IMC Rating - What's it worth?

[greatorex]

Could I pick your brains please?

As some of you may know my daughter has done her PPL and is thinking of doing an IMC rating. She has plenty of P1 time etc. BUT!!!! She has been told by numerous instructors at her flying school that the rating is basically little more than a 'get yourself out of trouble rating' and an IMC rating holder 'should never seriously think about going IFR in IMC out of choice'.

Now, we know that it is not an IR and that you can't use it outside the UK etc. etc. but I just wondered what the general consensus on this is?

[Keef]

I think this one has been done to death a few times recently, but I'm useless at finding old threads.

There are two opinions
- the "it's only to get you out of trouble" one you've heard, and
- the other one (which I think you will find is CAA policy) that it is a CAA approved rating that allows you to fly IFR in IMC in Class D and lower airspace, and gives you some added VFR and SVFR privileges that a basic PPL doesn't have.

If you learn at a proper school with a decent instructor, and if you keep your Instrument Flying current, it's an excellent rating - not up to IR standards, but much more practical than trying to get a JAA IR.

I use mine extensively to fly in real IMC, with no concerns (talking to ATC etc) and reckon it is a good rating to have.

If you're out of practice and try to fly in IMC, then IMC rating or not, you're in serious danger.

So, with common sense in play, the IMC is well worth while and I'd do it every time.

Ignore the IR pilots with delusions of grandeur (only a small percentage of the total) who will insist that if you haven't gone through the initiation ceremony of the IR writtens, you aren't a real pilot.

[greatorex]

Thanks for that Keef.

Ignore the IR pilots with delusions of grandeur (only a small percentage of the total) who will insist that if you haven't gone through the initiation ceremony of the IR writtens, you aren't a real pilot.

Not guilty of that one :D ;) :D ;)

[LowNSlow]

When I did my IMC my instructor asked me if I was going to use it seriously or was just doing it to improve my skills. When I told him I wanted to use it he wouldn't accept anything less than +/- 50' of assigned altitude etc.

By doing this he boosted my confidence and my flying overall benefitted. When I was in practice I enjoyed IMC flying but my rating has long since lapsed. It was still a very worthwhile thing to have done and would recommend it to anyone thinking of doing it.

[LPL]

It doesn't matter wether you have an IR or an IMC rating, if you dont use it frequently you will be out of practice and a serious danger to yourself and others.

IR rated pilots, PPL or ATPL, tend to fly more frequently,hence they are in better practice. Its not the fact that the the IR is safer.

As regards the theory, most of what you study in the JAR ATPLs is of no practical use in real life, everyday flying. To say you are not a proper pilot until you have studied them is a load of B*****ks

[pa28biggles]

Im going to start my IMC training in a couple of weeks. A good motivation for doing so is that I want to fly in the airlines - even though you don't need an IMC rating for the issue of fATPL.
I'd prefer to fly IFR in my hour building, take an ILS or NDB approach rather than a totally VFR approach. The IR training is very intense, and this IMC flying would be good practise. Another justification, for example, is that if one rain shower is forcast at your airfield that is in class D airspace, and forecast viz is >1800m, you can still go for it and not worry about being caught out....... The justifications go on.... It allows a lot of freedom over the basic PPL, and I intend on using it frequently. I dont think that it can be used just as a backup, because by the time you get caught out you'll be out of practice...:)

[Jolly Tall]

PA28, I see you're from Leeds. Are you going to do your IMC there, and if so who with?

[Send Clowns]

Remember that an IMC is a 15-hour course, an IR is a 55-hour course.

As far as I can see (I never held an IMC as such, but the privileges on my CPL) the IMC rating is very useful to get the flight in knowing you will encounter IMC, and as a back up for unexpected IMC. Until you have experience behind you I would recommend you do not fly a whole trip in IMC. Later on with experience this may be entirely safe, but with little instrument experience you will find it is very tiring and draining, and tends to detach you from reality due to the concentration on the instruments. The latter can be dangerous coming out of cloud at low level having not seen anything but clouds for 3 hours, or if an instrument fails, it being hard to disbelieve when you are fixated. These problems fade with experience, as you increase your mental capacity for these skills.

I agree entirely with those that talk about currency - having had to shoot an ILS recently unexpectedly I was having to work a lot harder than when I was flying them regularily!

[FormationFlyer]

I agree with all the comments above....The instructors who say its 'get out of jail free' 1. should read the ANO, & 2. should get another job.

As send clowns says...become proficient post IMC course before attempting long flights by sole ref....

[pa28biggles]

Jolly Tall,
I don't know if i can mention the company's name here, but they are based on the southside of Leeds/Bradford Airport. There is only one school there! (You probably know that, infact, you probably know which flying school i mean!)
I agree with you comments Send Clowns. I personally dont intend on flying whole flights in IMC for your reasoning - lack of experience. I plan to conduct flights that can be conducted in VMC on instruments, to build confidence, with occasional 'in-cloud' flying.

[andrewc]

If you are flying significant distances within the UK and are
trying even vaguely to rely on flying as a means of transport
then you should get an IMC rating.

Being confident that you can do an ILS approach if the
weather closes in is a major advantage - however it does
require that you keep current in the skill...

Without the currency, neither IR nor IMC are worth a
fig...practise, practise, practise...

-- Andrew

[G-SPOTs Lost]

F.Flyer

It may be worth while you considering that there are some IMC candidates that even after they have succesfully passed an IMC test with a BX examiner really shouldn't be whizzing off around the country by sole ref.

There are some other candidates that take to I/F like they were born wearing foggles.

The upshot is that you use your experience to judge who should launch off and who you reccomend shouldn't.

Just because you may have heard that said doesn't mean that the instructor should " Get another job". There are some IMC holders who cannot file a flight plan - you dont need to be Einstein to realise that these people should not be endeavouring long cross countrys as you quite rightly say.

Im just asking you to reflect about the "get another job" bit I think we are in agreement here.

[dedstikyfingerz]

Deffinatly do it, well worth it and gives you that edge on yer flying ability. yeh it is handy to get you out of trouble, so what! stay with in the rules and privliges and you'll be ok. it lets u go to places and do the things u praps cudn't do before with out the ballache of doing the IR.
If u r going atpl youl find most do the imc anyway for the above reasons. get a copy of rant 200 simulator, it realy helps and keeps you up to speed once you have passed.
:cool: :cool: face has foggles on not sun glasses

[greatorex]

Thanks for all the replies, I shall pass on your comments (and any others that may be posted ;) ) to her - not that she ever listens to anything that Dad says - in her eyes, I should fly 'real planes' more often - come to think of it, she's probably right!! :D ;) :D ;)

[FormationFlyer]

G-Spots Lost

I havent heard it said. Its my own opinion. I think Im entitled to say 'get another job'...Im an instrutment instructor...

I think instructors who think it is 'get out of jail free' should. Perhaps their view is based on snobbery of an IR - an egotistical stance that we could do without in aviation...
Perhaps they dont understand the need of currency...I at least thought that we all agreed that without use the IMC rating is worth jack...(as is IR) as rightly pointed out by andrewc). So if you dont use it your 'get out of jail free' soon becomes a quick way to kill yourself...

It may be a harsh view but if you dont agree with the priviliges of a rating you shouldnt be teaching it - because as an instructor you are instilling values into your students every second you are with them. Therefore you *should* be encouraging to use a rating that just cost them 1600UKP or so. To do anything less would be unethical.

It may be worth while you considering that there are some IMC candidates that even after they have succesfully passed an IMC test with a BX examiner really shouldn't be whizzing off around the country by sole ref.

I think thats more of an enditement on examiners/instructors...if the person isn't safe they shouldnt pass the test...simple. But true those individuals do exist...

However, its the same argument with PPLs..there are some PPLs out there I wouldnt want to meet in the circuit...

I agree that you may recommend to some peeps they dont - but i would suggest that that is because they are not current etc rather than basically unsafe...If I felt someone was unsafe in IMC (yet had the IMC rating) I would be talking to my CFI about that person...with a view to stopping them using club aircraft in IMC conditions...

As for A-B flying...the IMC is intended for this..check the syllabus as published by AOPA...<exercise left to the reader :D >

On another note...I also speak as a pilot who got an IMC rating (and used it) before getting my IR. I flew a 2:30 trip from glouc->newcastle & then back again 2 days later - about 2hrs each way was IMC with an ILS @ newcastle & NDB approach at gloucester - not saying I didnt make any mistakes - I did, not saying I wasnt tired after - I was. Henceforth I heartily recommend using it once you have got it.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

F.Flyer

Yep as I thought we are singing of the same hymn sheet, just in a different key.....

It may be a harsh view but if you dont agree with the priviliges of a rating you shouldnt be teaching it

A little moralistic, if somebody comes to me wishing to be taught a rating that Im FULLY in favour of then Im glad to teach it.

If after or during my course and having passed the test I feel that this particular "student" should refrain from launching off into IMC then Im sorry Im going to say it: to quote you....

Therefore you *should* be encouraging to use a rating that just cost them 1600UKP or so. To do anything less would be unethical

Whats unethical is somebody stuck in the side of a mountain because of an ill timed descent or altimeter setting error. If I was going to get moralistic as Im feeling you are being, I would say that you are advocating 1600 quid over somebodys safety

Im not being moralistic in the next paragraph I just dont have time to think of something more fitting this morning.

So how does somebody get onto my "approved list"

Well how about this:

1. A couple of buddy/buddy flights with another PPL for starters

2. A flight with me in the "IMC club" that we are thinking of starting, to address the issue of currency (its hopefully going to focus the inexperienced IMC'rs mind)

3. A post IMC test flight to another airfield with the approach being given on route to increase the pressure just a little. Not to highlight any shortcomings or to put people of. Just to encourage a self approach breif at a suitable time not over the beacon....! probably folloed by a go around and diversion.

I have for some time felt that the IMC rating should be "activated" by a qualifying IMC cross country as IMC ratings can be a little "local".

Having said all that I do agree with the vast majority of your post so we will leave it at that, once again we are singing of the same hymn sheet

[Julian]

I did the FAA IR rather than the IMC as I thought if I was going to fly IFR I may as well go through the mill, but couldnt really justify £12k for the JAA IR!

The FAA IR ended up costing me about £3k and on successful completion you get to add the IMC to your UK licence anyway, so 2 licences for the price of one and a lot more experience (I ended up doing 60hrs flying for the course as we were also having a bit of a tour combined with the training to make it a bit more fun!).

IFR flight is hard but its also good fun and very rewarding when you get where you were meant to be. Yes you will screw things up in the early days but as has been hammered home on here its practice in the end and staying current.

Its another option worth considering.

Julian.

[drauk]

As someone who is a few hours in to an IMC course and who appreciates the need to stay current once I've got it, I'm wondering what the best way to "stay current" is.

Most (though not all) of my training is under the hood. Most of my recreational flying is done solo. Presumably nobody is suggesting I fly under a hood when solo? So should I seek out poor (i.e. IMC) weather conditions, be sure of getting a RIS (tricky from my home airfield in North London) and do cross-country tips? Or do I have to fork out for an instructor once a month? Opinions?

[Field In Sight]

Don't do most of your flights solo. Ask about at your club or on PPrune for other PPL's to act as your safety pilot.

I am sure you won't have a problem finding somebody.
I try and fly most of the time with another PPL.
Even though the other person can't log any of the time (in JAA land) they will get more experience as they spot you making mistakes.

If it's another IMC'er then the roles can be reversed on the return leg.

FIS.

[FormationFlyer]

G-Spot...

yeah we are on the same sheet. :D

No I dont advocate 1600 quid over safety...not at all...I believe that having spent 1600 quid thats what they were buying...suitable instruction to make them safe...if they aint safe they shouldnt pass...and thus back into territory we have already covered. :)

I like your ideas about your 'approved list' especially the 'IMC club' aspects...it sounds like you could be getting a group of like minded together who would perhaps fly more often together...sounds great :cool: I do think this may help address the issue of currency - because a lack of safety pilot has always scuppered my own attempts...and I didnt want to ask an instructor @ commercial training schools to sit in because of charging/logging issues...however, @ the club I teach at I am more than willing to help out the folks and sit in as an interested party (safety pilot - offering advice where necessary) but not logging time...I have done this for a couple of peeps in the last few months...I too gained from it as much as they probably did - even though I have an IR....it is always interesting to watch others fly (while looking out of course!).