USMC CH-53E Missing - 6 Feb 24

[RAFEngO74to09]

Statement from 3rd MAW

"The U.S. Marine Corps is searching for five U.S. Marines assigned to Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 361, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing. The Marines were flying a CH-53E Super Stallion helicopter from Creech Air Force Base to Marine Corps Air Station Miramar on Feb. 6, 2024, when the aircraft was reported overdue. The 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing is coordinating search and rescue efforts with the San Diego County Sheriff’s Department and the Civil Air Patrol. The most up-to-date information will be released as it becomes available."

The search is now being concentrated in the Laguna Mountains, CA

[SLXOwft]

Update:
The aircraft was located by civil authorities in Pine Valley, California at 0908 PST 07 February 2024. Search and rescue operations are ongoing co-ordinated by 3 MAW Ops Command Center 'using ground and aviation assets to locate the crew'.

[gums]

Salute!

Maybe Wolf could contribute here, as I thot the larest H-53 series had great nav gear and radar for flying in poor weather.
Although he flew ASW, best I recall, we also have another rotorhead or two that might comment. One of which flew the monster in 'nam same time as me.
My thots are a mechanical problem, then running outta a good place to set down. OTOH cannor rule out cfit.

Gums sends...

[JohnDixson]

Received this from a friend in TX earlier today-was a local Fox News source:

“First responders are continuing to search for the aircrew, according to the U.S. Marine Corps.

"The U.S. Marine Corps is searching for five U.S. Marines assigned to Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 361, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing," Marine Corps Air Station Miramar said in a statement Thursday. "The Marines were flying a CH-53E Super Stallion helicopter from Creech Air Force Base to Marine Corps Air Station Miramar on Feb. 6, 2024, when the aircraft was reported overdue.”

The original Es had a pretty basic cockpit/nav setup. No idea if they have been upgraded.

[206Fan]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/351533

[SpazSinbad]

...The original Es had a pretty basic cockpit/nav setup. No idea if they have been upgraded.
Recent story 07 Feb 2024 about potential upgrade to CH-53E instruments: https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/Super-Stallion-Mission-Data-Team-breaks-new-ground-aviation/Tue-02062024-1232

Photo: "The Mission Data Extender (MDE) is a fully integrated, hard-mounted commercial off-the-shelf tablet which functions as a primary mission display in the CH-53E Super Stallion helicopter cockpit." https://www.navair.navy.mil/sites/g/files/jejdrs536/files/styles/crop_16_9/public/tablet.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1209x680/ch_53e_tablet_b10ae8e4ff1953ce92f4e6f23b5160e27ab21f28.jpg

[Lonewolf_50]

Salute!
Maybe Wolf could contribute here, as I thot the larest H-53 series had great nav gear and radar for flying in poor weather.
Not so sure about a radar. Wasn't standard equipment on a 53E. It began as a troop hauler, a cargo hauler, and the MH-53E was a mine warfare helicopter.
John Dixson can tell you better than I can about details. Based on his experience he's substantially more familiar with the CH-53E than I.
The 53E has blade anti ice, and has standard IFR capability. (Yes, it appears to still have steam gages).(I have never seen the K's cockpit, but I suspect it's glass).
The 53E should be able to handle bad weather.
My thots are a mechanical problem, then running outta a good place to set down. OTOH cannor rule out cfit. . If they were flying over the mountains in bad weather, that by itself can create some challenges depending on the altitude. Lots of things can go wrong.

[RAFEngO74to09]

RIP

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GF0PI5uWAAAloGb?format=jpg&name=large

[JohnDixson]

Not as familiar with the 53E s you might think, LW-the 53E started test flights in early 74 and the UTTAS ( UH-60 ) kicked off in the Fall of that year and absorbed all of my time. I just attempted to phone the retired 53E Project Test Pilot unsuccessfully but in my recollection, the E didn’t have blade de-ice to start with and I cannot recollect a subsequent blade de-ice redesign/flight test qualification afterwards. Haven’t heard anything about blade de-ice testing on the 53K either, but I’ll cross-check on that.. They both have engine and inlet anti-ice systems of course.
Condolences and prayers for the families of the HMH-361 crew.

[Jack Carson]

The H-53/SK-65 aircraft were not equipped with main or tail rotor de-ice. The engine engine air particle separators (EAPS) negates any effectiveness of engine de-ice.

[gums]

Salute!

Yeah, Jack, those "filters" would seem to ice up themselves, and as Lonewolf pointed out, just the mountains present conditions that are a problem. I don't think they were very high but escorting a wounded Jolly outta N Vee he had trouble with a ridge ahead as he was on one good engine, and reduced power on the other having extinguished the fire. Most folks don't realize that much of VietNam is not miles and miles of flooded rice paddies, but beautiful mountains, valleys and rivers that resemble those in Arkansas, north Georgia, etc.

It's just that I would have thot they would have some of the stuff that our Pave Low birds had 30 years ago. And I don't mind the steam gauges too much.

RIP.

Gums sends...

[sandiego89]

It may be worth noting that at the time of last contact, around 1130pm Tuesday night the area was being hit by a "river storm" bringing heavy wind, rain and snow at higher elevations, up to 8 inches of driving snow around the incident site near Pine Valley. Night in heavy snow, wind, terrain and likely on goggles. Can't imagine Miramar crews getting much snow flying experience.

Bless the families.

[JohnDixson]

Sandie, the other aspect that came to mind was re to Lone Wolf’s observation that the E is an IFR capable ship flying qualities-wise is fine. But as you are intimating ( possibly ) if they could not scud-run, transitioning to an IFR clearance might bring rotor icing into consideration?

[NutLoose]

Someone operated a distress beacon, or do they carry automatic ones? RIP guys.

The last known contact with the helicopter was at about 11:30 p.m. Tuesday, Mike Cornette of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection told CBS 8 news. That location was based on a "ping" reported to a Cal Fire dispatch center.

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1229812205/marine-corps-helicopter-missing-found-san-diego

[Lonewolf_50]

The H-53/SK-65 aircraft were not equipped with main or tail rotor de-ice. The engine air particle separators (EAPS) negates any effectiveness of engine de-ice. Thanks Jack, my "used to work for SIK" buddy seems may have recalled incorrectly. (Maybe the K has it?)

EDIT: Just talked to Gunny B.
He was crew chief on E's until about 2015. 22 years in the USMC. From his memory:
53D's didn't have de-ice.
53E's had them on the main rotor blades (his service goes back to the 90's), but (and this struck me as odd) initially they didn't have them on the tail blades.
While he was in, however, there was an airframes change that added De-Ice to the tail rotor blades.
I wonder if the original 53E's didn't have it, and a later AFC added that.
It may be that someone at NAVAIR decided that since the Seahawks had it, the 53e's should too.
No idea, I am guessing there.

The system was also, in Gunny's time, plagued with problems similar to what I recall being the issues in Seahawk. They often spot tied the circuit breakers out (off) to keep the electrons from doing bad things to the blades / heating blankets / wiring harnesses, etc.

He also recalled a near miss where a 53E, West Coast, apparently flew into icing, iced up, and got into some serious controllability problems.
Descent out of icing / clouds (and a little luck, apparently) got them to better air and they got home...he wasn't on that crew, but it was his wing where it happened.
Sandie, the other aspect that came to mind was re to Lone Wolf’s observation that the E is an IFR capable ship flying qualities-wise is fine. But as you are intimating ( possibly ) if they could not scud-run, transitioning to an IFR clearance might bring rotor icing into consideration? When I first flew Seahawks, AIRPAC had the deice harnesses removed for a while due to how often they were shorting out and forcing blade changes. (IIRC, slip rings and corrosion contributed to that). So we stayed out of icing conditions as an SOP. If the 53E does not have anti ice in the MRB and Tail, then an inadvertent flight into icing conditions could cause some problems. (EDIT: or, if they have it but it isn't working, same problem ...)

[JohnDixson]

Been awhile since getting a weather brief at a USAF Base-will there be a record of the brief given to this USMC crew?

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GF3gPFvXwAAP4TD?format=jpg&name=large

[malabo]

Civilian here, some questions on why it took a while to find.

No ADSB? Thought it was mandatory around San Diego. No ELT? No Sat tracking (everything I fly corporate or commercial has sat tracking)? Even an iPad with Foreflight would have given them plenty of warning they were about to eat dirt, maybe not sanctioned but who wouldn't throw one in their bag?

Flown IFR lots in winter, icing is pretty rare - tips run warm, and usually you climb out of rain, through a sleet layer into snow. Nothing sticking to the blades.

Robust aircraft, trained crew, I'm a little surprised at the discussion on weather that I wouldn't have thought would be a factor.

[SpazSinbad]

Civilian here, some questions on why it took a while to find. No ADSB?
07 Feb 2024: https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/budget-policy-operations/downed-usmc-ch-53e-helicopter-located-california-five
"...Crews found the aircraft near the town of Pine Valley, California, near where it went missing, according to its ADS-B track...."

[Lonewolf_50]

Civilian here, some questions on why it took a while to find.. The crash happened In the mountains during a snow storm.
From the weather descriptions available, about 8 inches of snow fell during that timeframe.
Flown IFR lots in winter, icing is pretty rare - tips run warm, and usually you climb out of rain, through a sleet layer into snow. Nothing sticking to the blades. I had the chance to fly in icing conditions a couple of decades ago, in a Blackhawk, but the blade de-ice worked.
Interestingly, when we landed we were reminded that the horizontal stab does not have de-ice blankets. There was still a nice thick layer of snow / ice on the horizontal stab when we did our post flght.
I find it odd that you think that ice will not accumulate on a rotor blade. (If you don't think that, sorry, that's how it came off in your post).

[SLXOwft]

I think this covers it with out me saying anything:

Statement from 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Commanding General
The 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing continues to prioritize the recovery of our fallen warriors and focus on supporting the families of Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 361 in the wake of this tragic mishap. As you are aware, the five Marines aboard the CH-53E were confirmed deceased at the crash site. Casualty Assistance Calls Officers notified each Marine's next-of-kin the evening of February 7th and morning of February 8th in person.
Our fallen warriors' fellow Marines have remained by their side - as Marines do - taking shifts throughout the night at the mishap site, keeping watch over them, despite the hazardous weather conditions. Our fallen Marines were - and continue to be - guarded by their brothers and sisters.
Since the early hours of February 7th, numerous Marine Corps, federal, state, and local agencies have been involved in locating the crash site and the recovery of our Marines. Despite the challenging weather conditions, both ground and air options were pursued, to include San Diego County Sheriff's aircraft, Marine Corps fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft, U.S. Border Patrol unmanned aircraft, Civil Air Patrol equipment and personnel, and Marine Corps ground units specially trained in aircraft mishap recovery operations. Today, we shifted our focus to the professional recovery of the remains of our fallen.
This entire effort is possible through the tremendous assistance of numerous agencies including the San Diego County Sheriff's Department, the Civil Air Patrol, the U.S. Border Patrol, the U.S. Forest Service, the State of California Department of Forest and Fire Protection, the California Highway Patrol, the United States Coast Guard, and many others. The 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing is incredibly grateful to all the men and women who have supported our efforts to this point. We are in awe of your sacrifice, teamwork, and genuine sympathy and empathy.
We look forward to continuing to work with many of these agencies as we bring our Marines home and then turn our attention to the investigative process. This tragic mishap will be thoroughly investigated to identify the causes, learn from them, and take action to reduce future mishaps.
We remain Semper Fidelis - Always Faithful - to our Marines and their families. The Marine Corps will continue to honor the memory of our fallen warriors and ensure our #1 focus is on supporting their families through the difficult days ahead
-Maj. Gen. Michael J. Borgschulte Commanding General, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing

[tdracer]

It may be worth noting that at the time of last contact, around 1130pm Tuesday night the area was being hit by a "river storm" bringing heavy wind, rain and snow at higher elevations, up to 8 inches of driving snow around the incident site near Pine Valley. Night in heavy snow, wind, terrain and likely on goggles. Can't imagine Miramar crews getting much snow flying experience.

Bless the families.
The term the weather geeks use is "Atmospheric River" - a somewhat new term, I'm more used to them calling them "Pineapple Express" (so named because the weather systems generally form in the tropic latitudes near Hawaii). They usually hit the coast further north in the Oregon/Washington/British Columbia region so were rather used to them around here - for some reason there have been a series of them hitting further south in California the last month (good news - if any - is that they need the rain).
Given this system was bad enough that the Weather Service had advised people to 'stay home - essential travel only', I'm a bit surprised the military was flying in those conditions (especially if, as previously posted, the helo lacked anti-icing capabilities). I know they need to be able to function/fight in all weather conditions, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
RIP to those lost.

[CaptCFI]

I am a retired fixed wing ATP and live in San Diego County, not far from the crash site. The weather that night was not good, low clouds, mountain obscuration with snow and sleet. There were also several heavy cells embedded along with scattered TS. San Diego earlier in the day had a tornado warning, which is almost unheard of here. The nearest weather reporting station is Mount Laguna approx 5 miles north east of the crash site at 5,500ft. The report that evening around the time of the accident was:-
Feb 6, 10:52 pm Temp 30F Dew Point 30F Humidity 100 Wind Chill 23F SW @ 7 G18

[SASless]

I am going to ask that dreaded question....."Why?".

Why was that crew flying in that weather?

Why could that flight not wait for better weather?

Why did the Operations Officer sign off on the Flight Clearance?

Why was the flight done at night?

Why in peace time would one conduct flight operations at night over that kind of terrain in that kind of weather?

Five Good Men gone....why?

[RAFEngO74to09]

The flight originated from Creech AFB, NV - which is a UAV control facility / support base and diversion airfield for Nellis Test & Training Range. There is no accommodation there.

We may find it was a classic case of "press-on-itis" rather than stay overnight at Nellis AFB just 47 miles away by road.

[SASless]

Ever hear of a small town called Las Vegas (aka Lost Wages), Nevada?

[BEagle]

The flight originated from Creech AFB, NV - which is a UAV control facility / support base and diversion airfield for Nellis Test & Training Range. There is no accommodation there.

No accommodation? Surely Marine warfighters could 'improvise, adapt and overcome' such a minor inconvenience?

RIP the fallen.

[henra]

No accommodation? Surely Marine warfighters could 'improvise, adapt and overcome' such a minor inconvenience?

Although we still don't know if it was really weather- driven accident (chances are probably high though) this may still be a case of can-do-itis (expert crew in a massive ship) on top of press-on-itis. Sadly way easier to fall into this trap than we as human are ready to admit to ourselves. That's where (Senior) Leadership would have to come into the equation.

On another note: Am I assuming right that the CH-53E doesn't have a weather radar or a radar that can easily be used and is being trained as such?

[JohnDixson]

Henra, the production machines did not.

[rolfkap]

I was driving down US 95 on Friday and three other CH-53s were still sitting on the ramp at Creech. I wonder why only one was flying home.

[JimEli]

Civilian here, some questions on why it took a while to find.
...
Flown IFR lots in winter, icing is pretty rare - tips run warm, and usually you climb out of rain, through a sleet layer into snow. Nothing sticking to the blades.
...


I find this statement incredulous.

30+ years in H-60 with blade deice and anti-icing equipment. Flew SPIFR EMS in the US Pacific NW. I recall a particular IFR flight out of Phoenix on a January day when we accumulated ice so quickly on climb out that we couldn´t maintain straight and level flight. And that was with blade deice on and working.