ATC vote to take Protected Industrial action against Airservices Australia.

[DROPS]

Outcome is inevitable.

Always the same technique.

Offer nothing. Delay, delay, delay.

Then blame the few remaining workers on 'disruptions to the travelling public ', when that has been the $hitshow for the travelling public for the preceding years anyway.

Good luck to the dozen or so people who still actually "work" there

[we_were_inverted]

Same old story really. There’s been a steady deterioration of pay and conditions for years and years.

The changes since my old sector 3 days are astonishing. Less controllers working more traffic. Sectors combined when historically they weren’t. Complexity through the roof. Work life balance non existent. Rosters re-written to mean more days at work. I could go on.

Unfortunately it seems to be the norm throughout the industry as a whole.

[framer]

The changes since my old sector 3 days are astonishing. Less controllers working more traffic. Sectors combined when historically they weren’t. Complexity through the roof. Work life balance non existent. Rosters re-written to mean more days at work.
This is the goal though. Most of the people running the industry have bought into the concept of ‘lean management’.
​​​​​​​The primary purpose of lean management is to produce value for the customer by optimizing resources and creating a steady workflow (https://www.techtarget.com/searchcio/definition/workflow) based on real customer demands. It seeks to eliminate any waste of time, effort or money by identifying each step in a business process (https://www.techtarget.com/searchcio/definition/business-process) and then revising or cutting out steps that do not create value. The philosophy has its roots in manufacturing.

There is a tension between aviation safety and ‘lean management’ principles. A balance must be struck.
​​​​​​​After the space shuttle Challenger exploded in 1986, Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard P. Feynman asked NASA officials what risk of failure each mission carried. NASA engineers said about 1 in every 100 flights was likely to experience a catastrophe. NASA managers put the risk closer to 1 in 100,000.
Most of the people running the industry look quizzically at you if you start having real conversations about risk and safety. They have probably done a few courses but because they don’t live it, and feel it when the margins are eroded, they rarely understand it.
The above quote about the Challenger explosion illustrates the clear difference between management trained employees, and operational employees when assessing risk. I’m not saying the divide is that great in Australian aviation, but in my experience there is definitely a divide that I have witnessed when discussing specific risks to flight safety. When your bum isn’t in the hot seat, and many other things are competing for your attention, it’s not likely you will reach a high level of understanding on the subject of risk, especially when the worst possible outcome for you is to have to do a 30 second hand-wringing ‘we’re deeply sorry’ interview on TV.
​​​​​​​Good luck to the hard working ATCO’s.

[walesregent]

Hopefully this gets Airservices the scrutiny it so richly deserves. Hats off to the controllers for taking this stand- maximum respect.

[12-47]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/air-traffic-controllers-threaten-first-strikes-in-more-than-20-years-over-super-pay-and-staffing/news-story/7dd8a3d58e722e08f39023e1ae33f3beAir traffic controllers are set to vote on what would be their first industrial action in more than 20 years after 14 meetings with Airservices failed to address their concerns.

With aviation firefighters also preparing to strike in coming weeks, the air traffic controllers’ union Civil Air said it would apply to the Fair Work Commission after Easter for a protected action ballot order.

Among the concerns of air traffic controllers are ongoing shortages of staff and resources (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/sydney-airport-sickies-causing-widespread-flight-delays-senate-committee-hears/news-story/5ba78001214dc1bcf1897a4933e39761) at a time when they are expected to be delivering new initiatives and projects, including a digital control tower at the new Western Sydney Airport (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/why-air-traffic-controllers-will-have-no-window-to-look-out-of-at-western-sydney-airport/news-story/dd3bc8997914f0d42dfa281eb3fcef01).

Civil Air executive secretary Peter McGuane said they were also frustrated that although the government’s public service framework allowed for a 15.4 per cent superannuation contribution from employers, Airservices was refusing to pay more than 11 per cent.

“They’re saying ‘if you want these conditions you’re going to have to trade off something else to fund it’,” Mr McGuane said.

“We don’t accept that position, and that’s why it’s our intention to explore the processes before Fair Work.”

Airservices Australia recently sought to increase fees to airlines by 19 per cent in nominal terms following a 2 per cent reduction in 2019. The proposed hike was being examined by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.

In a note to members, Civil Air explained there had been 14 meetings with Airservices since November 2023 yet 20 of their 28 claims were still to be finalised.

“Most have nothing to do with remuneration but address ongoing work life balance and equity issues in the workplace,” the note said.

“It is clear that despite 14 meetings, Airservices is not interested in actually considering our claims as serious items proposed by our members, and still believe that they are ambit.”
https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/ff7e65acbd247a1815929d8ef3524b30 Air traffic controllers in the main control room at Brisbane. Picture: Lyndon MechielsenAn application for a protected industrial action ballot would be made with Fair Work after Easter, laying the groundwork for the first strikes by air traffic controllers since 2002.

Before that, air traffic controllers last took industrial action in 1977.

Mr McGuane said they were disappointed such a course of action was required but felt they had been left with no choice.

“Airservices was clearly warned on multiple occasions about the white-hot anger and despair that exists among employees due to the torrid workplace environment, and the appetite to pursue further action if claims were not met,” he said.

“They chose to ignore these warnings.”

An Airservices spokeswoman said enterprise agreement negotiations were continuing, and they would seek to finalise a new deal without interruption to the travelling public.

She said Airservices was offering a “a $75m pay rise” to the 900-plus air traffic controllers, comprising 11.2 per cent over three years in line with the Australian Public Service Commission’s recent pay decision.

“Civil Air is seeking a 20 per cent increase over three years,” the spokeswoman said.

Despite a recent Senate Estimates hearing being told the absence of just two air traffic controllers in Sydney (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/all-too-frequent-flight-delays-at-sydney-airport-blamed-on-air-traffic-control-sickies/news-story/024d535667ed43b1ad19351a72abe237) was enough to cause widespread flight delays, Airservices insisted staff shortages were being addressed.
More CoverageMore than 70 new air traffic controllers are due to be operational this year, with plans to recruit another 80 every year moving forward.

Aviation firefighters are due to take industrial action from April 5, potentially disrupting school holiday operations at major airports.

They are also seeking a 20 per cent pay rise over three years, after rejecting Airservices’ offer of 11.2 per cent.

Originally published as Air traffic controllers threaten first strikes in more than 20 years over super, pay and staffing (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/air-traffic-controllers-threaten-first-strikes-in-more-than-20-years-over-super-pay-and-staffing/news-story/7dd8a3d58e722e08f39023e1ae33f3be)

[phildan89]

For comparisons sake, controllers in NZ got 5.9% in 2022, 7.2% in 2023 and next week we get another 5.7%
20% is absolutely realistic just to keep up with the cost of living the last few years.

Good luck all, hoping for a positive outcome

[physicus]

The APSC has denied reasonable pay increases to other AU gov agencies as well. CSIRO for example are getting a paltry 11.2% over the next 3 years, this after having had 4 years of 0% during Tony Abbot's tenure as PM. This means CSIRO employees suffered an effective pay cut of 25% over the last decade.

Good luck to the AsA employees. Maybe they show more spine than the CSIRO quokkas.

[we_were_inverted]

It would be interesting if the line controllers interpretation of ‘reasonable overtime’ as stipulated in the now expired agreement resulted in a dramatic reduction in the amount of overtime worked.

Interpretations can work both ways. So can pressure.

[KRviator]

CityRail in Sydney tried that on in 2004 and again a few years ago during EBA negotiations. They'd let driver numbers decline to the point the entire network was dependant on Driver's and Guards doing OT just to man a normal timetable, yet alone special event services. Come EBA time and CityRail trying to shaft their crew, they simply said "We've had enough OT for now, thanks" and the network ground to a halt.

There is no legal definition of "reasonable OT", and the courts have ruled your RDO's are your own, you cannot be forced to work an OT shift on an RDO. The ATCO's should simply spend their days off with their family and let us wear the delays. ASA will cave, and cave quickly!

[we_were_inverted]

It would only take a few east coast radar sectors and 2-3 TCU’s to decide they’d worked enough reasonable overtime for the house of cards to be exposed for what it is (if it’s not already).

[DROPS]

There is no doubt than simply withdrawing from OT for a week would see the whole system grind to a halt.

But equally, the management types still there have shown little regards for the facts, and a reluctance to admit any fault in the current day to day results of their prior decisions.

The solution in their minds is to simply issue NOTAMS reclassifying the levels if service provided - i e. none.

I truly believe that will continue to be their strategy in the case of PIA, right up to the point

[DROPS]

There is no doubt than simply withdrawing from OT for a week would see the whole system grind to a halt.

But equally, the management types still there have shown little regards for the facts, and a reluctance to admit any fault in the current day to day results of their prior decisions.

The solution in their minds is to simply issue NOTAMS reclassifying the levels if service provided - i e. none.

I truly believe that will continue to be their strategy in the case of PIA, right up to the point where there is a ministerial intervention to 'fix this'. How much faith do you have in when and if the current minister does that?

[hiltonbaby]

EG. For comparison. I can fly an a320. My new employer uses B738M. No need for any ground school or conversion as we will train you on the job. Sounds safe as.... maybe the 80 ATC promised is not quite as it seems and corners are being cut. Pretty sure CASA are all over this.

[DROPS]

EG. For comparison. I can fly an a320. My new employer uses B738M. No need for any ground school or conversion as we will train you on the job. Sounds safe as.... maybe the 80 ATC promised is not quite as it seems and corners are being cut. Pretty sure CASA are all over this.
The CASA bit. That was sarcasm right?

[we_were_inverted]

EG. For comparison. I can fly an a320. My new employer uses B738M. No need for any ground school or conversion as we will train you on the job. Sounds safe as.... maybe the 80 ATC promised is not quite as it seems and corners are being cut. Pretty sure CASA are all over this.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. It sounds exactly like what you’d expect from the aviation industry in this country.

Of those ‘80 ATC promised’ let’s be realistic. 40 will make it to operational training. Maybe 30 will endorse. Half of those will be on the radar sectors / towers that are so desperate for staff. That 15 will not even cover retirements / resignations/natural attrition. The cycle of staffing issues will continue indefinitely.

Or…Airservices could start paying industry standard pay and 2024 conditions and attract the right people…I’ll see myself out.

[missy]

ATC vote to take Protected Industrial action against Airservices Australia.

Outcome is inevitable.

Always the same technique.

Offer nothing. Delay, delay, delay.

Then blame the few remaining workers on 'disruptions to the travelling public ', when that has been the $hitshow for the travelling public for the preceding years anyway.

Good luck to the dozen or so people who still actually "work" there

Actually DROPS the thread title isn't correct. Perhaps ATC to vote to take Protected Industrial action against Airservices Australia.

The process is:
An application for a protected action ballot is the first step towards taking protected industrial action, with following steps including the actual ballot of members, a compulsory conference between the parties with a FWC Commissioner, and a notification period prior to any action taking place (assuming the ballot is successful).

I do agree that the outcome is inevitable.
The solution in their minds is to simply issue NOTAMS reclassifying the levels if service provided - i e. none.
But the AsA CEO said at the Senate Estimates ($hit $how) that TIBA is an extra layer of safety.
We add an additional protocol, which is the traffic information broadcast by
aircraft. That means that the aircraft need to broadcast their position, no different to when they are flying into
class G or some regional ports. It means there is an extra layer of safety because instead of the air traffic
controller, the person, being the only person who knows what's going on, it's making sure that everyone

[pcx]

“We add an additional protocol, which is the traffic information broadcast by
aircraft. That means that the aircraft need to broadcast their position, no different to when they are flying into
class G or some regional ports. It means there is an extra layer of safety because instead of the air traffic
controller, the person, being the only person who knows what's going on, it's making sure that everyone”

How on earth does anyone who makes a statement like that get to be a CEO of anything let alone something as important as a ASA.

As a country we are rapidly retreating into the very depths of the third world.

[Maggie Island]

“We add an additional protocol, which is the traffic information broadcast by
aircraft. That means that the aircraft need to broadcast their position, no different to when they are flying into
class G or some regional ports. It means there is an extra layer of safety because instead of the air traffic
controller, the person, being the only person who knows what's going on, it's making sure that everyone”

How on earth does anyone who makes a statement like that get to be a CEO of anything let alone something as important as a ASA.

As a country we are rapidly retreating into the very depths of the third world.

Reads like a poor April fools joke don’t it

[Stationair8]

The ASA CEO, also believes in the Easter Bunny!

Last big ATC strike, I believe was in 1977.

[10JQKA]

PIA has commenced

[Ken Borough]

Last big ATC strike, I believe was in 1977.

Was not that a strike by a mob called the PREI (technicians) rather than ATCOs?

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Best of Luck Ladies and Gentlemen.

It is about time you were properly recognised and remunerated.

MCD

[10JQKA]

Was not that a strike by a mob called the PREI (technicians) rather than ATCOs?

Think u may be right. I think last serious ATC industrial action was early 1989 just before the pilots' strike.

[missy]

Think u may be right. I think last serious ATC industrial action was early 1989 just before the pilots' strike.

From Civil Air site:
January 1989 The Sydney ATC Dispute begins. Principal catalyst for action is lack of staffing requiring excessive use of overtime.

10 April 1989 Commissioner Sheather – Order that bans and limitations at Sydney and Melbourne be lifted immediately.

13 April 1989 CommissionerSheather decision – “Reasonable Overtime” - One overtime shift or other overtime up to a maximum of seven hours overtime in any fortnightly period.

28 June 1989 Justice Munro decision on “stand down”. History of case involved industrial activity at Mascot Airport. Approved CAA application for insertion of stand down clauses.

4 September 1989 Industrial Relations Commission Full Bench decision released on the Sydney dispute.

Note: Principal catalyst for action is lack of staffing requiring excessive use of overtime.

In 1989 a restriction was placed on the number of consecutive shifts that ATCs could work (10 shifts), prior to that there was no maximum. This was inserted into the Enterprise Agreement, Airservices has been trying to get rid of this 10 shift limitation ever since.

[12-47]

950 odd controllers, plenty to go round supposedly, shouldn't be too much of an issue getting an overtime ban approved as part of PIA then?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

So....they'll refuse to put out the fires that aren't there?

[we_were_inverted]

I hope the ARFF get the substantial raise that they deserve and which is well overdue.

[DROPS]

Maximum 7 hr per fornight! 😆😆😆

So factor in that people are currently doing up to 30h OT per fornight - and there are STILL airspace closures almost every day, what do you think the effect of an OT withdrawal under PIA might be?

[Duck Pilot]

TIBA and now this, can’t be doing good for the ICAO rating…

[10JQKA]

Not sure why but mods have merged the ARFF and ATC thread into one which is weird and now confusing. I don't understand why this was done.

[framer]

Nor I.
It would be like merging two threads where one is talking about the QF Engineers industrial situation and the other is talking about QF pilots and their industrial situation.

[DROPS]

Moderator.
Please reconstitute the original separate threads

[10JQKA]

Received this on 3rd April......

Hello 10JQKA

Your thread "ARFF vote to take Protected Industrial Action against Airservices..." has been merged into to ATC vote to take Protected Industrial action against Airservices Australia. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/658431-arff-vote-take-protected-industrial-action-against-airservices.html) by our moderator team. We encourage you to continue your discussion in this new location.

Thank you!

[UnderneathTheRadar]

It's a pre-emptive move by the mods in anticipation it going the way of most threads in here which run on a merry-go-around of Virgin to Qantas to Bonza to Rex and back again

[we_were_inverted]

It would be so easy for AsA to avoid all of this.

Acknowledge the work their staff has done by simply paying them what they’re worth (industry standard, not unreasonable) without asking them to sacrifice conditions in return.

Dealing with the continual and increasing short staffing, the increasingly complex workload, the worse and worse rosters etc is all the more manageable when you’re being compensated appropriately.

In the meantime how many more have got their applications in for UAE / Oman / Germany etc?

[CaptainMidnight]

Was not that a strike by a mob called the PREI (technicians) rather than ATCOs?

There was an ATC strike on when I was doing field training after graduating from the college in early 1979.

I wandered around the then "AMEN" looking at and in aircraft .....

[DROPS]

It would be so easy for AsA to avoid all of this.

Acknowledge the work their staff has done by simply paying them what they’re worth (industry standard, not unreasonable) without asking them to sacrifice conditions in return.

Dealing with the continual and increasing short staffing, the increasingly complex workload, the worse and worse rosters etc is all the more manageable when you’re being compensated appropriately.

In the meantime how many more have got their applications in for UAE / Oman / Germany etc?

It jas gotten so bad people are actually going back to HKG.

[Gas Chamber]

What happened?
Did treating highly skilled people like **** and paying them peanuts not work out?!
We’re closing airspace and towers because they can’t find staff now.
Travelling public might be interested in the lack of safety at most regional airports now, and don’t mention the near miss I had at Sydney airport last year. We made the newspaper on that one (staff shortages and low time departure controller).
How about some managers realise they actually need to pay people a liveable wage or they’ll go elsewhere.
Same situation as Australian airlines. It’s not this hard.
PAY people for their expertise and experience.

[DROPS]

What happened?
Did treating highly skilled people like **** and paying them peanuts not work out?!
We’re closing airspace and towers because they can’t find staff now.
Travelling public might be interested in the lack of safety at most regional airports now, and don’t mention the near miss I had at Sydney airport last year. We made the newspaper on that one (staff shortages and low time departure controller).
How about some managers realise they actually need to pay people a liveable wage or they’ll go elsewhere.
Same situation as Australian airlines. It’s not this hard.
PAY people for their expertise and experience.

We paid the Airservices CEO over $1M a year.

It must also not be a liveable wage based on performance.delivered?

Perhaps he will also go elsewhere?

​​​​​​

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Perversely no one will listen until there is an actual accident. Near misses are seen viewed by our regulator as a successfully managed event with a safe outcome.

[10JQKA]

There was an accident. At Mangalore. They have just finished the Coronial inquest on it. Findings yet to be handed down.

[Clare Prop]

I have a student who is UK trained ATC now moved to Australia. Experience in very busy airspace around London. Sent off an application to Airservices in February and nobody has bothered to even acknowledge his application.
While flying with him on Friday afternoon, Jandakot tower packed up and went home 3 hours early, having had restricted/no circuits all day. This is costing the industry dearly already. It's hard to know if PIA will actually make any difference, it is the GA operators who will be hurt the most. I'm all for them getting better conditions but it's going to come at a massive cost to others, it already has. Every session of circuits we can't do costs hundreds of dollars in lost revenue.
Time to lobby some senators and get them asking questions of who TF is in charge at Airservices.

[DROPS]

I have a student who is UK trained ATC now moved to Australia. Experience in very busy airspace around London. Sent off an application to Airservices in February and nobody has bothered to even acknowledge his application.
While flying with him on Friday afternoon, Jandakot tower packed up and went home 3 hours early, having had restricted/no circuits all day. This is costing the industry dearly already. It's hard to know if PIA will actually make any difference, it is the GA operators who will be hurt the most. I'm all for them getting better conditions but it's going to come at a massive cost to others, it already has. Every session of circuits we can't do costs hundreds of dollars in lost revenue.
Time to lobby some senators and get them asking questions of who TF is in charge at Airservices.

The Senators (and every one else for that matter) know exactly who is in charge, how long they have been in charge and who their enablers are. My question is when does the absent minister do her job and intervene?

[le Pingouin]

10JQKA, you're sadly mistaken if you think the general public cares about a couple of lighties colliding OCTA. It rates about as highly as a two car collision.

[Lead Balloon]

Indeed. It's mostly about politics, not principle.

[we_were_inverted]

I have a student who is UK trained ATC now moved to Australia. Experience in very busy airspace around London. Sent off an application to Airservices in February and nobody has bothered to even acknowledge his application.
While flying with him on Friday afternoon, Jandakot tower packed up and went home 3 hours early, having had restricted/no circuits all day. This is costing the industry dearly already. It's hard to know if PIA will actually make any difference, it is the GA operators who will be hurt the most. I'm all for them getting better conditions but it's going to come at a massive cost to others, it already has. Every session of circuits we can't do costs hundreds of dollars in lost revenue.
Time to lobby some senators and get them asking questions of who TF is in charge at Airservices.

unfortunately most of the time it is the poor old GA operators that cop the brunt of it before anyone else, and it’s heartbreaking to see.

In your example for Jandakot, without knowing exactly it sounds to me like they were already short staffed and the ATC on duty were at their maximum operational hours for the day and there was likely no one else available to keep the tower open.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Jandakot tower packed up and went home 3 hours early, having had restricted/no circuits all day.
Can you do circuits after the tower closes? Pretty stupid if you can't do circuits when there is ATC, but can when there isn't.

[Awol57]

Up to 5 aircraft on the main runway only, parallel circuit runway NAVBL outside tower hours (just had to check ERSA to make sure that hadn't changed).

[10JQKA]

https://www.themandarin.com.au/243526-air-traffic-controllers-set-to-strike-over-dud-aps-wide-wage-offer/

[Clare Prop]

unfortunately most of the time it is the poor old GA operators that cop the brunt of it before anyone else, and it’s heartbreaking to see.

In your example for Jandakot, without knowing exactly it sounds to me like they were already short staffed and the ATC on duty were at their maximum operational hours for the day and there was likely no one else available to keep the tower open.

And yet my student at the time is an ATC from the London area who has moved here, applied to Airservices in February for a job and has never even had a response to his expression of interest. It looks from the website like they only want overseas qualified controllers in Queensland, and only Victoria needs trainees, even though it is way beyond crisis point in WA. Current opportunities - Airservices (airservicesaustralia.com) (https://careers.airservicesaustralia.com/caw/en/listing/)

So I don't accept staff shortages as a reason for this. This has been going on for several months. Various different voices have come and gone but they still restrict the circuit operations. Someone is probably getting KPIs and pocketing bonuses in Canberra and we have to deal with yet another nail in GA's coffin.

Every time we send a disappointed student home who hasn't been able to have their circuit lesson costs us $500 and this can happen several times a week. Of course the airport leaseholders aren't getting their landing fees either, so they will probably just crank up the rents to cover it. And on it goes.

[Awol57]

And yet my student at the time is an ATC from the London area who has moved here, applied to Airservices in February for a job and has never even had a response to his expression of interest. It looks from the website like they only want overseas qualified controllers in Queensland, and only Victoria needs trainees, even though it is way beyond crisis point in WA. Current opportunities - Airservices (airservicesaustralia.com) (https://careers.airservicesaustralia.com/caw/en/listing/)

So I don't accept staff shortages as a reason for this. This has been going on for several months. Various different voices have come and gone but they still restrict the circuit operations. Someone is probably getting KPIs and pocketing bonuses in Canberra and we have to deal with yet another nail in GA's coffin.

Every time we send a disappointed student home who hasn't been able to have their circuit lesson costs us $500 and this can happen several times a week. Of course the airport leaseholders aren't getting their landing fees either, so they will probably just crank up the rents to cover it. And on it goes.
i can't speak as to why your student hasn't heard back, but VIC is where the main training establishment is, QLD can also do some which is likely why they are listed for experienced controllers.

I believe there is 3 or 4 trainee at JT at the moment (not certain so don't take that as gospel) so hopefully the restrictions will ease as they come online. I realise that doesn't help the immediate problem but hopefully some light in the tunnel somewhere.

[Clare Prop]

This has been going on for months, New voices come and go but the situation doesn't change.

[Awol57]

Sorry can't shed any more light on it, back when I worked there it took around 6-9 months to be fully rated. Not sure what it's like these days.

[ReportVisual]

I don't see why Air Services should give anything to the current workforce. The current staff turnover is one of the lowest of any government department. If things are so terrible as people on this forum keep complaining about, then why is our retention so high.
The board has the full support from the minister, he knows the retention numbers and I can guarantee you that he will be in no rush to support the union.

The same voices who complain and post about everything over and over again should just go. But they won't, they will just keep enjoying their massive paycheck, unlimited sick leave and 6 weeks of leave every year.

[10JQKA]

Is there a new minister ?

[MikeHatter732]

I don't see why Air Services should give anything to the current workforce. The current staff turnover is one of the lowest of any government department. If things are so terrible as people on this forum keep complaining about, then why is our retention so high.
The board has the full support from the minister, he knows the retention numbers and I can guarantee you that he will be in no rush to support the union.

The same voices who complain and post about everything over and over again should just go. But they won't, they will just keep enjoying their massive paycheck, unlimited sick leave and 6 weeks of leave every year.
Is that you Mr Harfield?

[Maggie Island]

I don't see why Air Services should give anything to the current workforce. The current staff turnover is one of the lowest of any government department. If things are so terrible as people on this forum keep complaining about, then why is our retention so high.
The board has the full support from the minister, he knows the retention numbers and I can guarantee you that he will be in no rush to support the union.

The same voices who complain and post about everything over and over again should just go. But they won't, they will just keep enjoying their massive paycheck, unlimited sick leave and 6 weeks of leave every year.

I mean I get why these posts appear on the QF and subsidiary threads, but who’s paying you to be here!?

[Lead Balloon]

Is there a new minister ?Maybe the Minister's preferred pronouns are not the obvious ones?

Or perhaps 'ReportVisual' has a rather sexist outlook.

[10JQKA]

"The board has the full support from the minister"

The kiss of death. Means they've lost the dressing room. Coach has til rd 6 then gorn.......

[Clare Prop]

How about actually giving something to the people who are paying for it, customers or clients or whatever we are. How about giving us some air traffic services so that we can get our jobs done. At the moment the "service" is not fit for purpose, that is no reflection on the peeps in the tower.

If the retention rates are so high then why are we being told that we have to wait for the new trainees to come on line, and why do we hear the new voices for a few weeks then they are gone, to be replaced by another and another and still we have "Circuits are restricted"?

How long do we have to wait and how many millions of dollars must it cost industry while we wait?

[12-47]

https://www.themandarin.com.au/243526-air-traffic-controllers-set-to-strike-over-dud-aps-wide-wage-offer/

So they're asking for 20%. That should cover household inflation over the last two years. Are they not negotiating for the next 3 years aswell? Unions need to be looking at the 30-40% if they want to protect member's interests ala the recent CFMEU outcome. Prices are not coming back down anytime soon.

[Gas Chamber]

I don't see why Air Services should give anything to the current workforce. The current staff turnover is one of the lowest of any government department. If things are so terrible as people on this forum keep complaining about, then why is our retention so high.
The board has the full support from the minister, he knows the retention numbers and I can guarantee you that he will be in no rush to support the union.

The same voices who complain and post about everything over and over again should just go. But they won't, they will just keep enjoying their massive paycheck, unlimited sick leave and 6 weeks of leave every year.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. 😂
you can’t keep anyone!
you’re literally shutting towers and airspace!
the travelling public deserves to know the truth.
ridiculous comment. Absolutely disconnected from reality.
as a pilot I’m shocked by the lack of risk analysis.
you need to pay more. Too bad. That’s reality

[framer]

I predict that before 2024 is over, there will be a period of days or weeks where movements at major Australian airports are reduced to less than 50% of normal movements due to a combination of Industrial action ( aircrew + ATC+ ground staff) and there will be a very predictable outcry of shock and horror and the inevitable enquiries demanded.
I am willing to bet two stubbies that this will happen.

[DROPS]

I don't see why Air Services should give anything to the current workforce. The current staff turnover is one of the lowest of any government department. If things are so terrible as people on this forum keep complaining about, then why is our retention so high.
The board has the full support from the minister, he knows the retention numbers and I can guarantee you that he will be in no rush to support the union.

The same voices who complain and post about everything over and over again should just go. But they won't, they will just keep enjoying their massive paycheck, unlimited sick leave and 6 weeks of leave every year.

Factually incorrect, so just someone who couldn't cut it operationally and now a disgruntled fluffer?

[missy]

I don't see why Air Services should give anything to the current workforce. The current staff turnover is one of the lowest of any government department. If things are so terrible as people on this forum keep complaining about, then why is our retention so high.
The board has the full support from the minister, he knows the retention numbers and I can guarantee you that he will be in no rush to support the union.

The same voices who complain and post about everything over and over again should just go. But they won't, they will just keep enjoying their massive paycheck, unlimited sick leave and 6 weeks of leave every year.

You have a post history of 5 (including the one above).

2 posts on the AsA TIBA/TRA/OPR Restrictions thread
Former staff who left can stay overseas. They didn't show any loyalty to the company so I don't see why ASA should offer them any thing more than what the trainees from the college get. Overseas providers are no where near as good as what is in Australia and those staff have probably de-skilled, making them no more valuable than what comes from the college.
Everyone already knows they are gaming the system.

2 posts on the ATC contributed to 15% of flight delays in December thread.
The obvious solution is to roster the overtime the same way as other shifts. The EBA stipulates that reasonable overtime should be completed, I don't see why controllers should not do 1-2 additional shifts every 2-3 weeks. This is normal in other companies and it only seems to be the controllers that have a problem with it. ASA has a robust fatigue management system and therefor the constant complaining about fatigue is absolute rubbish.

The airlines and customers should not have to face delays just because the controllers don't want to play their part in the system. We need a clean out and those who don't want to support the company should just go.
It is obvious to everyone that this is organized. Sydney had only 2 shifts to cover and no one would agree to reasonable overtime as required in the EBA.

Air Services needs to start motivating those who do not enough over time by rejecting pay scale increases and leave requests.

RV, it would be an alternative universe if we all agreed with one another. 50 or even 100 shades of vanilla. In 40 years as an ATC there were some very robust debates, but at the end of the day there is a job to be done, people will make their own decisions. But I make one point, ATCs aren't like HR specialists, or accountants, or teachers. There is a single employer of civil ATCs in Australia, and so those who like the job tend to stay, despite their misgivings, dispute a toxic culture. I guess they tune out to a degree and probably don't spend much time on pprune.

I do ponder your motivations, I guess many ponder mine.

[sunnySA]

Airport strikes set for Monday amid deadlock
ARFF: Airport strikes (https://www.themandarin.com.au/243914-airport-strikes-set-for-monday-amid-deadlock/)Airline passengers planning to travel over the school holidays are facing a nervous wait over the next 48 hours, with crisis talks between the Aviation Branch of the United Firefighters Union (UFU) and airport operator Airservices Australia remaining deadlocked ahead of Monday’s scheduled national four-hour airports strike.

The UFU said on Thursday there had still been no breakthrough in the negotiations over minimum staffing levels the union is pushing for. These have been roped into the bargaining process for pay and conditions where the federal employers’ hands have been effectively tied by the Australian Public Service Commission (APSC) after it sealed a deal with the Community and Public Sector Union (CPSU).

Unions outside the CPSU are not accepting the deal because, among several other things, the 11.2% wage rise the CPSU agreed to offset otherwise higher pay for a workplace right to flexible work that cannot be extended to police, firies, tradies and field staff, leaving frontline workers behind desk drivers.

Airport strikes called off as aviation firefighters secure in-principle deal
ARFF: Airport strikes called off (https://www.themandarin.com.au/243941-airport-strikes-called-off-as-aviation-firefighters-secure-in-principle-deal/)

Nationwide strikes by aviation firefighters scheduled for Monday that threatened to ground school holiday travellers have been called off at the last minute after federal employer Airservices reached an in-principle agreement over fire crew availability and numbers.

In a statement issued late Thursday, the aviation branch of the United Firefighters Union (UFU) said the “work stoppage on 15 April will not proceed” and that they “are satisfied that their key concerns have been addressed by the in-principal agreement”.

The breakthrough in the dispute suggests the potent threat of industrial action across the aviation sector may have been enough to tip the hand of senior Labor hardheads to allow pay increases outside the 11.2% over three years that the Australian Public Service Commission negotiated with the Community and Public Sector Union in return for the right to work from home.

[DROPS]

Somebody blinked

Guess it is getting just a little bit too embarrassing. Frankly I am surprised. I thought embarassment was way back in the rear view.

[framer]

Guess it is getting just a little bit too embarrassing.
I don’t think it’s embarrassment. I am hoping that someone right near the top of the chain has realised that the entire Aviation sector is poised to break down. The scene is set for one disruption after another as different work groups come up to negotiation. If firefighters take action and that rolls into controllers taking action which overlaps with various pilot groups taking action then you have a major economic and political event. If you are an elected official who knows they are only 12 months away from sunnier macro-economic climes, you’d do well to stave off public outrage over a failed transport system this year.
The pay and conditions need to improve significantly right across the industry and although it will happen, it won’t be pretty.

[10JQKA]

From the ATC forum...
.
Here in Canada we had:
2023: 8%
2024: 5%
2025: 4%
2026/2027 3% each
which is about 25% increase over a period of 5 years.

[we_were_inverted]

Regardless of the result of the potential PIA, the fact that TIBA exists now as the acceptable norm and the risks and workloads it puts on to Pilots and ATCs is a disgrace.

It is the professionalism of both pilots and ATC that prevent disaster and nothing else. I hear stories of the chaos when some of those east coast sectors between Sydney and Brisbane are TIBA.

Heads should roll at the executive and board level of AsA to have allowed it to get to this. Well done to the operational folk that make it still work.

[10JQKA]

"Heads should roll at the executive and board level of AsA to have allowed it to get to this. Well done to the operational folk that make it still work."

The Exec branch just keep shuffling the deckchairs so that no one can ever be accountable "hey I just got here and am here to help" fast fwd 6months new person same talk.

Board is invisible. CEO is on the Board.

[Gas Chamber]

Maybe unions (including pilots) need to start explaining the real situation to the media. Enough is enough.
pay your staff!

[DROPS]

Maybe unions (including pilots) need to start explaining the real situation to the media. Enough is enough.
pay your staff!

Seen the state of the media lately?

19 year olds content generating the latest in click-bait.

There is no investigative journalism anymore..

Exactly as corporate thieves like it.

[DROPS]

96% vote in favour of strike action.

CEO not reappointed on same day.

Interesting coincidence

[sunnySA]

96% vote in favour of strike action.

CEO not reappointed on same day.

Interesting coincidence
DROPS, given one of the votes was "An unlimited number of indefinite or periodic bans on using the Enroute Conditional Endorsement (ECE)?" it begs the question - how often is ECE being used?

[DROPS]

DROPS, given one of the votes was "An unlimited number of indefinite or periodic bans on using the Enroute Conditional Endorsement (ECE)?" it begs the question - how often is ECE being used?

Well, every day. It is part of the base roster.

[Super G]

Good point GC. Do you think passengers have a right to be advised before they board a flight that they will be flying through TIBA airspace and/or landing at an airport with no ARFF coverage? Would this info be helpful for pax to make an informed assessment of the risk for their flight? OR, does industry just say 'get on the plane, we got this'?