Air France strike 6-9 Sept

[ORAC]

The BBC - Wednesday, 4 September, 2002, 18:21 GMT
Air France pilots to strike

Air France has said several of its pilot unions have called a strike for 6-9 September. The airline said its flight schedule would be severely disrupted on the four days, with medium- and long-haul flights most affected.

It promised customers it would "do its utmost to minimise the inconvenience" and "deplored" the action by pilots.

Announcement of the strike came after the failure on Wednesday of negotiations over contracts.

The airline said information on the flight schedule for 6-9 September would be available on its website from 1100 GMT on Thursday.

[crusin level]

Is it a rouse to get more state subsidy?

[Proceed As Cleared]

A strike in France.

What else is new?

:rolleyes:

[LUM]

They better do it now, there is still some money left on 'Air Chance' bank account.;)

From Ananova: Profits fall at Air France

Air France says its net profit fell 19% to £104.9 million in the three months to June 30.

The state-owned airline also predicts flights would be "badly disrupted" when pilots walk out between Friday and Monday.

The firm says higher airport fees, leasing costs, insurance expenses and salaries exacerbated the impact of a 4.2% decline in passenger traffic in the first quarter of the year.

Tough business conditions have only been partially offset by an increase in freight traffic and cuts in capacity as well as contained operating expenses.

The carrier has seen its fuel costs fall 10%, helped in part by the dollar's weakness against the euro. Chartering costs have declined nearly 50% as Air France end a block-seat purchases pact with partner Delta Airlines.

However, other expenses have risen sharply, with premiums for war-associated risks pushing insurance costs up sharply. Fees charged by airports and air traffic controllers rose 8% in the quarter from a year earlier.

Air France also earlier announced that, like some other airlines, it was reducing capacity to meet a slump in ticket sales around September 11, the anniversary of the terror attacks in the United States last year.

[maxalt]

Yes, those French pilots are among the last in europe with any real b***s. I'm tired of seeing our profession kicked downstairs. This is the only way to get some respect....allez France!

[Shuttleworth]

Max alt.
That's exactly what I was thinking.

Sadly this forum is full of guys who mistakenly think the airline business is strapped for cash.. and consequently pilots should only be paid the same as tube drivers.

tossers!

[Scottie]

Watch and learn British Airways pilots.

You have the most highly unionised flight crew in the UK. Use it :)

[Lodestar]

I hope they know very well what they are doing!!!

I tought there existed fixed payscales in France, defined by law????

Maybe this is different for AF pilots.....

[GlueBall]

Watch and learn CX pilots...if you all had balls like the AF pilots, you'd have those "49ers" back on the line many moons ago.

I truly admire the airtight solidarity of the AF pilot group. Way to go and way to get things done. Better organized than any ALPA represented U.S. pilot group.:cool:

[starship]

CDG feels a different place tonight - never seen so many babybus / 737's parked up along lengthy stretches of taxiway, and block times so short. At least the busses are back on.....no more 8 pax at a time from the aircraft to the gate in the handling agent's minibus.....:cool:

cheers,

starship.

['%MAC']

NPR reported that Air France pilots were among the best paid in the industry; senior captains bringing home 400,000 USD (Euro). Can anyone substantiate that claim?

[Jet II]

Good luck to the Air France crews - at least they have got the guts to do something about their desire for higher wages - unlike many on this forum who just continually talk about doing something.

:)

[overstress]

%Mac:

And your implication is what, exactly?

[PrettyBoy]

I guess you could applaude the AF pilots for standing up against the company to demand what they might deserve but the problem is when the customer is being held hostage in the process. Personally, I feel no solidarity towards AF staff whatsoever and it seems that everytime I book or plan to fly with AF, a strike is being planned.

Go ahead, strike all you want but I suspect that I'm not the only potential customer AF have lost forever because of all the hassle these strikes causes.

On second thoughts, please strike even more. This way fewer people need to endure your unlimited hospitalty.......

[maxalt]

So "Prettyboy", you feel no solidarity toward AF pilots?
Well I guess they feel no solidarity toward male models.

Nor do I.
So we're all square.

Never gonna travel AF again?
Well how about BA when they strike?
And Aer Lingus?
And Lufthansa etc etc....

With an attitude like that your travel options are gonna get pretty limited. Gonna take up transatlantic swimming? Or buy a rowing boat perhaps?

You're crackin' me up. :rolleyes:

['%MAC']

Dear Sir,

I have no hidden agenda, not implying anything, I’m just wondering what they make as the work action seems to be about an increase in pay. Not all strikes are about pay increase. Just curious what they make as compared to their counter-parts.

[wallabie]

% Mac

Toss that joint away. It is obviously very poor quality grass you're smoking mate ! Or is it you are sniffing glue ?
400 000 Euro ??? Do you even realize what you are saying when UAL 777 Captains were supposed to have signed the best ever contract last year with a take home pay of 300 000 USD ?
Air France Senior Captains ( 744 / 777 ) will be lucky if they take 153 000 Euro net pay before income taxes and that's as far as it goes.
Average short haul Captain takes 100 000 Euros a year ( before income taxes that depends on marital status, children.... ) , 18 / 20 days on stick ( 850 block hours a year )with duty times up to 10:30 hours. I wouldn't call that a walk in the park even if if it is a lot better than some other slave drivers in the industry. But do have to outshine them ?? I think NOT.

Spreading this kind of unfounded and unverified rumors like you do is pathetic and I suggest you stick your head back to where the moon doesn't shine. I kind'o lose my civil tone when angry.
Get your bloody act together will you !
Applauding Lufthansa strike last year and bashing Air France today when it is for the exact same reason and actually less than the 26 % they got. Where is your logic if you have any ?
As to the compagny's performance : Only 3 airlines currently make money in the world and in the following order :
Singapore, Qantas, Air France, even forseeing an increase in revenue despite the ongoing strike. Air France is still heavily recruiting pilots and I feel sorry if you're not one of them. No, I'll rephrase, I feel blessed you are not one of them.
I know this gives you heart burns but I'm afraid you'll have to live with it.
For the last batch of ignorant twitts lurking around this site, EEC rules do not allow subsidising and Air France, although state owned does not, will not receive a dime. One exeption though with the aftermath of Set 11 that applied to everyone within the EAA.
Our salary has been frozen for the last 7 years and the only increase one is likely to see is moving up to a larger aircraft. Our pension system is a ( bad ) joke and should you get a similar one you'd be pretty pissed off to and you'd be right.
As to the specifics, well, it would be very tiresome to describe the inner union feuds that have been going on and I think a breach of discretion, but they take a good part in what in is happening now.
You can disagree all you like with that strike, hate Air France pilots with you guts ; I do not give a hoot. I however get rather volatile when all of this is based on a bewildering lack of knowledge and information about the airline, it's social, economic and historical context. You of course have all the right in the world not to be interested in which case I'd be most greatfull if you could shutt the f..k up !
As to the CX 49, you can be pretty sure that we wouldn't have let such an appaling farce happen, let alone for one person and I have to say that for all its shortcomings, Air France is not the sort of airline where this would happen, Thank God and we'll do everyting for it to stay that way.
Do not forget that people are taking a risk to and very well know what the consequences would be should things go wrong and they already have with the share plunging 7,5 %. Almost all pilots are shareholders having exchanged part of their salaries against stock in the airline since 1998 .
Who said striking was fun ? We all hate it, but there comes a time where it is the only option you've got having used all others. Backing off with you tail between your legs might an option, doesn't seem to be the chosen one in this case. Should I quote Von Clausewitz or is this going to be a bit much for you ?
Good grief, this is a professional forum talking facts and we're not in Salem burning witches !!

[ORAC]

Wallabie, Lufthansa has just upped it's forecast profit for this year from 400 to 500 million Euros.

['%MAC']

Wallabie,

Hey man, relax a bit. I was just curious as to pecuniary benefits of being an AF pilot. I don’t fly international so I really don’t know what’s going on over there. The NPR reporter had mentioned that AF were one of the best paid in the industry, 153k sure isn’t in that group. But thanks for enlightening me, even if it was a tad acerbic.

[Airbubba]

>>...The NPR reporter had mentioned that AF were one of the best paid in the industry, 153k sure isn’t in that group.<<

Actually, $153 K would be great money most places except the U.S.

Even in these suddenly depressed economic times, we enjoy high wages and low prices compared most other countries. Now, if we can just enjoy continued employment...

[wallabie]

According to your figures we actually need a 257 000 Euros raise.
17 % raise is extremely reasonable.
A tad acerbic ? Just clarifying a few distorted facts.
By the way your media sucks as much as ours by the look of it.
Even Chapter 11 US Air pilots or " on the brink of ... UAL " are much better off than we are.
I'd be interested to read BA, KLM and Luftansa figures on that particular matter.
Simplicity itself:
Senior Long Haul Captain
Short haul Captain
Days on stick

Before income taxes please.

[SOPS]

wallabie, writes like an Australian, talks like an Australian, has a name that is Australian but is an Air France Pilot mmmmmmmmmmmm

[Bre901]

wallabie, writes like an Australian
Well I would not be so sure, don't think that people living dunnunda would spell :
As to the compagny's performance

Looks genuinely froggish to me (et je sais de quoi je parle)

G'day mate ! ;)

[Hand Solo]

Wallabie :

Figures for BA (based on one euro = £0.67)

Most senior long haul captain (24 years) - approx 135000 euros, but the very highest earners (trainers, top seniority) may make close to the AF figure.

Senior long haul captain (20 years) - 115000 euros

Mid-seniority short haul captain - approx 88000 euros.

New FO - 35000 euros

Average short haul working 18/20 days

UK income tax 40%
London now the most expensive city to live in in Europe.
Property prices rising by 20% annually.
Sub-inflation pay rises for several years.
:(

[Nils Taurus Excretus]

Good on you and all your colleagues mate!
It is great to see there are some pilots left in the world with some BALLS!
Ignore the naysayers and the wimps that inhabit these pages until they have a few thousand hours under their belts and finally get their collective heads out of their collectively agreeable a@ses!
For too long we have been pushed and pushed and every time the management fools screw us a little bit harder we sit back and say "it's OK.. all for productivity, blah, sycophantic, wimpish, blah"
STAND UP FOR YOURSELVES YOU SPINELESS GIMPS!
Here are a bunch of pilots who have decided that enough is enough, they have realised that every time you bend over willingly or without a real fight that 'the faceless management suits' have got you cowed just that little bit more. The God of Profit is running roughshod over your right to a fair deal and share of what you earn instead of being funnelled into the pockets of deskbound parasites. It is the workers who make the money for an airline, not the fat cat execs in their shiny grey suits with their shiny grey smiles full of platitudes, profit and loss statements and various other BS.
What a sad state we find oursleves in :(

There was a time when pilots were leaders! So good on the AF crews, solidarity in these days is a thing to be lauded!

Wallabie, All the best and more power to you and your Band of Brothers! Screw them to the wall and make them bleed! It has been the other way around for too long.

[Seriph]

And they tell me you require intelligence to be a pilot.

[Shuttleworth]

Nils Taurus Excretus - ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. WELL SAID

[wallabie]

Hand Solo

Thanks for the information, I take it these figures include per diem. Mine did.
Also bear in mind that you guys retire at 55 and according to what I know, your pension scheme is a lot better than ours. I think our unions figured out that between pay during type rating training and pension, the difference with KLM was round about 500 000 euros over 30 years. Your salaries may be a bit lower but overall you seem to have a more financially rewarding career.
Income taxes ?? Well, we're not exactly known to be a fiscal paradise, exept if you are president or cabinet minister, then the jar is all yours.
We have a lot of toys to pay for : bullet trains, NHS, giving a 70 % raise to cabinet ministers so they don't stick they hand into the coockie jar ( do not laugh, that was the very official reason ) .......etc

Nils,thanks ever so much for kind and graphic support but you will forgive me for restraining myself. I am very much in the screwing business whenever fate decides to be generous with me but just not with grey suit executives, even more so when they are boys ! YUK and triple YUK !
I am however afraid that this stunt, no matter how glamorous it may have looked, will end up with management throwing us a handfull of peanuts and we won't even be able to sack them !

Lufthansa / KLM boys and girls, be good sports and spit those figures out, unless of course the're so juicy that you feel ashamed in these hard times of need! According to Air France benchmarking, KLM senior Captain make more than ours.
By the way, unions and mangement are batting numbers back and forth through the media when the European airlines association is sitting tight on its a..e with all the right benchmarking figures, refusing to release them. It has to be extremely embarrassing for somebody.

SOP, one has to make a living but I'd rather drive the jetcat across the harbour !

[Lodestar]

LH copilot B737 takes home about 3500€ all in!!

No that much compared to AF I would say! KlM as well gives more to its pilots.....Only SAS does worse....

(And SN off course when they still existed but hey....who cares anyway!)

[P22]

wallabie

Hand Solos figures are a little on the low side. The more realistic figures are;

Senior 744 captain; 165,000 euros

Junior 744 captain; 125,000 euros

Senior 744 F/O; 120,000 euros

Junior 744 F/O; 80,000 euros

Senior 744 trainer; 225,000 euros

757 Captain; 105,000 euros

757 F/O; 55,000 euros


The 40% tax rate is only reached after you have earned about 50,000 euros. Up to that figure there is a varable rate, with the average being about 20%

[wallabie]

P22

Thanks a lot for this very interesting piece of information. How come Hand solo was so light handed ???
Knowing KLM is well above what you just gave me, my mouth is watering. Why didn't I learn Dutch !!!???

Lodestar, our baby bus F/O's make about the same. As an F/O, the big break comes when getting on the 400 and a lot of guys chose to stay there to the point where the compagny wants to make short haul experience mandatory if you want to get a long command in order to get the mices off the cheese they're sitting on. Personally I think that sucks big time.

KLM, I keep my ears to the ground and can't hear a thing !

Heathrow Director, will you be around your scope tommorrow around tea time ?

[PrettyBoy]

My dear "maxalt",

You seem to be a lovely fella... I particularily enjoyed your remark about male models. I guess my advice to you would be to not always believe that a handle accurately depicts the person hiding behind it. In this case it appears that mine is bigger than yours, about 7-8 times bigger ... ;)

Not that it matter though, your remarks makes little sense. If employees at BA, LH or the other companies you mentioned did strike as often as they do at AF, I would certainly not be flying with them either. The point is though that they don't and that is the point you missed. It seems that I have plenty of options when deciding to buy a ticket after all! And I persist in claiming that I do not feel much sympathy for their cause since they make their point way too often.

[maxalt]

Hey dude, don't blame me for your dorky name. You chose it.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Pretty Boy,

It is because of the likes of you that airline management is squeezing the last drop of blood out of guys like us. The balance will be redressed but it will take time. Some airlines have suffered due to top-heavy and bureaucratic empires that have been bulit when times have been good. The industry is changing and is re-adjusting but why should we suffer so you can have your cheap (at a loss) fare ?

I don't know what you are doing on this site because you sound like a passenger to me. Air France pilots like everyone else are deserving of an increase in their standard of living. BA's pilots like most of the U.K. industry have suffered in recent years as a result of market conditions and poor management. Bad management decisions result in losses, bad pilot decisions result in crashes. And before you come back with crap about "well wait till things pick up before you threaten strikes," we have done and it hasn't materialised.

If I was you, I'd get back to picking your cheap fares on the internet cos you'll being paying a fair fare in time and I for one can't wait. You're naive if you think low cost operators will keep their fares low once they have driven the competition away. A whole load of Airline R.I.P.s is testament to that.

[Seriph]

Problem is Lima, that if the low cost airlines raise their prices they are no longer low cost and therefore another outfit undercuts them. The cushy days of old are unfortunately over, the major carriers are in big trouble, the bottom line is that you can't hold back the tide.

[PrettyBoy]

"LIMA"

I'm not a pax but a jumbo driver, not that it matters much, the subject remains the same. AF is on strike or threatens to strike every month or so. I'm not against anyone trying to improve their work conditions or their salary (in fact I wish them good luck) but don't expect me to travel with a company that I'm not sure will take me to the destination I bought a ticket for. Twice my family have been stuck somewhere because of this problem. Not fun when traveling with kids I can assure you.

Sure, like most other people I'm looking for a cheap ticket when I need to travel somewhere but I expect the airline to fullfill their end of the bargain once the deal is done whether it being a low-cost operator or not.

And by the way, even pilots travel privately once in a while and our outfit have lousy ID deals so I have to rely on regular tickets. Perhaps I should round up the guys for a weekend strike. ;)

And "maxalt"; I can't help being pretty :p

[wallabie]

Now let me see Dr Watson :
Evidences show lousy ID deal, Jumbo driver ??? Seems to hurt in the back side when sitting too long and talking c..p under the influence of toush pain. Wouldn't it be that you " drive " for a freight compagny based in a little fiscal paradise tucked between Belgium and Germany and known for laundering drug money or one of those run down Air A.....A jumbos snapping flying deals where ever they can ?? If so, I understand your frustration mate .
When was the last time you read a newspaper ?? Must have been unwrapping your fish and chips diner.
A strike every month ?? Good God ! I am shivering at the thought of having blindly crossed the picket line so often.
If you get stranded when the strike was called 2 weeks before it started ( because it is the law ) it either means you have utter faith in the power of negociation or are...................let me choose carefully without being too abrupt....................I give up !! Just watch the bloody tele and like the lot of us.............stay home !
I take it that according to your post, Air France fares being cheaper than your " lousy " ID deals this truly make us a " low cost " airline with first class service !! :D Ryanair, Not so Easy, be afraid, be very afraid !:D

[PrettyBoy]

"wallabie" et al,

Obviously my opinions are stiring a lot of animosity. Where you or I happen to fly is not really important, at least not to me.

I believe that if you would do your math and look in your old newspapers (if they have 'em where you live?...) you would find that the different professions within AF (pilots, C/A's or any other profession required to operate aircrafts) are indeed threatning with strike more often than in any other company. Since most tickets are bought weeks or months before actual departure, a threat of strike during your actual departure date is, at least to me, unnerving.

In any case, I'm sure most readers are getting bored right about now (I know I am) so I let you guys book your tickets with AF. This way we don't have to meet which probably is the best solution anyway. Ta ta

[flyblue]

I don't think AF will cry over losing that one :D :D :D

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

No I don't think they'll be crying either.

Seriph - fair point but I'm not ready just yet to accept an ongoing shafting until the career that cost me £50k to attain is denigrated further to the status of a train driver (because it is not far away now). Good luck to the guys at AF.

[wallabie]

Pretty Boy

Farewell Dearest ! My heart is bleeding. I was getting a real soft spot for you.
Gee, forgot to tell you, I've just been granted that big raise and I can now proudly announce I'm making 400 000 Euros. Claudia Schiffer is dropping by for diner and I'll be spending the week end on Martha's Vineyard should you want to call.
Be a blessed Puppy and ring at the back door ! Claudia is most peculiar about visitors. :D

[Otterman]

Man are we off topic here.

Any comparison between our salaries is interesting. Not much more than that. The money you have left over after taxes, and social premiums is more to the point. And even better what you can do with that money.

There are measures that can compensate the calculations for these effects. PPI (purchasing power index) is one. Or the Big Mac index could be another. It relates your compensation package to what it will do for you at home. Also pension scheme/age would need to be taken into account, and your allowances can add up quickly as well.

In the forum Terms and Endearment there is a poll to see who is interested in such a website. I would support it wholeheartedly if the numbers were verifiable.

In 1995 I remember seeing a benchmark study of salaries where the European carriers were in general pretty close, and the US carriers were a bit higher. The Far east (except Cathay, and JAL) lagged behind. That is probably still the case. Through the EU we will all end up coming together on pay, as fiscal policies become more aligned (Britain who knows), it will make benchmarking a lot easier. When people put their salaries on this site it doesn’t tell me a hell of a lot, can’t verify it.

I fly for KLM; our union has told us our compensation is in line with other European carriers.

Air France is a story in and of itself. It has its own laws by which it operates. Their complex pilot union structure I am sure takes care of its own people, and the state is there to back it up whatever the consequences. It skews the playing field within our part of the world. Great they are putting together a string of nice numbers, but when you look at what they received the last ten years it is no wonder. Back in 1992 they received a cash infusion of $3.6 billion in three stages. That could buy BA twice over at their current stock price. Almost unlimited support for CDG, and the promise of a new airport when CDG fills up. Things that are unthinkable in the rest of Europe. A level playing field is something else. Interesting times.

[Otterman]

At KLM we don’t really talk about each other’s pay. Not the Dutch way I guess. Before you read the numbers please realize that all of us pilots pay around 50% income tax. This includes our social premiums.

Captain B747-300/400, MD-11 ; 150-180,000 euros
Captain B767 ; 135-145,000 euros
Captain B737-300/400/800/900 ; 110-120,000 euros

F/O B747-300/400, MD-11 ; 90-110,000 euros
F/O B767 ; 70-90,000 euros
F/O B737-300/400/800/900 ; 30-65,000 euros
Cruise relief pilot ; same as F/O B737

These amounts include all your allowance.

Our regional pilots pay and conditions are being integrated into our structure as we speak, with matching regional pay rates.

I am in the process of moving from F/O B747 to Capt. 767, after 14 years of service. I can say we are comfortable here in Holland, but the money we make bears no resemblance to the purchasing power that the number would imply in say the USA.

To me it remains a comparison between apples and oranges. Things like how much debt do you need to carry in order to pay for your ab-initio training, pension age, secondary benefits (pass travel), work schedules, amount of holiday days (and how much control you have over these), etc, can have a huge impact of the total package.

Regards,

[wallabie]

Otterman
Interesting post and controversial, I'll get back to that.
Bear in mind that you guys leave at 55 with a much higher pension than ours and that makes a big difference in the package.
You'll be sipping your Daïquiri, sorry Heineken, while I'll still be slaving away.
On top of that let me assure you that our figures are lower than yours, even Air France agrees to that which makes it hard evidence !:)
for once
Just like Dutch pilots french pilots never talk about their salaries when together.............. only behind one another's back.
As to the governement bending ( as a figure of speach needless to say :) to our whim, that is plain fairy tale and trust me it really gets ugly.
On the other hand I totally agree with the fact that in many other ways Air France gets support like CDG extension matching Air France expension plans...................and that's great mate because I'd rather work for an expending airline, that's about the surest way I have to see my salary grow when flying larger aircrafts.
I have never heard or seen the Dutch government not take care of KLM in some ways or another and that applies to any major airline around the world. The 2 faced champions being the yanks ready to poor barrels of $ when National Interest is at stake whatever shape or form.
BA's debt was plainly written off by our good Lady Baroness Thatcher which really matches the funding Air France got from its then major shareholder who hadn't spent a dime in it in more than a decade. This settled the account for good under the watchfull eye of Leon Brittan.
What's wrong with all that ? The darwinian view of survival of the fittest is in general favoured by the very one who would love a slice of the pudding and scream when the chop lands on their neck.
I am sorry to disagree with you but it's only salary we should be concerned with. Tax system, social benefit .........etc are an election issue. I'm not complaining about taxes but about salary and that's Air France direct business. Actually truthfully, the salary is ok, it's our pension that sucks BIG time and this is where we would like to see a MAJOR improvement.
I was talking with a mate of mine yesterday who was ex Air Inter. Our current chairman was the head of Air Inter when they started a super saver plan where the compagny was chipping in big time. A lot more cost effective as they don't have to pay social security etc ......... that come on top of the salary.
Result ? This thing is still going on for the ex Air Inter fellows and the 2 of us will have a difference of 15000 Euros a year after retirement. Of course I am wrenched with jealousy !
As to the complexity of our union structure, there is nothing complex about it. It is just a bloody mess with 5 different unions pulling in every direction. What's so complex about that ?Simplicity itself !:D