Problem with CFI, need help, please.

[LAWings]

Where do I start...

First, I hope this post isn't out of category or otherwise misplaced, but I feel I'm in trouble and need help. I'm a student pilot, 59 hours toward PPL, and I found and joined this forum for the sole purpose of asking for help. (Although it looks like a great place to learn and share, later.) I don't know how else to do this but to try to debrief openly to people who do this every day, and to try to gain insight from your observations and comments. This may be lengthy, let me say that I will be deeply appreciative for any light you guys can shed on this. I want to be a professional at this, and a very safe one.

I am 60 years old, male, passed the third class medical but could easily have breezed through first. I'm very blessed physically, very fit, mentally sharp. I've been memorizing scripts for 20+ years so my memory seems great. I've been studying the Sportys ground school for over a year, and could pass the written, easily. (I score routinely 98-100 on the practice tests) If I have a weakness it's with rapid mental math calculation. (To give you an idea of my approach to things, I've now reenrolled in university and am majoring in mathematics.) I have loved aviation all my life, but with family, career, the time for me to do this was never quite right, but the day finally came, and I began my training ten months ago. I am on my second flight instructor, and I'm trying to figure out if there's a problem with me, or with this process. Or, if perhaps this sort of is the process.

My first 40 hours were with a 23-year-old recent graduate from an aviation university. I felt I couldn't do better than someone with a bachelor's degree in this, and he was a great young man. The problem was however, I did not know this at the time but I was one of his first, if not his first student. ( I feel a little foolish that I never thought to ask. He was with a very established school in this area and I went with their reputation without doing much background into the instructor himself.) After my hours kept adding up and i wasnt soloing, I began to wonder if he was trying to sort of figure out the process with me. I absolutely do not hold that against him, we all have to start somewhere and I even held on a little while to try to help him out. But I began to recognize that there was a maturity mismatch and I simply lost confidence in him. He was having significant difficulty letting go of the yoke and letting me fly the airplane. I also need to add that he is on an ATP track and is building hours. Which again, I dont hold against him, we all are, but after $12,000+ and many flights, I added it up and I think I managed to land the airplane completely without him touching the yoke, twice. I should also add at this point that I have a flight simulator in my house and have been flying Microsoft Flight Sim for I think around 10 years. It's not a Red Bird but it's pretty darn good. So I had a gentle but final conversation with him, and began looking for another instructor.

I began looking for someone older and with more hours. I found someone 10 years older than I am , with 12,000 plus hours, 5,000 of which are as a flight instructor. ATP qualified, flew for United for a while. CFII, very well known, you just don't get more qualified than this guy. We hit it off extremely well, I like him very much, and it was an incredibly pleasant beginning. He assessed my ability very quickly, and the very first time we flew together, I landed the plane by myself nine times. I spent 20 hours with him and was about to solo the same week that the problem occurred. We actually became quite good friends, it seemed. And yet somehow at a certain point, there seemed to begin to be a type of competitiveness between us and It ultimately ended up with us having a disagreement in the air and I put the plane on the ground, and things are at a standstill. The kinds of comments that he made on the way out to the run up sort of made me feel like there was something kind of personal between us and I began to feel uncomfortable. He commented that I was listening to ATIS too much. (admittedly I do like to listen to it several times to make sure I have a good mental picture) I also had learned a practice from the first school I used, where we would lay the tie down chains facing aft on the ramp. It's very orderly and consistent. With this new instructor, he would simply drop the chains where they were, and on this particular flight, in doing my checklist, going around the entire airplane to the side that he had untied, I picked up the chain from where he had dropped it and laid it in place as I normally would on the other side. And I think it irritated him. I also am a big fan of the checklist. I just don't feel like I'm at the place where I have a natural flow and coming from one school to another school, things are different and I just don't feel comfortable being off the checklist yet. And the thing is, they often don't have checklists in the planes at all. I had to come up with my own. It makes me uncomfortable. I don't like it. I know transitioning from the checklist to a sort of "flow" is common, but i just dont feel comfortable with that yet. This guy has basically a million hours and I know has probably more experience that I'm ever going to have time in life left to accumulate, and the man is a freakin legend around here, and I truly like him a great deal as a personal friend, but I'm learning all of this stuff in my Sportys ground school, at the former school (which honestly I now regret leaving, sorely), and just general basic SOP from my time in the military that seems to conflict with what i see him doing. This man who has flown everything but a flying saucer makes me feel extremely uneasy.

There's more. A lot more. But am i just so green that I'm not getting it? I am someone who does complicated and challenging things well. But this whole thing just feels random and disorganized.

Anyway, so here I am, 59 hours, again yet to solo, i think i could land a 150 on a carrier with a good headwind, and yet I think I'm going to have start all over again.

I am completely open to any insights or critiques. I just want to get my wings, man.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Tough story. Clearly something's gone wrong here. At 60 you aren't going to learn as somebody in their teens or twenties, but 60hrs to solo clearly indicates a problem.

I'm British, but have flown with a bunch of American schools and hold US licences, so can relate somewhat to the differences that go on in America, or anywhere else. Approaches and standards can vary a lot between instructors and schools, and the sheer size of the USA, means that things vary quite a lot.

Firstly there's something of a disconnect between theory and practice in flying: you need to learn and pass the written, but the practicalities are much more important and often have quite different emphasis (not contradictions, just emphasis). Secondly, there isn't a single best way to do things - what you're clearly seeing here is two extremes, and I recognise both of them. The young fellow is doing things "by the book" he learned at his aviation university; the older fellow is doing things in a more practiced and intuitive way that relies upon following a situation and the aeroplane. Both approaches have merit - personally I'm closer to the young chap (despite being closer in age to the older chap) but I've flown with some fantastically capable pilots who followed the intuitive approach.

What I think that you do need to accept in any flying environment, is that having arrived in that place - you must do it their way. Observe it, learn it. Also for each lesson - prepare. Airborne checks, or flow drills - learn them. There will be a recommended book for each school - the last school I flew with in the USA favoured the ASA guides, although left to my own devices I like Rod Machado's online material better, and in reality I used a combination of them - learn the lessons before turning up. This lack of preparation in my experience as an instructor is students' consistent biggest failing.

Another thing can be consistency and time of day. I find that students who leave it more than a week between lessons often forget much of what they learned and basically fail to move forwards, and everybody learns better in the morning than the afternoon.

So, for what it's worth:-

- Book 2 lessons a week, ideally in the mornings.
- Do things EXACTLY as your instructor does it. By all means ask for explanations, but don't contradict them.
- Make sure you've read everything available to prepare for each lesson
- Don't try to manage your own training progress, it's what a CFI is trained to do.

I'd also say, step away from the PC based flight sim. They're pretty good for practicing stuff you already know how to do, but people who start on the sim and teach themselves very often teach themselves very poor habits that take longer to train-out than if they'd never been near the sim in the first place.

G

[Whopity]

I think the problem is with the student! The length of your post says it all, you are obsessed with all the wrong things. If you want to learn to fly an aeroplane just do what the instructor shows you. Now there lies a possible problem, you are in the USA and the method of teaching is totally different to the method we use in the UK and Europe. We teach by building blocks where one exercise leads to the next and progress can be easily seen. The FAA method of teaching is more akin to a combination of coaching and osmosis, if you do something enough times somerthing should sink in. You are being introduced to things that are too advanced for the level you are at. Not everyone can fly an aircraft and it has nothing to do with intelligence. You have reached 59 hours; somebody should have told you something by now. If you keep plodding away you may crack it but will you be a safe pilot.
Get an instructor who you don't know to do an honest assessment, don't bother with his life story or yours, just tell him you have done x-hours, are you wasting your time.

[V_2]

Get an instructor who you don't know to do an honest assessment, don't bother with his life story or yours, just tell him you have done x-hours, are you wasting your time. good advice. There’s two independent instructors that havnt sent you solo. There’s likely something underlying and you need someone, perhaps without any “baggage” and impartiality to explain what that is.

don’t think I ever got the ATIS pre solo. If you are working the circuit with an instructor look out the window for the weather. ATC will give you the wind, or any other information if you need it. You aint 150nm away at 35000ft with landing speeds to calculate

[cavuman1]

I earned my PPSEL in 1977, trained by a 28,000-hour CFI who became a family friend. I soloed after twelve hours and passed my check ride at forty hours. My wife began her flight training in 2006 at a different place with a different instructor. She loved the experience, but even after nearly twenty hours of dual instruction, she was unable to execute a decent landing. (She did not, however, bend the airframe and she and her instructor always walked away.) Long story short, she abandoned her training. It turned out that she was suffering from undiagnosed Multiple Sclerosis which had robbed her of binocular vision. Without the visual dynamics of convergence and binocular rivalry, she had zero depth perception! Several years later, after a scary episode of facial paralysis, she received the confirmatory diagnosis. So, we thought, that explains everything! We had blamed her CFI for poor instruction when, in fact, her visual dysfunction was at fault.

I certainly don't mean to imply that you have a neurological disorder, LAWings, and I wish you success in your laudable goal to join the Brotherhood of the Sky. Remember: Genius is nothing; Persistence is all. Take a break from Flight Simulator, and when you find an instructor who's a good fit, spend most of your time aloft with your eyes out of the cockpit. After all, that's how the birds do it!

- Ed

[LAWings]

Thank you, all. There's a lot to think about, here.
some added info; we are all instructed to get ATIS. (both schools. I assume it's FAA SOP here.) I train at the busiest GA airport in the world, and we're all required handle comms with ATC, get ATIS, etc. And I flew every day except weekends.

I appreciate the advice. And thank you Ed, I assure you I will not be quitting. It's not something I do.

[fly_webbv2]

So 59 hours and haven't solo'ed. Flying is not a race it's about building experiences and developing judgement and skills. Ease off, do as others have said get an assessment from an independent instructor, not about what's been done but about where you are now and start again. Find a way to manage with your emotional intelligence. Flying is a motor skill coupled with airmanship and situational awareness. It's not a game of egos. Good luck,

[Genghis the Engineer]

Plenty of airports around the world require anybody to get the ATIS before moving, and nothing wrong with any pilot listening to it several times to make sure that they didn't miss anything. I think that's a complete non issue.

Being at an ultra busy airport might be. I'm guessing Long Beach? Honestly that place would overwhelm anybody.

G

[Fl1ingfrog]

There can be nothing more destructive to their learning than a student who attempts to direct the training. They can be impossible to teach effectively with such a battle to first overcome. I doubt that I have ever taught two people the same because people are so very different. The instructor needs to adapt to each students learning skills by discovery however, and this is my point, it is as important for the student to know how to learn too. Learning requires as much a level of skill and concentration as teaching.

Messing about on flight simulators when unqualified is not a good idea. Concentrate on the elements of the course that you are currently learning. Restrict your reading to relevance and try to resist reading too far ahead. Curiosity can be unhelpful - it killed the cat after all. We each have a personal learning rate and too many lessons a week can be too much and the training can race ahead; slow down perhaps just two a week spread as much as possible.

Your current instructor sounds perfect. Ex professional pilots who have the experience that you describe are gold dust. They are still prepared to climb into a light aircraft with a struggling 60 year old PPL student because they have never lost their love of flying. DON'T waste the opportunity.

[SWBKCB]

I also am a big fan of the checklist. I just don't feel like I'm at the place where I have a natural flow and coming from one school to another school, things are different and I just don't feel comfortable being off the checklist yet. And the thing is, they often don't have checklists in the planes at all. I had to come up with my own. It makes me uncomfortable. I don't like it. I know transitioning from the checklist to a sort of "flow" is common, but i just dont feel comfortable with that yet.

I'm a bit surprised by this - no checklists?

[EXDAC]

I began looking for someone older and with more hours. I found someone 10 years older than I am , with 12,000 plus hours, 5,000 of which are as a flight instructor. ATP qualified, flew for United for a while. CFII, very well known, you just don't get more qualified than this guy. We hit it off extremely well, I like him very much, and it was an incredibly pleasant beginning. He assessed my ability very quickly, and the very first time we flew together, I landed the plane by myself nine times. I spent 20 hours with him and was about to solo the same week that the problem occurred.

I picked this part out of your very long post. Exactly what were you doing in all the flights betweeen the first one with nine landings and accumulating 20 hours with this instructor?

[LAWings]

I'm a bit surprised by this - no checklists?
No sir, not always. When there was one, I would sometimes find it wadded up under a seat. And sometimes it's not, or at least doesn't seem to be, for the specific airplane bein flown. In fact, I brought a copy from my original school with me (personal copy printed from pdf. The ones at the school were laminated and remained with each aircraft.), and he said "Wow that's pretty nice. You can use that one."
I was for a C172S G1000. The plane we were flying was a C172R.

[EXDAC]

No sir, not always. When there was one, I would sometimes find it wadded up under a seat. And sometimes it's not, or at least doesn't seem to be, for the specific airplane bein flown. In fact, I brought a copy from my original school with me (personal copy printed from pdf. The ones at the school were laminated and remained with each aircraft.), and he said "Wow that's pretty nice. You can use that one."
I was for a C172S G1000. The plane we were flying was a C172R.

Have you read the ACS? Has your instuctor read the ACS? You will not pass an FAA check ride without conspicuous use of a written checklist.

ref https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/training_testing/testing/acs/private_airplane_acs_change_1.pdf

There is no issue with using flows to configure the aircraft but if you don't follow up with a checklist you will fail. Of course you don't refer to a checklist if the instructor asks you to climb, descend, speed up, slow down, but you do need to for pre-flight inspection, before start, after start, before takeoff, after takeoff. before landing, before shutdown, after shutdown, and for emergencies. With experience in a non-complex aircraft almost all of these can be handled by mnemonics and/or flows but that will not work for an FAA checkride.

Edit to add -

There is a big difference between teaching someone to fly competently and teaching someone to pass a checkride. Some instructors are good at one and some good at the other. You need an instructor who is good at both.

[LAWings]

I picked this part out of your very long post. Exactly what were you doing in all the flights betweeen the first one with nine landings and accumulating 20 hours with this instructor?
He asked me to demonstrate the skills and procedures that i had learned at the previous school: takeoff, Vy climbout, pattern work, radio work with ATC (not my most comfortable skill, admittedly), pwr on/pwr off stalls, slow flight, steep turns, turns around a point, S turns, all of which he said "You certainly have no problems with your skills. I'm satisfied you can solo soon." And then we worked on a ton of touch and gos, night landings, crosswind landings, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out. A day or maybe two before the breakdown, he told me "You know you're going to make a good pilot, right?" It was a big day for me. This man is someone I respect, and not anyone to blow sunshine up your ass. I said "Yessir, I do know, but my opinion doesn't much matter. But your saying it means a great deal."

A day or two later the wheels fell off.

And listen... I'm sorry if my post is longer than some would have preferred. I'm trying to describe a potentially dangerous sitiation with details and also trying to describe as much as I can from his perspective also. Plus... every single person on this forum, and at my flight school, including the receptionist, knows more about flying than I do. I'm asking for help.

I didn't feel it was exactly fair to just come on here and say "Hey I've got this CFI who's an asshole. What should I do about it?" Because that's not any information at all.

I came of my own volition into a room full of CFIs who do this for a living, because I really want to diagnose and deal with this accurately, whether it's me, him, or both. I'm going to be a CFI or a CFII in about a year so I want to deal with it the best I can. And someday I may run into a student who's going to need help with something similar.

[LAWings]

Have you read the ACS? Has your instuctor read the ACS? You will not pass an FAA check ride without conspicuous use of a written checklist.

ref

(removed link)

There is no issue with using flows to configure the aircraft but if you don't follow up with a checklist you will fail. Of course you don't refer to a checklist if the instructor asks you to climb, descend, speed up, slow down, but you do need to for pre-flight inspection, before start, after start, before takeoff, after takeoff. before landing, before shutdown, after shutdown, and for emergencies. With experience in a non-complex aircraft almost all of these can be handled by mnemonics and/or flows but that will not work for an FAA checkride.

Edit to add -

There is a big difference between teaching someone to fly competently and teaching someone to pass a checkride. Some instructors are good at one and some good at the other. You need an instructor who is good at both.
Yes sir, I have read the ACS, which is precisely why I am asking all of these questions.

The thing is, sure, I want to pass my checkride, but I am going to have my family in the plane with me at some point, and eventually, students and the paying public in some form. I also hope to do search and rescue with CAP. I have absolutely zero interest in learning bare minimums.

[LAWings]

There can be nothing more destructive to their learning than a student who attempts to direct the training. They can be impossible to teach effectively with such a battle to first overcome. I doubt that I have ever taught two people the same because people are so very different. The instructor needs to adapt to each students learning skills by discovery however, and this is my point, it is as important for the student to know how to learn too. Learning requires as much a level of skill and concentration as teaching.

Messing about on flight simulators when unqualified is not a good idea. Concentrate on the elements of the course that you are currently learning. Restrict your reading to relevance and try to resist reading too far ahead. Curiosity can be unhelpful - it killed the cat after all. We each have a personal learning rate and too many lessons a week can be too much and the training can race ahead; slow down perhaps just two a week spread as much as possible.

Your current instructor sounds perfect. Ex professional pilots who have the experience that you describe are gold dust. They are still prepared to climb into a light aircraft with a struggling 60 year old PPL student because they have never lost their love of flying. DON'T waste the opportunity.

I think you may have just nailed it. Thank you.

I'm older than most students, and in my world, I am in charge in pretty much every respect. I spend all day solving problems and negotiating.

I have a really, really, hard time turning it off.

Okay. I feel like I may have at least a little bit of a direction to go, now.

Man, 60 years old and still learning humility. Lord, help me.

[Bosi72]

/*
The problem was however, I did not know this at the time but I was one of his first, if not his first student. ( I feel a little foolish that I never thought to ask. He was with a very established school in this area and I went with their reputation without doing much background into the instructor himself.)
*/

I disagree that was the problem.
Every school has a Syllabus prescribed by the authority and instructor's job is to follow it and transfer the knowledge to the student. Solo standard for majority students is achieved around 15hours.

/*
After my hours kept adding up and i wasnt soloing,
*/

This is school's problem for not offering either another instructor, or advising that they cannot teach you.


/*
I began to wonder if he was trying to sort of figure out the process with me.
*/

Even experienced million hours instructor clearly struggled to figure out the process with you. Nothing wrong with young pilots wanting to progress to airlines.

Same as with University or any other educational institution, their job is to teach you, your job is to study and learn.
​​​​​
Lot's of things in aviation is about personal attitude, which I believe you have to work on.
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[LAWings]

/*
The problem was however, I did not know this at the time but I was one of his first, if not his first student. ( I feel a little foolish that I never thought to ask. He was with a very established school in this area and I went with their reputation without doing much background into the instructor himself.)
*/

I disagree that was the problem.
Every school has a Syllabus prescribed by the authority and instructor's job is to follow it and transfer the knowledge to the student. Solo standard for majority students is achieved around 15hours.

/*
After my hours kept adding up and i wasnt soloing,
*/

This is school's problem for not offering either another instructor, or advising that they cannot teach you.


/*
I began to wonder if he was trying to sort of figure out the process with me.
*/

Even experienced million hours instructor clearly struggled to figure out the process with you. Nothing wrong with young pilots wanting to progress to airlines.

Same as with University or any other educational institution, their job is to teach you, your job is to study and learn.
​​​​​
Lot's of things in aviation is about personal attitude, which I believe you have to work on.
​​​​​
​​​​
​​​​​
Yep. It sure seems so.

Others have suggested i start afresh with a new instructor, put myself in his hands completely. Is that your advice, also?

[EXDAC]

He asked me to demonstrate the skills and procedures that i had learned at the previous school: takeoff, Vy climbout, pattern work, radio work with ATC (not my most comfortable skill, admittedly), pwr on/pwr off stalls, slow flight, steep turns, turns around a point, S turns, all of which he said "You certainly have no problems with your skills. I'm satisfied you can solo soon." And then we worked on a ton of touch and gos, night landings, crosswind landings, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out. A day or maybe two before the breakdown, he told me "You know you're going to make a good pilot, right?" It was a big day for me. This man is someone I respect, and not anyone to blow sunshine up your ass. I said "Yessir, I do know, but my opinion doesn't much matter. But your saying it means a great deal."

Sorry, but I still do not understand why you spent 20 hours demonstrating your skills to his satisfaction but he did not solo you. You must be missing something out.

Your idea that you will be a CFII in a year but have about 60 hours of instruction and not gone solo yet may be quite informative.

[LAWings]

Sorry, but I still do not understand why you spent 20 hours demonstrating your skills to his satisfaction but he did not solo you. You must be missing something out.

Your idea that you will be a CFII in a year but have about 60 hours of instruction and not gone solo yet may be quite informative.

Yes, it is. Thank you for your honest appraisal.

[sycamore]

LAW, i can`t help but think there is a background `innuendo` here,the way you say `personal friend`,and,`felt uncomfortable`, `something more personal between us`..,disagreement in flight`..Would this fall into the `sexual advance,`hand-on-knee` area...? Rejection,etc...?If so,then you are right to stop there.If not,then I do apologise for suggesting such a situation..

However,I would think that,if your instructor felt you were ready for solo,then `over here` we would normally arrange for a different instructor to do a `check-ride`as an independent observer that you are `good to-go` solo,unless the original instructor has that qualification. It should not be a `pass/fail`,more a check that the instructor has `done a good job`,or there are some things that `need tidying-up`.

Also,does/did your instructor(S) do `write-ups` reports an each sortie and `debrief you on each sortie..?
Do you/have you access to those reports to see what is written is what you did/did not do,an accurate assessment..? Why were you doing night-flying,...?

As others here have said,leave the simulator until later,when you are flying X-country sorties.Try to be relaxed,look out,enjoy the view,and if you feel `let down` at the present school,then find one somewhere quieter..
You should be able to buy a `standardised `checklist for 150/172,and if you use a `tablet/mobile` on your knee,transfer the checklists to it;easier/quicker than turning pages,but,still carry the real one...

[MrAverage]

In my earlier flying journey I got to know a guy who took 120 hours to solo. A couple of years after he got his license he was an instructor. Somehow I got my own private inside the minimum required hours but, it took me several years to learn what he had learnt in those 120. (In those early days I could only afford 25 hours a year) Not just learning about flying, but perhaps more about myself and my shortcomings and then overcoming my severe lack of confidence, to slowly realize I could actually progress to more advanced flying. In fact, the toughest part was writing the Commercial Exams, but all of it was only possible because I had the extreme good fortune to be trained and encouraged by the best every step of the way. I endeavour to give the same back to all who fly at my modest flying club/flight school.to this day.

Don't forget you can P.M. any forum members with silly questions, although you might get the odd silly answer.................

[MrAverage]

Sycamore!

Night training is included in the FAA private course, it's only an option here.

[Procrastinus]

He asked me to demonstrate the skills and procedures that i had learned at the previous school: takeoff, Vy climbout, pattern work, radio work with ATC (not my most comfortable skill, admittedly), pwr on/pwr off stalls, slow flight, steep turns, turns around a point, S turns, all of which he said "You certainly have no problems with your skills. I'm satisfied you can solo soon." And then we worked on a ton of touch and gos, night landings, crosswind landings, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out


For heaven's sake - all I require to send a student first solo is three, consecutive, safe arrivals. Crosswind and night all come after

[sycamore]

Mr A, thank you,however,unless you just go for a `bumble to see the lights`,it`s wasted time IMHO...

EDIT; unless it`something like my ;`Tiger in the dark-ish`-AV History &Nost,23 Dec 2023`...

[EXDAC]

Sycamore!

Night training is included in the FAA private course, it's only an option here.

Sure, it is but it is not a requirement for a day supervised solo flight. To send a student solo an FAA instructor needs to be satisfied that the student can safely and competently handle the conditions that exist at the time the solo is authorized. There is also a requirement to complete a pre-solo knowledge test. Ref 14 CFR 61.87.

Some instructors seem to want to prepare the student for the flight test before solo. I see the solo as a confidence building milestone that both the instructor and student should want to reach as early as can be done safely.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I see the solo as a confidence building milestone that both the instructor and student should want to reach as early as can be done safely.

I agree, and I'm pretty sure that every instructor's guide I've ever read says roughly the same thing.

G

[sycamore]

The cynic might suggest it keeps the $$$$ rolling in for the Company/IP....

[BigEndBob]

Might it be better to find yet another instructor at a quiet airfield. Being ATP qualified doesn't always equate to someone with the confidence to send someone solo.
I had in the 70's old Spitfire pilots teach me. Looking back most wasn't good, like no briefings. Good job i was self motivated to learn.
I have had quite academic students at 60, but there was a niggling feeling something could go wrong on their own.
Age is not a barrier for solo, i had a 80 year old i could have sent solo. His landings were perfect, but what if engine malfunctioned. Would he have the speed of mind to deal with it. I never took the chance, he was happy flying dual just for fun.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The first solo is an artifact of WW 2 training gates. You had X hours to meet the gate, if you did not you washed out. Given the throughput required an up or out system was required. There was also a high tolerance for bent training aircraft and even dead students.

However flying schools are no longer in the business of saving the world from evil dictators. Personally I think far too much emphasis is placed on the first solo and the idea the sooner the student solo’s the better. In my flying instructing career I have found that the time to solo for my students has gone up but the time to PPL has gone done with a marked increase in flight test scores. (My last 10 PPL’s all scored in the top 20% of the national totals)

This is because I realized that the most important part of the PPL was properly teaching the foundation flight maneuvers. My students didn’t spend a lot of time in the circuit because they had very sold flying skills already and all I had to teach was the go around, the flare and the touchdown.

Finally I think it is professional malpractice if the instructor has not ensured the first solo student can’t handle an engine failure, a change of runways, a comm failure, and a diversion to a nearby airport if the home field becomes unavailable while they are the circuit. (Note, I taught at a busy controlled airport with 3 runways)

[EXDAC]

Finally I think it is professional malpractice if the instructor has not ensured the first solo student can’t handle an engine failure, a change of runways, a comm failure, and a diversion to a nearby airport if the home field becomes unavailable while they are the circuit. (Note, I taught at a busy controlled airport with 3 runways)

Did you mean "can handle an engine failure........."?

[B2N2]

Alright,

All Ppruners stop rehashing their experiences from the ‘60-ies
Checklists are required by the FAA, the use of an appropriate one is tested on your checkride.
Appropriate means for the make, model, type and tail number
Flows are perfectly acceptable IF THEY ARE BACKED UP WITH A CHECKLIST.
Which means you can do a flow then take the checklist and verify you’ve done everything. It’s a checklist not a do-list.
Don’t focus on irrelevant things. Different strokes different folks. I used to roll up the tie down ropes to minimize trip hazard or catching a rope with the prop. That is a technique and by no means a procedure.
I am a 15,000 hr airline pilot and still have my CFI, this does not garantee in any shape or form that I am a better instructor than a green one who just finished his or her training. My airline experience is IRRELEVANT.
Don’t be afraid to sit down your instructor and ask what is wrong.
Memorization only works to a certain extend with physical skills. There is definitely a monkey see monkey do component and I’m not being facetious.
the FAA system of training is just as much based on building blocks as the (apparently ever superior) UK system.
Flying (at least the physical aspect) is no more difficult then riding a motorcycle or driving a car. There is a chance you are massively overthinking things.


Best of luck to you.

[Fl1ingfrog]

I realized that the most important part of the PPL was properly teaching the foundation flight maneuvers. My students didn’t spend a lot of time in the circuit because they had very sold flying skills already and all I had to teach was the go around, the flare and the touchdown.


​​​​​​​Totally agree!

[rudestuff]

Did you mean "can handle an engine failure........."?
A triple negative, well spotted.

[Uplinker]

My sympathy to the OP. I am not a CFI, but I have some guesses.

a) Worrying about how tie-down chains are laid out, and listening to ATIS multiple times might point towards OCD - obsessive compulsive disorder. This might translate into you spending too much time when airborne concentrating on certain relatively minor tasks, and not enough time on other important ones.

b) Your age and your stated 'being in charge' attitude suggest there might be an uncomfortable authority gradient in the cockpit. Your instructors might find you difficult to get on with - or unusual - and they might have the impression that you think you know more than you actually do and they might be nervous about your actual knowledge and ability.

c) You might have mild Asperger's syndrome, which could result in being perfectly functional, competent and more than averagely intelligent, but also means you don't make 'normal' eye contact for example, or do not react 'normally' to social interactions, which might be making your instructors uncertain about you.

~ ~ ~

a) Listen to the ATIS once and write it down on your knee board, then you can go back to flying the 'plane and glance at the written ATIS whenever you want to. Develop a short-hand way of writing down the ATIS. I write it in the same format as the METARs, e.g. 240/10G15 10+ F020 B040 -RA 22/20 TEMPO +RA etc.(I realise a PPL probably would not be flying in that particular weather !).
"Correcting" a CFI's actions, e.g. pulling out the tie-down chains he left in a heap will probably annoy them. (It's untidy, but not a safety issue).

c). I think I might have suffered this in my airline career. I was competent and confident, but I also knew that I wasn't - and never would be - the next Chuck Yeager or the future base Captain. I was fully aware that I was not the best but I might have given the wrong impression to my instructors.
One early day in my PPL training; CFI Craig was trying to see how much I actually knew about engine failure procedures, and if I really knew what to do. I was presumably coming across as too casual or overconfident, and he presumably did not think I was "getting it", so he took control, and stopped the engine, (and pitched up momentarily to stop the propellor), (we were at a safe height). Then he handed the aircraft back and said "Right; you have control, what are you going to do ?".............
NOW my brain kicked-in and I selected carb heat, the best glide speed, looked for a field, Size, Shape, Slope, Shade, etc, changed fuel tanks, switched on the electric pump, then looked towards the runway and saw we could get in safely with a glide approach, etc. etc. Then he knew that I did really know.

b) It will not be easy, but I would ask for a few minutes with your instructors in a quiet room and ask them straight, but nicely and politely, with a smile on your face; "what is it about me that is making you nervous or uncomfortable? Please tell me truthfully and don't worry about hurting my feelings, because whatever it is, I want to change it".

Good luck :ok: (I ended up flying Airbus A330s long-haul).
.

[B2N2]

Technique - ways to do certain things to make your life easier and to achieve a certain outcome

Procedure - something that must be done in order to achieve the desired result. If a procedure requires a certain order then it must be done that way.
If it does not require a certain order then generally a technique is used to comply with the procedure.

Lots of people confuse the two, even instructors. They may have a favorite technique which they teach as procedure.

The airplane is a very poor classroom, any questions and misconceptions must be dealt with (mostly) on the ground
Anything new to be covered during the next flight must be discussed on the ground prior.

Example:
For the next lesson please read Chapter 16-18 of your training manual, write down any questions. We will do a groundschool lesson on the subjects before our next flight.

Wax in wax out, multiple facets of learning.
You read about it, watch a video or two online, think about it, read about it again.
Groundschool with relevant training aids, instructor covers the material you’ve read already, discussing your questions and instructor will ask some questions to determine understanding. Then you brief the next flight and fly the brief.
There’s obviously always room for a little impromptu items during the flight but it should not be at the expense of the briefed lesson.

[GgW]

I think the problem is with the student! The length of your post says it all, you are obsessed with all the wrong things. If you want to learn to fly an aeroplane just do what the instructor shows you

I think Whopity have hit the nail on its head here!

To the OP: Why don't you put your training on hold for a few month's and maybe go and do something completely different. I suggest go and fly gliders and don't continue with your training until you have gone at least solo in gliders. Flying an aircraft(basic training aircraft i.e. PA28, C172 etc) is not a very difficult thing to do…….

Change the environment, hopefully to reset the thinking process also….

[GgW]

The airplane is a very poor classroom

Interesting point…..😂 but what if you are a visual learner, like me.

[EXDAC]

If everyone started in gliders, then tailwheel airplanes, the understanding of the airmass we fly in and the basics of aircraft control would be at a far higher standard than is typically seen in airplane pilots.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Interesting point…..😂 but what if you are a visual learner, like me.
The bulk of learning should be done out of the aeroplane, with slides, white/blackboard presentations, videos, dialogue with your instructor in briefings.

The flying part is then to consolidate that, ensure it sticks and can be applied, and then move on.

Books are a lousy way to learn anything, just a good way to store knowledge. I don't encourage my students to use books as their main source of learning, albeit that they are a vital part of the mix.

G

[B2N2]

The bulk of learning should be done out of the aeroplane, with slides, white/blackboard presentations, videos, dialogue with your instructor in briefings.

The flying part is then to consolidate that, ensure it sticks and can be applied, and then move on.

Books are a lousy way to learn anything, just a good way to store knowledge. I don't encourage my students to use books as their main source of learning, albeit that they are a vital part of the mix.

G

^^^ This ^^^

Learning is mostly done outside the airplane, practice is mostly done inside the airplane.
Thousands of teaching techniques.
Sometimes I’d have a student walk the traffic pattern in the parking lot and make all the appropriate radio calls, towered or non-towered.

[Fl1ingfrog]

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer
The bulk of learning should be done out of the aeroplane, with slides, white/blackboard presentations, videos, dialogue with your instructor in briefings.
The flying part is then to consolidate that, ensure it sticks and can be applied, and then move on.
Books are a lousy way to learn anything, just a good way to store knowledge. I don't encourage my students to use books as their main source of learning, albeit that they are a vital part of the mix.


Too much of an over simplification in my view Genghis. For some people it is best to learn by doing and then to consolidate from ground study when the words will have greater meaning. A very short and to the point pre-flight briefing will enhance the lesson for most: this is what we are going to do, how we are going to do it and finally the aim. Lawings could be someone who continuously wants to race ahead and enjoys study but is prone to running before he can walk and unwitting skips important elements. I do not allow my students to move onto Ex 6 until they demonstrate a grip on the effects of controls (primary and further), effects of speed and power. Until they do you might as well be talking Chinese.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The vast majority of published pedagogical research agrees with myself and B2N2 with regard to learning, then reinforcing in the air. You're of-course absolutely right that subsequent post-flight consolidation on the ground is *also* essential.

G

[fitliker]

One of the first questions I ask a student is why do you want to learn how to fly ? Career or fun ?
Do you want to rent an aircraft or buy ?
Knowing the goals helps .
The focus on solo can take away the more important comfort level targets . How comfortable are you flying for coffee at another airport ?
It is far more important to achieve comfort in the safe use of the aircraft than artificial progress markers .
If I was supervising this training, I might be concerned that your questions were not answered in the post flight debriefing. Allowing you to be better prepared for the next pre-flight briefing .
As Aristotle once observed , ask the right question get the right answer .

[DAHenriques]

Reading over your issue I find multiple areas that could use a detailed airing involving both you and your instructors.
This considered I believe I can tell you that you will seldom find a single answer on a forum like this one that if implemented solves the issue.
I could sit here and go on and on addressing specific aspects of your problem but I doubt that would reveal any positive result.
What I have done here is include some data based on years of experience teaching instructors to instruct properly that if read and studied just might point you in a positive direction and give you some idea of what to expect from a flight instructor who is doing the job correctly.
By approaching the problem from this direction and mentally linking this data to your issues there is a chance the information might provide a positive result.
Anyway.........it's a shot across the bow that might address the meat involved with your problem.
Best of luck BTW. I hope you manage to get things under control.
Dudley Henriques

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vDLMJ3fXJP6lKx8EpSxocKJbwey944WD/view?usp=drive_link

[fly_webbv2]

As a new to instructing instructor, resources that share the experiences of others and their knowledge are so useful for the wider flying community, thanks for sharing,