Falcon to the edge of Russian airspace.

[falcon900]

Who could possibly have imagined that this could have happened?
Russians jamming Comms?? Well I never.
Strictly speaking we should be paying them for saving us from Grant Shapops for a few minutes I suppose…

[TURIN]

I came here because I thought it was about the latest SpaceX launch going wrong. 😁

[hunterboy]

The fact that the rest of us having been dealing with this for a couple of years has probably passed him by.

[DogTailRed2]

I came here because I thought it was about the latest SpaceX launch going wrong. 😁
I came here because I thought SpaceX was trolling Russia from space. Now that would be cool.

[Video Mixdown]

Are there really people on this thread who think commercial and military aircraft can’t navigate without GPS?

[falcon900]

Are there really people on this thread who think commercial and military aircraft can’t navigate without GPS?

You tell me.
I was responding to the naivety of the reporting which suggested that they were “blind”.
More to the point, the reporting that it couldn’t have happened to Air Force One ( which I believe it could not). I suspect it couldn’t have happened to the Voyager either. But yes , give the defence secretary a thrill by flying close to Russian airspace in essentially a business jet to save a few bob, and this is what will happen.
How the incident comes to be in the public domain might seem like a good question to some people too.

[DogTailRed2]

Are there really people on this thread who think commercial and military aircraft can’t navigate without GPS?
Looking at the accident thread, yes.

[Video Mixdown]

You tell me.
I was responding to the naivety of the reporting which suggested that they were “blind”.
More to the point, the reporting that it couldn’t have happened to Air Force One ( which I believe it could not). I suspect it couldn’t have happened to the Voyager either. But yes , give the defence secretary a thrill by flying close to Russian airspace in essentially a business jet to save a few bob, and this is what will happen.
How the incident comes to be in the public domain might seem like a good question to some people too.
There was no 'incident'. Just a hysterically inaccurate media story about something that has been happening for months.

[sycamore]

He could always have gone in his own aeroplane(N Reg),taken a few dozen maps;;would have been able to claim a couple of night stops,`HOME-T0-Duty`mileage; might even have missed the border and ended up in Red Square...

[bugged on the right]

Our boys would break out the periscopic sextant, warmed up the radio altimeter and continued bravely on using pressure pattern navigation and referring to ground features from their topos. No problem.

[beardy]

Our boys would break out the periscopic sextant, warmed up the radio altimeter and continued bravely on using pressure pattern navigation and referring to ground features from their topos. No problem.
Works for me

[TURIN]

There was no 'incident'. Just a hysterically inaccurate media story about something that has been happening for months.
Absolutely. I caught the Sky News pundits reviewing the papers, the utter drivel one particular commentator spouted on this issue wasn't just laughable it was slanderous! I can only assume the rest of their reporting was just as bad on politics, business and sport too.

[chevvron]

Who could possibly have imagined that this could have happened?
Russians jamming Comms?? Well I never.
Strictly speaking we should be paying them for saving us from Grant Shapops for a few minutes I suppose…
What happened then? There was no video or link.

[Asturias56]

"There was no 'incident'. Just a hysterically inaccurate media story about something that has been happening for months."


It's Shappes - never a man to miss an opportunity to grab a headline (or photo edit out his previous leader) - if it hadn't been the vile Russians it would have been "thunderstorms", or balloons, or little green men................

[Video Mixdown]

It's Shappes - never a man to miss an opportunity to grab a headline (or photo edit out his previous leader) - if it hadn't been the vile Russians it would have been "thunderstorms", or balloons, or little green men................
You talk yet say nothing. Why?

[Fortissimo]

You tell me.
I was responding to the naivety of the reporting which suggested that they were “blind”.
More to the point, the reporting that it couldn’t have happened to Air Force One ( which I believe it could not). I suspect it couldn’t have happened to the Voyager either. But yes , give the defence secretary a thrill by flying close to Russian airspace in essentially a business jet to save a few bob, and this is what will happen.
How the incident comes to be in the public domain might seem like a good question to some people too.

The answer on public domain is that there were journos on board. The hype is all about specific targeting of the aircraft, which is nonsense, as is the sensationalist language. And if the journos hadn’t known, a helpful Spad would probably have put them in the picture as a means of bigging up their man (tough task).

As others have pointed out, commercial traffic has been subject to this for some years now as spillover from Russian ops in Syria, Ukraine and Black Sea. The difference now is that the capability has moved from simple jamming to spoofing, which the major OEMs are working to prevent. The mil ops community has just not talked about it, for obvious reasons, but you can assume there is no immunity from receipt of a broadcast jam/spoof signal, the effects of that signal being unique to the system involved.

We can but hope the direct experience gives SofS a bit more empathy when it comes to agreeing procurement proposals.

[Red Line Entry]

Perhaps some of our older colleagues could highlight the “mekoning” from the Cold War to remind us how this used to be a very real and deadly pastime.

[Mogwi]

Indeed! Mekoning (or more correctly maeconing) was the re-broadcasting of navigation signals from a different location, to confuse unwary chaps. The classic case in the ‘70’s was an NDB (I think) in northern Germany that was “cloned” by the naughty Ruskies and re-broadcast at higher power to tempt the boys to head too far East.

As I remember, it caused quite a few “Brass Monkey” shouts but never an actual whoopsie.

Ah, heady days!

Mog

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Not always a happy outcome - a C-130 was shot down by 4 MiGs over Armenia in September 1958 having probably been mekon'd into Sov airspace.

[chevvron]

Not always a happy outcome - a C-130 was shot down by 4 MiGs over Armenia in September 1958 having probably been mekon'd into Sov airspace.
I recall reading about that one in 'RAF Flying Review' in the late ''50s or early '60s.

[tdracer]

Looking at the accident thread, yes.
Correction:
Aircraft that can't navigate without GPS?
No.
Pilots that can't navigate without GPS?
Yes!

[Herod]

tdracer; not a navigator by any chance?

[tdracer]

tdracer; not a navigator by any chance?
No, just old enough to remember when we (collectively) seemed to be able to navigate just fine long before GPS was even a gleam in someone's eye.

[megan]

Can recall trans Pacific 707 airline with the hole in the ceiling for the sextant td

[Herod]

tdracer; OK, cleared that up, and I agree with you.

[ICM]

Can recall trans Pacific 707 airline with the hole in the ceiling for the sextant td

A hole much like this, perhaps?

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x536/screenshot_2024_03_17_at_09_55_22_1e864eac615d157bea97d29a52 651d01b31748ff.png

[Lordflasheart]

A hole much like this, perhaps?

And the early 747s as well.

Between starshots, If your aircraft had pressurisation, and you happened to have a suitable length of flexible hose in your flight bag, you could also use it to vacuum up all the dross on the flight deck.:)

LFH

[Wwyvern]

In November 1961, I was one of two Flying Officers detailed to take a pair of Hunter FGA9s from St Athans to Bahrain. This was part of a replenishment plan to replace the Near East Hiunter squadrons' knackered aircraft with newly refurbushed ones, and return the knackered ones to UK. UK was reacting to a request by Kuwait for help in repulsing Iran's pre-Gulf War 1 threat in the region. With no operational air to air refuelling in those days, our route was UK - Malta, refuel and on to Cyprus. Nightstop. Cyprus north into Turket, right turn, route overhear Diyabakir, slight right rurn and land at Teheran. Refuel and on to Bahrain.

We were specificlly briefed to expect unfriendly interference with ADF signals, particularly along the roughly Easterly leg along Turkey. Sure enough, although our ADFs were tuned to stations ahead of us, the pointers and identification codes enticed us to follow their direction and to fly North. Apparently an Allied transport aircraft had fairly recently done just that, and had been shot down.

The problem did not exist for us on the return leg, because the knackered Hunters' ADFs were U/S.

[ICM]

Wwyvern: I can confirm also having experience of a strong but misleading ADF beacon on crossing from Iran into Turkey on that CENTO Route circa 1967/8. A back-plotted 3-line fix put the source nicely across the then-Soviet border.

And for LordFH, that clean-up routine was a standard Flt Eng task on the C-141A before Top of Descent on any long route leg.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Indeed! Mekoning (or more correctly maeconing) was the re-broadcasting of navigation signals from a different location, to confuse unwary chaps. The classic case in the ‘70’s was an NDB (I think) in northern Germany that was “cloned” by the naughty Ruskies and re-broadcast at higher power to tempt the boys to head too far East.

As I remember, it caused quite a few “Brass Monkey” shouts but never an actual whoopsie.

Ah, heady days!

Mog


Indeed. I used to fly a Support Command aircraft type which was frequently used to exercise the freedom of (usually) the centre corridor into Gatow. The threat of 'Meaconing' was something we were constantly aware of. Though, on reflection, there was probably far more risk to one's health from a Friday night out on the Kurferstandamm with the crew than from a moody VOR, while tracking inbound to HLZ.