Reds Diamond Season and 60th

[chopper2004]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/news/red-arrows-launch-60th-diamond-season-plans1/?fbclid=IwAR27z4pyvkWcSeY0WX1n1debKKOXy4YFZPjVA4Q2eGB08xRA5g t5e8yiSd8_aem_AUDtrH57F_Nv-O3qcTTrZS9TjM4j0tPnXnHsfkSV5-dpJQZT-128xfRm5VscG0iKcSg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1351/img_1478_1383be2490f8c70536e6343e92ec0cee5b36a6ff.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x494/img_1479_f07705c248b0a0b094bf94b1f74899f5886de28d.jpeg

cheers

[Mogwi]

Von Richthofen remarked, the day before he died, that 80 was a good number. Perhaps 60 should be a “good number” for the Reds, given the parlours state of the RAF at present and the gathering storm to the East.

I am afraid that the recruitment value of the team has, long ago, evaporated and the personnel could be far better employed elsewhere.

Mog

[6Z3]

In the FAA perhaps, eh Mog:ok:

[DogTailRed2]

I still enjoy seeing them at air shows but my impression of the team has been dampened by recent events. Their `esprit de corps` has been tarnished some what.

[OvertHawk]

Von Richthofen remarked, the day before he died, that 80 was a good number. Perhaps 60 should be a “good number” for the Reds, given the parlours state of the RAF at present and the gathering storm to the East.

I am afraid that the recruitment value of the team has, long ago, evaporated and the personnel could be far better employed elsewhere.

Mog

I'm sad to say that I'm inclined to agree. Recruitment value - negligible (and we can't train the pilots that we do recruit). Overseas sales of the hawk value - nil - we don't make it anymore. Positive publicity and good PR value: Nil sadly.

Plus they cost a flaming fortune that we simply can't afford and use resources that, as Mog says, really should be elsewhere.

Never thought i'd say it but I think it may be time to hang up the red suits.

[Expatrick]

Should quit while the great reputation remains (almost) intact.

[Krystal n chips]

I'm sad to say that I'm inclined to agree. Recruitment value - negligible (and we can't train the pilots that we do recruit). Overseas sales of the hawk value - nil - we don't make it anymore. Positive publicity and good PR value: Nil sadly.

Plus they cost a flaming fortune that we simply can't afford and use resources that, as Mog says, really should be elsewhere.

Never thought i'd say it but I think it may be time to hang up the red suits.

In which case, this year would be perfect for their finale

[Fly-by-Wife]

They'd better be on their best behaviour - the press will be watching them like a... well, like a Hawk, I suppose.

[DuckDodgers]

Their utility is akin to UASs, the QFIs could be better employed elsewhere!

[pr00ne]

Their utility is akin to UASs, the QFIs could be better employed elsewhere!

What QFI's?

[BEagle]

Indeed pr00ne! Not just RAFAT, but even UASs have precious few QFIs these days, sadly.

There was enough 'fat' in the system pre-GW1 to spring some QFIs back to the front line after a couple of weeks of refresher flying, but with the advent of MFTS any flexibility has long since disappeared.

A surge in pilot training simply couldn't happen these days - there aren't enough aircraft, aerodromes, instructors or ground crew capable of coping with any large demand.

I read recently that the largest UAS was only capable of achieving 6 first solos, 2 first solo sector recces and 1 first aerobatic solo in an entire year......

[Union Jack]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/news/red-arrows-launch-60th-diamond-season-plans1/?fbclid=IwAR27z4pyvkWcSeY0WX1n1debKKOXy4YFZPjVA4Q2eGB08xRA5g t5e8yiSd8_aem_AUDtrH57F_Nv-O3qcTTrZS9TjM4j0tPnXnHsfkSV5-dpJQZT-128xfRm5VscG0iKcSg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1351/img_1478_1383be2490f8c70536e6343e92ec0cee5b36a6ff.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x494/img_1479_f07705c248b0a0b094bf94b1f74899f5886de28d.jpeg

cheers
Will this make them all Diamond geezers?:hmm:

Jack

[Shaft109]

I'm not exactly sure when they changed it - but THAT font for Royal Air Force just looks so tacky somehow with the out of balance slanty letters.

[DogTailRed2]

Lots of comment about the Pilots and resources would be better deployed elsewhere.
Are we saying the resources to fund and operate the Red Arrows is stretching our military?
That's damming isn't it for one of the richest countries in the world?

[Lordflasheart]

...
What's more damning is that they seem to be still carrying pax in the back seat without command eject (front ejects back) and they seem to be still using the out of date scissors shackle ejector seat, rather than the gas shackle mod that was offered and refused some twenty years ago for Hawk, but accepted for Tonkas. Viz: XX177 and XX204 in particular.

LFH

[dctyke]

The scissor shackle worked perfectly well when it was serviced regularly in the ejection seat bay at unit level. It was only when seat servicing was extended incrementally over a few years and the demise of unit seat bays that a frig had to be invented to open the shackle in the cockpit in order to do out of phase work!

[David Thompson]

A surge in pilot training simply couldn't happen these days - there aren't enough aircraft, aerodromes, instructors or ground crew capable of coping with any large demand.
I read recently that the largest UAS was only capable of achieving 6 first solos, 2 first solo sector recces and 1 first aerobatic solo in an entire year .

RAF Valley Graduation on Friday , 9 February , saw 3 pilots awarded their wings ;

"Masters of the Air!

Three more Valley students were awarded their coveted wings today as their proud mums, dads and partners watched on. The 'wings' were awarded by Air Vice Marshal Mark Flewin CBE, Air Officer Commanding 1 Group."

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Indeed pr00ne! Not just RAFAT, but even UASs have precious few QFIs these days, sadly.

There was enough 'fat' in the system pre-GW1 to spring some QFIs back to the front line after a couple of weeks of refresher flying, but with the advent of MFTS any flexibility has long since disappeared.

A surge in pilot training simply couldn't happen these days - there aren't enough aircraft, aerodromes, instructors or ground crew capable of coping with any large demand.

I read recently that the largest UAS was only capable of achieving 6 first solos, 2 first solo sector recces and 1 first aerobatic solo in an entire year......
Not sure how much of that was down to QFI availability and how much of that was down to aircraft? The Tutor has had some pretty dreadful availability the last couple of years (prop, control surfaces, etc), and every time it comes back you immediately lose all the QFIs to refreshing AEF staff.

[OvertHawk]

Lots of comment about the Pilots and resources would be better deployed elsewhere.
Are we saying the resources to fund and operate the Red Arrows is stretching our military?
That's damming isn't it for one of the richest countries in the world?

Yes I am and, yes it is.

[falcon900]

Not only are the Reds no longer productive in terms of their original objectives, I believe that they are now actively counter productive to the interests of the RAF in that they portray a false impression of the underlying state of the organisation. How many operational units could muster 9 serviceable aircraft simultaneously for the same number of days as the Reds display?

[ASRAAMTOO]

Not sure how much of that was down to QFI availability and how much of that was down to aircraft? The Tutor has had some pretty dreadful availability the last couple of years (prop, control surfaces, etc), and every time it comes back you immediately lose all the QFIs to refreshing AEF staff.
The poor flying rate is down to a number of factors but mainly aircraft and QFI availability (some UAS's are worse than others!). Other factors that cause problems are the lack of radar service availability, particularly at weekends (or more correctly a rule that requires it!).

[BEagle]

What's more damning is that they seem to be still carrying pax in the back seat without command eject (front ejects back)[...]

What nonsense. There is NO need to modify the Hawk command ejection system. Proper passenger briefs for every trip are, however, essential.

Passengers were flown in the Gnat for years before the Hawk entered service and there was never any issue - it didn't have any form of command eject system.

Lordflasheart, do you have any military fast-jet experience?

[ahwalk01]

Stall warning would be nice tbf

[Mogwi]

Stall warning would be nice tbf

It’s called buffet, Blogs!

Mog

[Bob Viking]

What nonsense. There is NO need to modify the Hawk command ejection system. Proper passenger briefs for every trip are, however, essential.

Passengers were flown in the Gnat for years before the Hawk entered service and there was never any issue - it didn't have any form of command ejection system.

I apologise in advance if you think I pick on you but, if it makes you feel any better, I only disagree with you when I think you’re wrong about something.

The attitudes to risk in the post war era were very different from today. The early marks of Meteor had no ejection seats. Then the Air Ministry reached a point where the numerous deaths of pilots became too much to bear and technology moved on to the point where ejection seats were possible and became standard fit.

In this day and age one preventable death is seen as one too many. There’s a very high probability that Jon Bayliss would still be alive today if the command ejection system worked both ways in the Hawk T1. A modification is possible and I’m frankly amazed it hasn’t been insisted upon in order to continue passenger flying by the Red Arrows.

The fact that the Gnat didn’t have such a system is not a great reason to pretend we can’t do better in our current fleets.

Many Martin Baker equipped aircraft have selectable systems. I think it’s high time the Hawk did as well. But don’t blame the manufacturers. Blame the operators.

BV

[Lordflasheart]

Dear Beagle
...
Lordflasheart, do you have any military fast-jet experience?

Does it matter ? I read the book ... ***

Proper passenger briefs for every trip are, however, essential.

Proper pax brief didn't save Corporal Bayliss - except the SI revealed his familiarisation training was short-changed. Front to rear command eject might have given him half a chance regardless of what was ever said. A repeat could be prevented either by modifying the existing command eject (most unlikely to happen) or by prohibiting back seat pax and finding another way to transport the Circus engineers to and from their landaways. Not as if it is an occasional jolly that could be overlooked. It certainly isn't operationally necessary to regularly expose service personnel to an easily avoidable non-operational risk.

I'm sorry if this is starting to sound like ZD576 but MoD and RAF probably know what will happen if there is a further occurrence.

That risk might have been considered an acceptable part of service life in ye olden days of ye Gnatte. I don't know if the Circus travelled in the backseat then, but ISTR the Reds - usually/often/sometimes - got Transport Command to cart the backup stuff around in ye olden days.

LFH

*** A Noble Anger by David Hill.

[BEagle]

Prohibiting practising simulated emergency procedures whilst carrying passengers should be the first step towards risk reduction.

[Krystal n chips]

Dear Beagle
...


Does it matter ? I read the book ... ***



Proper pax brief didn't save Corporal Bayliss - except the SI revealed his familiarisation training was short-changed. Front to rear command eject might have given him half a chance regardless of what was ever said. A repeat could be prevented either by modifying the existing command eject (most unlikely to happen) or by prohibiting back seat pax and finding another way to transport the Circus engineers to and from their landaways. Not as if it is an occasional jolly that could be overlooked. It certainly isn't operationally necessary to regularly expose service personnel to an easily avoidable non-operational risk.

I'm sorry if this is starting to sound like ZD576 but MoD and RAF probably know what will happen if there is a further occurrence.

That risk might have been considered an acceptable part of service life in ye olden days of ye Gnatte. I don't know if the Circus travelled in the backseat then, but ISTR the Reds - usually/often/sometimes - got Transport Command to cart the backup stuff around in ye olden days.

LFH

*** A Noble Anger by David Hill.

The Circus most certainly did carry backseaters, for the same reason as today, in ye olden days.

[Bob Viking]

Prohibiting practising simulated emergency procedures whilst carrying passengers should be the first step towards risk reduction.

I don’t disagree with you on this point. As far as I remember PEFATOs were not permitted with passengers on any other units. But then other units allowed for their pilots to practice their currencies more readily. At least they used to anyway.

I actually think it was a little strange that RAFAT needed Circus members to come with them on a regular cross-country flight such as a simulator ride. It would have made more sense to travel dual with an even number of pilot thereby minimising the number of assets used. One flight each way could have been dedicated to each pilots CT allowance. Whilst I understand the utility and requirement for Circus members on display trips I can assure you that the turnaround procedure for a Hawk T1 is a 20-30 minute job at worst and could easily have been accomplished by two pilots. It would also mean the PEFATO in which Jon Bayliss died could have been practised legitimately with another pilot present who could have spotted the impending disaster.

I should also point out that PEFATOs in the Hawk are neither especially challenging or dangerous when flown properly and within the appropriate guidelines and rules. There is ample time for a go-around decision.

None of this changes my view that the command ejection system can and should be updated if the Hawk T1 is to remain in service for a good few years yet.

I will also lay my cards on the table and comment on the main thrust of this thread by saying that I also believe the Reds have run their course. I agree with those that suggest it paints a disingenuous picture of an Air Force that is awash with spare capacity. And the recent bad publicity is not a good look.

BV

[Ridger]

I don't think I've agreed more with anything. Ever.

[Icare9]

As a civvy watchng airshows, the Reds seem to have lost their leading edge performances.
There's little use in "recruiting" if we can't train 'em when they do want to join the RAF...
Why use an aircraft that's no longer in production or development?
Could we replace one if lost?
It's almost a faded and jaded remnant of Empire, trying to project an image of a "fighting force" we can't live up to.
Sorry, 60 is plenty...they need to go out on a high, put those bad press reasons behind them and fade into the sunset.
What the UK military no needs are small punching above their weight hardware, be it vehicles, weaponry aircraft or ships.
The carriers seem a laughing stock and perhaps too valuable for the UK to "risk" getting anywhere near the Houthis, let alone a proper army/navy/air enemy

[Krystal n chips]

As a civvy watchng airshows, the Reds seem to have lost their leading edge performances.
There's little use in "recruiting" if we can't train 'em when they do want to join the RAF...
Why use an aircraft that's no longer in production or development?
Could we replace one if lost?
It's almost a faded and jaded remnant of Empire, trying to project an image of a "fighting force" we can't live up to.
Sorry, 60 is plenty...they need to go out on a high, put those bad press reasons behind them and fade into the sunset.
What the UK military no needs are small punching above their weight hardware, be it vehicles, weaponry aircraft or ships.
The carriers seem a laughing stock and perhaps too valuable for the UK to "risk" getting anywhere near the Houthis, let alone a proper army/navy/air enemy

Correct, and this would be the perfect year.

However, the "public outrage ", doubtless led by certain rags, would, for a while at least, become a crescendo of noise. Hence, being British, a fudge would be called for.

How about they are reduced to a five ship, then, just like the Army / horses / 18th century regalia etc, trotted out for fly pasts on ceremonial occasions ....pretty red / white / blue smoke,, public goes "aaaw ! ", Reds"remain" albeit with a much reduced profile

[Expatrick]

Correct, and this would be the perfect year.

However, the "public outrage ", doubtless led by certain rags, would, for a while at least, become a crescendo of noise. Hence, being British, a fudge would be called for.

How about they are reduced to a five ship, then, just like the Army / horses / 18th century regalia etc, trotted out for fly pasts on ceremonial occasions ....pretty red / white / blue smoke,, public goes "aaaw ! ", Reds"remain" albeit with a much reduced profile

Red, white & blue only needs a 3 ship!

[charliegolf]

Correct, and this would be the perfect year.

However, the "public outrage ", doubtless led by certain rags, would, for a while at least, become a crescendo of noise. Hence, being British, a fudge would be called for.


Paint up some Typhoons, train up some 'Top Guns', and sell it as being high time we were displaying front line aircraft not trainers.

CG

[ancientaviator62]

As we did during my time as groundcrew on 92 (Blue Diamonds). We also held a full Fighter Command commitment and participated in all the exercises etc.Is there any real evidence to support the recruitment statements ? I do not recall being mentioned during my time on 92, but it was a long time ago.

[mahogany bob]

Surely someone’s got to support them so here goes:

The Red Arrows are undeniably the pinnacle of what high performance teamwork is all about; they represent death defying precision, speed and spectacle and when out of the cockpit; inspiration, humility and honesty. It is therefore little wonder that in their British built aircraft (The BAE manufactured Hawk), they also form part of the United Kingdom’s International PR Team, helping to generate billions of pounds in overseas trade every year.

pity about the ‘out of the cockpit ‘ bit - but surely that has been ‘sorted’ !

[ancientaviator62]

mb,
where is the evidence that they help to contribute billions to the UK economy ? I assume that when on overseas 'sales' tours they are funded for this by a sponsor
When we did a Red Arrows support to the FE via the Middle East we were told Bae were paying the bill. I assume once back in the UK mod picks up the tab.

[superplum]

Paint up some Typhoons, train up some 'Top Guns', and sell it as being high time we were displaying front line aircraft not trainers.

CG

Pity they "junked" the Typhoon two-seaters then!

[langleybaston]

mb,
where is the evidence that they help to contribute billions to the UK economy ? I assume that when on overseas 'sales' tours they are funded for this by a sponsor
When we did a Red Arrows support to the FE via the Middle East we were told Bae were paying the bill. I assume once back in the UK mod picks up the tab.

I am very dubious about any net benefit these days. Where are the bean-counters when you need them?

[DogTailRed2]

People might appreciate the Red Arrows more if they ever got to see their full display, or at least the full displays they used to give.
In the 90's (yes, that is a long time ago) watching the `Reds` at an airshow when the weather was good had a brilliant high component with high altitude formations culminating in some very beautiful formation bursts. When combined with their mid, and low level components it made for a very nice long display. More often than not these days you just seem to get the mid and low, or sometimes it appears just the low component.
Is there a reason for this or am I mistaken?

[SLXOwft]

I felt old when I read today that the Red Pelicans finished in 1973 - I recall a brief childhood encounter with a courteous gentleman pilot on his way to his JP at a Woodford Airshow..

Last year was the 70th anniversary year of the Patrouille de France who appear to be soldiering on with the Armée de l'air et de l'espace's remaining Alphajets rumours of a switch to a PC-21 team notwithstanding. The Frecce Tricolori are still supposed to be receiving the M-345 to replace their M-339s. Is it just we are and are governed buy a bunch of grumpy, miserly s*ds?

I must say the RKOAF Black Eagles looked very smart when the flew over my part of Hampshire in 2022. The Hawk T-1s are positively youthful compared with the Snowbirds' mounts, the Tutor having finished as an active RCAF trainer in 2000.

Just some idle thoughts. I do think if the funds had been found replacement by tranche 1 Typhoons with a secondary AD role (presumably coupled with a smaller display calendar) would have made sense.(they could have reactivated 79 Squadron and painted red arrows down grey fuselages :E)

[Diff Tail Shim]

Prohibiting practising simulated emergency procedures whilst carrying passengers should be the first step towards risk reduction.
Not the first time training objectives overiding common sense has caused loss of life. Will not be the last.

[Diff Tail Shim]

We need a new advanced trainer, so please the next government get the useless BAES to do a replacement. Oh, pulled out of the TX programme so not a chance. I am for keeping the Reds as they still excite our kids. The ones we need to join up.and be the engineers and pilots.

[beamer]

After forty years plus flying the same type of aircraft……time for a change methinks !

[VM325]

Sidmouth and now Rhyl have cancelled this years airshows, both citing the lack of RAFAT availability due to them departing for Canada at the end of July.

Make of that what you will, but they organisers obviously think they are the main draw...

Both shows say they will be back in 2025.

[OvertHawk]

We need a new advanced trainer, so please the next government get the useless BAES to do a replacement. Oh, pulled out of the TX programme so not a chance. I am for keeping the Reds as they still excite our kids. The ones we need to join up.and be the engineers and pilots.

I think you might excite them more by giving them decent houses to live in with their families and reassuring them that if they join up as Pilots then there is a reasonable chance that they will actually be trained as pilots within a reasonable period of time rather than spending half their RAF careers doing pointless holding jobs.

[621andy]

Looks like the Patrouille Suisse are on the way out too... https://www.flugrevue.de/militaer/harter-sparkurs-auch-keine-axalp-2025-schweizer-armee-sagt-airspirit-24-ab-und-noch-mehr/

Also the Belgian F-16 Viper solo team is no more...https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.europeanairshows.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fth e-end-of-the-belgian-f-16-solo-display%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1Luj3qYa-tOQhYx_orF255WisVmtoOGLtG7xW21Q-c9szK8iWgi9tGK0c&h=AT3jeejt1aJbHfrE06i01X2-Kw4sLvhyYpunibHFLgZESgiK7dnRS24Vk6l7Lrn-Sj612eBKW5h6Bc-9lK8xkAmxPCt3uqvbTAHeQRUrx2Px9HFrnpwpZUXJlR0RoWxCo1--QH4&__tn__=%2CmH-R&c[0]=AT33c_mDyzpOoGT3EcH_mTOkcP7cTmXYpS_dea_TFcxQC0_OaOUC4yPLogi uCnjM-q_L8cjHxSzZ_rnfVafAikmFu5ba1th9INHzDWO2FZD9l24jSGTYAoB1iGs2f Q1LwQceuDYNPBgbHXHEvR9NiEBAlK7rzG4kRgD4Rk93ptYeUmep1FM2WBmib dIpC5vXsg343oGzTYiu

[Maxibon]

How about a UAV aerobatic team - the Grim Reapers....;)

[Diff Tail Shim]

I think you might excite them more by giving them decent houses to live in with their families and reassuring them that if they join up as Pilots then there is a reasonable chance that they will actually be trained as pilots within a reasonable period of time rather than spending half their RAF careers doing pointless holding jobs.
I concur with your assessment on the fact that the MFTS is screwed and it is ridiculous that pilot training is not seamless like the old days. I do personally know one of the Reds and his flying career has been blighted by holding posts and gaps between flying tours. Accommodation as well that is well below sub standard.

[ancientaviator62]

If the rationale for the 'Reds' is UK recruiting for the RAF then why are they going to Canada ? It cannot be to showcase the Hawk surely. Who is funding this trip ?

[LogDog]

If the rationale for the 'Reds' is UK recruiting for the RAF then why are they going to Canada ? It cannot be to showcase the Hawk surely. Who is funding this trip ?
RCAF 100th anniversary, but no idea who is funding it. Its not like the CAF are flush with defence spending.