Western sydney digital tower

[Gne]

https://www.9news.com.au/national/western-sydney-airport-digital-air-control-tower-mast/c06c627c-8363-467f-a5de-4a0984eda8f8?app=applenews

There are at least 5 factual errors in this report. Was this poor research by Ch 9 or something more sinister.

How can we have "absolute" safety?

Gne

[Icarus2001]

I would like to hear all about contingency planning for power outages and data stream breakdowns.

[10JQKA]

"There'll never be a situation where we'll effectively lose an aircraft," Lewis said.

But does she rule out effectively losing the airport I wonder ?

[PiperCameron]

I would like to hear all about contingency planning for power outages and data stream breakdowns.

Power and data outages can be managed relatively easily these days.. SA maybe not so much - but hey, no-one is seriously planning to actually FLY in to this airport are they?!? It'd be safer to drive.

What bothers me is that there seems to be an extraordinarily high reliance in the design and planning of this here airy-port upon the advice of extremely highly-paid consultants with little to no experience in their respective tasks to hand. Maybe this is just another example? Only time will tell. :(

[Deano969]

My question is why bother?
Build a data centre miles away or a tower
I can't see them saving on staff
Add in the expense of a bunch of cameras plus maintenance
You cant replace a set of eyes even with 1000 remote cameras

It's like they are doing this just to prove they can

[Geoff Fairless]

I'm retired so I probably do not have access to the required separation standards; however,

Camera images are not visual separation as defined by any manuals I have access to, the usefulness of a control tower is (was) all about visual separation.
Radar separation between successive aircraft is 3NM, typically visual separation can accommodate close approaches, successive departures on diverging tracks, and go-arounds until a radar standard can be applied.
Eyeball separation has no tolerances applied to the image in the controller's brain. The eye is presumed to have an uninterrupted power supply, is backed up by the eyes of other tower controllers, has an advanced display system called the retina, and an advanced intelligence system attached that can instantly detect a subtle deviation from the cleared flightpath or taxiway. What tolerances will be applied to artificially generated images shown to a controller on a television screen? The new services will also be classed as screen-based, hence subject to the screen break requirements for the controllers = more controllers.

I love the identification capabilities of the camera system, but, once again, does the aircraft have to squawk ident to ensure the label is correct?
So many questions.......

[PiperCameron]

It's like they are doing this just to prove they can

Since money is no barrier on this project (oh those poor, ignorant, NSW taxpayers)... of course they are. :D

[CaptCloudbuster]

What could go wrong?:rolleyes:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

WOT CUD POSIBLY GO RONG...???

'Controllers' some 20km away - why not make it at the Gold Coast and really enjoy the after hours?

Carnt look out de windows no more.....OOOPPPSSS......!!!

[nomess]

Hackers will love this.

[DROPS]

I have complete confidence in the outcome.

The history of successful and timely projects is a testament to the concept and implementation.






​​

[Johnny_56]

Wasn’t this trialled at Alice Springs? I assume if they could get it to work there (and I don’t know the results of the trial - I’m just assuming it did) they probably have a shot at getting it to work in Sydney.

[Peter Fanelli]

I would like to hear all about contingency planning for power outages and data stream breakdowns.

Yes, especially given the entire facility is will be brand spanking new.

[Peter Fanelli]

Hackers will love this.

Die Hard 2

[ER_BN]

I have complete confidence in the outcome.

The history of successful and timely projects is a testament to the concept and implementation.






​​

DROPS, love your work!!

INTAS for Eastern Sydney International TWR, 17 years and still waiting…
Ah well could not have been that important..

INTAS cost hmmm close to a billion…..see what you mean…

GOTTA LOVE THE SMARTEST MEN IN THE ROOM!

Why is it Airservices attracts so many managers afflicted by DUNNIG-KRUGER Syndrome

TECHNOLOGY SEARCHING FOR USE….

[PiperCameron]

I have complete confidence in the outcome.

The history of successful and timely projects is a testament to the concept and implementation.​​

I presume you're referring to ASA? Well, they're just the tip of the iceberg on this here voyage. Take a squizz at https://westernsydney.com.au/opportunities/contractors/awarded-tenders and note how many others are running a little overdue. :rolleyes:

[CaptCloudbuster]

But what about the promised high tech jobs for Western Sydney (https://www.westernsydney.edu.au/newscentre/news_centre/more_news_stories/western_sydney_international_landing_tomorrows_jobs_today)? :rolleyes:Speaking at today’s Canterbury-Bankstown Business Chamber Business After 5 event, Mr Hickey announced the initiative and told around 500 guests that WSI has opened the door to exciting new possibilities in Western Sydney for everyone.

“The airport will redefine and reshape our region, pulling the centre of economic gravity toward the west, bringing with it not just more jobs, but higher-quality, higher paying jobs,” he said.

“People will no longer have to travel to the east to be a software engineer, a university lecturer or even a CEO. The transformation underway means these jobs are coming to Sydney’s West. “



WSI, Landing yesterdays jobs, tomorrow.

[mig3]

Airservices Australia trialled a remote tower at Alice Springs (YBAS) over ten years ago. (https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2011/saab-and-airservices-australia-sign-contract-to-conduct-remote-atm-tower-trial)

How's that been going for them?

[CaptCloudbuster]

Alice Springs seems like an appropriate fit to actually find a suitable workforce to operate the tower.

ASP & Crime (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/spanian-exposes-harsh-reality-inside-crimeplagued-alice-springs-as-territory-enacts-radical-measures-to-combat-youth-crime/news-story/97053a53033255792e984c3871fd0412). Australia’s most dangerous city.

[PiperCameron]

Alice Springs seems like an appropriate fit to actually find a suitable workforce to operate the tower.

That seems to be the real reason behind the trial in the first place.. no-one wanted to work there back then.

I've heard it is occasionally un-staffed for a good chunk of the time now, putting additional load on ENR controllers working that sector from Melbourne.

[sheepless]

Seems to work at London City - article here (https://www.internationalairportreview.com/news/176317/a-look-back-on-london-citys-digital-atc-tower-one-year-on/)

[Geoff Fairless]

I think London City was a good place to start.

No VFR circuit traffic, London (apparently the best in the world) approach/departures control, one runway, small PPR parking area.
High speed internet circuit between London and Swanwick, satisfying the 1 second video latency requirement.

None of that applies to either Ballina, West Sydney Airport or Hamilton Island, two of which will be Class D CTRs.

I anticipate the Tower Controllers having to be close to the antenna towers, which makes both Ballina and HMI a marginal improvement at best. We already know that West Sydney will be in "centre" close to the airport so once again the savings are confined to building, there do not appear to be staff savings.

We know it works, assuming the standards applied to the cameras, are the same as applied to eyeballs. I only hope that CASA has done it's homework!

[Advance]

Airservices has a record of handling technological innovation. Consider a few::

July 7th 2000: Press report
Air traffic controllers at Sydney airport lost radar and radio contact with 20 aircraft for up to 15 minutes during a peak period Thursday evening, an airport spokesman said Friday.
A two-minute power blackout at 6:30 p.m. triggered a computer failure that took further 10 minutes to restore, said Richard Dudley, a spokesman for Air Services Australia, a government-owned corporation that manages the airport's air traffic control services.
During that time, planes carrying more than 1,000 passengers were forced to circle above the city with no contact between flight crews and the airport control tower.
Dudley said he did not believe there had been any near-collisions between the planes. But he called the incident extremely serious and said an investigation would be held.
''It is of great concern to us to establish why that power outage occurred, particularly as we have layers...(of) power supplies underneath.''
''For this sort of situation to occur is extraordinarily rare and that's why we want to get to the bottom of it as quickly as possible,'' he said.

BUT an electronics technician had previously told Airservices and Sydney airport that their back up power supply would not work as expected because the signal sent by the Control Center asking for back up power to start up was not the signal the back up power system was expecting.
His report was poo-pooed. He's only a techo, our engineers say it will work as intended. He was right, they were wrong.


I know a fellow who was flying in southern NSW that night. He recalls the sudden excitement on Center frequency. Call after call. We're on descent into SYD. There is nothing there, no lights, no comms, no answer on any frequency and it's just a big black hole. Repeated many times. MEL CEN of course had no idea and they had no comms with SYD either. SYD did not even have hand held battery back up VHF coms, nothing at all. Some aircraft diverted on their own initiative, no separation except look out the window at night, good luck. My mate is a chicken so he pulled a U-turn and landed in Albury and he laughed and he laughed and he laughed.

Back about the same time, the money making Airservices decided pilots had to pay for the phone call to contact the Briefing Office and arranged for phone cards to be sold so pilots could use them in remote locations. The safety case was taken over to the people at CASA and they were told in no uncertain terms this is none of your business, we are required to charge for our services so the safety case is just for your information. CASA apparently did not argue the safety effect of charging but rather asked what the back up was for this new 1-800 number. Not our problem says Airservices, we pay Telstra for a service so it up to them.

Shortly afterward the pavement was dug up close to the Canberra Casino in Allara Street near the access path to the Airservices Building. Cut the cable, no 1-800 briefing, no backup and it took days to fix, if I recall correctly.

I'm fascinated that Airservices are seriously intending their first remote, electronic tower is going into WSI, not a minor regional airport but a seriously busy one in the biggest city in our nation.
Just as intrigued that they are not making this installation even on airport with some limited form of look out the window vision even as a backup.
Amazed that this is a location where even a minor failure is going to have delay repercussions on traffic all over the country.
WOW, some big cajones here.

Like the hugely experienced Geoff Fairless wrote above, I'm retired too, "So many questions".

I just hope AsA really does their homework on the safety case, the FMEA, the redundancies etc on this one..... or as another expert ex-FSO on here says: WOT CUD POSIBLY GO RONG...???

The crow has been flying longer than any of us - no wonder he screams PHARQUE

[markis10]

I think London City was a good place to start.

No VFR circuit traffic, London (apparently the best in the world) approach/departures control, one runway, small PPR parking area.
High speed internet circuit between London and Swanwick, satisfying the 1 second video latency requirement.

None of that applies to either Ballina, West Sydney Airport or Hamilton Island, two of which will be Class D

Geoff, as a former ATC (short term course 69) who subsequently enjoyed a career in IT/telco, I can assure you 1 second latency isn’t an issue, geographically diverse fibre back to the DC is easy and probably already in place. No way such a link would be internet based.
In fact the centre could be 300000km away and still be in spec.

Like others I do have concerns over execution though.

[compressor stall]

If it’s an off the shelf product as proven in LCY etc then can’t see the issue.

If it’s new tech commissioned by ASA….. then all bets are off.

[601]

In theory, could the "controllers" work from home?

[Track Shortener]

An article (from early in the pandemic when WFH suddenly became mainstream) explaining several reasons why it wouldn't be practical for operational ATC:

https://ifisa.info/air-traffic-control-in-home-office/

[ER_BN]

In theory, could the "controllers" work from Bangalore?

You know “ your transmission is valuable to us “……….

Hang on that sounds like TIBA… :)

[hiltonbaby]

What chance is there they have 11 controllers that applied and are able to be released. 8/10ths of...........

[missy]

What chance is there they have 11 controllers that applied and are able to be released. 8/10ths of...........
I reckon Western Sydney Airport has more chance of getting 11 Tower ATCs than AsA.

[missy]

From today's SMH (thanks AD)
A major airport devoid of a control tower is like a cathedral denied a spire.

[Deaf]

In fact the centre could be 300000km away and still be in spec.

Speed of light in fibre is approx speed of light in vacuum/refractive index

[Willoz269]

It is far more widely used in Europe than most people think...and expanding rapidly. I believe Canberra will be the first digital tower in Australia but I could be wrong.
https://youtu.be/NOOCu-I1NgI?si=c_VnnirKfhGAMm29

[Gne]

A reasonable coverage of the state of the technology today. I notice the model proposed for West Sydney didn't feature but a couple of working operational examples were well presented.

When I visited the Heathrow facility last year the controllers were full of praise for the "extras" such as glare removal, seeing "through" terminals and the ability to know exactly when an aircraft was "clear" of the runway so a landing clearance for the following aircraft could be issued.

Shame about the delays in FAA land - but that seems to be par for the course with adoption of new technology there. Old hands will remember that TAAATS, for all its quirks and faults, had ADS/C and CPDLC available at operational consoles well before their counterparts in Oakland.

Gne

[Hempy]

I'm retired so I probably do not have access to the required separation standards; however,

Camera images are not visual separation as defined by any manuals I have access to, the usefulness of a control tower is (was) all about visual separation.
Radar separation between successive aircraft is 3NM, typically visual separation can accommodate close approaches, successive departures on diverging tracks, and go-arounds until a radar standard can be applied.
Eyeball separation has no tolerances applied to the image in the controller's brain. The eye is presumed to have an uninterrupted power supply, is backed up by the eyes of other tower controllers, has an advanced display system called the retina, and an advanced intelligence system attached that can instantly detect a subtle deviation from the cleared flightpath or taxiway. What tolerances will be applied to artificially generated images shown to a controller on a television screen? The new services will also be classed as screen-based, hence subject to the screen break requirements for the controllers = more controllers.

I love the identification capabilities of the camera system, but, once again, does the aircraft have to squawk ident to ensure the label is correct?
So many questions.......
To Airservices it's an AIP amendment.

[ER_BN]

Rumour has it Airservices has advertised internally for expressions of interest to work at WSI “Tower”.

Two different sources have suggested that holding a Tower Rating is now not required???

Well what do you expect, its not a TWR!

A more realistic solution would be to get the staff from ESI Tower (real Tower), oh hang on Airservices can either staff WSI or ESI but not both!! Yikes!

To facilitate noise sharing and utilise staff at SY to the max, (well they are making > $$$$ 1/2 million, every hour will be divide into 15 min sections WSI Departures 0000 - 0015 (tel:0000 - 0015), ESI Arrivals 0015 - 0030 (tel:0015 - 0030), WSI Arrivals 0030 - 0045 (tel:0030 - 0045) and ESI Departures 0045-0100 (tel:0045-0100).

Everyone happy! Bewdiful!!!! Bob’s your uncle…Bound to work??

[hmmmitsjustme]

There's an internal ad for EOI to SY tower, I haven't seen the WSI one. No tower rating required "Appropriate training will be provided should you be required or wish to cross domains or streams."

Interesting, I guess they're finally seeing the writing on the wall and giving up on getting staff from the TCU across to the tower. I know of a couple of NZ controllers that want to come to SY, but the best AsA could offer them was BK. Maybe get them back on the phone...?