Future at Virgin [Archive]

Self Loading Freight

15th Sep 2002, 01:28

Was on VS20 recently, and I thought it odd that the cabin announcements from the flight deck were terse and uncommunicative. No names, no banter, not an extra ounce.

We had a long delay waiting for takeoff clearance at SFO, which got one very short "Don't know what's going on, they seem to have halted departures from the left hand runway, we'll let you know if we can find anyone who knows what's going on" after around 45 minutes sitting on the taxiway. I suppose there's some comfort in knowing that the people driving the thing are as narked as the rest of us, but it wasn't very professional. Were things strained all over due to 911?

As it happened, around three minutes after the PA on the departure problems, we took off without another word - which caused some difficulties, as a couple of pax had asked permission on hearing the announcement to use the loos and been told it was OK. I think it's the first time I've seen people dashing *away* from a toilet that urgently...

Without a further message that things had cleared up, the cabin crew didn't have a chance to resecure the cabin before we were trundling down the runway. I'd think that if an indeterminate delay had been announced, it would be reasonable for the cabin crew to allow use of the loos until further information had been received. On the other hand, can they let people undo seatbelts in that situation without explicit permission? Lack of communication between the flght deck and the cabin?

Also, the state of the cabin electics was very poor. The in-flight entertainment at my seat gave up the ghost (and it wasn't the only one, by a long chalk), there was a PA asking for anyone with a working reading light who wasn't planning on using it to swap seats with someone whose light had broken, and a section in economy had lost their overhead no smoking/fasten seatbelts annunciators. That has safety implications, which I'm glad to say the cabin crew dealt with admirably during the flight, but the whole thing added up to something far short of the advertised Virgin experience.

I should say that the cabin crew were exemplary throughout, and coped with everything with good humour and patience.

Just a POV from the back of the bus.

R

NigelOnDraft

15th Sep 2002, 09:57

Self Loading Freight

Might be nice to amend your post to removed the exact flight and date. Then there is no chance of the crew being traced by the employer, and made to answer your statements...

Maybe "a West Coast flight" in "the last few days" would be better?

NoD

PS Now see pPrune Towers has done so - thank you

World Traveller

16th Sep 2002, 08:03

I'm with SLF here, as another SLF I was "on a Heathrow to the US East Coast just over a week ago" and there wasn't a single word from the flight deck. Cabin crew were exemplary though. IFE was old & knackered.

Aircraft was G-VFAB. Hope that doesn't give it away.

Shame as VS always come across as a good airline......

WT

crewrest

16th Sep 2002, 11:12

World traveller

Whilst the IFE may have been 'knackered' (or unservicable) when it is unknackered you have about 12 movie channels on your own screen, 6 different games and an inflight map, you have a telephone on a wall near you too. That is the 'old' fit. I bet you not have that on many other carrier's flights ex-LHR to the east coast USA

When the LHR machines have been for their 'B' checks, the movies will be 'on demand' on a bigger personal screen and the phone moves to the newly redesinged seat. You can also plug in the lap top, and do e-mail and SMS soon. The cabin crew will, of course keep the excellent standard they always have.

I have not been on a Virgin flight when the flight deck have not done a PA, so I guess that yours (and the post above) were rare events.

Morale in the company merely reflects present times and customers are still treated as well as the they ever have with the large dose of 'Virgin Flair' again, far better than the majors ex-LHR.

dickyflys

16th Sep 2002, 13:41

I don't know which airline crewrest works for but Virgin has gone RIGHT down!

I have worked there many years. The product is a disaster, IFE problems are correct. Morale couldn't be any lower with large numbers of cabin crew leaving and flights going without a full compliment.

The pilots are EXTREMELY fed up and also leaving.

If Virgin is still the great airline, where are the airline of the year awards this year? Virgin didn't get ANY!

needles

16th Sep 2002, 16:00

Unfortunately, what dickyflys says is true.

Morale really is rock-bottom. Under-crewed flights, tired and fed-up pilots, disrupted rosters and no home-life. 9hr+ Florida flights with only 2 pilots using flight-time limitations designed for seasonal charter operators.

Even the Engineers admit to having to dispatch aircraft with unserviceable IFE leaving the cabin crew to cope with the wrath of unhappy passengers.

What's obvious from the above comments is that the valued pax are beginning to notice. Lets hope the management wake up before it's too late.:confused:

Splat

16th Sep 2002, 16:19

That's not what they are saying as I type on Virgin Radio!!

I. M. Esperto

16th Sep 2002, 17:37

I saw an item that explained that Virgin will no longer provide the compartment for mothers changing babies diapers. It seems there were too many couples wishing to join The Mile High Club, and the changing table couldn't take the load.

HOUND

16th Sep 2002, 18:16

Those who wish a career with Virgin should consider the following.....a pilot joining the airline today will now wait between 10 to 15 years for their command which will require 37 new aircraft.The airline has only 42 pilots retiring between now and 2013.Easy to decide if its a great option.

WOOF

Flightrider

16th Sep 2002, 18:52

Needles, at the risk of playing devil's advocate, why is it any less acceptable for Virgin to run "9hr+ Florida flights with only 2 pilots using flight-time limitations designed for seasonal charter operators" when charter operators operate 9hr+ flights to Florida with 2 pilots in competition with Virgin?

Not being narky, just felt this was not an unreasonable question to ask. Surely you are not implying that the seasonal charter operators are any less safe than Virgin?

JW411

16th Sep 2002, 18:58

I am given to believe that one of the major reasons that flight crews in Virgin are so badly paid is that the Grinning Pullover has always found a ready supply of 55 year-old ex-BA pilots who are prepared to accept that level of recompense in order to allow them to supplement their niggardly BA final salary scheme pensions.

dickyflys

16th Sep 2002, 20:51

The word to spread here guys is DON'T GO THERE!

Everything you ever heard about the grass being greener is proven at Virgin Atlantic.

If you do nothing else tomorrow, please help us all out in Virgin and spread the word, as PPrune seems to work!

It used to be great, and it's all gone. The money used to be compensated by fun and benefits. Not anymore.

You will notice that you don't see the grinning pullover much anymore!

Wonder why? He is in hiding from his crew.

It's a shame.

smiths

16th Sep 2002, 23:45

Dickyflys:

Are you one of the few that left CX to join Virgin? :rolleyes:

SET/SAFE/ARMED

17th Sep 2002, 01:27

Flightrider,

It’s very interesting that you use the wording “seasonal charter operator”.

Virgin Atlantic is a scheduled airline, not a seasonal charter airline. If that were the case then presumably Virgin pilots would work only part of the year, and have the rest of the year to recuperate....??

To any pilot (whether charter or otherwise) the Florida 2 variation is dangerous, and should never have been implemented. It stinks of commercial pressure, and we like fools have gone along with it.

Only by standing together will we be able to combat this and many other daily assaults on our safety and self esteem.

SET/SAFE?/ARMED

B767300ER

17th Sep 2002, 03:27

Just curious, but what (approximately) is the pay differential between BA and VS 744 Captains?

I must say both carriers provide great service, but VS wins overall. Exceptional service and very attentive flight attendents.

Thanks in advance.
http://www.surfsidehawaii.com/aatwa.gif

Lisa

17th Sep 2002, 08:13

Its not only the pilots and cabin crew who have had enough. In just about all departments people are leaving in much larger numbers than Virgin has had in the past. As to the 'unserviciability' of the aircraft IFE etc this is just the result of a lack of spares and more so the lack of Engineers to maintain the syastem. Wonder why aircraft are often late due techinical problems? Could be to do with the record number of licensed engineers that have left? Delays at check-in = lack of check-in staff, passengers waitng up to 45 minutes after a flight for assistance with wheelchairs = lack of staff etc etc........
As a previous post said, why didn't Virgin win any awards this year................if your staff are happy..................

Carpe

17th Sep 2002, 08:57

Flightrider. The point about 2-man to Florida Virgin v charter is that the charter guys only do it in the summer season. Virgin have 3-5 flights to Florida a day all year round and so we can end up flying the max 2 a month, every month.

I don't think 9+ hr flights should ever be performed by 2 pilots, charter or scheduled, and we were fools ever to have agreed to do them. Rolled over by the CAA yet again in the interest of saving a couple of grand (which probably went to the to@@er who got it approved for the airline anyway)

As for morale at Virgin, it's lower than a snakes a@@ and unless something radical is done about pay and conditions, the mobile voter will continue to move to pastures green (or orange!)

TightSlot

17th Sep 2002, 11:46

B767300ER - u do realise that's a 75 image don't you?

Carpe

17th Sep 2002, 12:20

Why has this been moved? A perfectly good discussion has been shunted into the sideings.

I. M. Esperto

17th Sep 2002, 13:22

Here's the link to the Mile High Club problem:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&click_id=29&art_id=qw1032150604136B211&set_id=1

Mialo

17th Sep 2002, 15:54

I heard that some ex Virgin Pilots were leaving easyjet to rejoin
Virgin. Why would they return to a company with such low moral, in all seriouness if the preverbial hits the fan again easy won't take them back!

B767300ER

17th Sep 2002, 17:17

Of course I know it's a 757!

(we fly both here at AA)

Right down to the P&W TWA engines and the RR AA engines.

Cheershttps://image.jetnet.aa.com/imageserver45/aa/9_11_feature_header.gif

I. M. Esperto

17th Sep 2002, 17:30

Got this via e-mail:

Mile high club bonk to bits

Romper room ... passengers used baby changing rooms on Virgin Airbus for romps

By PAUL CROSBIE

VIRGIN'S latest airliner is being revamped after randy passengers discovered a tiny cabin was just the place to join the Mile High Club.

The £130million Airbus 340-600 is fitted with a 5ft x 4ft mother and baby room with a plastic table meant for changing nappies.

But couples keep wrecking it by sneaking in for a quick bonk.

Virgin has replaced the table several times even though the plane only came into service a few weeks ago.

It is named Claudia Nine after sexy model Claudia Schiffer, 32, who launched it in July.

Now Virgin bosses have asked Airbus to build a stronger table.

At first, German engineers responsible for the jet's interior were baffled by the problem.

The table is designed to take the weight of a mum and baby.

One Airbus worker said: "We couldn't work it out. Then the penny dropped. It didn't occur to the Germans that this might happen. It caused great amusement."

The firm say the cost of strengthening the tables will be about £200.

A Virgin spokeswoman said: "Those determined to join the Mile High Club will do so despite the lack of comforts.

"We don't mind couples having a good time but this is not something that we would encourage because of air regulations."

The new Airbus is the world's longest airliner, with teasing slogan "Mine is bigger than yours". Virgin is using it on flights to the Far East and the US.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We got our B-767 simulator training at a facility near Gatwick.

thegypsy

18th Sep 2002, 06:25

Dickflys If you think things will get any better in Virgin financially then think again as SIA now own 49% and they are past masters at screwing Pilots although it does help having Draconian Labour laws to back up your threats and intimidation. The only reason SIA were interested in Virgin is cos it is a Low Cost Airline just like SIA!!

TightSlot

18th Sep 2002, 11:25

B767300ER - I should have checked yr profile - apols

minge muncher

18th Sep 2002, 22:02

Easy,

If I were you I would look elsewhere. The expected time to command is 10-12 years notwithstanding any more market downturns, this equates to @37 extra aircraft.......

The Fun has gone, morale is rock bottom & the salary is among the worst worldwide for Long-Haul operations.

As for the 2 crew Florida's, I was affected by this: the limits are 9 in 6 months, I was called out for an extra MIA & was told that it was my 9th, it was in fact my 10th but one had "got lost" in the system!!!!!! Before I left crewing was groaning at the seams, lots of crew on Unapid Leave aren't going back at the moment even though the company are asking them to return.

I joined Virgin for a career, this is now not a reason to join as experience has shown that when the chips are down you are very expendable.....

There are worse companies out there.. but there are also a lot better.:(

fatal bert

19th Sep 2002, 01:04

This thread confirms what I have thought for a long time. Fly Virgin (or anyone else for that matter) and get a grumpy Captain and its a relatively insiginificant event. Get a grumpy cabin staff or the IFE doesn't work and you cross the terminal and fly with another airline next time. Moral of the story: Don't moan about how much pilots are paid because so long as the autopilot does its job you have little or no direct impact on the passenger (customer) and therefore no control or impact on the profitability of the company. Show me a single successful company that pays its staff 50k plus when they have no impact on the bottom line. No wonder airlines struggle to make a profit. Stop moaning and get a real job ( 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year) like the rest of the country.

Rant over, 'step away from the thread Mr Bert its about to explode'

Maximum

19th Sep 2002, 08:19

Fatal bert.............what????????

overworked, fatigued, grumpy Captain = lack of ability to concentrate properly on job at hand = danger to all on board.

This is why airline managements should be brought to book for their consistent ability to ignore the relationship between fatigue, low morale and flight safety.

I think you'll find that pilots can have a very real effect on the bottom line............

....and another thing....

Fatal bert, I see from your one other post that your an ex-military pilot.

It would be nice to see some support from a colleague....

So, other than trying to wind us all up, I don't get this "don't moan about how much pilots are paid" and "stop moaning and get a real job like the rest of the country" c**p.

If we the pilots don't complain about our t's and c's, who else is going to stand up for us? How in hell's name will we have any control over our working lives and indirectly the quality of life for our families?

*sigh*......

fatal bert

19th Sep 2002, 09:13

OK then a slight expansion on my last post. It was written at 0200 so was a bit vitriolic, sorry.
The point that wound me up was the moan early in the thread with regard to FO's at Go earning more than their equivalent at Virgin. While I accept that their is a traditional hierarchy of airline employment in terms of pay and conditions (and prestige) with the long haul operators at the top of the tree, I believe the low cost guys are under considerably more pressure to achieve and are working a lot harder. So rather than complain about how much people at Go earn just be grateful you managed to get a job at the top of the food chain.

Maximum

19th Sep 2002, 10:03

Thanks for the reply FB. Glad to see I'm not the only one who suffers from the 0200 rant......(usually alcohol induced in my case).

I agree about the direct comparisons between airlines - tends to deflect from the main issue. :)

The Big Easy

19th Sep 2002, 20:04

Thanks for the postings men.

I'll look elsewhere.

The Big Easy.:(

dickyflys

20th Sep 2002, 08:10

I didn't leave CX for Virgin.
I haven't heard of ANYBODY coming back to Virgin from Easyjet.

Again, PLEASE all spread the word that Virgin is NOT the place to be anymore.

Racing Driver

20th Sep 2002, 19:44

Dickyflys

I know of at least SIX people leaving Easy to come back to Virgin, maybe more. They're even paying off thier £17k bonds to leave (£15.52 per day they leave before the 3 years is up!)

Maybe you think Virgin is bad but is Easy worse?????

RD

Caractacus

20th Sep 2002, 20:10

Hmmm. Well that's interesting. I'd heard we were touting for temporary FO contracts on the 400 to cover the winter.

Right Way Up

22nd Sep 2002, 11:04

Maybe you'll find those leaving Easyjet to return to Virgin, were never on Long-haul!:cool:

Dunhovrin

25th Sep 2002, 10:39

Ref leaving easy for Virgin:

Story is they are ex-cadets who spent 2 years with Virgin Sun doing 2 sector days 4 times a month then had a couple of months on the 340 bunk before redundancy. As a result, so the story goes, they found 4 sector days with easy a bit of a shock... Of course this is only hearsay and I would hate to think this was true.

As for the pay- not only Go but easy and bmi F/Os take home about 500 - 800 quid per month more than me. When you balance in (?) pension and rosters I still think the short-haul guys are ahead. (Shame I biffed the easyJet sim really).

Astronut

25th Sep 2002, 15:09

not sure about bmi f/o's earning that much. Go/Easy/Ryan I can undersand with sector pay but bmi? The word out of Crawley is that they have been somewhat inundated with CVs many of which are from bmi, if they were earning that much why leave?

Fuji-san

25th Sep 2002, 16:57

The bmi guys are leaving 'cos the LHR operation is about to be 'downsized'. Those at the lower end of the seniority list could be 'surplus to requirements' and either made redundant, or re-fleeted & offered positions in the regions. Cash is not the deciding factor here, morale is all-time low.:(
What with rumours of an ALLIANCE (read LUFTHANSA) buyout looming, and the Final Salary Pension Scheme in jeopardy, you can understand the desire to get out before the current supply of reasonable alternatives dries up.

Racing Driver

27th Sep 2002, 11:27

Dunhovrin

You must be refering to some others leaving easy for Virgin.

None of the six I know were cadets...they'd be upset to be called cadets!! (I don't think any of the 5 cadets went to easy anyway? I might be wrong!).

Of the guys leaving easy that I know some have 10 years plus experience and all have flown with a variety of airlines - draw your own conclusions from their descision to rejoin Virgin.

As they say, the grass is always greener.....

northern boy

28th Sep 2002, 22:23

I'm one of the "Easy six" and would like to clear up a few misconceptions.

1:Yes we were Sun drivers, none were cadets and none did a few months "in the bunk" before redundancy.

2:All offers were for full time positions. No one would have given up a full time position for a part time contract.

3: The basic Pay and Pension benefits at Easy are considerably worse than those offered at VS. One point worth mentioning is that the VS scales are incremental whereas the Easy scale is fixed and is in fact dereasing in real terms.

4: Long time to command. Thats a decision that we have all had to make. However any one contemplating going to easy as an FO should be aware that commands are in the gift of certain individuals, and can be put off indefinatley if you are perceived as not being "orange".This can be for reasons as diverse as refusing to compromise CAP 371 to not wearing a tie in the crew room.
Promises are made and broken very easily. No pun intended.

5: Lifestyle. Its appalling. No one is under any illusion that VS is the promised land. We've all worked there before. However we have all chosen to return and that I think says a great deal.
BTW we did around 3-4 trips per week on Sun usually to Greece/Turkey/Canaries in the summer and 2-3 (sometimes less) in the winter to Spain/Canaries and Israel. It was a great life, people enjoyed it most of the time and moaned as per usual.We all joined VS because we wanted to fly LH at the end of the day.
Some on unpaid leave have found other opportunities and all the best to them. The returning crew that I am in contact with are counting the days until we can get away from Easyjet. And yes, in 12 months we'll all be moaning about Virgin!.

hdaae

29th Sep 2002, 06:04

Flying for any kind of money are fun in my book unless your required to stay at the airport more than 16 hours a day 7 days a week.

In the company I work with we have quite a few ppl complaining about salary, and Ill admit the pay is low.
But I knew that coming in, so I dont really see any reason to complain about it afterwards.

Dunhovrin

29th Sep 2002, 10:24

OK Chaps:

Ref easy6: I was wrong - sorry about that. Indeed your return to the fold almost makes me glad I biffed the easy sim ride last month.

Ref Bmi pay: I was right. 2 days ago swapped pay slips with a mate who's a 2 year F/O on 73s at bmi. He took home £300 more than me last month. His co pension contributions were 8%, not 16% but doing the maths he's still better off than me. (And he doesn't have a wife and kids to neglect...).

However comma he's sniffing elsewhere because of the re-structure and the **** roster and tw@ts in management. Indeed he's looking at easyJet..(back to square 1).

So it seems to me it's all the same wherever you are. And here's my cunning plan. Let's all sit tight for 6 months and stop playing musical seats. Then the recruitment intrays will empty and the companies will have to treat us with the respect we deserve 'cos there's no one to replace us (apart from Serbs, Crabs and other ne'er-do-wells..) Hohum back to the pub.

Maximum

29th Sep 2002, 11:29

hdaae:

?????? Good grief...........:rolleyes:

MAXIMOL

2nd Oct 2002, 18:53

Moral is low, people are leaving and people are not coming back.

As for the Florida 2 thing. It is the fact that we do end up doing the maximum amount, 2 a month and 9 in 6 months, well most of us anyway............and then you end up doing another 2-4 longhaul flights in a month. Talk about fatigue, 2 days off between trips isn't enough time to get over the loss of the nights sleep on the return flight and you are off again, and again, etc....

Oh yes and low pay and another 6 or 7 years to cammand...or maybe no command!!

scroggs

4th Oct 2002, 11:17

There are many issues at Virgin that require urgent attention right now. For Flight Deck these include Ts&Cs and Florida 2 as already mentioned, and the discussions about these are ongoing. Unfortunately, some of those who comment on this thread are either unaware of the true situation, or have another agenda....

Virgin was fat, dumb and fairly happy prior to 9/11, which probably went for the whole long-haul industry. 9/11 brought home some major economic truths (which were beginning to become apparent anyway) which could not be ignored and needed immediate and drastic action to ensure survival. Inevitably, that action was OTT in some areas, and had unforeseen effects in others, but there wasn't time to do a huge feasibilty study before implementation!! Those contingent problems are now beginning to be addressed, but it'll be a long time before it's all as we would like it. Like I say, this applies to the whole long-haul industry.

The feelings of unease, dissatisfaction and disruption that the last 12 months have brought are not unique to Virgin, neither are the cost savings that have resulted in some of the passenger reactions seen earlier in this thread. As revenues and profits improve, these things will turn around.

As Dunhovrin' said, we should perhaps sit on our hands for a while longer and see how the industry pans out. That green grass could turn out to be painted concrete, and it'll bloody well hurt if you jump over your particular fence!!