Handley Page Type O

[Gary cw]

Good morning
I have been researching the Handley page type 0 for the last 20 years collecting information.
The more I have the more it is quite clear it is the most important and influential in aviation history.
If anyone has any information they could send me that would be very helpful.
If anyone would like any information I am happy to share.
Gary

[Asturias56]

"The more I have the more it is quite clear it is the most important and influential in aviation history."

thats an nteresting claim - I must have missed something?

[Gary cw]

Good evening
just to start a few things off with the Handley page

1 - first aircraft to have a ' specification' as to what was wanted. I think you will agree it's something that ' took off '
2- the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before
3 - in order to get an engine George Sutter had the idea to go to a car maker for the engines as all the aircraft engine manufacturers were busy. The car manufacturer said no. They only made water cooled engines not air-cooled engines for aircraft. But after pressuring the car maker they relented and said ok we will make you an aircraft engine but it will have to be water cooled. I assume you have heard of Rolls Royce... This is how rolls Royce aero started.
4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )
5 - next the came up with a thing called an overhead cam. ( Yes there was a mercedes racing car left behind at a racetrack.) But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam. You probably have one in your car even now ?
6 - however Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.
7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.
8 - just to give you a feel for the sheer size of this plane it's bigger than a Boeing 737/500. The Boeing has a wingspan of about 96 feet the Handley page is 100feet.

That will do for a start I can go on for pages let me know what you think so far

Gary

I am very sorry if I have upset anyone. But my understanding is that the epicyclic gearing was in fact patented by Rolls Royce. If anyone believes it was ' invented' before please let me know. I can change my details. Going back to the patent it would not have been approved as a patent if it already existed.

As to Development Sopwith and DH had been mentioned. Sopwith I believe kicked out 50 designs in WW1 which is 1 every 4 weeks. I would suggest development in such a short timescale simply isn't possible. It took over a year for the Handley page to take it's first flight and some time later to get it dead right.

​​​​​​As to the overhead cam I again believe it was mercedes who first put an overhead cam in their racing car which was left at brooklands at the start of the war. I would suggest that as rolls Royce didn't race cars they were probably simply unaware of it. If it was to be if interest I believe Aston Martin Vauxhall and a few other car manufacturers would have had more interest in it than Rolls Royce.

Once again I apologise if you find me condescending it most certainly isn't my intention. Everything I have said I have documentary evidence off. That doesn't mean it is correct which is why I am asking questions on this forum.

Lastly as a new member I don't yet have the ability to contact you all individually as I would like to

​​​​​​Many thanks

Gary

[treadigraph]

Recalled there a group named "Bloody Paralyser" formed to build a flying replica in the 1980s - I've wondered several times what happened and just found it - G-BKMG which is still registered - and work seems to still be happening at least on a non flying second version:

https://www.key.aero/article/legacy-bloody-paralyser

https://www.edp24.co.uk/lifestyle/20626984.see-replica-first-world-war-plane-built-norfolk-garage/

[DHfan]

"The more I have the more it is quite clear it is the most important and influential in aviation history."

thats an nteresting claim - I must have missed something?

My sentiments entirely. I would have thought quite the opposite.

[TURIN]

Good evening
just to start a few things off with the Handley page

1 - first aircraft to have a ' specification' as to what was wanted. I think you will agree it's something that ' took off '
2- the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before
3 - in order to get an engine George Sutter had the idea to go to a car maker for the engines as all the aircraft engine manufacturers were busy. The car manufacturer said no. They only made water cooled engines not air-cooled engines for aircraft. But after pressuring the car maker they relented and said ok we will make you an aircraft engine but it will have to be water cooled. I assume you have heard of Rolls Royce... This is how rolls Royce aero started.
4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )
5 - next the came up with a thing called an overhead cam. ( Yes there was a mercedes racing car left behind at a racetrack.) But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam. You probably have one in your car even now ?
6 - however Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.
7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.
8 - just to give you a feel for the sheer size of this plane it's bigger than a Boeing 737/500. The Boeing has a wingspan of about 96 feet the Handley page is 100feet.

That will do for a start I can go on for pages let me know what you think so far

Gary
5- next they cam
What I think so far is if you continue to be this condescending in future posts you're going to get absolutely rinsed.

[DHfan]

Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.

Rubbish. Drivel even.

[Quemerford]

"But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam."

The Peugeot 500 M motorcycle of 1913 pre-dates this. Peugeot was also designing road cars to use it.

I also take issue with the "first aircraft designed to a Spec" and the "developed" claim. I think the DH.6 may be the first of the former (and other aircraft involved in RFC trainer requirements), and the latter applies to any aircraft which made it past first flight pretty much.

First V12 was 1904, according to the albeit dodgy Wiki. At least three more were developed pre-war and all can be claimed as 'production' engines (i.e. not experimental, and made in numbers for commercial sale). A definition of 'production' for the R-R engine would have to be based on some contrived criteria.

It's an interesting topic, but the "O" series should be considered as interesting and pivotal types without the need for hyperbole.

[Quemerford]

6 - however Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.


My old Humber Sceptre had epicyclic gearing in its J-Type Laycock de Normanville overdrive. That was a 1974-vintage car but I can't think of anything that uses it now.

[DHfan]

I also had three cars with overdrive in the seventies. No other car or motorcycle I've ever owned has had epicyclic gearing. I believe automatic gearboxes use epicyclic gearing, but I've never owned one.
Wiki again, dates the invention back a couple of thousand years. Taking that with the customary pinch of salt, it still predates R-R by many hundreds of years.

[Asturias56]

I'm not against enthusiasts and not even mono-maniacs but I think a wider view would suggest that many of those "firsts" may only be in the UK

There was lots of parallel develoments going on in avaition at that time

Statements such as "the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before" are simply wrong - look at the development of all those WW1 de havillands, or Sopwiths, or....................

[DHfan]

Yes there was a mercedes racing car left behind at a racetrack.

Strange interpretation of left behind.

It won the 1914 French Grand Prix.

It's years since I read Sir Geoffrey de Havilland's autobiography, Sky Fever, but I have an idea he mentioned searching out straight-grained timber in 1908-09 to build his first or possibly second aeroplane.

[meleagertoo]

The RAES archive has a couple of fascinating lectures on development of the Handley Page 'large aircraft'.
Sir Frederick was undoubtably a gisted visionary who thought way outside the box and on a vastly larger scale athan anyone else at the time (possibly excepting the genius Sikorsky, and if so Sir Fred was in the most illustrious company indeed), and the aircraft were hugely influential and revolutionary in many ways.

[Allan Lupton]

4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )

​​​​​​As to the overhead cam I again believe it was mercedes who first put an overhead cam in their racing car which was left at brooklands at the start of the war. I would suggest that as rolls Royce didn't race cars they were probably simply unaware of it. If it was to be if interest I believe Aston Martin Vauxhall and a few other car manufacturers would have had more interest in it than Rolls Royce.

The only thing in common between the RR Ghost engine and the Hawk is the number of cylinders. The Ghost is a cast iron side-valve engine and the Hawk is a fabricated separate-cylinder with overhead valves and camshaft. Doubling up for a V12 does not change that
As for Daimler (Mercedes) being the first OHC in 1914, Pomeroy's book "The Grand Prix Car" tells us that the 1912 Peugeot and the 1911 FIAT were OHC. The presumption that as RR did not race they would not have taken any interest in developments of racing engines is just as improbable

Edit to ask: what did the epicyclic control gear you are thinking of control?

[DHfan]

But my understanding is that the epicyclic gearing was in fact patented by Rolls Royce. If anyone believes it was ' invented' before please let me know. I can change my details. Going back to the patent it would not have been approved as a patent if it already existed.

I don't "believe" it was invented beforehand, I know it was. I've no idea what Rolls-Royce patented but even discounting the Greeks and Romans 2,000 years ago, Frederick Lanchester used an epicyclic gearbox in his first car built in 1895. You've probably never heard of him but he was a brilliant engineer, innovator/inventor and designer, more so in my opinion than Royce who was a brilliant development engineer. Royce even described himself as a mechanic.

[Quemerford]

Going back to the patent it would not have been approved as a patent if it already existed.


This is misleading: a patent can be approved for something that already exists; it is not a statement of originality. What you may mean is that a patent would not have been approved if it had already been patented. Even then, this is not entirely true: I can patent the use of something as a toothpaste but it could be patented by someone else for a different function.

[Jhieminga]

Everything I have said I have documentary evidence off. That doesn't mean it is correct which is why I am asking questions on this forum.

Gary, I for one do not quite see where you are asking questions. You started out with a bold statement, continued to support this by further statements but to you it feels like you're asking questions. I think this thread could have gotten off to a very different start if you had opened with a question. "I get the impression that the Handley Page O/400 is quite an influential and important type... what do you think?" would have been an option.

Boldly stating that something is 'the most important' is always a bad idea, as you're measuring this against your own yardstick and unilaterally declaring a winner. I can think of several types, but also several different yardsticks, and discussing these would be interesting but no doubt we would not end up with the same result that you got. The history of aviation is a long one with several influential types in it, but also with many different paths that lead to where we are now. The O/400 played a part in this, many others have done their best to quantify this and evaluate this influence, discarding all that in one fell swoop is not really fair to those others. At least acknowledge these other views, it's better for the tone of the discussion.

[Gary cw]

Gary, I for one do not quite see where you are asking questions. You started out with a bold statement, continued to support this by further statements but to you it feels like you're asking questions. I think this thread could have gotten off to a very different start if you had opened with a question. "I get the impression that the Handley Page O/400 is quite an influential and important type... what do you think?" would have been an option.

Boldly stating that something is 'the most important' is always a bad idea, as you're measuring this against your own yardstick and unilaterally declaring a winner. I can think of several types, but also several different yardsticks, and discussing these would be interesting but no doubt we would not end up with the same result that you got. The history of aviation is a long one with several influential types in it, but also with many different paths that lead to where we are now. The O/400 played a part in this, many others have done their best to quantify this and evaluate this influence, discarding all that in one fell swoop is not really fair to those others. At least acknowledge these other views, it's better for the tone of the discussion.

The only thing in common between the RR Ghost engine and the Hawk is the number of cylinders. The Ghost is a cast iron side-valve engine and the Hawk is a fabricated separate-cylinder with overhead valves and camshaft. Doubling up for a V12 does not change that
As for Daimler (Mercedes) being the first OHC in 1914, Pomeroy's book "The Grand Prix Car" tells us that the 1912 Peugeot and the 1911 FIAT were OHC. The presumption that as RR did not race they would not have taken any interest in developments of racing engines is just as improbable

Edit to ask: what did the epicyclic control gear you are thinking of control?
Good afternoon

Many thanks for the reply. The 2 ghost engines were combined to produce the Eagle engine
As to the gearing I believe it was to reduce the crank revolutions for the propeller

Many thanks

Gary

[Gary cw]

Rubbish. Drivel even.

Good afternoon.
I am simply repeating that Rolls Royce were particularly pleased with the epicyclic control gear.
I would suggest if that is what Rolls Royce thought it is Probably quite good

Many thanks

Gary

[Gary cw]

This is misleading: a patent can be approved for something that already exists; it is not a statement of originality. What you may mean is that a patent would not have been approved if it had already been patented. Even then, this is not entirely true: I can patent the use of something as a toothpaste but it could be patented by someone else for a different function.

Not really sure how to answer this one.i have a fair understanding of patents as I had 2 in my name.
but it's easy enough to look up on Google

Many thanks
Gary

[DHfan]

7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.

Although I was actually looking to see if an early copy of The Aeroplane was available, I found a book on the Internet Archive called Building and Flying an Aeroplane, published in Chicago in 1912.
I quote: "...must be straight-grained and perfectly free from knots and other defects".

BTW Handley Page, not page.

[DHfan]

Good afternoon.
I am simply repeating that Rolls Royce were particularly pleased with the epicyclic control gear.
I would suggest if that is what Rolls Royce thought it is Probably quite good

Many thanks

Gary

The drivel was regarding your assertion that epicyclic gearing was in virtually every gearbox and engine in the world, which is absolute rubbish, or if you prefer - just plain wrong.

[Allan Lupton]

Good afternoon.
I am simply repeating that Rolls Royce were particularly pleased with the epicyclic control gear.
I would suggest if that is what Rolls Royce thought it is Probably quite good

Many thanks

Gary

Good afternoon
Many thanks for the reply. The 2 ghost engines were combined to produce the Eagle engine
As to the gearing I believe it was to reduce the crank revolutions for the propeller

It would help if you tried to understand what the rest of us have written. As I wrote before, the Ghost engine was a cast-iron sidevalve and the Hawk (and therefore its derivative, the Eagle) was a separate-cylinder fabricated engine with overhead valves and camshafts. Those engines did not have a reduction gear, and the much later RR engines that did were not epicyclic gears. A reduction gear is not a control gear and my earlier question asked what control gear you referred to.

[DHfan]

Much to my surprise, according to Wiki, the Rolls-Royce Falcon did have an epicyclic reduction gear. I know they're pretty much standard on radials but it's the first I've heard of one on an inline engine.

[Gary cw]

It would help if you tried to understand what the rest of us have written. As I wrote before, the Ghost engine was a cast-iron sidevalve and the Hawk (and therefore its derivative, the Eagle) was a separate-cylinder fabricated engine with overhead valves and camshafts. Those engines did not have a reduction gear, and the much later RR engines that did were not epicyclic gears. A reduction gear is not a control gear and my earlier question asked what control gear you referred to.
good morning
Many thanks for the comment. I can only repeat what the documentation I have has stated. Allegedly RR put 2 ghost engines together to make a V12. Wether that was 2 actual engines or the internal specifications I don't know.. It is simply what I have read in a document in my possession. In the process they patented what they called an epicyclic control gear. Maybe it ment something different then I simply don't know. If you ' google' epicyclic control gear' it would immediately point you towards planetary gearing.
As to wether or not the eagle engine actually had a reduction gear I would suggest that as the propeller on the Handley page was enormous ( something in the range of 10 to 12 feet from memory) I would suggest the engine spinning at about 1400 rpm it would certainly need a reduction gear.
and if you look at any eagle engine pictures it looks to me suspiciously like a gearbox between engine and prop.

Many thanks
Gary

[Jhieminga]

My copy of 'British Piston Aero-Engines' agrees with Wiki:
FALCON I, 230 hp, (1916-17), 'Rolls-Royce 190 hp, Mk I', 12-cylinder, upright 60-degree Vee water-cooled, poppet-valve (two- valve engine), Bore/stroke 4 × 5.75in (101.6 × 146.0 mm). Vol. 866.5 cu in. (14.2 litre). Compression ratio 5.15:1, geared, epicyclic .589:1, R.H./L.H. tractor-drive. (Engines with even serial numbers were L.H. tractor but the great majority built were R.H., with odd numbers .) Two Watford magnetos, two Duplex 34 mm Claudel- Hobson carburettors, feeding three-cylinder inlet manifolds. 250 built at Derby and by Brazil Straker. Length 68.0 in; width 40.3 in; height 37.2 in.

I am very sorry if I have upset anyone. But my understanding is that the epicyclic gearing was in fact patented by Rolls Royce. If anyone believes it was ' invented' before please let me know. I can change my details. Going back to the patent it would not have been approved as a patent if it already existed.
From Wiki:
Epicyclic gearing was used in the Antikythera Mechanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_Mechanism), circa 80 BCE
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing

[DHfan]

Bill Gunston's World Encyclopedia of Aero Engines confirms everybody except the OP's views.

There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle or any other Rolls-Royce aero engine. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.


Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.

Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.

The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.

I assume everybody knows or would realise that the aforementioned Lieutenant Bentley was THE Bentley...

[Noyade]

What did the Baron think of the O/100?


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x278/scan1561_4646968c5e9baa12e58e79e29ef14458adc3a391.jpg

[Gary cw]

Bill Gunston's World Encyclopedia of Aero Engines confirms everybody except the OP's views.

There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.


Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.

Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.

The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.

Thank you for that detail I will add it to my collection.

[DaveReidUK]

Thank you for that detail I will add it to my collection.

... of dissenting views ?

[Load Toad]

It is always worth checking out Rex's Hanger on that YouTube:

Rex's Hanger

[Blackfriar]

Bill Gunston's World Encyclopedia of Aero Engines confirms everybody except the OP's views.

There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle or any other Rolls-Royce aero engine. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.


Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.

Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.

The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.

I assume everybody knows or would realise that the aforementioned Lieutenant Bentley was THE Bentley...

Gosh, we are at war with Germany and Royce is being careful not to infringe any Mercedes patents. It’s a wonder we won at all.

[Gary cw]

... of dissenting views ?

Many thanks for your reply. Indeed. I think people forget history can be re-written many times. I have stated I have documentary evidence of all I have said. That doesn't mean it is correct in exactly the same way as it doesn't make other people's views correct. BUT if I can get enough ' differing views' it may be possible to come up with something that is probably correct.

It can be a little difficult reading some of the comments but I fully stand by my statement that it is the most influential aircraft in history. Caused enough dissent already and in the timeline the plane hasn't even got of the ground yet. Still pages of ' firsts' to go.

[Asturias56]

It's worth remembering than many UK Schools and colleges list the German war dead as well as the Allied dead on their WW1 memorial boards - it wasn't an "ideological" war - more like an 18th & 19th Century one

[DHfan]

Gosh, we are at war with Germany and Royce is being careful not to infringe any Mercedes patents. It’s a wonder we won at all.

That caused me to raise my eyebrows too but on reflection, it was literally the first few days of a war of unknown duration. Nobody knew if the phrase "it will all be over by Christmas" might have been true.