B-737 NG, too many flaws

[aloneincommand]

What is happening with Boeing? They have a bunch of airplanes flying with an uncertain destiny.
First, the the center tank fuel pumps could become "fuel bombs"; then the spoilers can cause vibration if operated above certain speed; next one, do not fly fast (?) if anti-ice fluids were applied to the stabilizer; lately, elevator tab cycle oscillation; and now, DAMAGE (probable cause) FCM (flight control module) one or both, which can cause -:confused: - lost of airplane control!!!
I wonder, don't they have enough test pilots instead of risking the lifes of commercial pilots and their passengers?
Or is it that Airbus is pushing too hard and there is no time and MONEY for quality tests?
I fly these airplanes and would feel very sad to see them grounded, but, will feel better to know that they go back to the skies with as few deffects as there can be.

[SOPS]

:( Yes, I must agree. This list is starting to become a little long

[A and C]

The problems with the NG737 are nothing that we have not seen with other aircraft , the fuel pump problem is only associated with the -4 pump and most aircraft are not fitted with these pumps so are un- affected ,except if you have any aircraft in the fleet with the -4 pumps fitted then all aircraft must have a minimum of 1000Lb/500kg of fuel in the center tank with the pumps running.

Airlines will bee replacing the-4 pumps WSA.

The no speed brake above 300 KT restriction is because of vibration in the elevator trim tabs aircraft should be fitted with uprated trim tabs at the next major maintenance input.

De-icing fluid getting into places on the aircraft that it should not is a problem almost as old as aviation its self (the viscount was a victim to this as well) and is one that wont go away as it would be imposable to fluid proof the outside of an aircraft so the only way around the problems is to take precautions when de-icing.

I would far prefer to fly an aircraft that is made by a company that is open about problems and Boeing has been as forthcoming as they can be unlike some that I wont name here.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Must agree with A&C here,

The "Mighty" 800 is a fine piece of kit and I personally believe Boeing put there aircraft through the most rigorous of test procedures and it's not unreasonable to put our trust in them. The fullness of time will always sadly reveal flaws in even the best of designs and it's not practical to expect a manufacturer to "catch all" unless you want them to delay the release of ALL aircraft until they have been flown around the world through all possible conditions for ten years or so before they sell the first one!

Gimme a Boeing any day thanx.

[OVERTALK]

A&C says:
Airlines will be replacing the-4 pumps WSA.

however

http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/aircraft/ad/ADfiles/Over/b737/b737-190.pdf

The attachment is an amendment to the original emergency AD. It permits any faulty pumps to be left in situ (presumably as long as the new flight limitations are adhered to).

Maybe I’m missing something, but this would seem to me to be more than just a bit cavalier.

What’s going to happen if the aircrew accidentally overlook switching a pump off before the fuel level drops below the safe level?????? Auto-ignition??

[Wing Commander Fowler]

well OVERTALK - what happened before the AD came out in the first place.....? Very rarely a fault occurred which is for sure undesireable. At least by imposing the AD and the SOP of switching the pumps off before the tank runs dry you are reducing the risk even though the crew may occcasionally forget to switch off the pumps in time.......

Cavalier? Quite a reliable car in my experience. Still not a Boeing though!

[Nopax,thanx]

Overheard on the flight deck of the world's safest aircraft.....

"- #12 just failed..."

"Which side?"

There's no such thing as perfectly safe, and never will be. Perfection will only ever be a goal; if you could achieve it, it wouldn't be worth striving towards. Every design ever has had its' flaws; some serious, some just annoying. The 727 raised some mighty concerns in its' early days, and over the mists of time and millions of successful flights, became one of the world's finest. The latest AD is only addressing a high failure rate, so we should applaud those who are taking a proactive stance - there was a time when only an accident would bring about some action.

And before you ask; no, we don't even have any 737's!!

[Longtimer]

http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

FAA Directives re the A320.

98-20-31 10/30/98 Pressurized Floor Pick-Up Angles At Rear Spar
98-20-30 10/30/98 Upper Frame Flanges
98-20-29 10/30/98 Tail Strikes - AFM Changes
98-20-04 10/26/98 Monogram Toilet Rinse Valves
98-19-23 10/22/98 DFDR Vibration Mounting Rack
98-19-18 10/21/98 Lavatory Smoke Detection System
98-18-26 10/13/98 Front Spar Vertical Stringers on the Wings
98-18-24 10/20/98 Inner Flange Door Cracking Inspection
98-18-16 10/08/98 Fuselage
98-16-12 09/08/98 Mesh Strainers Of Fuel Pumps
98-15-06 08/20/98 Plain Bushings in Doors Inspection
98-13-14 07/30/98 Fatigue Cracking Inspection
98-12-33 07/20/98 Fatigue Cracking Inspection
98-09-18 06/03/98 ELAC In Aft Electronics Rack 80VU
98-06-20 04/24/98 Fastener Bolt Holes
98-04-11 03/24/98 Wiring At Spoiler Elevator Computer Connectors

98-01-17 02/17/98 Capacitor In Landing Gear Circuitry
98-01-12 02/17/98 Upper Safety Locking Pin On Passenger Door
97-25-17 01/20/98 Collins Radio Altimeter Antenna
97-23-13 12/17/97 Inspect Release Cable At Left & Right Hand Doors
97-22-13 09/22/94 AFM Change
97-09-04 05/29/97 Fire Shutoff Valve (FSOV)
97-07-14 05/12/97 Rib Flange Of Front Spar
97-05-04 04/03/97 Generator Control Unit (GCU)
97-02-04 02/26/97 Inspect Main Landing Gear Brakes
96-25-04 01/27/97 Wing and horizontal stabilizer wire bundles
96-18-12 10/09/96 Electrical Wiring and P-Clip
96-04-06 03/25/96 Replace Relays In Braking/Steering Control Unit system
95-24-08 12/27/95 Thrust Reverser
95-22-11 11/24/95 Left Fuselage Frame 20
95-22-10 11/20/95 Main Landing Gear Pintle Pins
95-13-01 07/24/95 Passenger Seat Track Joint
94-14-17 08/08/94 Slide/Raft Evacuation System
94-12-03 01/10/94 Belly Fairing Structure
94-03-04 03/14/94 Rivet Heads
93-25-13 02/14/94 Forward Pintle Fitting Of The Main Landing Gear
93-17-05 10/07/93 Modify Web Installation
93-16-10 10/13/93 Inspect To Detect Fatigue Cracking
93-15-05 08/18/93 Brakes
93-10-03 07/01/93 Wing Fuel Tanks
93-05-12 05/05/93 Wing Rear Spar
93-02-15 03/11/93 AFM Changes-Limitations Section
93-01-25 02/10/93 Fuel Return Line Leakage
93-01-21 02/10/93 Smoke Detection System
92-27-14 02/08/93 Auxiliary Power Unit
92-14-03 08/18/92 Shut Off Valve Actuator
92-08-09 04/30/92 Air Data Modules
92-02-14 03/02/92 Emergency Escape Slides
91-26-06 01/03/92 Horizontal stabilizer STP1 relay
91-16-02 09/11/91 Shut-Off Valve Actuator
90-23-04 11/19/90 Electrical Pitch Control
90-21-14 11/19/90 Ejection Jack
90-12-10 06/20/90 Fuel Quantity Indicating System
90-11-51 R1 07/16/90 Turbine Rotors
90-02-15 02/20/90 Auxiliary Power Unit

[Desert Dingo]

So what has the A320 got to do with this discussion?

The old Boeing vs Airbus cr@p again?

OK. Your 55 ADs, and I'll raise you an extra 56 B737 ADs :D :D :D

FAA Directives re the B737:

2002-19-51 Upon Receipt Flight Control Modules (FCM)
2001-20-10 11/20/2001 Junction Boxes in Main Wheel Well
2001-11-11 07/16/2001 Seat Track Fittings on Passenger Seats
2001-11-07 07/16/2001 Hydraulic Shutoff Valves
2001-10-14 06/08/2001 Passenger Oxygen System
2001-08-24 05/10/2001 Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) - Limitations Section - Fuel Pump Operation
2000-22-02 R1 11/13/2000 Airplane Flight Manual, Emergency Procedures Section -- Uncommanded Yaw or Roll Condition
2000-15-16 09/12/2000 Oxygen System
2000-10-21 06/12/2000 Flightcrew Seats
2000-05-13 04/19/2001 Main Landing Gear (MLG) Axle
99-22-16 12/07/99 Upper Decompression Panel on Flight Deck Door
99-11-05 COR 06/28/99 Secondary Servo Valve Slide
98-22-10 11/12/98 Forward Service Door
98-18-20 10/21/98 Fuel System Crossfeed Valve Actuator
98-13-12 R1 07/06/98 Rudder System
98-03-10 02/19/98 Seat Locks
97-19-03 08/24/93 Pilot and Co-Pilot Crew Seats
97-18-06 11/12/97 Main Wheel Well
97-05-10 03/19/97 Main Rudder Power Control Unit
97-05-09 04/09/97 Aileron or Elevator Power Control Unit
97-04-01 03/21/97 Aileron Control System
97-03-04 03/10/97 Fuel Cap Assembly
96-10-06 05/24/96 Galley Service Door Lower Gate Hinge
95-23-10 12/13/95 Auxiliary Power Unit Fire Warning
95-15-06 08/23/95 Actuators on Fuel System
95-13-07 07/28/95 Nacelle Strut and Wing Structure
95-06-53 02/01/94 Rudder Actuator Piston
95-02-08 03/16/95 Galley Door
93-07-15 05/02/93 Cargo Compartment
92-25-09 01/12/93 Corrosion Inspection
92-25-04 12/23/92 Test Stop Plungers
92-21-04 11/24/92 Main Deck Cargo Door
92-19-16 11/20/92 Overhead Stowage Bins
92-15-03 08/18/92 Main Landing Gear Brakes
92-07-10 05/04/92 Wire Bundles
92-03-07 03/16/92 Exhaust Flange Inspection
91-21-12 11/12/91 Radio Control Panels
91-16-08 09/06/91 Auxiliary Fuel System
91-08-12 05/17/91 Bonded Doublers Inspection
91-07-14 04/29/91 Magnetic Compass Liner
91-07-04 04/15/91 Window Belt Skin
91-07-01 04/03/91 Electronic Flight Instrument System Symbol Generators
91-05-08 03/25/91 Engine Control Cable System
90-25-12 01/07/91 Crew Oxygen System
90-25-01 12/31/90 Corrosion Control Program
90-21-15 11/16/90 Horizontal Stabilizer
90-20-22 10/23/90 Vapor Barrier Sealing
90-17-20 09/04/90 Flap Track Bolts
90-15-17 08/27/90 Bypass Valves
90-12-11 R1 07/31/90 Escape Slide Release Cable
90-06-04 03/19/90 APU Fire Detection System
90-06-02 04/17/90 Structural Modifications
90-03-18 03/07/90 Takeoff Configuration Warning Systems
89-15-08 08/24/89 Observers Seat
89-14-11 08/07/89 Seat Pan Roller
89-12-02 06/29/89 Lavatory
89-11-06 R1 02/21/90 Fuselage Skin Inspection
89-09-03 05/19/89 Lap Joints
89-07-13 04/28/89 Generator Control Unit Filter
89-04-03 03/10/89 Cockpit Door Blowout Panels
89-02-04 02/08/89 Nose Landing Gear
88-22-11 R1 01/31/90 Fuselage Lap Joints
88-22-09 11/10/88 Takeoff Configuration Warning System
88-19-04 10/03/88 Cabin Pressure Safety Relief Valves
88-14-07 08/11/88 Lavatory Towel & Cup Dispenser
88-11-12 06/27/88 Cargo Door Frames
88-11-04 06/13/88 Wing Spar Upper Chord
88-07-04 05/01/88 Main Landing Gear Brake
87-26-03 02/01/88 Weather Radar Receiver Transmitters
87-08-09 06/01/87 Tire Inflation
87-07-03 04/13/87 Airstair Exit Handle
86-19-03 09/26/86 Fire Extinguisher Discharge Outlets
86-18-04 09/11/86 Self-Locking Nuts
86-12-05 06/30/86 Horizontal Stabilizer Attach Lug
86-12-04 06/30/86 Horizontal Stabilizer Center Section Rear Spar Upper Chord
85-22-02 11/25/85 BBL Rib Upper Chord Insp.
85-19-01 10/12/85 Rosemount AOA Sensors
85-16-05 09/06/85 Fire Prevention - Lavatories
85-03-06 R1 02/03/86 Upper Drag Angles Insp.
85-01-07 02/25/85 BBL 70.85 Rib Upper Chord Inspection
85-01-06 02/25/85 Forward Airstair Adjacent Frames Insp.
84-23-05 12/15/84 Horizontal Stabilizer
84-10-04 06/04/84 APU Feeder Cable
82-01-09 01/18/82 Lower Body Skins Corrosion
81-20-04 R1 11/13/81 Hamilton Standard Pressurization Controllers
80-26-51 12/13/80 Control System Jamming
80-22-12 R2 06/21/83 Leading Edge Devices
80-07-02 04/21/80 Flight Control Systems
80-02-02 R2 11/20/80 Auxiliary Body Fuel Tank Installation
79-23-02 11/15/79 "Carry-All" Interior
79-07-03 05/04/79 Thrust Lever Operation
78-13-07 07/12/78 Trailing Edge Flap
76-26-02 R1 03/02/77 Cargo Doors
76-11-05 R3 07/24/89 Elevator/Horizontal Stabilizer
76-01-03 01/23/76 Passenger Seats Restrained
75-25-02 01/05/76 Escape Hatch
75-20-02 R1 02/09/76 Trailing Edge Flaps Retraction And Leading Edge Flap Extension
75-05-09 03/24/75 Engine Fuel Shutoff And Crossfeed Valve Wire Bundles
75-05-01 R1 04/07/75 Control Cable Pulleys
75-04-08 03/10/75 "B" Hydraulic System Electrical Wiring
74-21-03 R1 11/10/75 Lavatory Waste Containers
74-20-02 Upon Receipt Pitot Static Tubing
74-09-05 Upon Receipt Emergency Overwing Exits
73-09-04 R2 Upon Receipt Entry Door Hinge
70-18-06 09/10/70 Emergency Hatch Handle
70-09-01 04/23/70 Operation Of Battery Switch
70-06-03 03/13/70 Takeoff Warning System/Automatic Speed Brake Retraction System
70-04-03 R1 07/09/70 APU Bleed Air Duct/APU Fire Extinguisher Bottle
69-20-06 10/30/69 Electrical Overloads Of Circuits
69-17-01 Upon Receipt Auxiliary Power Unit
68-25-02 12/10/68 Circuit Card

[aloneincommand]

I never meant to start a Boeing- Airbus quarrel, all I said is that all the B-737 deffects can lead to fatal result one at a time or a combination of some of them together. As somebody mention what if the crew forgets to turn the fuel pump switches off; it happened on the ground to a Thai B-737, somebody left the pumps on and the resutl was a BIG explotion. Or what if during flight in turbulence, make it light, the elevator has cyclic oscillations, how can it be identified in order to enter a report in the logbook and up to what point can this affect the FCM (flight control module) and, therefore, the airplane's maneuvrability.
I may look a little (?) paranoic :p , but if Boeing says it can happen, I believe them.
Probably the answer is not in Boeing itself, but in their suppliers and their quality control. :o

[Ignition Override]

That is a very long list for the 737NG, however Boeing's Airline Division does not receive any government money (US or otherwise) to help it compete with its major (heavily government-sponsored) competitor, not to excuse the longer Boeing list, and so Boeing produces and sells/markets all of its airliners at a huge financial disadvantage-there is no question about it.

Could it be that the FAA ignores some potential problems with Airbus operators in distand lands? We all remember the tragedy of the ATR crash in Roselawn, Indiana. Long before this crash took place, the FAA was well aware that some serious loss-of-control incidents due to inflight icing happened to ATR-42s in Europe.

Therefore, how can we believe that the FAA reacts to each and every report of an Airbus fault, which is somehow reported to the FAA's Washington DC headquarters (reliably transmitted?) about foreign-registered A-320s etc, knowing how the FAA assumed that it understand certification of the ATR's wing characteristics when flying through cold clouds, and never reacted to the European ATR problems until after a plane with passengers onboard rolled over (while being flown in the prescribed manner with operative leading-edge boots working) and plunged into the Indiana cornfield?

Just think of foreign relations: the ever-present political factor has supposedly influenced the DOT as to which foreign airlines, whose operations and maintenance certifications allegedly meet certain ICAO standards, can operate into US airports (while excluding other nations' airlines), especially if our State Department is on good terms with a certain foreign government, as reported several years ago by "Conde Nast Traveler" magazine.

After the Valuejet tragedy, someone with the FAA claimed that a certain FAA (regional) headquarters had "buried deep in a drawer" a file which was strongly critical of Valuejet's operations-and this concerned the old, fairly simple DC-9, not the extremely complex A-320! Read out about the FAA Western Division's actions (and lack of them) during the Continental strike in 1983, under a political atmosphere in which the Republican Party needed all airline managements to crush labor, if necessary, which meant that airline operations WERE to be basically unhindered by the US govt......sermon over now, lunch will be served just outside the sanctuary following Hymn *** ["Es Flog ein kleines Waldvoeglein"] by Ludwig van B (?) (translated by Catherine Winkworth).

[Nopax,thanx]

....and to keep the playing field level, should we even be considering AD's from 1968 when discussing the NG 737's??? Surely the start point would be the entry of the NG into service.

No axe to grind; as I said before, we don't even have 'em!

[HugMonster]

Ignition Override:-

Sorry, but you're almost (but not quite) totally wrong about the Roselawn incident.

Firstly, I'd be grateful if you could detail your authority for your assertion that there were "some serious loss-of-control incidents due to inflight icing happened to ATR-42s in Europe." I am not aware of any.

The aircraft involved in the Roselawn incident was being flown very far indeed from "the prescribed manner".

It was being flown flapless in severe icing with the autopilot engaged.

They were holding for getting on for 45 minutes in those conditions. For at least 25 minutes of that time the Captain was down the back chatting up the cabin crew, leaving a very inexperienced FO up front to handle everything in poor weather conditions. For at least 17 minutes there was one of the cabin crew on the flight deck being chatted up by the Captain.

During those 45 minutes the pitch trim whooler sounded at least five times, indicating to anyone who spared a thought that the automatics were having just a little trouble keeping the aircraft in trim in the conditions.

At no time during those 45 minutes did the crew request higher levels, lower levels, other routings, anything that would take them out of the severe icing they were encountering.

The crew demonstrated some of the worst airmanship possible, a degree of complacency and arrogance that takes the breath away and, sure enough, the earth rose up and smote them.

The FAA/NTSB result on the inquiry was nothing short of a disgrace, exhibiting some of the worst protectionism ever seen between European and American aviation.

[Wino]

There was a loss of control in Italy Hugmonster that was recovered at a much lower alt that was also attributed to icing.

I don't have the report infront of me currently but the exact same scenario happened there, about 2 years earlier...

Furthermore, when you accuse of protectionism, the implication is that there is a domestic similar product that is being protected. Pray tell, what 70 seat turboprop in production was the NTSB protecting?

Cheers
Wino

[PAXboy]

aloneincommandProbably the answer is not in Boeing itself, but in their suppliers and their quality control. Nowadays, every commercial transaction is pared to the bone. If the customer wants the item but is not prepared to pay the price - then something will be done.

I have equal confidence (as a Pax) in Bs and As because I think that both manufacturer's are EQUALLY capable of cutting corners!! Whether it is the company at the top or one of the myriad suppliers, someone, somewhere, will have or will in the future, cut things too fine.

It may be that the recent fuel pump problem is a result of such cutting and the customer has found it out in time. If and I stress IF this is the case, then there will come a time when neither supplier or operator will find it and it will be the job of the accident investigator to find the holes in the Swiss cheese.

My reason for saying this is because this is how the commercial world operates these days. I have seen many projects (on the ground) suffer because folks believe that they can get it cheaper and still win. Most of the time - they can. One day, they won't.

[aloneincommand]

"it will be the job of the accident investigator to find the holes in the swiss cheese "
Oh, PAXboy,
I don't want to take it as coming from someone who is just seated behind a desk and trying to make the pilot's life more miserable. I mean, what else could there be, we have the airplane's deffects, lack of airport security, hijackers and paranoic passengers, companies adjusting the salaries and the benefits of our contracts (if there were any) in a unilateral way.
How can the crewmembers be asked to be totally concentrated in their duties, if, with every day that passes there are more threats to their lifes.
All this facts make me miss the FUN OF FLYING and start experiencingTHE FEAR OF FLYING. :(

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Well, aloneincommand...... I'm sure this posting is JUST what the industry needs right now don't you think?

If you've lost the enjoyment and are yourself starting to feel fear may I respectfully suggest you find an alternative?

[dvt]

Too many flaws????

It's the best d@mn airplane I've ever flown! Until a better plane comes along, they'll have to pry me out of the seat of an NG.

[aloneincommand]

Well,
I was expecting different replies, but, after all the CRM courses and the FLIFHT SAFETY propaganda, we keep the pilot's essence, if it flies, I can take it, it doesn't matter if it is upside down and without flight controls or fuel pumps,etc, etc, no matter what, just give a good hotel to relax and don't, ever, think to assign me to fly in economy and eat that food, I have a reputation, you know.

Perhaps is the enviroment (east Asia) and their way to look at this problems that has got me a little stress.
In the meantime I'll go and get a better insurance, and, at least, leave my family more protected.:o
Cheers.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Hehe... attaboy aloneincommand - you're getting the idea now!


:D