EC-130 Crash California

[Pilot DAR]

CNN is reporting the crash of an EC 130 in California, with six fatalities. Not much detail yet...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/10/us/mojave-helicopter-crash/index.html

[Fun_police]

That’s bad news…

I have driven between L.V. and Barstow CA quite a few times and there really isn’t much out there where this occurrence took place. Also given the weather that CA has been getting recently a dark night would be very dark…

[retoocs]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/helicopter-crashes-california-6-people-onboard-rcna138224

Nigerian Bank CEO was one of those killed.

Weather showed rain and snow in the area near the border.

[malabo]

Pilot and "safety pilot", flying a VFR B4 through mountains, at night, in weather, with Nigerian bankers on board. Is this real or a Darcy Hoover novel?

"Flight-tracking data shows the helicopter was travelling along the interstate about 1,000 to 1,500 feet (304.80 to 457.20 metres) above ground level, Graham said during a Sunday news conference. The aircraft made a slight right turn, turning south of the roadway, and the data then shows a gradual descent and increasing ground speed.

The wreckage site shows that helicopter hit the ground with its nose low at a right-bank angle, Graham said, adding that meteorologists have confirmed the weather included precipitation. The debris field was about 100 yards (91.44 metres) long."

[tottigol]

I'll ask Darcy.

[212man]

One of my friends, who runs an Aviation Safety consultancy business, based in Lagos, said he approached this bank last year to brief them on the merits of using Travel Risk Assessments for staff, but they were not interested. The word 'schadenfreude' has crossed his mind........

[JimEli]

CNN is reporting the crash of an EC 130 in California, with six fatalities. Not much detail yet...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/10/us/mojave-helicopter-crash/index.html "National Transportation Safety Board member Michael Graham said at a news conference Saturday night. All six people on board — the pilot-in-command, a safety pilot and four passengers — were killed, Graham said."
safety pilot?
I see a can of worms here.

[[email protected]]

I don't think 212 man mentioned getting pleasure from someone dying but perhaps Karma would be more appropriate.

[Gordy]

"National Transportation Safety Board member Michael Graham said at a news conference Saturday night. All six people on board — the pilot-in-command, a safety pilot and four passengers — were killed, Graham said."
safety pilot?
I see a can of worms here.
No can of worms.

Many "A" r "B" list types use agencis to find them charters these days---especially in the LA basin. Often times they require 2 pilots---hence the term "Safety Pilot" or some companies merely call it a "Pilots assistant" as technically only one person can log the time if the tyupe certificate does not require 2 pilots.

It is a common practice.

[Robbiee]

I have driven this route. No way in Hell I'd fly it at night in a VFR only helicopter!

I had my fill of night over the desert when I flew an R22 with my instructor from Scottsdale, AZ to Long Beach, CA two nights before my PPL checkride, and the night before that from Scottsdale to Tuscon, AZ, where I started to get disorientated just before the lights of Tuscon saved me.

[JimEli]

No can of worms.
...
It is a common practice.What exactly is the function and/or duty of the “pilot assistant”? Monitor PIC heart rate and respiration? Twiddle thumbs? Distract the PIC? Can the assistant manipulate controls? What training (CRM) has/needs to be accomplished to operate with or as an assistant pilot? Does the operator have an SOP for this operating environment?

[FH1100 Pilot]

What exactly is the function and/or duty of the “pilot assistant”? Monitor PIC heart rate and respiration? Twiddle thumbs? Distract the PIC? Can the assistant manipulate controls? What training (CRM) has/needs to be accomplished to operate with or as an assistant pilot? Does the operator have an SOP for this operating environment?
No, Jim. The "safety pilot" is merely a sandbag. He probably has a rating but has too few hours to be considered a PIC. So he rides along on flight where the customer requests/requires two pilots. At the destination, he hops out and unloads the pax and bags and makes sure nobody walks into the tail rotor (if it has one). If he's wearing a white shirt and epaulets, the customer won't ever know that he's not a fully-qualified Part-135 captain. If he's lucky, the return leg is empty and he actually can log some stick-time. I did this quite a lot in my younger days. I'm sure people still do. At the end of the day, it's still a single-pilot operation, and the PIC is the guy-in-charge, just as if the other guy wasn't there at all.

[JimEli]

No, Jim. The "safety pilot" is merely a sandbag. He probably has a rating but has too few hours to be considered a PIC. So he rides along on flight where the customer requests/requires two pilots. At the destination, he hops out and unloads the pax and bags and makes sure nobody walks into the tail rotor (if it has one). If he's wearing a white shirt and epaulets, the customer won't ever know that he's not a fully-qualified Part-135 captain. If he's lucky, the return leg is empty and he actually can log some stick-time. I did this quite a lot in my younger days. I'm sure people still do. At the end of the day, it's still a single-pilot operation, and the PIC is the guy-in-charge, just as if the other guy wasn't there at all.

What's the purpose of requiring a sandbag? It doesn't appear to have benefitted the flight in question (incidental contributing factor?).

[malabo]

Yep, pprune is a rough sandbox.

LA basin has had its share of dead rich guys riding helicopters. Like 212man points out, where's the operational risk assessment and control on these type of charters?

Did the PIC have single-pilot night IFR experience in an unstabilized helicopter? How often did he practise inadvertent IMC low-level: check heading, climb 500', 180 turn, wait 30 seconds, descend? Those of us with that kind of experience tell me "hell no". Give me a de-iced 139 and I'll think about it.

They took the long way 'round, maintaining VFR, 1000-1500' above terrain, so they were thinking about it...

The "safety pilot" thing isn't completely new. Didn't Australia fly EMS 139 with a "qualified crewman" without even a license in the left seat? Some rich guys with their own helicopter and a license wisely bring along someone that knows what they're doing, done that. Still trying to wrap my mind around this operation being normalized from a regulator/flight safety perspective.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1013x910/img_0452_7492226cb4141f62f5a3cebd0579967b543747eb.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/830x1280/img_0454_282c471db1b07d0b68be818b5dc95a71f1099a22.jpeg

Hit the ground 4 miles from the I-15 we think they were trying to follow, big oops.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1115/img_0459_8a20165d33c263d4f70e2271845015c896b4c985.jpeg

[Hot and Hi]

"Flight-tracking data shows the helicopter was travelling along the interstate about 1,000 to 1,500 feet (304.80 to 457.20 metres) above ground level, Graham said during a Sunday news conference. The aircraft made a slight right turn, turning south of the roadway, and the data then shows a gradual descent and increasing ground speed.

The wreckage site shows that helicopter hit the ground with its nose low at a right-bank angle, Graham said, adding that meteorologists have confirmed the weather included precipitation. The debris field was about 100 yards (91.44 metres) long."

How difficult can it be - while looking at a wide synthetic vision screen - to maintain a safe height AGL and a constant speed?

[[email protected]]

How difficult can it be - while looking at a wide synthetic vision screen - to maintain a safe height AGL and a constant speed?

Disorientation.

[JimEli]

Disorientation.

4 years and a few days past the N72EX accident (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/638330-n72ex-kobe-bryant-crash-update.html). How quickly we forget?

[verticalspin]

The USMC CH-53 (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/657452-usmc-ch-53e-missing-6-feb-24-a.html) crash happened almost on the exact same day as the S-76 crash 4 years ago and just a few days prior to the EC130 this month. All 3 weather/decision making related in mountainous terrain.

[Robbiee]

How difficult can it be - while looking at a wide synthetic vision screen - to maintain a safe height AGL and a constant speed?

Unless you're prepared to do so?

Very!

[Gordy]

What exactly is the function and/or duty of the “pilot assistant”? Monitor PIC heart rate and respiration? Twiddle thumbs? Distract the PIC? Can the assistant manipulate controls? What training (CRM) has/needs to be accomplished to operate with or as an assistant pilot? Does the operator have an SOP for this operating environment?
So I guess it depends on the organization. The one I was involved with, the 2nd pilot was a rated pilot with a 135 checkride in the aircraft---either pilot could have flown the flight. Yes they were traiend on 2 pilot operations under our SOP. One would be polt flying, the other was PNF just like the airlines.
I canot speak for the operator involved in this accident as I do not know.

[JimEli]

So I guess it depends on the organization. The one I was involved with, the 2nd pilot was a rated pilot with a 135 checkride in the aircraft---either pilot could have flown the flight. Yes they were traiend on 2 pilot operations under our SOP. One would be polt flying, the other was PNF just like the airlines.
I canot speak for the operator involved in this accident as I do not know.

Thanks for the answer Gordy. Do you think your experience is more the norm or exception in the industry?

[Agile]

What's the purpose of requiring a sandbag? It doesn't appear to have benefitted the flight in question (incidental contributing factor?).it makes perfect sense to me, when I get the family onboard, I always try to have somebody in the copilot seat that can land the aircraft in case I get suddenly disabled.

I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.

[Robbiee]

it makes perfect sense to me, when I get the family onboard, I always try to have somebody in the copilot seat that can land the aircraft in case I get suddenly disabled.

I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.

Hmm, just how many accidents each year are there due to single pilot incapacitation?

[SLFMS]

Damn it, I just transferred $8000 to an account so I could collect my lottery winnings. I haven’t heard from them since the transfer it must have been this banker flying to get my winings.

How am I going to get my 20mil now?

[JimEli]

it makes perfect sense to me, when I get the family onboard, I always try to have somebody in the copilot seat that can land the aircraft in case I get suddenly disabled.
...


Just curious, do you have dual controls in your car?

For those interested, here's a report on pilot incapacitaion (https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/3395.pdf): "It is noteworthy that 6 out of 16 episodes were attributed to psychiatric causes and another 5 were the result of nonspecific symptoms that may have had psychiatric contributing factors."

[meleagertoo]

My experience of two-pilot light helo charters is that its driven by a complete absence of understanding of flight safety by the customer who demands it.
Some companies' policy requires their staff to be flown by two pilots and some indiciduals insist on it simply based on the false and unsubstantiated assumption that two must be safer than one. In all the flights I was involved in the 'other' pilot was a fully qualified line pilot just like the Captain but of course neither were trained or experienced in two-pilot ops, and on a couple of occasions there were CRM issues (one so serious that I declined to operate) that significantly compromised flight safety. Putting two single-pilot pilots together is a recipe for trouble and imho completely unacceptable. Include a non-pilot ground handler by all means, just not two one-man band pilots.
God knows I've seen the other side too, in airlines even after extensive CRM and human factors training many ex fast jet pilots (oddly never the Navy ones...) have been utter nightmares to fly with - persisting in being a one-man-band and refusing to include the copilot in a meaningful way.
By all means include a suitable ground handler - but never another single-pilot pilot.

[Arcal76]

Pilots were 22 and 25.
They were trying to do their job and please the employer.
Did they have any clues about the huge risk involved ?
Scudding at low level at night is playing Russian roulette.
So many got the same situation, trying to please and progress without the knowledge of what was coming.
There is no real night training done in reality, you see the same thing in general aviation.
Companies should have very strict minimum for nights, you don`t scud, but money is always more important.
I am sure the next step for them is going to be interesting...

[Sir Korsky]

Pilots were 22 and 25.


It's likely there was no plan B or planned brief to stick to. That's one thing experience has taught me and that's stick to what was planned. It doesn't work all the time, but as soon as the doubt seed is planted, then I'm done. RIP fellas.

[Gordy]

Thanks for the answer Gordy. Do you think your experience is more the norm or exception in the industry?
Sadly, probably not the norm.

For those going on about "sandbags" and "dual controls" etc. A second pilot is not there to take over in case of incapacitition, although he could I suppose. He is there to assist with the workload---navigation, radios, terrain avoidance, weather decisions, and CRM.....

I am reminded of the joke about going fishing with Mormons---always invite 2 of them, that way they will not drink your beer, they watch out for each other.

[Hot and Hi]

4 years and a few days past the N72EX accident (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/638330-n72ex-kobe-bryant-crash-update.html). How quickly we forget?

I am sorry, I do not get the logic.


1. N72EX

This was gross pilot incompetence. Fully qualified (in terms of license, recency) IFR-rated pilot and instructor, in a full IFR machine. Refusing or unable to mentally transition from VFR to IFR flying. Or simply hand the controls to George. I mean, it can't be that when tomorrow I take Lufthansa from Frankfurt to Munich, the airliner crashes. And people say, really bad, they entered cloud, and didn't they remember there was 100 years ago this pilot who also suffered spatial disorientation.

It is simply unacceptable that so many commercially rated pilots betray their employers by not being able to display basic skills.


2. Synthetic Vision

I made this argument before on these pages, I reckon maybe exactly 4 years ago:

- A current IFR rated pilot should be able to keep the blue side up, even without external visual cues, based on a standard 6-pack.

- We agree that a regular VFR pilot may struggle to integrate the information from the 6-pack into a mental picture and might suffer from spatial disorientation if no external visual cues.

- That same regular VFR pilot again is very much able to keep the sunny side up, if provided with external visual cues. In doing so they look at a screen the size of their cockpit window (the "windscreen").

- If those transparencies were replaced by a computer screen of the same size, displaying the outside world, our regular VFR pilot would equally have no difficulties.


All the above I hope is generally accepted. My point therefore is: What is the minimum size of that computer screen, so that the pilot's brain perceives the external visual cues needed to effortlessly maintain orientation in space?

Those who answer "never" will struggle to explain why things miraculously fall into place, once the computer screen reaches the same size as the windscreen. Clearly, there is a tipping point. It may be larger than the display size of a GI275, but smaller than "full screen" (ie, size of the windscreen).

[wrench1]

This was gross pilot incompetence. Fully qualified (in terms of license, recency) IFR-rated pilot and instructor, in a full IFR machine. Refusing or unable to mentally transition from VFR to IFR flying. Or simply hand the controls to George.
Or it could simply be since the pilot of 72EX was the chief pilot of the charter company he knew they could only fly VFR legally, so he stayed "legal" and lost. Just like the company and pilots of the 130 here. Same story different day.

[JimEli]

...
- If those transparencies were replaced by a computer screen of the same size, displaying the outside world, our regular VFR pilot would equally have no difficulties.
...

A screen replacing the windshield is so 20 years ago. Try Elbit and Universal Avionics ClearVision/SkyLens

[malabo]

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/dark-skies-bad-weather-led-fatal-california-helicopter-107246498

I hate when the news media invokes night/weather as the cause of the crash. Operational control, management guidance, regulatory negligence. Do we as an industry really expect a couple of young R44 tour/instructor pilots to have the experience skill and judgement to attempt a night marginal weather flight through the mountains? Did anyone at Orbic have confidence that they'd be able to turn around and come home if things got dicey? And on what basis?

Looks like that B4 had a Garmin 430 and an iPad, plus that ancient sixpack, not that I think better instrumentation would have made any difference here at their level of relevant experience.

To an earlier question, no commercial operator I know in Canada flies a VFR machine with two pilots.

https://youtu.be/PFAc5sAWoas?si=9zxn6xy9Mvg1NUPX

[FH1100 Pilot]

It will come out in the NTSB report, of course, but I'd bet that the "safety pilot" in the EC130 was a freshly-rated pilot (perhaps not even IFR-rated) who was going along for the experience. Following roads is not always a guarantee of a safe arrival. Quick story: Once, back in the 1980's, very early in my career as a 135 pilot, I had to take a late-night trip from NYC to Atlantic City, New Jersey. Believe it or not, there is a lot of *nothing* in the middle of New Jersey. The weather was not great. My plan was to follow the Garden State Parkway, not the New Jersey Turnpike which would have made the trip longer. Long story short, there were big stretches of the "GSP" where there were *NO* cars. We're talking black, BLACK flying. I realized too late that I'd made the wrong choice and was in trouble. Holy crap, it was scary. And it became basically a low-level IFR flight until the lights of Atlantic City finally came into view. Still gives me shivers just thinking back on it. So I understand what those two boys in the EC130 were going through. Sadly, their flight ended more tragically than mine - mostly because I got lucky and they didn't, I suppose. Sometimes we pilots rely too much on luck.

[BFSGrad]

It will come out in the NTSB report, of course, but I'd bet that the "safety pilot" in the EC130 was a freshly-rated pilot (perhaps not even IFR-rated) who was going along for the experience.The FAA Airmen Registry shows both deceased pilots as commercial/instrument rated with 1st class medicals.

[nomorehelosforme]

it makes perfect sense to me, when I get the family onboard, I always try to have somebody in the copilot seat that can land the aircraft in case I get suddenly disabled.

I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.

Twice when I have requested a twin I never requested 2 pilots but on both occasions I got 2 pilots, possibly company policy? Both flights were out of Naples airport Italy

[Lala Steady]

Did that B4 have a rad alt? I wouldn't fly at night without one.

[wrench1]

Did that B4 have a rad alt? I wouldn't fly at night without one.
I would think so since 2017 or 2018 Part 135 required one. I'd be more curious if it had an inlet barrier filter or particle separator installed given the blowing snow at the time.

[Robbiee]

Did that B4 have a rad alt? I wouldn't fly at night without one.

Gee, I flew at night for years without one. As long as you avoid black holes and **** weather, you really don't need any fancy equipment at night. :8

[Robbiee]

It will come out in the NTSB report, of course, but I'd bet that the "safety pilot" in the EC130 was a freshly-rated pilot (perhaps not even IFR-rated) who was going along for the experience. Following roads is not always a guarantee of a safe arrival. Quick story: Once, back in the 1980's, very early in my career as a 135 pilot, I had to take a late-night trip from NYC to Atlantic City, New Jersey. Believe it or not, there is a lot of *nothing* in the middle of New Jersey. The weather was not great. My plan was to follow the Garden State Parkway, not the New Jersey Turnpike which would have made the trip longer. Long story short, there were big stretches of the "GSP" where there were *NO* cars. We're talking black, BLACK flying. I realized too late that I'd made the wrong choice and was in trouble. Holy crap, it was scary. And it became basically a low-level IFR flight until the lights of Atlantic City finally came into view. Still gives me shivers just thinking back on it. So I understand what those two boys in the EC130 were going through. Sadly, their flight ended more tragically than mine - mostly because I got lucky and they didn't, I suppose. Sometimes we pilots rely too much on luck.

Yeah, I got close to that one night over the desert just following I-10. Scary and disorientating pretty quick!

If there's one shortcoming to our training, its not teaching us to distinguish between VFR night and IFR night, or to simply look at the route on our charts and realize, "Gee, this area hear could easily turn into a black hole, I probably shouldn't do this flight, unless I can just do it all IFR".

[JimEli]

I would think so since 2017 or 2018 Part 135 required one. I'd be more curious if it had an inlet barrier filter or particle separator installed given the blowing snow at the time.

Interesting point, because I'm not seeing one in the video posted above (10/23/23), unless someone is aware of a device incorporating one?

§ 135.160 Radio altimeters for rotorcraft operations. (a) After April 24, 2017, no person may operate a rotorcraft unless that rotorcraft is equipped with an operable FAA-approved radio altimeter, or an FAA-approved device that incorporates a radio altimeter, unless otherwise authorized in the certificate holder's approved minimum equipment list.

[Rho Tarbled]

Gee, I flew at night for years without one. As long as you avoid black holes and **** weather, you really don't need any fancy equipment at night. :8

I think that is exactly the point.

[Nubian]

I would think so since 2017 or 2018 Part 135 required one. I'd be more curious if it had an inlet barrier filter or particle separator installed given the blowing snow at the time.

From pictures of the machine in question, it does not look like it had either.
listening to the NTSB press brief, the a/c impacted ground nose low in a right turn and trackingdata show an increase groundspeed before impact…
would be very surprised if the investiogation show an engine out scenario.

[Nubian]

Gee, I flew at night for years without one. As long as you avoid black holes and **** weather, you really don't need any fancy equipment at night. :8

Yes, and some argue that seatbelts can get you strangled as well:ugh:🤡

[JimEli]

I am sorry, I do not get the logic.

1. N72EX

This was gross pilot incompetence. Fully qualified (in terms of license, recency) IFR-rated pilot and instructor, in a full IFR machine. Refusing or unable to mentally transition from VFR to IFR flying. Or simply hand the controls to George.

…


Actually, I don't follow your logic. First, your reference to IFR; do you mean IMC?
Second, the National Transportation Safety Board determined the probable cause of the N72EX accident as:
1. The pilot's decision to continue flight under visual flight rules into instrument meteorological conditions which resulted in the pilot's spatial disorientation and loss of control.
2. Contributing to the accident was the pilot's likely self-induced pressure and the pilot's plan continuation bias which adversely affected his decision-making
3. And, Island Express Helicopter Inc's. inadequate review and oversight of its safety management process.

[Nubian]

Interesting point, because I'm not seeing one in the video posted above (10/23/23), unless someone is aware of a device incorporating one?

§ 135.160 Radio altimeters for rotorcraft operations. (a) After April 24, 2017, no person may operate a rotorcraft unless that rotorcraft is equipped with an operable FAA-approved radio altimeter, or an FAA-approved device that incorporates a radio altimeter, unless otherwise authorized in the certificate holder's approved minimum equipment list.

Does not look like it has Rad-alt installed. It has a turn and bank indicator, where you would normally have it installed on the B4

[Robbiee]

Yes, and some argue that seatbelts can get you strangled as well:ugh:🤡

Ah,...very good "apples to oranges" comparison. :D:}

[Hot and Hi]

[...] the National Transportation Safety Board determined the probable cause of the N72EX accident as:
1. The pilot's decision to continue flight under visual flight rules into instrument meteorological conditions which resulted in the pilot's spatial disorientation and loss of control.
2. Contributing to the accident was the pilot's likely self-induced pressure and the pilot's plan continuation bias which adversely affected his decision-making
3. And, Island Express Helicopter Inc's. inadequate review and oversight of its safety management process.


The reference to N72EX is valid, as we might find that in this mishap all three NTSB findings will apply again:

- Inability or refusal of the PIC to transition to IMC
- client or self-induced pressure
- Lack of oversight from the operator

I agree that the recent memory from the N72EX crash should have made it easier for the pilots in this case to realise the risk and therefore to decline the flight.

--

However, the potential icing risk aside (which in my case would have been the non-starter), do we at least agree that with proper equipment and proper skills this flight could safely have been conducted? We can't continue saying that the mission was impossible just because in the past other pilots who managed to stack all odds against them, failed.

As I had posted before, I am even going further, saying that this crew - finding themselves in this completely unnecessary situation - simply having a synthetic vision app (like Horizon from Helios Avionics, Garmin Pilot of Forelight) constantly running on a *second* tablet, would have allowed them to fly out of this mess, without particular IFR skills or RAD ALT.

I know many here don't like this idea and refuse to contemplate it, as having synthetic vision (arguably) creates a false sense of security and could induce inexperienced pilots to go in deeper than they should. But as a thought experiment we may well be allowed to discuss it here.

[Robbiee]

As I had posted before, I am even going further, saying that this crew - finding themselves in this completely unnecessary situation - simply having a synthetic vision app (like Horizon from Helios Avionics, Garmin Pilot of Forelight) constantly running on a *second* tablet, would have allowed them to fly out of this mess, without particular IFR skills or RAD ALT.

I know many here don't like this idea and refuse to contemplate it, as having synthetic vision (arguably) creates a false sense of security and could induce inexperienced pilots to go in deeper than they should. But as a thought experiment we may well be allowed to discuss it here.

Hmm,...another toy to try and be a bandaid fix for a pilot's poor decision making.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Does not look like it has Rad-alt installed. It has a turn and bank indicator, where you would normally have it installed on the B4
A radar altimeter need not be an analog gauge as we're used to. It can be a digital readout. A company called FreeFlight Systems markets one called the Tri-40.
FreeFlight TRI-40 | SEAEROSPACE.COM (https://www.seaerospace.com/sales/product/FreeFlight/TRI-40)

[megan]

a pilot's poor decision makingYou might think it poor decision making but why did the guy find himself in that position? He didn't plan on commiting suicide, as always there is a story behind the final act, error chain or swiss cheese if you like, nothing occurs in a vaccuum.

Malabo is correct when he posted "Operational control, management guidance, regulatory negligence. Do we as an industry really expect a couple of young R44 tour/instructor pilots to have the experience skill and judgement to attempt a night marginal weather flight through the mountains?"

Pity the bankers didn't opt for an IMC fixed wing, should have taken the merits of using Travel Risk Assessments talk mentioned by 212man.

[Hot and Hi]

Hmm,...another toy to try and be a bandaid fix for a pilot's poor decision making.

That's probably what they said a hundred years ago when somebody invented the gyro instruments that allowed the skilled pilot to determine their orientation in space without external visual cues.

As I said I know many here don't like this idea and refuse to contemplate it

However, we can't deny that it is out there. Thousands of helicopters are equipped with full glass panels including synthetic vision, either as OEM option, or as a recent panel upgrade.

[Robbiee]

You might think it poor decision making but why did the guy find himself in that position?

Malabo is correct when he posted "Operational control, management guidance, regulatory negligence. Do we as an industry really expect a couple of young R44 tour/instructor pilots to have the experience skill and judgement to attempt a night marginal weather flight through the mountains?"


That's interesting, as in the back of the R44 POH is a Safety Notice warning against flying at night in bad weather,...but then maybe those notices only apply when you're flying a Robby?

,...and he most likely found himself in that situation due to the old, "Get the job done" itis. Which is a leading driver in a pilots poor decision making.

[Robbiee]

That's probably what they said a hundred years ago when somebody invented the gyro instruments that allowed the skilled pilot to determine their orientation in space without external visual cues.

As I said

However, we can't deny that it is out there. Thousands of helicopters are equipped with full glass panels including synthetic vision, either as OEM option, or as a recent panel upgrade.

Its more like when they require an Instrument Rating to fly a VFR ONLY helicopter. It just gives the pilot an excuse (and the overconfidence) to poke the bear.


​​​

[Nubian]

Ah,...very good "apples to oranges" comparison. :D:}

Not when you refer to Rad-Alt as fancy equipment..

[Robbiee]

Not when you refer to Rad-Alt as fancy equipment..

Well, if it were as standard as seat belts, then I'd of seen one by now. :p

Besides,...if you need such a precise altimeter, then you probably shouldn't be flying VFR.

[Hot and Hi]

It just gives the pilot an excuse (and the overconfidence) to poke the bear.


​​​
However, the opposite is the case here. Our mishap pilots did *not* have synthetic vision. Yet “they poked the bear“.

We witnessed the loss of six lives. A family was wiped out. My claim is (post #15) that a simple synthetic vision app would have allowed them to get out of their predicament, without panic or disorientation.

This claim may, or may not, be valid. So far no reasons were give why this claim is wrong. We only hear that one mustn’t contemplate this idea.

We have to stop pontificating. Six lives could have been saved if it wasn’t for the “we don’t want VFR pilots to have those tools, as de jure they shouldn’t get themselves into a situation where having those tools could save their life.” Try explain this to Mr Wigwe’s family.

[Robbiee]

However, the opposite is the case here. Our mishap pilots did *not* have synthetic vision. Yet “they poked the bear“.

We witnessed the loss of six lives. A family was wiped out. My claim is (post #15) that a simple synthetic vision app would have allowed them to get out of their predicament, without panic or disorientation.

This claim may, or may not, be valid. So far no reasons were give why this claim is wrong. We only hear that one mustn’t contemplate this idea.

We have to stop pontificating. Six lives could have been saved if it wasn’t for the “we don’t want VFR pilots to have those tools, as de jure they shouldn’t get themselves into a situation where having those tools could save their life.” Try explain this to Mr Wigwe’s family.

He poked the bear due to the pressures of commercial flying. With that attitude, it doesn't matter what equipment you have, as your mindset is not in IFR, but VFR, hence the tendency to scudd-run regardless of your equipment.

Kobe's pilot (if I'm not mistaken) was flying a highly sophisticated IFR ship, yet still decided to "poke the bear" VFR, killing all on board,...and in the daytime no less!

​​​​​Just because a pilot has the fancy toys and training, doesn't mean they're gonna use them,...or be proficient in using them when the time comes.

We can have all the training/fancy toys/experience in the world, but in the end, we're all just human, and **** happens,...and will always "just happen".

[Hot and Hi]

Sure Robbie, all agreed. But I have a technical question. Not a moral one.

The thesis is that synthetic vision would allow to fly (at reasonable and safe heights above ground, and as far as spatial orientation and terrain clearance are concerned) in IMC as if your were in VMC, even without recourse to those technical and highly perishable skills required to integrate the information from various steam gauges into a mental picture about your position in space and in relation to the ground.

And the justification for this claim is that a synthetic vision screen large enough would be undistinguishable from the picture presented through the windscreen, the latter we all know allows regular VFR pilots to keep the blue side up by simply using external visual cues.

This is a priori a thought experiment, not a moral imperative.

[Nubian]

Well, if it were as standard as seat belts, then I'd of seen one by now. :p

Besides,...if you need such a precise altimeter, then you probably shouldn't be flying VFR.

Well, I think we should not use your experience as a guide to how common Rad-Alts are. If you would have flown other helicopters than the Robinsons, I am sure you would have seen one or two.

You can try flying in remote areas in the winter, extended over water or in low light conditions and you will appreciate the help you get from this fancy tool..

We can have all the training/fancy toys/experience in the world, but in the end, we're all just human, and **** happens,...and will always "just happen".

As for your last statement, I suggest you sign up for a basic course in SMS and Risk management, so as you say: **** will always just happen… maybe not happen after all…



This accident, didn´t just happen….

[Robbiee]

Sure Robbie, all agreed. But I have a technical question. Not a moral one.

The thesis is that synthetic vision would allow to fly (at reasonable and safe heights above ground, and as far as spatial orientation and terrain clearance are concerned) in IMC as if your were in VMC, even without recourse to those technical and highly perishable skills required to integrate the information from various steam gauges into a mental picture about your position in space and in relation to the ground.

And the justification for this claim is that a synthetic vision screen large enough would be undistinguishable from the picture presented through the windscreen, the latter we all know allows regular VFR pilots to keep the blue side up by simply using external visual cues.

This is a priori a thought experiment, not a moral imperative.

Well, plenty of pilots these days have an artificial horizon bigger than my first tv, yet still seem to fly perfectly capable aircraft into the ground when they can no longer see out the window.

Well, I think we should not use your experience as a guide to how common Rad-Alts are. If you would have flown other helicopters than the Robinsons, I am sure you would have seen one or two.

You can try flying in remote areas in the winter, extended over water or in low light conditions and you will appreciate the help you get from this fancy tool..



As for your last statement, I suggest you sign up for a basic course in SMS and Risk management, so as you say: **** will always just happen… maybe not happen after all…

​​​​​​This accident, didn´t just happen….

You're right, I'm not experienced enough to crash a helicopter big and new enough to have a rad-alt.

I have however, gone to several seminars on IIMC (including "Land and Live") over the years, read numerous accident reports involving night and bad weather, and attended a Factory Safety Course many times,...yet still almost killed myself going IIMC while scudd-running on a ferry flight.

So yeah,...**** does happen!

[megan]

still almost killed myself going IIMC while scudd-running on a ferry flightHow in theworld did you manage to get yourself in that position, besides overconfidence and poking the bear? It doesn't fall into the **** does happen.

[Robbiee]

How in theworld did you manage to get yourself in that position, besides overconfidence and poking the bear? It doesn't fall into the **** does happen.

I knew better but did it anyway, because I succumbed to the pressures of "Get the job done itis". That's practically the definition of, **** happens. Why else do you think pilots get themselves killed from bad decisions despite their level of training/experience/high-tech equipment.

[Nubian]

I knew better but did it anyway, because I succumbed to the pressures of "Get the job done itis". That's practically the definition of, **** happens. Why else do you think pilots get themselves killed from bad decisions despite their level of training/experience/high-tech equipment.

No, it is practically bad decision making based on lack of Risk awareness and management.

You say you read a lot of accident reports… Why bother if **** just happen!? Pointless waste of time then…

[OvertHawk]

"**** happens" is when a bird crashes through your window or a turbine blade fails at the wrong moment.

Going IIMC whilst scud running when you "know better but did it anyway" could not be further from "**** happens".

It's opening up the cupboard where they keep the **** and rubbing your own nose in it.

[[email protected]]

Besides,...if you need such a precise altimeter, then you probably shouldn't be flying VFR. That statement is utter tosh.

Just because you haven't seen or used one don't make such foolish remarks.

A rad alt has probably saved the lives of many pilots flying VFR.

​​​​​​​If you nearly killed yourself going IIMC when scud running, the only cause is poor decision making on your part - s*** happens is an excuse used by people who can't admit they were wrong.

[Robbiee]

That statement is utter tosh.

Just because you haven't seen or used one don't make such foolish remarks.

A rad alt has probably saved the lives of many pilots flying VFR.

If you nearly killed yourself going IIMC when scud running, the only cause is poor decision making on your part - s*** happens is an excuse used by people who can't admit they were wrong.

"**** happens" is when a bird crashes through your window or a turbine blade fails at the wrong moment.

Going IIMC whilst scud running when you "know better but did it anyway" could not be further from "**** happens".

It's opening up the cupboard where they keep the **** and rubbing your own nose in it.

No, it is practically bad decision making based on lack of Risk awareness and management.

You say you read a lot of accident reports… Why bother if **** just happen!? Pointless waste of time then…

​​​​​​​Well, you guys want to go on thinking you can control everything, fine, but they're called "accidents" for a reason, and if all your risk assessments, and fancy gadgets were all a pilot needed to not get themselves killed, then they'd of stopped by now.

[Lala Steady]

Well, you guys want to go on thinking you can control everything, fine, but they're called "accidents" for a reason, and if all your risk assessments, and fancy gadgets were all a pilot needed to not get themselves killed, then they'd of stopped by now. They haven't stopped because pilots keep on making crap decisions by thinking they are better than they are and will get away with it through superior skill.

[Robbiee]

They haven't stopped because pilots keep on making crap decisions by thinking they are better than they are and will get away with it through superior skill.

Really?

When I went scudd-running into IIMC it was without an Instrument Rating in an R44, so "thinking that my superior skill will allow me to get away with it" was the furthest thing from my mind!

In fact, what I was thinking was, "****, they're gonna find my dead body wearing a "Land and Live" cap. Damn, that's gonna be embarrassing!"

Sometimes good pilots just make bad decisions, and its generally just dumb luck when we survive to tell the tale.

[staticsource]

Really?

When I went scudd-running into IIMC it was without an Instrument Rating in an R44, so "thinking that my superior skill will allow me to get away with it" was the furthest thing from my mind!

In fact, what I was thinking was, "****, they're gonna find my dead body wearing a "Land and Live" cap. Damn, that's gonna be embarrassing!"

Sometimes good pilots just make bad decisions, and its generally just dumb luck when we survive to tell the tale.

I don’t get it, there’s a few things that spring to mind
​​​​​
1) poor decision making
2) poor flying skills
3) where the hell were you looking
4) lack of knowledge
5) disregard of the rules

Are you really saying that you’re a good pilot and went IIMC or am I missing something?

[wrench1]

Or sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

[Robbiee]

I don’t get it, there’s a few things that spring to mind
​​​​​
1) poor decision making
2) poor flying skills
3) where the hell were you looking
4) lack of knowledge
5) disregard of the rules

Are you really saying that you’re a good pilot and went IIMC or am I missing something?

Hmm,...sounds like you're saying, only bad pilots make bad decisions. Must be nice being perfect. What's that like?

[Lala Steady]

Perhaps you should reassess your opinion of yourself as a good pilot - yes good pilots make mistakes, bad pilots make a series of them.

Is deciding to scud run a good decision?

Is pushing on when you could turn round or land a good decision?

Is worrying about embarrassment the sort of thing a good pilot would place over safety?

Buy yourself a mirror.

[Robbiee]

Perhaps you should reassess your opinion of yourself as a good pilot - yes good pilots make mistakes, bad pilots make a series of them.

Is deciding to scud run a good decision?

Is pushing on when you could turn round or land a good decision?

Is worrying about embarrassment the sort of thing a good pilot would place over safety?

Buy yourself a mirror.

Ah,...so one day of bad decisions makes me a bad pilot, huh? Oh well,...I can live with that.​​​​​

​​​​​

[[email protected]]

Ah,...so one day of bad decisions makes me a bad pilot, huh? Oh well,...I can live with that.​​​​​

​​​​​
Well since you seem to have an ego bigger than most cockpits, one can only hope you do get to live with that.

[Mast Bumper]

Ah,...so one day of bad decisions makes me a bad pilot, huh? Oh well,...I can live with that.​​​​​

​​​​​

We've all made mistakes. I've made a boatload of them and am still kicking myself for some of them. But after I realized what I did, I tried to learn as much as possible so that i never make that mistake again. I've even incorporated some of the lessons learned from my wrong decision making into training curriculum to help other professional pilots avoid being exposed to what I experienced.

Making excuses and accepting that "**** happens" is intrinsically wrong. You need to either go eat some humble pie or get out of aviation.

I hope I never work for the same employer as you.

[Robbiee]

We've all made mistakes. I've made a boatload of them and am still kicking myself for some of them. But after I realized what I did, I tried to learn as much as possible so that i never make that mistake again. I've even incorporated some of the lessons learned from my wrong decision making into training curriculum to help other professional pilots avoid being exposed to what I experienced.

Making excuses and accepting that "**** happens" is intrinsically wrong. You need to either go eat some humble pie or get out of aviation.

I hope I never work for the same employer as you.

Well, I've been a pilot for over twenty years, yet only gone scudd-running once, so I don't know what to tell ya pal, but sometimes people just make bad decisions.

As for humble pie? Nah,...I'd rather just have a big ego. It keeps me warm at night and helps keep my cg from getting too far aft.

[havoc]

I stopped flying in 2018, 18 yrs US HAA, before that 21 yrs military. I am not sure if Enroute Decision Point is still emphasized or maybe this was just an HAA Instructor item. I know when teaching in the early days I was surprised how many pilots did not incorporate an EDP in their decision process once they accepted a flight. Over time the number of pilots not using an EDP was less frequent, I think that could have been due to removing the Military Mission, (you have to go mentality out of many) and sim scenarios definitely helped.

Not sure if an EDP would have been a factor in the CA incident.

RWS 105 - Enroute Decision Point with Miles Dunagan - The Rotary Wing Show Podcast (https://rotarywingshow.com/105-enroute-decision-point/)

EDP (youtube.com)

Just Helicopters > Articles and News > Community Articles (https://justhelicopters.com/Articles-and-News/Community-Articles/Article/67533/My-2-Cents-Worth-Enroute-Decision-Point)

[retoocs]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone in the US use the Aviation Weather Center Graphical Forecast for Aviation, formerly HEMS Tool?
https://aviationweather.gov/gfa/#obs
If you click the layer button, there is a check box for Flight Category. It displays the areas on the map that are MVFR, IFR, and LIFR.

The whole purpose with the development of the former HEMS Tool was to make the decision process easier.

[T28B]

If we could stop turning this into the dump on Robbiee thread, it would be appreciated.
Thank you all in advance.

[nonsense]

Ah,...so one day of bad decisions makes me a bad pilot, huh? Oh well,...I can live with that.​​​​​​

If one day of bad decisions makes you a dead pilot with dead passengers, yes, it makes you a bad pilot, and no, you won't be able to live with that.

The extraordinary levels of safety being achieved in scheduled commercial passenger aviation in recent years are the result of an obsessive focus on safety.
Yes, mistakes happen, but most are recognised possibilities with mitigations in place, like "land and live".

[lowskids]

Conditions see just right for icing, EC130 flies poorly with ice forming on blades.

[Robbiee]

If one day of bad decisions makes you a dead pilot with dead passengers, yes, it makes you a bad pilot, and no, you won't be able to live with that.

The extraordinary levels of safety being achieved in scheduled commercial passenger aviation in recent years are the result of an obsessive focus on safety.
Yes, mistakes happen, but most are recognised possibilities with mitigations in place, like "land and live".

So, every pilot (regardless of experience level, or history) that has died from making a bad decision is a bad pilot? So, like if next week Sully made a bad decision that got himself killed, he's now considered a bad pilot?

Interesting way of looking at life. Not my cup of tea, but as the kids say, "You do you".

[Nubian]

So, every pilot (regardless of experience level, or history) that has died from making a bad decision is a bad pilot? So, like if next week Sully made a bad decision that got himself killed, he's now considered a bad pilot?

Interesting way of looking at life. Not my cup of tea, but as the kids say, "You do you".

I think you should stop looking at it as a “good pilot-bad pilot” generalisation.

The point we are trying to make is that earlier you said **** happens, and no fancy equipment as you call it or risk assessment would make a difference to that…

So accidents are just **** happens.,, that why they are called accidents as you say.

If this is your honest opinion, then you have survived this long based on luck and probably not too much exposure (hours in the air)

If Sully makes a fatal mistake tomorrow, he is generally not a bad pilot, but he has then made a fatal mistake that he can not live with!! Only issue with this is that he is this old for a reason, although I am sure that he has made lots of mistakes in his career… but not fatal ones. I’m sure as **** he has not classified many of the mistakes as **** happens, besides the moment he is most known for…. That was a **** happens example and quite a lot of luck saved their lives.

Get the point??

[Lonewolf_50]

. That was a **** happens example and quite a lot of luck saved their lives. Get the point?? Quite a bit of luck and skill. Both.
However, your general point is agreed. :)

[Robbiee]

I think you should stop looking at it as a “good pilot-bad pilot” generalisation.

The point we are trying to make is that earlier you said **** happens, and no fancy equipment as you call it or risk assessment would make a difference to that…

So accidents are just **** happens.,, that why they are called accidents as you say.

If this is your honest opinion, then you have survived this long based on luck and probably not too much exposure (hours in the air)

If Sully makes a fatal mistake tomorrow, he is generally not a bad pilot, but he has then made a fatal mistake that he can not live with!! Only issue with this is that he is this old for a reason, although I am sure that he has made lots of mistakes in his career… but not fatal ones. I’m sure as **** he has not classified many of the mistakes as **** happens, besides the moment he is most known for…. That was a **** happens example and quite a lot of luck saved their lives.

Get the point??

No, I don't get your point.

My chain of bad decisions the day I almost died, was in spite of my knowing that what I was doing was a bad idea. It wasn't overconfidence, I just turned off my brain because I was overcome by "get the job done" itis. Why did I do that? I don't really know? Why do good pilots sometimes make bad decisions? **** happens, that's why.

Get the point?

[Nubian]

No, I don't get your point.

My chain of bad decisions the day I almost died, was in spite of my knowing that what I was doing was a bad idea. It wasn't overconfidence, I just turned off my brain because I was overcome by "get the job done" itis. Why did I do that? I don't really know? Why do good pilots sometimes make bad decisions? **** happens, that's why.

Get the point?

No.
I have better things to do, then arguing with you.
Wish you all the best of luck. You need it.

[Lala Steady]

No, I don't get your point.

My chain of bad decisions the day I almost died, was in spite of my knowing that what I was doing was a bad idea. It wasn't overconfidence, I just turned off my brain because I was overcome by "get the job done" itis. Why did I do that? I don't really know? Why do good pilots sometimes make bad decisions? **** happens, that's why.

Get the point?

No, you made a bad decision to get airborne - plenty have done that due to commercial or other pressures but then plenty have turned round or landed when things got worse, you didn't.

That is the difference between good and bad pilots, recognising you have made an error before it becomes a fatal one or as in your case a near miss.

This is an important safety point which you should really take on board - what was the urgency to get the job done? Lifesaving?

What is concerning is that you are happy to dismiss it as **** happens rather than analysing why you 'turned off your brain' and then portraying it as some sort of big boy's adventure.

All pilots have near misses and most of the time that is due to circumstances beyond their control - yours wasn't. Own it don't dismiss it.

[212man]

That is the difference between good and bad pilots, recognising you have made an error before it becomes a fatal one or as in your case a near miss.

​​​​​​​Basically, the old adage that "superior pilots use their superior judgement to avoid having to use their superior skills!"

[Robbiee]

What is concerning is that you are happy to dismiss it as **** happens rather than analysing why you 'turned off your brain' and then portraying it as some sort of big boy's adventure.


Happy that I allowed external pressures to override my good judgement and training? Happy that I ignored that little man in my head telling me over and over to "Not do this" and to "Just land!"

Lmfao! Sure dude. :ok:

​​​

[[email protected]]

Happy that I allowed external pressures to override my good judgement and training? Happy that I ignored that little man in my head telling me over and over to "Not do this" and to "Just land!"

Lmfao! Sure dude. :ok:

​​​
We can't tell how you feel - we can just see what you post:ugh:

[Robbiee]

We can't tell how you feel - we can just see what you post:ugh:

,...and yet I never once posted that I was happy about what happened, or that it was some kind of "big boy adventure".

I just said that "Sometimes good pilots make bad decisions,...and that's because sometimes **** just happens", because I simply believe that we can't control everything in life, no matter how hard we try. :ugh:



​​​​​​

[[email protected]]

Yup, you know best Robbiee and the hundreds of thousands of hours of experience on these pages know nothing..........................

[Robbiee]

Yup, you know best Robbiee and the hundreds of thousands of hours of experience on these pages know nothing..........................

,...and apparently my real life experience with this type of scenario counts for nothing, just because I have a different point of view than the Pprune Gods.

,...oh and by the way, I did actually post that I'd be "embarrassed when they found my dead body, with my Land and Live cap on my head". So yeah, you DO know how I felt!

[OvertHawk]

Making a mistake or an error of judgement isn't just an act of God or fate or Karma or whatever.

That it happens to all of us is undeniable but the phrases " *** happens" and "we all make mistakes" absolutely do not mean the same thing (or certainly should not mean the same thing in aviation).

If the wind blows a tree down onto my garage it could be argued that " *** happened"

If i decide to try and cut it down, screw it up and it falls on my garage then " I was ***t"

If you had come into this conversation with the phrase "Sometimes we all make dumb decisions that we can't properly explain afterwards" then i think the forum would be overwhelmingly with you.

But to dismiss it with a blase' " *** happens" sounds like you are suggesting that you were not responsible.

S*** did not happen. You did something.

[Robbiee]

Making a mistake or an error of judgement isn't just an act of God or fate or Karma or whatever.

That it happens to all of us is undeniable but the phrases " *** happens" and "we all make mistakes" absolutely do not mean the same thing (or certainly should not mean the same thing in aviation).

If the wind blows a tree down onto my garage it could be argued that " *** happened"

If i decide to try and cut it down, screw it up and it falls on my garage then " I was ***t"

If you had come into this conversation with the phrase "Sometimes we all make dumb decisions that we can't properly explain afterwards" then i think the forum would be overwhelmingly with you.

But to dismiss it with a blase' " *** happens" sounds like you are suggesting that you were not responsible.

S*** did not happen. You did something.

:ugh:
I never said I wasn't responsible. I mearly stated that the reason good pilots sometimes make bad decisions (even when they're telling themselves not to do it) is because sometimes **** just happens.

Its like when sometimes you just say the wrong thing (i e put your foot in your mouth, as the saying goes), like when a bad joke just slips out,...just ask Fuzzy Zellor! Sometimes your common sense just takes a break for a bit.

You guys are gonna drive me to drink! Seriously, this is worse than the arguments over what "Settling with Power" means! :eek:

[212man]

You guys are gonna drive me to drink! Seriously, this is worse than the arguments over what "Settling with Power" means! https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif

​​​​​​​Well that’s simple - it’s VRS 😂

[Lala Steady]

I never said I wasn't responsible. I mearly stated that the reason good pilots sometimes make bad decisions (even when they're telling themselves not to do it) is because sometimes **** just happens.
No it's simply risk taking - you know you are taking a risk, have assessed it in your mind as risky but still do it anyway.

That is just dumb behaviour and you take that risk because you think you are good enough to get away with it.

​​​​​​​Keep your ego out of the cockpit.

[OvertHawk]

I give up.

[Robbiee]

****it, I'm going to Moe's.

[OvertHawk]

****it, I'm going to Moe's.

Have one for me! :ok:

[twinstar_ca]

Ok... I can't keep quiet anymore. Here we have a brother who has the cojones to come out and say I fell into one of the basic traps, got lucky, and am still here. All of a sudden, we get all the opinions about his ego and what an idiot he is or was, yada, yada, yada... someone even compared his decision to that of EMS pilots having to "save above all costs!!". the aviation sector of air ambulance is not told what the medical call is so as not to influence a completely aviation based decision on whether to go or not go..

I, for one, give Robbiee some credit for sharing what he learned so that the rest of us can benefit... Bravo Zulu, sir... :ok::cool:

[JimEli]

What is your definition of "scud running"?

[Uplinker]

A genuine question I have always wondered about, (from a fixed wing big-jet pilot):

We have Minimum Safe Altitudes, or Minimum Sector Altitudes, or Minimum En-route Altitudes etc. These are surveyed and published, taking into account the highest ground in a given sector or either side of an airway, for example.

We look on the chart or our PLOG, and take note of the MSA where we are and always fly at least 1000' above that, (or 2000' above it in certain adverse meteorological conditions).

MSA is predicated on the barometric altitude. Do helicopter pilots also operate above minimum safe altitudes, and if so, heli pilots must be used to constantly checking their barometric altimeter, (as well as everything else), during flight ?

When 'scud running'; does a heli pilot deliberately fly below the MSA and hope they can see and stay above the terrain ?

[Ascend Charlie]

MSA is designed to let the Plank deliver people to an airfield.

AGL is designed to let the helicopter take the people to where they are needed. If AGL and IMC get too close together, then TAGBH. (Turn around, go back home.)
If IIMC and no CIR, then BOKYAG.

[[email protected]]

When 'scud running'; does a heli pilot deliberately fly below the MSA and hope they can see and stay above the terrain ? It's when the weather is close to limits for VFR flight and often in variable terrain - people often take a punt on the weather being better just up the road and, when it's not, often push on anyway.

The end result is getting lower and slower (usually) before either turning back or landing.

If you do neither and push on into it, chances are you will end up IIMC with no plan, usually in a VFR only helicopter and with a pilot with no IR or even basic instrument training in cloud.

Most won't have a clue what the MSA is, let alone have the skills to get them there and back down again.

The end result is very often fatal - witness the number of discussions on these pages.

Apparently, doing this makes you a good pilot who sometimes **** happens to.

[Agile]

"sometimes **** happens", although I can relate in practice, yes there are days when you get unlucky and get a bad set of cards.
The problem i have with this comment is that it goes against everything aviation stands for. In aviation we have systems and rule based logic for everything. That logic has been developed by design or experience over decades and decades and it is the foundation of all safety system. Saying that "**** happens" could be interpreted as saying the system is flawed and does not have to be complied with.

What do you think if Airbus Helicopter would say "sometimes **** happens" when a super puma lost its rotor head above Norway.
they would have been right but its not how aviation work, we get the bottom of it and take corrective action. (we make new design, new procedure....)

[Uplinker]

Ah, OK.

A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.

I didn't get Ascend Charlie's cryptic post....Plank, CIR, BOKYAG ??, but can you explain AGL, (I know it as "above ground level"), is that a helicopter equivalent of MSA ? Otherwise, how is a heli pilot in IMC to know what hills, high features or transmitter masts - or even trees - they are flying towards ?

Not judging, merely trying to understand helicopter operations.

Regarding the **** happens comment, I think it was a very unfortunate phrase but that Robbie has been misunderstood. Aviation safety is based on a foundation of disseminating information, including pilot mistakes. My read is that Robbie was telling us they had done something really stupid, as a warning to others not to be so stupid ?

[JimEli]

Ah, OK.

A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.
...


A few things to consider.

1. The utility of most helicopters is in performing operations conducted VFR and below MSA.

2. Until recently in the US, helicopters could operate in class G airspace clear of clouds and “an airspeed to see and avoid.” Currently, the weather minimums are 1/2 mile visibility and remain clear of clouds.

3. Most small helicopters are inherently unstable. Leaving go of the controls will result in the aircraft departing controlled flight in seconds.

[megan]

VFR into IMC accident investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) continually cite poor decision making as one of the main reasons pilots find themselves in these situations. Unlike other accident causes (e.g., mechanical failure), VFR into IMC usually does not occur instantly. Pilots either had the tools necessary to know the conditions ahead of time or should have recognized the worsening weather conditions. Failure to act or react to changes in conditions has continued to drive the high fatality rate.https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/online-learning/safety-spotlights/vfr-into-imc/ntsb

Gaining a license is merely a license to begin the real learning process, that is gaining experience by doing. Along the way you make mistakes, some you get away with, some you don't, which may result in an accident, or at the very worse, death. No matter the level of experience everyone is capable of screwing the pooch and ending in a casket.We can have all the training/fancy toys/experience in the world, but in the end, we're all just human, and **** happens,...and will always "just happen"Don't like the phrase "**** happens" Robbiee when applied to pilot error, pilot error, as the AOPA article cites, is the result of poor decision making, which may be a reflection of lack of experience or training, a "****** happenning" event to me is when your S-76 throws a rotor blade, as occurred to good friend Jerry Hardy at Aberdeen

[albatross]

Ah, OK.

A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.

I didn't get Ascend Charlie's cryptic post....Plank, CIR, BOKYAG ??, but can you explain AGL, (I know it as "above ground level"), is that a helicopter equivalent of MSA ? Otherwise, how is a heli pilot in IMC to know what hills, high features or transmitter masts - or even trees - they are flying towards ?

Not judging, merely trying to understand helicopter operations.

Regarding the **** happens comment, I think it was a very unfortunate phrase but that Robbie has been misunderstood. Aviation safety is based on a foundation of disseminating information, including pilot mistakes. My read is that Robbie was telling us they had done something really stupid, as a warning to others not to be so stupid ?

Did you ever fly commercial fixed wing bush operations, survey, crop dusting ect. the stuff where all the fun is and 500 feet is considered High Altitude? Helicopters have the benefit of great vis from the cockpit and the ability to slow down and many more landing options. . A DHC-3 Otter, for example, on skis or floats is limited in both vis from the cockpit, and slow speed cruise is going to be +- 70 kts. Fun daze!

[Uplinker]

Obviously not - apart from training; which was all fixed wing - hence my question to you heli guys.

I have flown as passenger in twin Squirrels, Jetranger, Longranger, Bolkow 105 , Westland 30 etc, but never as a heli pilot.

But it seems a bit worrying if heli pilots are routinely flying below MSA during commercial work and/or with paying passengers on board ?

[Bravo73]

But it seems a bit worrying if heli pilots are routinely flying below MSA during commercial work and/or with paying passengers on board ?

MSA is obviously an IFR limitation. The majority of helicopter work (particularly utility work) is VFR.

IFR helicopters won’t be ‘routinely flying below MSA’.

[[email protected]]

Uplinker - IFR for helicopters are the same as IFR for fixed wing

[605carsten]

Too many of you are airline types and dont appreciate the different environment helicopters work in.. same way you cant apply same TEM to bush pilot ops vs Airline.. different skillsets. Most of you button-pushers would be horrified at a normal days flying for an Alaskan bush pilot let alone a heli pilot utilizing what a heli does best.

Also, the IFR environment is a PITA for a helicopter as its mainly setup for planks and their speeds.

regards from somebody who flies in both worlds and found out quickly there is no cross cultural exchange of info from either side to how we can co-exist safely..

[JimEli]

MSA is obviously an IFR limitation. The majority of helicopter work (particularly utility work) is VFR.
...


FWIW, in this accident, the helicopter wasn't helicoptering.

[EXDAC]

A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency.

I usually lurk here as I'm a plank driver but can't let this one go without comment.

MSA is set to give clearance (1,000 ft) over the highest peak or obstacle in a large area (25 nm radius of a navaid or waypoint). Where there are hills there are often valleys. I enjoy flying in the valleys when the peaks are obscured by cloud. I'm often several thousand feet below MSA when flying in my local area. No emergency, no commercial operation, just flying because I enjoy flying.

To put this in perspective - my base airport is at 1,480 ft and has a charted MSA of 7,800 ft!

[JohnDixson]

Crab’s post 106 nails the problem. But when this subject came up, there would still be those who maintained you could always “ get ‘er done “ without any IMC capability. About 2 months out of flight school with a whole 6 hours of hood time in an S-55 I had an experience that exemplified the issue. Took a little activity that was “irregular “ but made sure that didn’t happen again.

[605carsten]

Chatting with somebody a few days ago here in the valley area, he seems to think they should look into the corporate culture of the company as he believes the two youngsters got pushed into the flight and were afraid to say no.

[megan]

he believes the two youngsters got pushed into the flight and were afraid to say noUnfortunately happens to experienced folk as well, remember the great safety advocate "Torch" Lewis writing on the subject and telling the story of how he made an ILS in a Lodestar to landing in zero/zero conditions because his boss demanded it and he feared for his job if he didn'tIFR for helicopters are the same as IFR for fixed wingExcept when you fly for certain oil companys crab, transit 300' IMC was par for the course, descend to the water at night through fog, hover taxi to the platform legs and climb to the deck. Not me, but he became the CP.

[[email protected]]

Unfortunately happens to experienced folk as well, remember the great safety advocate "Torch" Lewis writing on the subject and telling the story of how he made an ILS in a Lodestar to landing in zero/zero conditions because his boss demanded it and he feared for his job if he didn'tExcept when you fly for certain oil companys crab, transit 300' IMC was par for the course, descend to the water at night through fog, hover taxi to the platform legs and climb to the deck. Not me, but he became the CP.
I take your point Megan but the R in IFR stands for Rules - if your operator chooses to break them that is their folly (can't imagine any insurer would pay out following a crash).

I've seen and heard of all sorts of stupid stuff done in helicopters 'to get the job done' which some get away with and some don't - depends on what, if any, risk mitigation is applied.

IE - I have hover-taxied from field to field for an hour in the dark and fog to get a seriously ill casualty to hospital when IFR wasn't an option (except with a very long diversion) and we were in a remote area.

The risk mitigation? Very well trained military crew used to low level ops, NVG, Rad Alt and an ability to convert to IFR and divert a long way with the fuel reserves.

[SASless]

I am trying to think of an Operator I worked for that emphasized sticking to the "Rules" as printed in company documentation or government pubs.....rather than encouraging getting the job done.

That list is very small....like none.

I did enjoy some that did not question a decision to stay on the ground or land out......well one actually.

For sure everyone of them would show up in Court with their fancy Lawyers who would very eloquently explain how I had violated Company Policy and Federal Regs and suggest they held no responsibility or liability.

Things have not changed since Gann's generation put on a Flying Suit in that regard.

We should take heed of sound advice from those more experienced in our profession.

Always have a Plan B as all too often Plan A becomes obsolete.

With Plan B becoming the deal....you then best have Plan C ready.

It is when you run out of Options that disaster happens.

Per Ernie Gann......It's when things are going just right that you'd better be suspicious. There you are, fat as can be. The whole world is yours and you're the answer to the Wright brothers' prayers. You say to yourself, nothing can go wrong ... all my trespasses are forgiven. Best you not believe it. (https://www.azquotes.com/quote/681733)

[212man]

I am trying to think of an Operator I worked for that emphasized sticking to the "Rules" as printed in company documentation or government pubs.....rather than encouraging getting the job done.

Of course, the flip side is that when the rules are too onerous, you can change them - when in a poorly regulated environment. So you can have some nice shiny Ops Manuals that look like the same JAA/EASA Manuals in your company's base country, but with some key differences in a couple of minor areas - like Flight Time and Duty Limitations, VFR weather minima and performance requirements. Nothing major, just a couple of areas tweaked to help when the normal rules don't fit the operational scenario........

[FH1100 Pilot]

The EC130 flight was a charter. And I'm sure that the operator had night VFR weather minimums in their Ops Specs. But there's a problem. It's the same problem that Kobe Bryant's pilot found himself dealing with...the same problem that all VFR helicopter pilots face: What happens when the weather is fine at the departure point and destination, but you run into a band of bad weather when you're past the mid-point of a long flight? Now what!

Years ago in the Gulf of Mexico, I left one of PHI's shore bases in a BO-105 to help with a rig crew-change. A 412 left the base behind me, VFR, giving me enough time to get on and off the deck before they arrived. The rig was waaaaay out, over an hour in the Bolkow. Weather was fine on "the beach." The rig was reporting "clear, blue and 22." Fifteen miles or so from it, I ran into an unforecast (and unforcastable) line of crap weather with a fog bank that I could not get over or under. Taking a deep breath and counting on my two RR-250's to keep running, I got down on the deck and hovered along for several tense minutes until I broke through to clear skies the other side. I radioed the 412 that they'd run into a line of sh*t, and things were bad down to about 10 miles from the rig but that the rig itself was in the clear. Once on the deck, I had a decision to make. I couldn't stay there because there wasn't enough room for me and the 412 and the rig didn't have fuel. Taking another deep breath, I launched and headed north. Hitting the fog bank, I got down on the deck again. Ghostly platforms appeared and slid slowly by on our left and right. My front seat passenger complimented me on knowing the right path through them. But I was just lucky that there weren't any directly in front of us. It was horrible. I promised God that if He got me through that mess, I would never, ever do something so stupid and I would devote my life to rescuing topless dancers from that industry if I had to visit every titty bar in Pensacola and tip them accordingly so they'd have enough money to switch careers and get a real job...like Helicopter Pilot. I broke out of the fog and found my refueling platform. The VFR 412, being able to take round-trip fuel, beat me back to base. All they said was, "Yeaaahhhh, it got pretty bad there for a while." None of us were newbies. The three of us knew what we had done. And we weren't proud of it. Sh*t happens, as they say. I'm sure we weren't the first Gulf of Mexico pilots to ever have that particular kind of sh*t happen, and we certainly were not the last.

The boys in that EC130 obviously should have turned around before they got in too deep. Did they think they could continue to follow the Interstate but were unable? Decisions are tough sometimes. And not all of us make the best ones. Sometimes we screw up badly but live to tell the tale. Sometimes we don't live. I wish it was a perfect world where everything was all cut-and-dried, and you get to a point where you just shrug and go, "Okay folks, can't make it. We're going back to where we took off from!" In theory it's that easy, but in reality it's not.

EDIT: Quick! Someone go repost this on the JH forum so you can all laugh and make fun of a pilot and make yourselves feel good! Oh, and if you do, please get it right: The prayer to God was on the flight back inbound, not the outbound. Yes, there really was a 412 who flew through the same crap I did, both times. And yes, rules were broken. But I always had surface contact and, I don't know about the 412 guys, but I was just hovering along at a speed that would have allowed me to avoid a platform directly in front of me, had there been one. Make fun all you want. Claim that *you* would never do such a stupid thing. We did some dumb sh*t 30 years ago. And, judging by the EC130 accident, some still do today.

[megan]

I take your point Megan but the R in IFR stands for Rules - if your operator chooses to break them that is their folly (can't imagine any insurer would pay out following a crash)The company had no time for ANY stinking rules crab, self insured as well, the oil company being both the owner and operator. The fact that they had never had an accident in my 27 years with them gave them cause to write me that results proved they were doing everything right. Normalisation of deviance.

[[email protected]]

All too common in the industry it would seem Megan.

[Uplinker]

Too many of you are airline types and dont appreciate the different environment helicopters work in.. same way you cant apply same TEM to bush pilot ops vs Airline.. different skillsets. Most of you button-pushers would be horrified at a normal days flying for an Alaskan bush pilot let alone a heli pilot utilizing what a heli does best.

Also, the IFR environment is a PITA for a helicopter as its mainly setup for planks and their speeds.

regards from somebody who flies in both worlds and found out quickly there is no cross cultural exchange of info from either side to how we can co-exist safely..

I think I stated I was a commercial fixed wing airliner pilot - or a plank flying button pusher in your charming words - cheers - and was politely asking about helicopter operations out of interest, because I don't know about them.

This thread is about a serious fatal helicopter crash, just to remind you. And some months before that there was a similar crash of a television news helicopter in similar circumstances.

Would you prefer that we plank flying button pushers took you and your family on holiday or to visit your inlaws in our airliners by flying below MSA along valleys, because it would be more fun for us pilots ?

For tactical helicopter operations; war, fire, police, air ambulance etc, I can see that well trained and experienced pilots would need to go below MSA in the course of their duties. Ditto heli-skiing and mountain rescue. But it seems odd to me if this is also routinely done by "regular" pilots, on "normal" transport routes even at night - when trees, ridges electricity pylons and transmitter towers for example, are not always lit. Why not give yourself a safety margin ?

MSA is a very basic safety device that commercial fixed wing pilots should not ignore. (I did once years ago in early training in the Sim, because I knew where I was - safely away from high ground, but I got a bollocking for doing it and never did it again, and my misdemeanour probably kept me out of the LHS for longer).

I usually lurk here as I'm a plank driver but can't let this one go without comment.

MSA is set to give clearance (1,000 ft) over the highest peak or obstacle in a large area (25 nm radius of a navaid or waypoint). Where there are hills there are often valleys. I enjoy flying in the valleys when the peaks are obscured by cloud. I'm often several thousand feet below MSA when flying in my local area. No emergency, no commercial operation, just flying because I enjoy flying.

To put this in perspective - my base airport is at 1,480 ft and has a charted MSA of 7,800 ft!

Do whatever you want by yourself - as long as you don't crash into my house or my car - but with fare paying passengers, or other commercial operations, I am surprised. Remember I am talking about marginal VFR or night flying. Exciting and good fun, yes I am sure, but seems unnecessarily risky to me in the sort of situation this helicopter crashed in.

I was once sitting in the back of a fixed wing training aircraft, which entered slightly marginal VMC at one point, and the horizon could no longer be seen all around. I became concerned that the student and his instructor were flying below MSA in the vicinity of a television transmitter mast in the area. I asked them what the local MSA was, and reminded them about the mast, and they immediately climbed to a safe altitude.
.

[Robbiee]

This thread is about a serious fatal helicopter crash, caused by flying too low, just to remind you.

The crash wasn't because he was flying too low. It was because he was flying VFR, when he should have been flying IFR.

[Uplinker]

OK, he seemed to be disorientated and in an unusual attitude, but he was too low, since he hit the ground.

Do heli pilots never look at their altimeter or Rad Alt ? He must have seen it winding down ?

I would have thought that if entering marginal VMC; the first thing you would do would be to ensure you are above MSA, otherwise how will you avoid pylons, masts, high ground ??

[mechpowi]

MSA is not a thing for a professional VFR flight. You are always bellow it. The marginal weather pretty much beeing the definition of bellow MSA. Masts are avoided by slowing down enought to be able to see and avoid them. Maps and HTAWS helps but are far from perfect. The general 500/1000 ft minum altitude and aviation maps/obstacle databases are a good way to not hitting anything static. Professional operators authorized to go bellow that need special procedures and training as there are increasing number of unchrated obstacles. (And a more limited number of options if the westher gets worse)

During a marginal weather VFR flight in a helicoper, MSA is only relevant when cosidering if transition (climb) to IFR is available due to icing and no aerofoil anti-icing. When flying off-route with IFR, MSA is of course the minimum altitude allowed (in a VFR to IFR transition one may need to be bellow MSA whilen flying unde IFR).

[OvertHawk]

Uplinker

You seem to be stuck in the groove here.

You state that you don't know about helicopters and are asking out of interest.

Then you ignore what people who do know what they're talking about are telling you.

VFR helicopters operate perfectly safely below MSA if flown in accordance with VFR.

It's kind of the reason that we have helicopters.

There is no requirement whatsoever - legal or safety - to fly above MSA if you are flying in suitable VFR conditions.

This accident did not happen because they were below MSA or flying too low. It happened because they continued flying in conditions that were unsuitable for VFR / VMC flight.

[SASless]

Then there is those things known as Regulations such as US FAA Part 135. (My bolding of Text)

My reading of the Regulation and in consideration of the route, weather, and terrain tells me they were not in compliance with the Regulations.

It gets very dark in Nevada at night if there is an overcast and thus an absence of terrestrial lighting

The actual visibility available probably will not allow sufficient light reference of any kind adequate to control the aircraft without reference to flight instrumentation.

Absent a mechanical failure this accident will probably be het another IIMC uncontrolled flight into terrain accident.

My view is the concept of calling it a VFR into IFR accident misses the reality of these tragedies....the "Rules" have nothing to do with the accident happening as it is the loss of control that gets you.

Had you obeyed those awful Regulations (The Rules) t hen you would not have found yourself in that situation that leads to your sudden demise and that of your passengers.

Ask longtime EMS pilots what tricks and techniques they use that have kept them alive and healthy and you will see most of them have altered routing to avoid those dark holes when possible. (If you comply with the FAR's....you have to do that to be legal)

If they are not able to stay over areas with enough surface lighting from homes, businesses, highways.....they treat the flight as an Instrument trip and are equipped, trained, and proficient (not just legally "current" but up to speed) and fly high as possible using Radar Flight Following assistance from ATC.

That reminds us there is the perfect world of Rules and Regulations but there is also reality where perfect compliance might not be achievable and stay in business.

But that is a topic for another discussion rather than in this thread.

Most of the Regulations might as well be written in blood as they came about due to events just like this one.....but unless the industry as a whole adopts the proper safety culture the toll in lives just keeps on growing.

Helicopter pilots are not very bright it seems as we (I include myself in that number) keep using using the same old tired ways of coming to an ugly end or at least try to after making very poor decisions.

Every one of these accidents provide us with Lessons Learned....or some would say.....Lessons Not Learned.

.
§ 135.205 VFR: Visibility requirements.(a) No person may operate an airplane under VFR in uncontrolled airspace when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet unless flight visibility is at least 2 miles.

(b) No person may operate a helicopter under VFR in Class G airspace at an altitude of 1,200 feet or less above the surface or within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport unless the visibility is at least—

(1) During the day— 1⁄2 mile; or

(2) At night—1 mile.

[Doc. No. 16097, 43 FR 46783 (https://www.federalregister.gov/citation/43-FR-46783), Oct. 10, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 135–41, 56 FR 65663 (https://www.federalregister.gov/citation/56-FR-65663), Dec. 17, 1991]
§ 135.207 VFR: Helicopter surface reference requirements.No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter.

[Robbiee]

OK, he seemed to be disorientated and in an unusual attitude, but he was too low, since he hit the ground.

Do heli pilots never look at their altimeter or Rad Alt ? He must have seen it winding down ?

I would have thought that if entering marginal VMC; the first thing you would do would be to ensure you are above MSA, otherwise how will you avoid pylons, masts, high ground ??

The MSA won't prevent you from getting disoriented, and when you're disoriented, it doesn't matter what the guages are telling you, as you're brain is not working properly while disoriented.

I've read many comments on r/flying where fixed-wingers will brag about using their instruments to fly through black holes on VFR flight, but chopper pilots aren't like that.

We're not really trained to switch from VFR to IFR at the flip of a switch (and quite often not even flying IFR ships), that's why a lot of us end up killing ourselves scudd-running, or while on night flights out in the middle of sparsely lighted nowhere where black holes live.

When we encounter marginal VMC we generally aren't in the right mindset to handle it like you guys are. That's just the way the cookies crumble in rotor-wing.

[EXDAC]

Do whatever you want by yourself - as long as you don't crash into my house or my car - but with fare paying passengers, or other commercial operations, I am surprised. Remember I am talking about marginal VFR or night flying. Exciting and good fun, yes I am sure, but seems unnecessarily risky to me in the sort of situation this helicopter crashed in.


You seem to have an unreasonable fear of flying below MSA and to assume anyone doing it puts themselves, and others, at risk.

Did you understand the relationship betwen the elevation of my base airport and the MSA? Did you understand that MSA is based on the highest obstacle in a very large area? All flight operations in my local area are below MSA and that includes all the IFR arrivals to KPHX following the BRUSR ONE or BUNTR THREE arrival routes and perhaps other STAR.

MSA may be critical to safety if you don't know where you are in relation to the terrain or obstacle that defined it. It has no influence at all on safety if you are 20-30 miles aways from that terrain or obstacle and in VMC.

Also MSA is of no importance if IFR and being controlled at or above the minimum vectoring altitude which is much lower than MSA in my local area.

Again - airport elevation 1,480 ft, MSA 7,800 ft

[BFSGrad]

NTSB Aviation Investigation Preliminary Report - N130CZ (https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193770/pdf)

[helispotter]

One thing apparent from preliminary report is the pilot was following highways for navigation & orientation as has already been discussed here. But having to do so for VFR flight seems to defeat some of the advantage of using a helicopter in the first place. Seems like a dog leg route needed to be followed, rather than a more direct (IFR) flight path, and then perhaps still without sufficient visual cues. EC130 cruise is around 120 knots, so 222 km/h or 138 mph. Taking a car may have doubled travel time but perhaps may have been safer in this instance.

[Good Vibs]

For all of us who have flown helicopters in Nigeria or West Africa know that many times of the year the weather is really difficult and requires the best of flying skills.

But for a Nigerian Business Man to die in a helicopter in a weather related accident in “Sunny California” is really paradox.

[Robbiee]

For all of us who have flown helicopters in Nigeria or West Africa know that many times of the year the weather is really difficult and requires the best of flying skills.

But for a Nigerian Business Man to die in a helicopter in a weather related accident in “Sunny California” is really paradox.

Sun don't shine at nite. :cool:

[Good Vibs]

Don't forget the song...."It never rains in southern california"

[Robbiee]

Don't forget the song...."It never rains in southern california"

You can easily get disoriented at nite and crash as a result, even when its perfectly clear. No moon, sparsly lighted desert, mountainous terrain, late nite flight fatigue.

,..or you could make your go/no go decisions based on memes and songs. :}

[Hot and Hi]

For all of us who have flown helicopters in Nigeria or West Africa know that many times of the year the weather is really difficult and requires the best of flying skills.

But for a Nigerian Business Man to die in a helicopter in a weather related accident in “Sunny California” is really paradox.

If I may generalise: African professionals, and amongst them Nigerians first and foremost, have a non-wavering, uncritical admiration for the United States of America. Specifically on CEO level, they and their partners, jointly or separately, love to ostentatiously spend time and money there.

None of the before-said is meant to take away any responsibility from the operator for delivering a safe and reliable air service. It is the right of the paying public, however naive, to by completely oblivious of the many considerations that go into aeronautical decision making, and to totally rely on the operator to make the right decisions on their behalf.

[megan]

You can easily get disoriented at nite and crash as a result, even when its perfectly clear. No moon, sparsly lighted desert, mountainous terrain, late nite flight fatigueHow right you are Robbiee, here is how you do it.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/default/files/media/5668844/AO-2011-102%20Final.pdf

[[email protected]]

It's why VFR at night isn't really VFR, regardless of what the rules say.

[SASless]

What say we read the Rules.....then offer your views on this accident.

As you read the Rules...consider what the Accident Report had to say.

For the not knowing....the route that night was in marginal weather....and over an area well known for its "darkness" except for buildings adjacent to major roadways.

That is why the Pilot was following a road....as that is where the surface lighting was.

Going direct was NOT an option for VFR/VMC.

You also have to consider curves in the. road way....or rising terrain ahead that the road way had to ascend and which would block a view of lights beyond the crest of the rising terrain.

Also a factor is how much vehicular traffic was traveling along that road.

I was not there and thus cannot know what the conditions actually were.....but my gut feeling is I would have made like a Sea Gull stood atop a Pelican Pole and squawked and flapped my wings a bit but not have gone flying.

Crab hit on a bit of truth.....the Rules will set you up for failure if you consider them as being etched in stone.

The Regulation quoted below is the absolute minimum and does allow you to use it as a basis to just say "NO!". The discretion part is when the weather approaches those minimums but does not reach those limits where you can quite happily refuse to go flying.

That is where rub comes....and why you have to know the terrain, what lighting is available and carefully analyze the weather conditions that exist and are likely along your route and at your destination and all of your alternate landing areas (which includes farmer's pastures, truck stop parking lots, pubs, and other places not airports, aerodromes, or landing strips).

In the FAA system....the surface light requirement is not mentioned....but is incorporated into the Part 135 Rules (Air Taxi). FAR Part 91.155 (General Rules) only shows a one mile visibility for Class G Airspace with no mention of surface lighting.

When reading the FAR's you must be careful to catch the qualifying words...."Helicopter", "Airplane", "Aircraft" so you can read the wording that applies. Aircraft is all inclusive, and the other two are self explanatory.§ 135.203 VFR: Minimum altitudes.Except when necessary for takeoff and landing, no person may operate under VFR—

(a) An airplane—

(1) During the day, below 500 feet above the surface or less than 500 feet horizontally from any obstacle; or

(2) At night, at an altitude less than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 5 miles from the course intended to be flown or, in designated mountainous terrain, less than 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 5 miles from the course intended to be flown; or

(b) A helicopter over a congested area at an altitude less than 300 feet above the surface.§ 135.205 VFR: Visibility requirements.(a) No person may operate an airplane under VFR in uncontrolled airspace when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet unless flight visibility is at least 2 miles.

(b) No person may operate a helicopter under VFR in Class G airspace at an altitude of 1,200 feet or less above the surface or within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport unless the visibility is at least—

(1) During the day— 1⁄2 mile; or

(2) At night—1 mile.

[Doc. No. 16097, 43 FR 46783, Oct. 10, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 135–41, [url=https://www.federalregister.gov/citation/56-FR-65663]56 FR 65663 (https://www.federalregister.gov/citation/43-FR-46783), Dec. 17, 1991]§ 135.207 VFR: Helicopter surface reference requirements.No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter.

[Sir Korsky]

Inexperience and poor decision making. The key ingredients for 90% of helicopter wrecks.

[Robbiee]

It's why VFR at night isn't really VFR, regardless of what the rules say.

Well,...it is VFR over the city.

[RVDT]

visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter
Having flown most of that route during the day in both directions you would need a truckload of optimism at night without adding weather to the mix. As they say "hope", in aviation, is not really a good strategy.

[Robbiee]

In the FAA system....the surface light requirement is not mentioned....but is incorporated into the Part 135 Rules (Air Taxi). FAR Part 91.155 (General Rules) only shows a one mile visibility for Class G Airspace with no mention of surface lighting.

One reason I'm glad to have learned in the Robby. Our POH states in its Limitations section;

"VFR operation at night only permitted when,...Orientation during night flight must be maintained by visual reference to ground objects illuminated soley by lights on the ground, or adequate celestial illumination."

Kinda makes you think about your route.

[JimEli]

What say we read the Rules.....then offer your views on this accident.
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Understand the part 135 operators' GOM would/could/should have further restrictions and requirements.