a helicopter flying your wife and kids - someone who had been through the most rigorous and selective training in the world (BritMil and others) under constant scrutiny and the threat of the chop or someone with a big wallet who just had to pass an 1179 or equivalent and pass a few exams (after as many attempts as they can afford).
I am firmly with S76 on this, if you cover this sort of thing up you are selling your soul - I know I couldn't ignore it but then I'm one of those easy-life Military types.

[Vfrpilotpb]

As one of the many SFH types, I can tell you I have, Been there, got the T shirt and the stained underwear to prove my point, this guy sound like the same type who leased me a good ole R22 that had, had a bit of an incident, but he didn't think it was too bad, after all what's in an overspeed of the MR, probably not a lot to some, but when my 16 stone body cannot control the stick when just getting airborne, its sad that people cheat, especially if in doing so, they put others at risk.

Get a new job, somewhere else! :(

[3top]

To Agaricus b. and crab***:

First, I do not have any chip on my shoulder about Military trained pilots, in fact I envy you for your training+education received that way – I did not cut it (glasses), and at that time our army did not train any pilots anyway.

If I had a choice, I would fly my own family myself or I would fly with the pilot first – if I had the choice.

Also I would choose a company that is “clean” – If I have the choice. Matter of fact I did, because of the condition of the aircraft (there it was worse, never mind any hobbs….)
You can say, there is always the choice to say “no”, well giving up a chance, any chance on a first job is not always possible, except in your perfect world……

Talking about “The real world”: You guys are lucky to work and make a good living in a near perfect part of the real world. You had the fortune to be picked by the Military and/or a big company – AGAIN nothing against it; I wish I were there too. BUT a lot of people spend all they have for this dream. There comes a point, where you have to make a living and maybe start to pay back for the loan (again lucky you if could do without…).

If you are at the spot to make a decicion to risk it or just go back and drive trucks for the next couple years just to level your account, the decicion is not that black and white anymore………

(You would not know about this, you where never there…..)

Crab, it seems you have a something about not military or big company trained pilots. If as you mentioned there is no limit to funds and I pass tests or fail them and pass later, what is wrong with that, if the law permits it. If I have unlimited funds I definitely would not engage a less than perfect company either. Maybe in your perfect world (perfect part of the real world - ppotrw, that is….) this is the case……

Just as a note – I am from Austria. Aviation standards are about as tough as anywhere in Europe. However our social system (at the time I was looking into helo training) did never match N-European, so to get hold of the amout of money necessary for training is not that simple. By the way ask some of your fellow N-europeans that do not have a job yet and lets say had or have to fly on tunaboats……..
Again, lucky those that even don´t have the chance to pull off something wrong like disconnecting hobbs - if you don´t have a chance no one else does...........
Standards are pretty high everywhere in the world, it is the enforcement that is the problem.
Where I work enforcement is not perfect. I would say in the bigger part of the world it is not perfect.

If you read up my posts again you will find nowhere any endorsement of the practise in discussion, neither does BlenderP.
A specific case –CH6- asked for advise, I gave him one for this situation. If he could he probably would have denounced his boss and/or changed the company. Maybe he did, maybe he is at the same point as I was, and has to make a decision in accordance to his priorities………..you would not know you have no (luckily…) decision to make, as there are no cases like this where you work (in ppotrw…).

And another one is, that you need proof before you can press charges…..


By the way, CH6, what is the result of this for you?

3top

[BlenderPilot]

the funny thing is that like someone said "in Europe these things don't happen, "too closely monitored, too many rules, everything is done by the book" and even though there are all these things and professional attitudes, the fatal accident rate in the EU is about the same than in some North/Central/South american countries in which flying is done with few rules and lots of common sense.

And this is not even taking into account the much lesser infrastructure protecting pilots from doing stupid things and worse flying conditions in many countries over here?

Why do you suppose this is?

I've posted some helicopter pictures here:
http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/helicopterpictures/PhotoAlbum15.html

[3top]

Hey VFR: In your case you at least can figure out immediately that something is wrong. Hobbs-fraude is pretty much not detectable (except you come across like CH6 did).......unfortunately.


Blender: Nice pics!!!

On one, your caption reads something about a VIP-flight and the pilot wearing a helmet and the pax probably not liking that!

In my area there was an accident some 2 and something years ago: A vulture (gayote) went through the windshield (JetRanger) and killed the pilot on impact. The co-pilot couldn´t hold the machine and they impacted on a hill. There was one more casuality when the helicopter rolled down the hill and against a tree, where one of the pax was killed. Now they require the pilot (the former co-pilot) to wear a helmet, no matter what!! They got him his helmet color coded with the new helo (B 407) - smily-yellow!!

I agree with your opinion about N/C/S-America!! Here the only thing that makes sense is common one!

:) 3top

[BlenderPilot]

Not long ago I was flying around at 05:30 in the morning with a reporter on board, we were bored and we were going from building to building (the ones in the pictures) looking for "intersting stuff" in apartments, it was dark and all of the sudden, booom something definately made a very loud thump, like we had run over a cow! I started looking around in the darkness and when I pointed the cockpit light to the windshield I saw tons of bird guts, feathers, s..., and blood

That day I learned that some big birds like to fly at night.

[3top]

Hey Blender:

S**t!! What helo where you flying with the bird on the window?

And what bird was it - in case they cruise around at night in my place too- :D !

I killed a bunch of birds, but just 2 during flight:

Some curious seabird while at a hover for a filmtake - until then all birds just got out of the way if they could, so I thought "no problem, in a hover you don´t move, they will stay out of it - NADA!"

The little white job was flying around the tips somewhere, then went under the tips and pulled UP in to the rotor!! I never thought the bird would have the power to go up through the downwash!

The other was a Gayote: A bunch of three, I avoided 2, but the third was turning into me on his blind side, got him with both blade tips. I could feel it, and until the landing (about 10 min later) I also felt a slight unbalance - sure enough plenty of tissue glued to one tip!


The rest commited suicide: Shutdown helo on a tunaboat deck - rotor still freewheeling - birds too curious - flying up into the rotor - birds dead and parts all over the place - The end


Now that`s a serious shift on the thread, from hobbs fraud to a piece of chunk-R22 offered for rent to dead birds!!

But that`s the "Real World", isn`t it,:D!!!


3top

[S76Heavy]

Taking it back to its original subject, did anybody here notice the worrying worldwide trend to take aviation professionals as individuals to court in criminal cases after accidents or incidents have happened? There was/is a thread running in the rumours forum I believe.
This relatively new development means that if a pilot knows or should know that his machnie is not maintained according to the book, he is putting himself at risc, not just the risc of having an accident, but also the risc of finding himself in court.

So whatever the circumstances in your neck of the woods, bear this in mind when you decide what to do.

[3top]

S76Heavy:

I kind of like that trend, if it does not get out of hands. This should be applied to all transportation: cars, trucks, busses, etc.

The most severe case was in NZ a year or two ago:

Someone died because a R-22 lost the T/R or T/R blades. They where put on an overhauled machine - they where fake blades.

The man who sold the chopper knew they where fake and was guilty of manslaughter or so. I think he got 15 years.

3top

[S76Heavy]

3top, that sounds like a clear-cut case. No problem there.
But what about CH6 who found out that his A/C probably has significantly more hours on it than recorded, still accepts it for a flight, something snaps and there are injuries and/or fatalities? Apart from the "normal" riscs associated with this thing, he also faces criminal charges nowadays. Which is something to be considered when deciding how to handle this hot potato.

[SASless]

Wait a minute here.....If a guy can pass the 1179 ride and pass the exams.....to the vaunted CAA standards....then what is the difference here? Am I to believe the QFI/TRE/IRE/QHI administering the flying test would allow an unqualifed....unsatisfactory pilot to pass and actually put his reputation and name on the line having so certified the pilot to be capable? Are you saying mere base commercial pressures or something might skew an examiner's decision....or a feeling of pity for the poor guy who is paying out of his pocket? I thought that only happened under the FAA system (as suggested by more than one contributor here) or is the CAA system corrupt as well? I hate to think the Brit Military is the only reliable aviation system in the UK?

Tell me it ain't so Rupert! Tell me this just cannot be....Nigel!

[3top]

S76Heavy:

That is the real problem here. How much does it already have over? Is it still safe (from a technical point of view...) or not. At the end you have to make your own risk assessment and decide.

On my first job it was similar. The machine was okay but a Bell 47 flies on half the parts anyway, the other one was: am I capable of the job - extremely low time - only 5 hours training after more than a year off - about 20 landings on the tunaboat, anchored in calm water (Today I train people about 15 -20 hours to go on a boat, and I get good feedback from those pilots....). I took the chance, because it was the only one around. The decision was hard, because besides my life, also the skippers was at stake, however he knew my situation and agreed to try it. Then out at sea (tuna bussines - anyway) there are different rules (there should not, but there are...): If a helicopter gets lost, it goes down - even if it would be salvageable. Once in saltwater, a rebuild is expensive. Sink it and let the insurance pay. So with some operators the helos are less then perfect. That´s why I don´t fly with that outfit anymore, but thanks to them I made it into making a living, flying helos.



I never said it is an easy decision - and you are all alone with it.

Lucky those who never have to decide...

3top

[[email protected]]

SASless you know as well as I do that an 1179 is nowhere near as demanding as the check rides that operational military pilots have to go through - an 1179 is a basic General Handling test and that is all. The other point to make is time - a mil pilot has a certain time allocated to learn the skills, if he can't hack it in the time available he finds another job. A civilian can keep on throwing money and hours at it until he passes the check because most of what he will want to do with a helo doesn't need much more than basic GH skills anyway. The military pilot has to learn to use the helo as a weapon and operate in all extremes of weather, day or night whilst continuously making tactical decisions and maintaining SA. I know most civilian helo pilots won't agree with what I have said but I think most mil pilots will. This is a generalisation of course and there are excellent civ pilots and not so great mil pilots but on the whole the statement is true.
Taking cover again - Randy G has already taken umbrage on a different thread!!

[3top]

Crab:

Well what do you want? You have already a go for it, and you still want unlimited trials?

That is the liberty a civilian stundent has,......IF he has the dough.
As you stated, most civilian pilots will never have to nor will they ever get a chance to do the military like stuff.

If you operate a civilian company and take on low time pilots for training you also will draw lines - you get it until then or out.

If civilian flying skills are less demanding than military, why should a 1179 (I guess that`s the same as a FAA-checkride....) be as tough as a military check?
Besides if you fail your civilian checkrides often enough (one time is okay, the second it is already a month and problems for your instructor...) you will have lengthy waiting periods to apply again. You still need an instructor to sign off. If you fail, it will reflect very negative on him, as he said the student is okay....

You are comparing two different things - at a level where there is no comparison.

3top

[Thomas coupling]

These sort of shenanegan's do go on, everywhere, one must be living in cloud cuckoo land to think otherwise. But what concerns me is the individual who knowingly turns a blind eye to these situations. Not only do they put themselves at risk (so much for self preservation), but more importantly, they are exposing their friends, colleagues, innocent persons to the same risk. What sort of human being could allow this to continue???
Surely, conscience has a big part to play in all this. Look to yourself when you next purposefully choose to ignore a dodgy situation and ask yourself who are you kidding?

Pathetic - no excuses.

Move on ...sleep at night.

[3top]

Easy talk, if you have a job and/or experience to start somewhere else right away.....

Besides you still have to be able to proof it!

3top

PS: CH6, no more comments? What is your way now? Talked ,changed company or what?

:) 3top

[GLSNightPilot]

I know nothing of the UK, but having undergone a fair number of military and civilian checkrides in the US, I have to say the civilian rides here, at least the Part 135 checkrides I've undergone, are at least as demanding as any military ride I ever had, & in many ways moreso. I've been with my current employer for over 20 years, & I still sweat the checkrides. If we go to the sim & are qualified in only one aircraft, it's a 4-day ordeal. If you have another aircraft, you add a day. Even if you're flying light aircraft VFR only, it's 2 days.

Most of the pilots I know are ex-military, & I'm pretty sure most of them would agree with me. We get a few ex-military pilots who just can't hack it. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they're different, & emphasize different things.

[SASless]

Put on yer Kevlar skivvies Crab! Incoming Freight! 1179's being a general handling test is correct as is the similar ride in the Mob. And just like the Mob, in civvie street, one takes a PIC ride that surpasses the 1179 ride in depth. The Mob has a different name for the various rides as do the civvies.....and each ride requires proper Situational Awareness....and just as in Military flying....each type of mission (if you will?) requires different qualities of airmanship in both civvie and military flying. I can honestly state it is my belief that as a Civvie Streeter, I have been more challenged in my flying than ever in the military with the one exception of being involved in some serious slanging matches with armed, hostile, and rather efficient "other Teams". I can assure you that some of the high altitude...high temperature construction work I have done in Iran surpasses any sling work ever done for the Military.....some night winching trips got pretty sporty as well.....and the real proof of the pudding is that on more than a few occasions we have had "hot shot" recently out of the Mob, pilots cause our insurance rates to skyrocket due to their absolute inability to cope with the situations they were confronted with. With the rare exception of combat flying....where the rules are chucked out the door....the great majority of military flying today is so structured and supervised that pilots rarely fly solo and darn sure never get to learn from that very tough course called "Knocks College" (the school of hard knocks) that permanently imprints instant recognition of bad habits. You scare yourself bad enough and your learning habits increase geometrically for a period of time.

All that being said.....the military is a very good place to start learning.....but it doesn't end with the graduation ceremony at flight school or your release from active service. Military training is very regimented....structured for the "average" performer....and atttempts to mold pilots into very standardized routines. That works for the military however in the outside world, the environment is not standardized, standard, or under control of all the parties involved.....thus cookie cutter pilots fall short of the mark.

[Labarynth Seal]

Yo Guys and Lassies,

Hate to detract from the het up convo going on here, but has this got anythhing to do with the original thread:confused: :confused:

I know it is boring of me to say it, but start a new thread if it is that important (ohhhhh moderator are you there.......????)

It is a great and wonderful subject, but what the **** has it to do with the original thread:confused: (Repeat statement)

LS

[Heliport]

..... what the **** has it to do with the original thread?

Not a lot, but the original question was answered fully and helpfully, and then faded naturally ..... so what the **** does it matter?;)

[SASless]

Good on yer Mate! That's ****ing telling him where the cow ate the cabbage! The least he could do is contribute to the conversation....Heliport does shoot true at times! Got the scars to prove it too!