NJS pulls out of Rockhampton

[24]

So one says, NJS is closing the Rocky base, anyone else heard this or is my little black duck got a bee in her bonnet?

[CAYNINE]

Heard today, Rocky and Makay, Impulse to take over.

[apacau]

Does this mean 717s BNE-Rocky/Mackay????

[MIss Behaviour]

So what alternatives do ROK or MKY based crew have now?

a) A transfer to another NJS base.

b) Absorption in to QF mainline incl QF Link and/or Eastern (the least QF could do seeing as though they are the root of the problem).

Does this now mean that NJS will have too many pilots (post ROK & MKY closure) for the remainder of flights they operate on their network?

Do QF have further plans to infiltrate any more of the NJS network with the 717?

Will Australian Airlines (AO) ever operate a/c smaller than a 767 that will compete with what's left of NJS? :eek: :eek:

[Wonderworld]

Miss Behaviour why should Qantas absorb you if NJS decide to withdraw from the ROK and MKY markets. QF is not the problem, you are with the attitude that you are owed something.
None of us are really owed anything by an employer. If the job dissapears, yes it is sad but you just have to go on.
If NJS do pull out then at least these markets will get decent aircraft.:eek:

[sexkitten118]

The change over date is the 28th of October (end of current schedule I think). Only the YBRK base to close. NJS doesn't have a say in the base closing it is all done by THE BIG Q.:(

[topend3]

think you will find as 146s grow older qf will start to take over those routes using the 717, though i think the 146s still have a while to go on the leases to njs???

[CAYNINE]

NJS have been given the same royal rogering by Q that they received in CB when Southern were uncerimoniously removed from Tasmania diplacing NJS crews (and Families) to Perth.

It appears that the big decision makers are at it again, more screwed pilots, FA's and families, where do the Rocky and Mackay guy's go now? Will Q pay for their redeployment?

One thing is for sure watching the fiasco in Southern, NJS crew can forget any oportunity of progressing into mainline, they simply don't want regional pilots.

I know that the old "well NJS are contractors" line will once again be touted, but remember we are all out there with some anticipation of a future.

Hope something works out well for all.

[MIss Behaviour]

Some people round here need to take a reality check as their attitude smacks of 'I'm alright Jack, f**k everyone else'.

They're probably the same children who never shared their toys and might be more appropriate for them to vent their grievances at their spell-checker rather than their fellow aviators.

I've seen plenty of people who adopt this holier than thou attitude when it comes to other people, then should they have the misfortune to find themselves in the same situation squeal like stuck pigs. :rolleyes:

[tayman]

Q may get some competition in QLD yet, watch for Alliances' F100's. There's no cheaper comparable type 100 seater avbl.
With more a/c to come(maybe six or more) that airline will show a clean set of heels to 717s,737s and 146's
Old Flight West had a top rep for service, Q wasn't in the same league. Their cabin girls were great, many have returned to the new Alliance..... and great eyecandy!!!.:p

[CAYNINE]

MIss B............What the??????

[airbrake42]

Topend3

you are very slow on the uptake old mate.

As stated plenty of times before................

717 don't have the range for several of the 146 routes.
717 with 100+ seats replacing a 64 seat aircraft on skinny routes, I don't think so.

The 146 will be replaced but not by 717's. The goss around thois part of the world is that the 717's have alimited future, reason for that no idea just rumour and gossip but time will tell.

[CAYNINE]

I hear the AD-CB-AD route is going back to the 146 maybe that is the redeployment, NJS crews to CB to bolster the thinning number of Southern crew along with it more flying? Could even be staged out of BN very easily. BN-CB-AD-CB-BN would be feasible.

Could be 146's back to Tassie, the 717's can't be making a lot out of LT with the DJ competition.

Rumour has it though the 717 is going up north.

[MIss Behaviour]

Caynine

I was not referring to you, I totally agree with your sentiments.

:cool:

[mppgf]

Another informed opinion !!!
Airbrake 42, please advise any route the 146 has the range for and the 717 does not.
I think you should stick to cleaning dunnies mate !
:) ;) :D

[ITCZ]

OK mppgf, tell me then...

YBAS-YPPF, 1070nm, headwind 90 knots, and Perth requires alternate (spec alt min not available.) Pearce not available (same weather). Which alternate would you nominate for your B717, and will you be telling the QF POCO to offload pax/bags/freight or otherwise limiting your load?

Or..
YBCS-YAYE, 965 miles, same headwind, YBAS not available.
How about YBBN-YBAS, 1061nm, YAYE not available?

Remember that someone who is worth the title of RPT jet captain would be expecting to at least shoot one approach before proceeding to a decent alternate.

I agree with Miss B, I am getting more than a LITTLE P!SSED at the brainless comments made on this forum about whose airline is 'better' than the next.

Who you work for has about stuff-all to do with how good you are. I have mates flying burners in (the former) Impulse, (the former) Ansett, (former) Flight West, Virgin, Qantas, Cathay, Singapore, Dragonair, Ryanair, JAL. All former bush pilots that beat around in crappy old cessnas and barons. Having worked shoulder-to-shoulder with all of them 24/7, I can tell you that they are all deserving of where they got to, but you CANT TELL ME THAT ONE IS ANY BETTER THAN ANOTHER by virtue of which faceless bureacrat ticked the box and put them on the payroll.

It may be time to stop operating under pseudonyms and register under your real name. That way we might get less sh!t stirring from the hoi polloi [sic].

Cut the beer talk and lets have some info from operators who know what they are doing.

I await informed opinion on the B717 v. the B146 on westerly routes exceeding 950 miles.

[Loco's Smoko]

In response to the request for informed information these are some figures based on routes we currently fly.

YBCG-YMHB
wind component -95kts (headwind)
tempo holding
full flight
distance 950nm

fuel burn 6300kg

and still has payload remaining!

Aircraft doesn't have to many field problems either
we can use alternates like YMNG and YCOM(with an ACN dispo)
for a plane carrying an extra 50 bodies it's a good machine

Figures have been done for YPAD-YPPH and the HGW Aircraft can do it in strong winds and Bad weather without loss of pax.

Weights for the HGW aircraft are

BRW 53524kg
LW 49895kg
ZFW 45586kg

[Dehavillanddriver]

So with a full load you can carry 8 tonnes of gas.

How far is that going to get you with reasonable fuel remaining at destination?

[Snafu_too]

Re the 717, with a full load of pax on the HGW aircraft it would be very unlikely to have a payload of more than 11000kg or 12000kg max as the hold will bulk out first (unless your carrying gold). So with a DOW of 31000kgs you're looking at 10 or 11 tonnes of gas and a full ship of punters. Hope this helps the err.... conversation!

[Loco's Smoko]

DH Driver

Using VQG (config 12J90Y)
OEW 30978kg
102pax X 84kg
+1 bag per person at 14kg per bag

ZFW = 40,974kg
allowing for extra bags and or freight lets call it a round 42500kg
(an extra 1500+kgs)
minus that from the Max BRW of 53524kg
= 11,000kg approx.
minus from that 1500kg of fixed reserves
110% of flight fuel = 9500kg
therefore max flight fuel is around 8600-8700kg
with a full flight

holding rate is 1800kg/hr
if you need more fuel you can just take it from the 1500+kgs
I allowed for earlier in the calculation
can anyone publish similar figures for the BAe146

[MoFo]

Help me out here someone.

Is NJS a subcontracter selling a service to QF?

If so, repeat... if so, they can hardly scream if QF decide to replace their services with a fully owned QF subsidary.

NJS originally got the gig from James Strong, when NJS were owned by a mate of his. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.

[sprucegoose]

I agree with the sentiment regarding aircraft and future fleet composition. I get the impression QF regional will be going Brazilian....and I don't mean the pubic wax job either!

[Hugh Jarse]

Listen for the "rumble from the Jungle". :D

[mppgf]

ITCZ,
I think Loco's Smoke has answered the question.
I agree with your sentiments regarding who you work for having no bearing on what sort of operator you are.
(See some of my previous posts which are very similar to your post regarding this).
As far as NJS crew losing out to the Impulse 717's replacing them in some instances, I certainly feel for these PEOPLE.
I am still interested to hear what a 146 can do ie range,payload etc that a 717 cannot.
As far as airbrake 42 is concerned. You still have not answered my question so I assume you have no idea what you are talking about.Your statement regarding the 717's having a limited future leads me to believe that you are on drugs.If you put down dunny cleaner as your occupation in your profile than expect people to refer to it.
Finally , if Qantas does introduce a new regional jet hopefully the 146 guy's will get to operate it (Best of luck).
:)

[mauswara]

Loco, Re:717 vs 146 payload range! Understand Gerry (remember him!) initially started out with LGW versions.Obviously the il cheapo version of the HGW version you quote figures for.(a bit like holden's Belmont vs Kingswood.) After your tails turned red, we hear stories of fuel on/bags off SYD-Hammo is. with wx. at Hammo.QF not too happy.Next thing you guys are in and out of tassie and we hear stories of more bags off (LAUNY-MEL) This time due landing wt. problems.Whether true or not the stories are out there and the 717 is gaining something of a "short legged " reputation.(a trait it inherited from the DC-9 it seems.)I think the B717/MD-80/DC-9 is one of the finest a/c ever built,the 146 one of the worst, but it seems your 71's were initially optimised MEL-SYD-BNE with not much thought to go elsewhere. cheers maus.

[Capn Bloggs]

MPPGF,

Try this one sucker: ASP 40deg into -80kt to PER+30 with 87pax. Get there in your diesel 9? Don't think so! Gimme a swinebat anyday.

PS: 31t OEW for 102 pax?? Who's paying the landing charges for something that's got enough metal in it to make an A380??

[topend3]

airbrake 42

you may well be right in that the 717 won't directly replace the 146 in QF service, but where did you hear the rumour that the 717 is on the way out? they recently started taking delivery of 6 more on type and i believe qf is rapt with them. you should get a new source i think????

and why call yourself dunny cleaner mate???? too much coffeee or drugs???:confused: :confused:

[topend3]

how long has airnorth been doing national jet maintenance for? noticed a 146-200 down in AirNorth's maintenance hangar on Saturday night? is this a regular occurrence or are nj just using the facilities, a couple of 146's went u/s on the weekend. that is ops normal i suppose....:D :p

[detached observer]

Aircraft performance is not the only relevant factor when considering 146 replacement. A 146 capital cost is just a fraction of the capital costs of a 717. Even if 717 has marginally better payload / range, if this costs you 6 times what the 146 does, how do you justify a change of aircraft? Who pays? The company / the pax?
Many people knock the 146 and demand for replacemement - but I would like to see real justification. The aircraft is old? Compared to what, on what criteria? Cycles, years? Reliability of this type is actually improving.
Regional airstrips are often short with hot temps, the 146 handles this like no other I am aware of, and does it very cheaply, with large cabin comfort, unlike the CRJ, ERJ. Incidently, the CRJ and ERJ also have capital costs several times that of the 146.

[flyswat]

146vs717??
You guys are kidding.....
airbrake and co. you must be from EAA? get over it all ready, the pulse got the jet's live with it.
If the 146 was as FAB as you think why is it being phased out.
Airbrake with another 4 jets on there way (3 here in the next 2-3 months) I think your yankin' your own dunny chain:D
The 146 is a SHOT DUCK and about time (no offence NJS) hope you get something better or go to the pulse, sure would be better than EAA jumping on the bottom of Impulse's seniority list.:D

[Hugh Jarse]

What's this thread got to do with EAA and seniority lists?

I was having a bit of a chuckle at the number crunching.

When it all comes down to it, you get whatever the Evil Empire decides to give you...

[CAYNINE]

Well put HJ!!

What was the thread title, something about the NJS guy's and girls getting shafted out of Rocky?

The evil Empire will have done the figures, and at the end of the day no one other than the superior beings in Ivory Castle will change the process

[ditzyboy]

Yeh... Wot the last two said............

flyswat -
Where are these planes coming from? I thought that all those TWA/AA ones were spoken for....

[I'm with stupid]

Flyswat, if you think the 717 is better than the 146, from the beancounters view, then you are the one who is kidding himself.

and it has become patently obvious that ALL decisions at the evil empire are based on one thing.............counting beans.

[fruitloop]

I'm with stupid,

Have to agree with you (unfortunately)

One for you...........five for me :D :D

[CAYNINE]

YEAH, EATING BEANS CREATES GAS!!! LOTS OF IT TOO

[king bonza]

flyswat,
do you know something that we at the pulse do not. 3 -4 new jets. where do you get the info from, only a rumour at the moment. Q certainly haven't told us anything. Mind you i have been on leave for a week and a lot seems to happen in aviation in a week!!

[CAYNINE]

Well it appears that the pulse are taking over Rocky and around 30 - 50% of the flying in Mackay so that would realistically show that more 717's are required on the route network. The question then is, are the 146's at NJS being returned at the end of lease or are they also being redeployed to other regional centers? I understand that three of them are up for renewal at the end of the year.

Are there any rumours of the 146 doing other flying other than maybe the CB-AD-CB run again?

[ditzyboy]

I heard a rumour that 146s would be doing MEL-LST again.

I want to know where this other plane is coming from to do the BNE-ROK flying. Are Impulse dropping OOL again? (Remembering that we were told OOL flying and crew base would go through to March '03) Or another route?

[Pimp Daddy]

That would be right Ditzyboy, it's 12 months since the last shuffle, so time to throw the counters up in the air and see where they land.

[ndbfinal]

ditzyboy,

You'll find that, with the new schedule, BNE to ROK, MKY and PPP will replace SYD to same; no new airframes needed.

(Can always hope tho'):D

Oops, SYD - PPP still on (weekends only it seems)

(edited after having actually read the schedule properly!)

[flyswat]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA
you absolutely crack me up..oh you guys are funny......

[Won tok]

Have we got this thread sorted?
Anybody still in doubt?
The 717's performance on all routes beats the 146 hands down ...... reliability, cost, capacity and the legs. FACT!

That is why they are here to stay and are starting to replace the 146 routes.

The evil empire has spoken!

[24]

"Word is" that in a company weekly publication distributed recently the Queen Bee has made comment forcasting the future of NJS MKY base and stated its future as base looks very glim, possibly as early as next published schedule. So that would say all the guys and gals have until about Febuary/March to decide what they wish to do and think about thier options.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... it has always been the intentions of the Bid Rat to slowly introduce the 717's into regional routes currently flown by the 146 on the east coast and eliminate the contractor! Unfortunate...:(

[MIss Behaviour]

24

Just the East Coast 24? If the performance of the B717 is superior to that of the BAe146 as Won tok would have us believe
can we not expect to see 717's on all former 146 routes once their current leases expire? :confused: :confused:

[HOBAY 3]

Given that QF said that they will be using all economy class B767s to OOL, that will free up a lot of B717s. i.e. there will a lot of new B717 services in the future. But in the mean time, it will be interesting to see what happens in the immediate future when the new sechedule (effective end of october) is released.

;)

[24]

MIss B.

Only can assume what might happen but the future don't look good for keeping all the east coast flying. Surely you have seen in your time the obvious movements and realise what is happening.
I'm sure NJS are very serious about continuing their relationship with QF, and after all why would they be into the process of a fleet replacement? (The Door man would love to be at home!)
It is only a matter of time before the new aircraft type is announced, you'd know how much work would go into the conversion program and what lay ahead for the various departments within;)
Has the day of NJS working the east coast gone?... I think not!... Expansion of crew numbers and facilities into BNE are a sign of things to come? Although I believe the majority of its flying will be done W & N of ASP. but wait till late next year to find out!

[Airspeed Ambassador]

NJS are working towards a second AOC. As much as the company would like the employees to believe that there is nothing sinister in this, I can picture that NJS at some point (like when Qantas announce the addition of a new jet type such as the Embraer 170), will reinvent itself as an even lower cost operator using the new AOC with cheaper crews. Unless they do this there will be little to distinguish their cost structure from that of Airconnex.

Remember when Wazza tried to use a separate AOC to introduce the EMB145?

[gaunty]

The word according to the Fin Review is that QF will order the EMB Regional jet and get NJS to operate them.

[djembe56]

Hobay 3 - services between Launceston and Melbourne also being reduced at end of October.

[HOBAY 3]

djembe56,

where is your info from? If it's from the QF site then I wouldn't believe just yet!!! The B717 and OOL schedules are a shambles!!! There are no where near enough flights to utilise the 14 strong B717 fleet, and the schedules don't even match up properly anyway!!! And the OOL schedules are just missing!!! I find it extraordinary, that these schedules run out in fewer than four weeks. If you wanted to book a seat to OOL with QF over the net for November, you wouldn't be able to get one. By the schedules they only have a couple of services a week (not even daily) from MEL, and a couple of 717s and a 737 from SYD! Are the all economy 767s going to be operational by the end of october?? Is that the equipment that will be used to OOL? Will any B717s remain on OOL? (especially the ADL-OOL? - it needs to rotate into the network via SYD remember.) What new B717 routes will open up? CBR?? Intra WA?? Red Centre?? QF have already said that they will "trim back" services to Tasmania, so there's extra sectors available there too! Or is the B717 fleet being reduced? By the article in the Australian Aviation magazine, I would have thought QF were pretty happy with them.

Does anyone have the faintest idea what is going on???

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[HOBAY 3]

Well, the mystery B717 route is MEL-OOL. 5 flights a day on the new schedule. Also, SYD-OOL has up to 9 flights a day (B717) plus some B737s in addition. BNE-MKY has 3 B146s daily, plus 1 B717 daily. Not sure about the Tassie services yet, (they still don't match up - either does the OOL-ADL!). But with DJ increasing Lst-Mel to 3 daily, and HBA-MEL to 2 daily, QF may be rethinking their trimming back plans to this state. So what a surprise, we all thought QF would be closing down the OOL base for the 717s, and it would appear OOL is expanding as a B717 destination!

;)

[boocs]

OK folks, not sure if this should be started on this thread but it certainly relates to the closing of NJS bases.
In March next year Mackay will be closing.
Yes yes, reliable source etc etc.

[Airspeed Ambassador]

Can't wait to read the Queen Bee's message of inspiration this week!:rolleyes:

----------------
NJS fine print - Stable Aviation Career Sold Separately!

[24]

Gee......

Now where have I heard that before?:D :D

[Put me down sick]

The "Queen Bee" has announced that NJS will be closing Mackay as of March 2003, reducing services into Mackay by January 13th 2003.

Where to now for us!:(

[flipside]

I do feel for you guys, despite the fact it may help some of my colleagues myself. I just hope with the Q enforced changes you are able to continue work in the Q system, job protection,as we all know Q has no problem with making people redundant

[djembe56]

Apparently NJS are to merge with Impulse....

[Astroboy]

That sounds interesting 56.
I would love to know where you heard that one. Sounds a little unlikely to me......but do you have a time frame too?;)

[alidad]

No. Impulse is to merge with NJS- There is a difference..

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Interesting concept 56. Where did you hear that one? I think you are on the right path though mate. I to have heard such things. NJS has a pool of highly trained guys with jet time which makes them quite attractive for recruiting in the future.

Best of luck.

[Cart_tart]

All BNE FA transfers have been cancelled.
Rumour is that it is going to close - FA manager has called a base meeting wednesday....

[Sir Topham Hatt]

Be aware of a new phase in NJS history, as a new AOC may be drawn up with what is said to be a new budget airline.
Question for you wizz's.... what is Wazza doing in ADL? And why has his offspring come offline to join him ?... One I'm sure the ACCC will enjoy getting involved in shortly as NJS fights numourous battles.
:eek:

[24]

In just over 4 weeks from today NJS MKY base will be no more!
Where is this heading, word is that the MKY crew have lodged legal action apon NJS, and have been strongly advised they have a very good case!
Management had requested a meeting with the crew when they caught wind of this but the offer of a meeting was declined. Shortly after, although "evidently" no more BNE base transfers were being accepted, a few crew from were advised of BNE transfers! (is this a quick back step or what?)
So where to now? And what next?:(

[ditzyboy]

The budget airline.... Is that JetEx? One of the NJS girls I chatted to mentioned something about it. Sounds like a great idea to half everyone's pay for doing the same job.... :mad:

Oh and I would just like to mention what a pleasure it is to cross paths with the people of NJS. Whenever we Impulse folk say G'Day you guys and gals are all smiles and so very positive. I think that with so much uncertainty some of you face the fact that you can be so positive and professional says a lot about you. You are all mature professionals and have alot to offer the industry. Thank you also for not being negative towards us when it is the 717s which are closing down your base. Once again it is very mature of you and does not go unnoticed.

What are the details of the court case? Grounds etc...? I hope the troops benefit somehow!

[Dan Kelly]

Don't forget that NJS is a contract service providor. As such if QF say we don't want you in Rockvegas or MKY, then unless the contract has been breached, theres little that can be done about it.

[ditzyboy]

Not forgetting that QF are dealing with people here and not robots! People have lives and families and futures to consider.

[I'm with stupid]

Definitely not sticking up for NJS or those *!!$$#@ Qantas, but I think the Mackay guys and gals better take another look at their AWAs/EBAs.